Beyond Skyrim: Development Server

Hannes821 07-Jul-17 03:41 AM

Hello colleagues! maybe we should start using this now

(edited)

Joseph Crowell 07-Jul-17 04:53 AM

hola!

Hayden 07-Jul-17 07:09 AM

This is cool

Bellatrix 07-Jul-17 08:25 AM

Should we lock the chat on the other server and switch to just this one? I thought forum and discord was confusing enough but forum and two discords is more than my tiny mind can cope with:)

Larrian (Morrowind) 07-Jul-17 08:26 AM

That chat is for Project Leads, if that one goes then I'll not be able to be part of any discussion involving any other Project Leads, due to me not being a Council Member, but still being a Project Lead

Unless we change this one to Project Lead Chat

Bellatrix 07-Jul-17 08:30 AM

It says council chat?

Larrian (Morrowind) 07-Jul-17 08:30 AM

Bellatrix 07-Jul-17 08:30 AM

Yeah so is it council chat or project lead chat?

Larrian (Morrowind) 07-Jul-17 08:31 AM

I'll change it to the latter for now

Bellatrix 07-Jul-17 08:31 AM

Told you it was more than my tiny mind can cope with:)

Larrian (Morrowind) 07-Jul-17 08:31 AM

Fixed

Now I don't have to kick myself out!

Hannes821 07-Jul-17 11:29 AM

cool. Tascani is Atmora, not Elsweyr

how did that happen, lol

i will ask him

a thank you

for changing

he is the technical director, lead for implementation

and i guess has most experience of us Atmorans (edited)

but he likes to focus on his work

Joseph Crowell 07-Jul-17 04:16 PM

here's an archive of the other one https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/276913126144999424/332993249553678336/archive-project_lead_chat_00.log

Joseph Crowell 07-Jul-17 08:11 PM

@glsimson

Hannes821 08-Jul-17 05:35 AM

maybe, just to avoid confusion, we should use the same name like on the old server ?

or was it the plan to have more people in here than only council? i would agree to that

Joseph Crowell 08-Jul-17 05:36 AM

Larrian wouldbn't be included in council voting (edited)

but is allowed here

Hannes821 08-Jul-17 05:37 AM

ah okay. so, basically its an "extended council" and that applies for our 3rd lead and other 3rd leads as well

Joseph Crowell 08-Jul-17 05:37 AM

it's because they already have the limit of 3 council seats

yep pretty much

Hannes821 08-Jul-17 05:38 AM

but decisions here are not council decisions, its more informal to make an opinion?

like, a briefing room for us ^^

Joseph Crowell 08-Jul-17 05:38 AM

right it's just a place to discuss

3

Hannes821 08-Jul-17 07:00 AM

alright !

Joseph Crowell 09-Jul-17 05:44 AM

!help

Valkyrja BOT 09-Jul-17 05:44 AM

Please refer to the website documentation for the full list of features and commands: http://botwinder.info/docs (I've PMed you the Custom Commands for this server.)

Hannes821 09-Jul-17 09:04 AM

!help

Valkyrja BOT 09-Jul-17 09:04 AM

Please refer to the website documentation for the full list of features and commands: http://botwinder.info/docs (I've PMed you the Custom Commands for this server.)

Rubaedo 12-Jul-17 11:37 AM

So, there's been some back and forth discussion about reaching out to Tyroine (https://www.youtube.com/user/ReporterDeMinefield) as a potential person to work on official trailers for us. Obviously we don't... really have a nice clean pan-Tamriel PR department for him to slip into, but I felt like it might be a subject worth broaching, at the very least so it's in the back of everyone's mind.

Hannes821 12-Jul-17 05:07 PM

we should vote on the PR leadership. 9 people voted, and its already a few days, so shouldnt that allow a decision in the next 2 weeks? -> so he can be integrated in some sort of structure, and there is no confusion

Kelretu 12-Jul-17 05:08 PM

i didn't know there was a vote going on

Hannes821 12-Jul-17 05:08 PM

let me link you

Kelretu 12-Jul-17 05:08 PM

still am not up to date with all

Hannes821 12-Jul-17 05:08 PM

how was the exam ? i hope good

sure, i tell you

Kelretu 12-Jul-17 05:08 PM

exams are still ahead, hausarbeit was horrible

Hannes821 12-Jul-17 05:09 PM

whoa poor

okay, so 1) only rob or 3) rob and camonna tong as pr leads 1) has 6 votes and 3) has 3 votes. now we discuss to get an opinion together and wait for the missing council people to voice

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/11539-overhauling-the-pr-department/

also, there is / was an ongoing conversation about an updated charter, but i think thats not urgent: https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/11441-framing-the-ruling/

i think that is the most important things now on the council, anyone may correct me if i forgot something that requires immediate attention

wish you the best

Joseph Crowell 14-Jul-17 10:15 AM

@Larrian (Morrowind)

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Jul-17 10:15 AM

oh

Okay

oops

saturnus 14-Jul-17 01:27 PM

An announcement concerning the leadership of Black Marsh: https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/11738-promotion-of-larrian-to-black-marsh-co-lead/

Joseph Crowell 14-Jul-17 01:27 PM

yay

Kelretu 14-Jul-17 01:27 PM

congrats @Larrian (Morrowind)

Joseph Crowell 14-Jul-17 01:28 PM

btw on the server you can only have one province role

so it's either Black Marsh or Morrowind not both @Rubaedo

Rubaedo 14-Jul-17 01:28 PM

Noooooooooooooo

Joseph Crowell 14-Jul-17 01:29 PM

I know I know

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Jul-17 01:29 PM

Might stick with Morrowind for now

Until BM picks up

Kelretu 14-Jul-17 01:29 PM

hard decisions are daily life here :D

Rubaedo 14-Jul-17 01:29 PM

Fuck, I'll go Morrowind for now then. It's more immediately relevant.

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Jul-17 01:29 PM

I have the exact same role on both projects

Just one has a council seat the other doesn;t

*doesn't

saturnus 14-Jul-17 01:29 PM

Congrats Larrian

Joseph Crowell 14-Jul-17 01:30 PM

@Larrian (Morrowind) you should be listed as Black Marsh

saturnus 14-Jul-17 01:30 PM

I won't take it personally if you keep Morrowind in your name

Joseph Crowell 14-Jul-17 01:30 PM

since it gives you the council seat

Rubaedo 14-Jul-17 01:30 PM

^

saturnus 14-Jul-17 01:30 PM

fair point

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Jul-17 01:31 PM

I mean yeah, but at the same time, I'm more immediately relevant on Morrowind as it is, Black Marsh isn't doing much at the moment.

Kelretu 14-Jul-17 01:31 PM

i think it may confuse people regardless

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Jul-17 01:31 PM

Exactly

Kelretu 14-Jul-17 01:31 PM

maybe have both in your name but only one color

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Jul-17 01:31 PM

And I'm doing much more for MW currently, as is Ennie

Joseph Crowell 14-Jul-17 01:32 PM

that list looks kinda lopsided though

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Jul-17 01:32 PM

Ennie and I should probably change our nicknames to Morrowind and Black Marsh

But keep purple

Joseph Crowell 14-Jul-17 01:33 PM

agreed

Kelretu 14-Jul-17 01:33 PM

i'm not entirely sure how the BM color is called anyway

Joseph Crowell 14-Jul-17 01:33 PM

although the text is so long you can't read it

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Jul-17 01:33 PM

wait

Why

Kelretu 14-Jul-17 01:33 PM

yeah, but you can when they type in chat

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Jul-17 01:33 PM

That's Meglos

Joseph Crowell 14-Jul-17 01:33 PM

ah in the chat you cna

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Jul-17 01:34 PM

Not me

Fuck

Still

Gonna be too long

Joseph Crowell 14-Jul-17 01:34 PM

try that

Kelretu 14-Jul-17 01:34 PM

how about Larry (Morrowind/BlackMarsh) ? :D

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Jul-17 01:35 PM

Larry

I'm really torn atm

Because I have the exact same role on both Provinces, but BM gives me a council position... but I do way more on Morrowind currently, and will be doing more on Morrowind for a long time until Black Marsh picks up again....

Yeah that works actually

@Joseph Crowell

I have both ticked but with the Morrowind colour

Joseph Crowell 14-Jul-17 01:40 PM

sweet

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Jul-17 01:40 PM

With BM colour

Hannes821 14-Jul-17 03:20 PM

congratulations @Larrian (Morrowind) and good luck with BM! Let me know if i somehow can support you!

i once collected some ressource permissions for Akavir

maybe there is something useful as concept or i can contact the authors for you

Rubaedo 14-Jul-17 04:03 PM

Oh jeez. If you want to do akavir, I have some opinions.

1

Hannes821 14-Jul-17 07:26 PM

lets do atmora and BS Tamriel first

Larrian (Morrowind) 16-Jul-17 03:58 AM

I need some advice

We have a member on the team whose work is quite mediocre. His landscaping stuff leaves much to be desired and he's something of an ehh individual (edited)

I have no idea what to do

Because it's the only claimable area and we have a much more talented landscaper who can do it

Plus I need to make some manual heightmap changes in the region

Kelretu 16-Jul-17 04:00 AM

did you tell him all of your points in a private message?

Larrian (Morrowind) 16-Jul-17 04:00 AM

I give him most advice in PM

And I've been trying to train him up some but he's not very cooperative and he's very slow

And I sadly don't have enough time to do that and everything else

Kelretu 16-Jul-17 04:03 AM

have you talked to him about working on a different area for said reasons?

Larrian (Morrowind) 16-Jul-17 04:03 AM

We have no other regions right now, that I can think of

We require more environmental assets for the majority of the map

So I have the other more talented landscaper on standby

While this one does the only available claim

Kelretu 16-Jul-17 04:06 AM

how about habing the one who is currently working on the claim work on something BS unrelated to improve his skills?

Larrian (Morrowind) 16-Jul-17 04:07 AM

I don't think he'd take that well

But it's a good time to do it because... well... I'm changing up the heightmap in the region anyway

Joseph Crowell 16-Jul-17 04:09 AM

sometimes people just don't fit because of personal issues

1

I'm having a similar issue right now in IB because of a bad writer that one of my department leads recruited without asking the writing department first (edited)

the director no longer recruits in areas that he isn't responsible for without asking first

but it's still made a bit of a mess

Bellatrix 16-Jul-17 04:14 AM

Could be worse, you could have Markus constantly trying to make your mod out to be a disaster (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 16-Jul-17 04:14 AM

Hah!

You've released one, we haven't

Joseph Crowell 16-Jul-17 04:15 AM

stange behavior isn't it

(edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 16-Jul-17 04:15 AM

cries silently

Kelretu 16-Jul-17 04:16 AM

bruma release took a toll on everybody

Bellatrix 16-Jul-17 04:16 AM

Really strange. I don't know what we can do about it either cos overall he's an asset but he's absolutely wrecking mmorale on Cyrodiil at the moment. Lasur is pretty close to quitting because he's finding it all so stressfull

Kelretu 16-Jul-17 04:16 AM

i think we all need for things to calm down

and then take a break

Bellatrix 16-Jul-17 04:16 AM

If you guys could politely ask Markus to stop it I'd be really grateful

Kelretu 16-Jul-17 04:17 AM

not sure what's up with him recently, he changed a bit

Bellatrix 16-Jul-17 04:17 AM

like not all pile in, but if you see him doing it trying to cut it off would help

Larrian (Morrowind) 16-Jul-17 04:17 AM

Yeah I was in voice for ages with Linton today and he's incredibly drained

And really quite demotivated

Bellatrix 16-Jul-17 04:19 AM

yeah. I think he'd frightened of having his work out in public because people might not like it but it's manifesting in some quite unpleasant behaviour - and having a knock on effect with lasur and other people - one of our amazing new recruits from the beta who's done a ton of patching had to log off slack yesterday because of it. And we can't afford to loose her or Lasur and half the new recruits probably wonder what they've signed up for etc (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 16-Jul-17 04:21 AM

The negative comments are like 1/1000 positive comments, but they sadly stick out so much moe

*more

The vast majority love Bruma

Bellatrix 16-Jul-17 04:22 AM

only for some people. The release has gone pretty much exactly how I thought it would. I mean we could have done without loosing all the scripts on day one but that's not a mistake we'll make again. Overall I'm super excited about the release and reception. Well I would be if I wasn't knackered :0

Larrian (Morrowind) 16-Jul-17 04:22 AM

Oh yeah things went pretty smoothly on the whole. I think it affects some members more than others

Hannes821 16-Jul-17 05:00 AM

sometimes, internal measures are necessary. i guess, 1) mention the issue, give advice 2) warn, in agreement with other leads / department lead 3) if nothing helps, kick. its just a question of "fairness" when you do what. but the interests of the project cannot stand behind those of individuals; and if the case is clear, and there is general agreement over it, then sometimes it must happen.

but thats just what i think myself, its your team and your management

luckily, this actually nearly never becomes necessary. maybe 1 of 200 people

Larrian (Morrowind) 16-Jul-17 05:03 AM

Yeah it's very rarely an issue

But when it is it sucks

Bellatrix 16-Jul-17 05:20 AM

I have some worksheets that might help with how to have that conversation

http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/resources/infopax.cfm?Info_ID=51

Joseph Crowell 16-Jul-17 05:26 AM

I am assetive about it though

but then members of my team seem to get upset about me being assertive about it like that's the wrong thing to do

it's very strange. I've never had that problem outside of the modding community

Bellatrix 16-Jul-17 05:32 AM

I'm not great at this, but there are 3 behaviours: passive, assertive and aggressive. What you want is assertive rather than passive or aggressive. One problem is in text communication where you loose facial and bodily cues it's easy for a response to be interpreted as aggressive rather than assertive. Not sure if it's that but think how many massive dramas we've had over practically nothing

Joseph Crowell 16-Jul-17 05:33 AM

true

Kelretu 16-Jul-17 05:33 AM

we should use more voice chat

Bellatrix 16-Jul-17 05:33 AM

It's a common phenomenon though - look how toxic practically all comment boards are. BS is actually really chilled compared to most newspaper websites etc

This is also where influencing styles can help - basically any push influencing styles don't work in this kind of environment and will always get interpreted as aggressive rather than assertive http://ctrtraining.co.uk/documents/Handout-PushMePullYouApproachestoInfluencingandPersuading.pdf

It's blooming hard work this good communication stuff

Joseph Crowell 16-Jul-17 05:36 AM

so the only option is passive in this environment?

Bellatrix 16-Jul-17 05:43 AM

no

it's assertive but using pull influencing styles only

well I mean everyone can do what they like but that's the mix that works best and minimises drama

Not that I manage it that often. It's hard work!

Joseph Crowell 16-Jul-17 06:18 AM

hmm

I'm guessing the use of pull techniques is covered in what you sent?

Bellatrix 16-Jul-17 06:20 AM

yeah. the second link

Hannes821 16-Jul-17 07:04 AM

simply, define aims before giving out claims. even writers shouldnt be let free to dream away in their fantasies, they also need a vision and a framework to produce usable content. Inside that frame however, artistic freedom. but is the frame several times violated, it must be stated clearly

1shoedpunk 16-Jul-17 04:20 PM

Do we have the server rules posted somewhere around here?

1

Joseph Crowell 16-Jul-17 08:44 PM

For this server?

It's a private one but I guess we can post some up

1

Hannes821 23-Jul-17 05:05 PM

@Larrian (Morrowind) suggested me last week to change our name to fit better into our community. We all agree that this is beneficial. BS: EtA -> BS: Atmora: Expedition to the North if an admin has a minute, we would be happy if he / she could change the BS forum title; I didnt have permission. thanks, and i hope you like this decision

Bellatrix 24-Jul-17 11:14 AM

I like it:)

If no one alters it, you can PM Xae and ask him to do it.

1

Hannes821 24-Jul-17 05:03 PM

i changed it in our old forum and the discord, and wrote a message to xae

Joseph Crowell 24-Jul-17 10:36 PM

http://beyondskyrim.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/AtmoraLogo-277x300.png

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 02:37 PM

Thras is trying to add Kettlewitch back on to the team leads

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/11808-thras-leadership-change/

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 02:45 PM

thank you for the logo

ehm, its the old one ?

ah i got it, i will change that

hmm

so, there was a decision against dave in the past, is that right?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 02:49 PM

there was a decision to permanently ban Dave from the council

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 02:49 PM

wow okay, and it was proven and all? and can i read it?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 02:49 PM

and it was a point of contention when Thras was starting up

that they would only be allowed to start if they understood Dave was not to be a team lead

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/10770-proposal-thras-the-coral-kingdom/

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 02:57 PM

"We've been discussing the leader count. It seems quite high considering this is such a small project. If you were to lower that down to 2 or maybe even 1 leaders who would that be?"

^ Does that mean Thras has 2 votes?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 02:57 PM

Yeah we didn't say it straight to them looks like in that thread

because they understood quickly that the problem was Dave and removed him from the list

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 02:59 PM

To be honest, now I can really see an issue with unanimous vote.

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:00 PM

actually it was Dave that made the problem with unanimous vote glaringly obvious

we were unable to make a decision on anything because he would downvote anything benefeiting Cyrodiil as a matter fo course

and the discussion about it was on the project lead Skype

I'm waiting for the leads that have been here long enough to experience him as one of us to chime in

although I'm just now realizing that list of leads is really short (edited)

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:11 PM

could we agree on some things as council? like, a general guideline for how many seats a project has according to its size; and like, either have decisions with a 80% majority (if it is about a province, that province must agree) OR we really consider putting all cards on the table, forgive each other and talk nicely about everything; so we can really take decisions before months pass.... even on small things that have no negative consequences, like that PR team constitution. I have yet to see any point against this, and i have to say, i dont even care if (1) or (3), i just want to get people active and working

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:13 PM

the PR team has been formed and functioning under their initial guidelines for over a year

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:13 PM

aha. well, i didnt notice that work.

at least i was expecting some trailers and some newsletters or what

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:13 PM

that's because there was none

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:14 PM

so, how could we improve that situation?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:14 PM

not by having a vote about leads

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:15 PM

i thought that this was the reason there is no recruitment and activity

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:15 PM

no

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:15 PM

that the PR leads or lead or whatever or responsible person has no executive direction at all

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:15 PM

that's false

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:15 PM

ok,

well i was applying for joining there a long time, or even seeing their forum, nothing really happened

when do they hire people?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:16 PM

they don't even look at hiring people

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:16 PM

when do they plan new PR stratgies?

well thats what i want to achieve

^^

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:16 PM

Rob is acting lead now

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:17 PM

As soon as the vote is concluded I plan to implement a number of PR strategies

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:17 PM

why don't you implement them now

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:17 PM

With all leads being aware first of course

I have no real mandate

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:17 PM

there is nothing stopping you

and hasn't been anything for a year

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:18 PM

Yes, because until we started this discussion I was not aware that I had the power to do so

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:18 PM

okay cool. so you are basically already lead there, and have the power to do your job?

so we just missed good communication here?

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:18 PM

Yes

But I would still like to be made a lead

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:19 PM

It is all a bit confusing with this whole federal system

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:19 PM

Otherwise it looks odd

Hi, I'm Rob the acting sort of lead of the PR dept

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:19 PM

well, that was the most productive 5 mins ever

in this chatroom, topic closed?

maybe get a formal agreement or what?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:19 PM

there were supposed to be no council seats assigned with the PR department

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:19 PM

I am not after a council seat

I have one

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:20 PM

you can say there is no council seat, but he is still lead, does that sound good?

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:20 PM

I can't use two

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:20 PM

so we have a compromise, no seat, but a lead

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:20 PM

that's the only difference between what you ahve now and would have after a vote

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:20 PM

good that we talked about it, guys ^^

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:20 PM

Well, it is up to the whole council

Not just the three of us

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:20 PM

true true, sorry

but effectively, even after the vote, he has only one voice

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:21 PM

Yes

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:21 PM

and if another senior lead would follow rob later, then this situation would endure

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:21 PM

why are we voting for it if it doesn't change anything

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:21 PM

in theory

he wants the formal legitimation

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:21 PM

Is there a list of competences of what the PR team can do in form of advertising provinces and what the individual teams?

1

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:21 PM

And the council can debate whether PR needs a council seat after a lead is appointed

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:21 PM

yeah

it's in the PR charter

1

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:22 PM

Link?

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:22 PM

could we link it? yes

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:22 PM

We have a PR charter?!

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:22 PM

I know! I am the sort of kind of lead

I had no idea

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:23 PM

I dare to say that there are communication issues at BS!

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:23 PM

I wonder if we have a finished province no one knows about?

LOL

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:23 PM

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/10056-proposal-forming-a-media-department/

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:23 PM

If there was, no one would know about it

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:24 PM

slightly. but we are busy. we need to work on it, right?

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:24 PM

Yes

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:25 PM

ah I hate these forums

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:25 PM

is there a document form?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:25 PM

so difficult to find anything

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:25 PM

(maybe i am blind)

yes

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:26 PM

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/10976-changes-to-the-pr-department/

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/11539-overhauling-the-pr-department/

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:26 PM

i found it

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:26 PM

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/10568-publicity-department-permissions/

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:27 PM

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/10388-publicity-dept-charter/

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:27 PM

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/8958-kettlewitch-stepping-down-from-hammerfell/

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:27 PM

see, i think we need like a book shelf with our constitution

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:27 PM

Wow, so many links!

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:27 PM

why all those links, didnt we just want the PR now ^^

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:27 PM

We were talking about Dave earlier I believe

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:28 PM

ah because yes

i get it now, sorry i am not the fastest ^^

1

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:28 PM

Thanks @Joseph Crowell

2

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:28 PM

No sweetroll D:

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:28 PM

stoopid bot where's my sweetroll

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 03:28 PM

I know! What is that all about

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:29 PM

so, based on that charter, we can formally now vote for rob or rob+camonna; and then if there is a council seat or not is another topic; But he can basically start working ?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:29 PM

yeah he can start going

regardless of that vote

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:29 PM

Is cammona on vacation? haven't heard from him in a week or so

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:31 PM

dunno

might have given up trying to help at this point but I doubt it

I haven't heard anything

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:32 PM

camonna is there

we talked yesterday

he also joined the server (as i invite everybody to talk with us)

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:33 PM

it's pretty difficult trying to lift everyone up and help them while everyone is scurrying around behind your back using every good action you take to paint you as a villain

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:33 PM

i know you are pretty busy

but we must have the basic rules and methods transparent

so everybody can access it at any time

i really think we should store our basic guidelines all at one place

most issues grow here out of confusion

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:34 PM

you mean the charter

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:34 PM

and the PR charter

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:34 PM

I'll put it up on the website

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:34 PM

good.

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:34 PM

or on the wiki

the private dev one

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Jul-17 03:35 PM

Yeah that's probably better

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:35 PM

because while it's good to make it accessible to all members, it isn't necessarily cool to make it part of the public website

1

I dunno

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Jul-17 03:35 PM

I agree

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:36 PM

okay, and now a charter-related question. do all teams usually have leads? or are there other examples for teams without seat? because, we should vote for rob formally (his mandat) and then after that, decide together if the council needs a seat of the pr lead. rob said he doesnt need it, and i honestly dont care for that...

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:36 PM

can someone put it up there?

I'm getting ready for work

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:36 PM

ah its mornin in australia rigth

here its close to midnight

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:36 PM

all teams usually have leads

small province teams are limited to 2 council seats

like Thras or Roscrea

note Roscrea isn't currently using it's second seat

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:37 PM

we also only use 2 seats, but thats totally fine

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:37 PM

I think a seat for the PR team is reasonable.

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:37 PM

yes, these seats are overrated

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:37 PM

yeah

they really don't give people much

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:38 PM

Yeah, AU and AF currently also use just one seat

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:38 PM

what they take are massive amounts of time

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:39 PM

But as we discussed earlier, if you change the unanimous vote to a lesser percentage, you need more people at some point

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:39 PM

at this point we already have about 1/4 of the active BS community on the council

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:40 PM

Yeah, but I don't think that to be too much of an issue

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Jul-17 03:40 PM

We should probably keep a tally somewhere with the number of seats each province/group has and how many of those are filled

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:40 PM

Yeah

I think we are around 18 at the moment (edited)

The maximum being 28

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Jul-17 03:41 PM

Like Cyr could have 3 people on the council but currently only have 2, right?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:41 PM

yeah

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:41 PM

Yeah, only MW and IB have three I think.

And two of IB's are in other Provinces as well.

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:41 PM

and back years ago a member was only allowed to be a lead in one province

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Jul-17 03:42 PM

Same with one of MW's

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:42 PM

then an exception was made for Deeza in High Rock and Hammerfell (edited)

but he was only to be caretaker lead of Hammerfell

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Jul-17 03:42 PM

I think it works much better with several leads, tbh

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:42 PM

to try to get it going again then pass it off to the new leads

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:43 PM

Really depends, I think the way the core membership in IB works is good too

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:44 PM

oh yeah all of your department leads should be promoted to core

on the forums

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:44 PM

I asked Sage for most questions anyway even if he wasn't lead.

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:44 PM

this gives them the ability to recruit

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:45 PM

it depends on how many active people you have, 1 or 2 per province are the best; and the council itself needs at least 10 active people, but less than 20 would be good i think. bascially i am doing these organisatorical things alone, it works too, but other provinces might require more people

whatever, back to the topic

one seat for the PR seems reasonable but not essential to me ^^

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:45 PM

We've discussed a bit in the IB chat earlier.

About that even if you had 28 people, you only have around 40-60% voting

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Jul-17 03:46 PM

What we've done in Morrowind is split things up into different spheres for each team lead, like artistic, creative and technical, which is working really well for us so far

1

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:46 PM

yeah I'm technical in IB

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:46 PM

same here, but only me as management dude being here active

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:46 PM

Isn't that what the department directors are for ?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:47 PM

which makes sense obviously

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:47 PM

And then the leads as overarching?

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Jul-17 03:47 PM

Department directors are more for specific things, like 2D art, 3D art, music, implementation, etc

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:47 PM

yes its kind of a mixed hierarchy

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:47 PM

think of it is overarching spheres of responsibility

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:47 PM

but sometimes its good if decisions are discussed in the top of the team, and not taken alone

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:47 PM

Yeah

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:47 PM

for coordinating with the dept leads

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:48 PM

That's why we have the staff channel for core members, dept directors and leads.

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:49 PM

okay, so can we get a short range of opinions? is there a good reason against a seat for the PR, yes or no? maybe thats the most efficient way to get this done with and proceed with our jobs

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:49 PM

the way team leads make up the team is up to them

who they have as dept leads etc

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:50 PM

I don't think there is a good reason against it. The PR team has interests as well they want to represent.

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:50 PM

I don't think there is a good reason for it

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:50 PM

Melodias? you raised concerns?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:51 PM

it makes no difference to the functioning of the PR dept

and only serves to give a dept a council seat (edited)

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:51 PM

usually, if every team has some sort of representation, this would be the analogy, from a systematical point of view

thats for it

dept?

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:51 PM

Well, the seat theoretically determines if they even can take part in discussions.

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:52 PM

if its not rob anymore

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:52 PM

and the way we agreed to structure the council, they were to consider themselves suborinate to the council and the teams

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:52 PM

yes, we can write that down

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:52 PM

which is why they weren't given leads

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:52 PM

having a seat, taking part in the conversation, doesnt mean to rule it rightaway

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:53 PM

Yeah, for the moment it doesn't matter because Rob is lead of a team anyway, but I think in any case, the PR team leads should be able to take at least part in council discussions. (edited)

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:53 PM

so you would include that many people to internal conversations?

hmm

including 1 or maybe 2 persons, i could understand

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:54 PM

Uhm, how many PR team leads are there?

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:54 PM

but rob planned to organize it with a flatter hierarchy (and i am happy about it)

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:54 PM

Ah okay

In that case

one person

1

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:54 PM

basically every member of the PR dept would be a dept lead under Rob's proposal (edited)

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:55 PM

It is to represent the interests in the discussion, that should come unanimously from the PR team anyway

(like the Bundesrat) :D

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:55 PM

nah, if he takes recruitment seriously, there will be more. But the point is, if he treads them as leads internally in his team; That does never mean they are all automatically in the council

i would second kel, only 1

(rob)

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:56 PM

I was thinking the US senate

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:56 PM

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:56 PM

Yeah, but I'm less familiar with that one.

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:56 PM

inside the pr team, it makes sense, you know, because that way the provinces have a strong influence on the pr as well

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:57 PM

my problem is that Camonna was treated as some sort of villain and barred from the voting under false pretenses (edited)

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:57 PM

? okay.

well i talked to camonna, he wants to work with rob and they will get along fine.

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 03:57 PM

I haven't had the chance to keep up with everything, so no idea about that.

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:57 PM

but he should have been included in the conversation

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 03:58 PM

@Bellatrix was spreading around that he had done Cyrodiil wrong during the promotion and launch

while 1shoedpunk repeatedly said that wasn't true (edited)

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 03:59 PM

ah now that you say it. but you know how it goes. most things are rumors and concerns. and taking far reaching decisions, even concerns become important points...

well, there was an argument about that facts, but the facts themselfs have not been visible,

so that remained unsovled for people like me who know nothing about it

camonna was very nice when i talked to him

i guess it was rumors, i dont know

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:01 PM

well since it was Rich (1shoedpunk) and Lasur who were actually coordinating with him and Rich investigated and said (on our forum thread you've been talking in) that Camonna had done nothing wrong

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:01 PM

okay, that changes a bit the weight of his voice ofc

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:01 PM

1shoedpunk is the main lead of Cyrodiil

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:02 PM

so, lets say he is right, i also remember that rob said he wouldnt care much if he is lead with camonna or work with him

for the PR decision

well, its about putting them on same level formally or only informally to be frank ^^

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:02 PM

he founded the cyrodiil team and has been there for 5 years

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:02 PM

wow, thats an achievement

i think, the rumors should be proven, or not anymore considered then.

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:03 PM

Deeza has probably been around the longest hasn't he?

Yeah, if somebody makes accusations against someone there needs to be reasonable ground for at least valid concern.

1

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:04 PM

Deeza helped found Beyond Skyrim

shortly before Skyrim was released

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:05 PM

Did he work on TR?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:05 PM

yeah

he's been modding since Morrowind

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:05 PM

Damn, and I was only 14 when Skyrim released.

1

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:05 PM

and trying to make mega expansion mods like this

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:06 PM

Btw did somebody make minutes of the points we were talking about here?

Would be good for people who missed the discussion.

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:07 PM

i can try to summarize

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:07 PM

In another month no one would remember the minutes existed if we had

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:07 PM

Well, we can pin them

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:07 PM

well i think there had been some imporatant infos

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:13 PM

time for work

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:13 PM

1) PR team lead right now is @Robcbwilson with full authority to start working, respecting the PR charter https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/10388-publicity-dept-charter/ and respecting the directions about what content can be released by the teams. 2) the vote on the council for overhauling the PR is a formal one to choose if rob will stay sole lead or work with camonna on the same level; 3) the issue if there should be a (1) council seat or not for the PR team is not solved; but it seems reasonable 4) other PR team members must not get access to internal council discussions as that seat would represent them in analogy to other teams. 5) Rob and Camonna have both stated they are eager to team up and work with each other, regardless of the PR decision in the council chambers, and rob is planning flat hierarchies and treating a group of peoples inside his team like equals to boost the output of cooperation. 6) the BS charter is now pinned for members on the website (edited)

is that correcnt?

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:13 PM

that's pretty strong @Joseph Crowell

I still stand by finding Cammona hard to work with during the launch

and you haven't got me on side by phrasing it like that

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:14 PM

I don't think I would get you on side for any reason

you seem to have a personal vendetta

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:15 PM

Pinned a message.

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:15 PM

calm, it might be missunderstanding and missinterpreting each other

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:15 PM

I am calm. I said why I had reservations and apparently now I have a personal vendetta.

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:15 PM

hmmm

okay, well yes, maybe it was hard working with him. if we would follow this to the end, we would have to compare each sentence you said; and find out that you mean it wasnt easy to communicate with camonna, whilst melodias may have understood you outright want to get rid of him for less accurate reasons (whatever that might be=

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:17 PM

do you have any chat logs or proof showing he was being difficult to work with

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:17 PM

yes

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:17 PM

because it's pretty out of character for him

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:17 PM

To be fair, I'd probably have some reservations as well because of some stories I have heard from other members.

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:17 PM

but it depends on how you define difficult

I didn't have as much control over what was happening as I'm used to when dealing with the PR dept

stuff was happening that I didn't know about and bug reports were coming via Camonna rather than him directing the high profile people to me or 1shoe

hence myreservations

you were in the same chat Joe (edited)

usually when I get a video or faceboo comment posted I have complete control and I didn't feel like I did for the release

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:19 PM

the one where he was informing you that people were sending bug reports to him?

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:19 PM

yes

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:19 PM

he was their poc

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:20 PM

whats a poc?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:20 PM

and he was relaying the info to you

point of contact

1

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:20 PM

yes and I asked him to put us in touch but it didn't happen

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:21 PM

hmm okay, these things with misscommunication will happen in an international hobby community... but it would be good to get a statement that he just didnt do this on purpose and will from now on be more careful, and it should be fine for the future?

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:21 PM

I'm not sure how that helps?

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:22 PM

well, i am sorry to say, but up to a certain point i believe we have to try

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:22 PM

my issue was that I didn't feel in control. I don't think it was deliberate but I'd feel happier with just Rob as the PR lead.

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:22 PM

i think we cannot afford to throw away people after the first offense

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:22 PM

especially if they've been acting in pr for longer than you've been a member

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:23 PM

i can understand the concerns, especially PR needs a strong communication skill

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:23 PM

and this is the first time anyone has had a problem with him

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:23 PM

so, yes, its better to settle that issue on a lower level i believe

from my talking with camonna, he was very reasonable

but it is ofc a concern funded on a experience you made

its not made up rumors

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:24 PM

yes it is and I'm not enjoying being steamrollered

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:24 PM

i get that, nobody does

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:24 PM

"especially if they've been acting in pr for longer than you've been a member"

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 04:24 PM

We musn't do that (steamrollering)

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:24 PM

yes, it as a unhappy way to say that ^^

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 04:24 PM

It is not nice, or clever

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:25 PM

but he didnt mean it ... i think, so ... we actually talked about a few very important things here

and we had finally some progress

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 04:25 PM

I would like to address one point that was made

About my "leadership team"

This is not a team of leads

It is a team of people in the PR team that will have senior roles and / or act as representatives of the provinces

But they are not leads

They will not be seeking seats on the Council

Whether there is a seat on the Council for the PR Lead is not my concern

I just want a functioning team doing awesome PR work

1

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:30 PM

That's the spirit!

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 04:30 PM

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:35 PM

So where do we go from here. I feel like I'm being guilt tripped into changing my vote but actually option 1 has more votes so it's not just me and I'm really not enjoying the tone and accusations of vendetta.

And if everyone agrees option 3 is the best way forward I will change but I still do have reservations.

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 04:36 PM

I also don't understand why we are being pushed when option 1 had more votes

That doesn't seem very democratic to me

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:36 PM

Vote is vote.

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 04:37 PM

1 gets 7 votes and 3 gets 5 votes

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:37 PM

We can change them though - it often happens with the votes. There's debates then it becomes unanimous.

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:37 PM

We need to decide unanimously right?

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:37 PM

Yep

Robcbwilson 25-Jul-17 04:37 PM

Well, I also don't see the need to change my vote from 1

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:38 PM

I think the best way forward is that the minority states there reasoning and we have a debate.

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:38 PM

Department leads are people in the team that have senior roles and I said department leads

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:39 PM

Yeah, I think the term lead can be confusing, that's why I try to use director. (Though that is also confusing)

1

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:39 PM

It was 6/6 until hannes changed his vote

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:40 PM

Council member?

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:40 PM

me what?

no

@Joseph Crowell you didnt really check the thread

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:40 PM

I thought you voted 3 and changed your vote

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:40 PM

Yeah, guess that works now. But before Larrian was lead, but not council member.

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:41 PM

yes. so first it was 3 people against 7 or so

then i changed for majority

i stated my reasoning

then bellatrix changed

and anathem voted for you

(3=

so it became 5

so the moment when i changed my opinion, it was because i want to get a decision done

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:42 PM

It's still the tightest vote we've ever had (edited)

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:42 PM

eventhough it doesnt mean anything in reality

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:42 PM

Voting phase is over right? (edited)

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:42 PM

No

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:43 PM

wasnt there that 2 weeks rule?

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:43 PM

Yes but that assumes the vote is unanimous.

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:43 PM

So I can still cast my vote?

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:43 PM

And this is about as far from it as it gets:)

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:44 PM

We can't move forward without a full 100% vote for one side or the other

So even me being persuaded to change my vote wouldn't help (edited)

And in this case we don't even have a clear majority

2 votes one way or the other is the closest we have ever been on voting

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:46 PM

Well, that happens.

Ask the Brexit people.

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:47 PM

Also I'm on my phone now so please be patient with the autocorrect

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 04:47 PM

Please don't go there. It's too embarrassing:) (edited)

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:48 PM

He also couldn't give out their contact info btw without their permission (edited)

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:49 PM

But yeah, I don't know if it would be good for me to chip in and throw another vote in the pool.

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:49 PM

I'm pretty sure he asked and was told no

They trust him

Wow

Does everyone see my messages repeated a lot

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:51 PM

Yeah

That's what happens to Deeza all the time.

Related to some connection issues most likely.

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:52 PM

Yeah signal strength is low

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:52 PM

they trust him? you talk about camonna?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:52 PM

Yeah his media contacts

They trust him with their contact info

And he can't just give it out

He did invite them to discord though

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:53 PM

well he was the first to talk with gopher, but handnt in a while. but he seems to be able to do video things and rob can do other things

but its a useless topic, they will work together anyways

so the contacts have nothing to do with the formal leader position thee

*there

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:54 PM

Yeah, nobody denies that he is a valuable PR member.

1

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:54 PM

There contacts were the problem @Bellatrix had

She wants them and he couldn't just give them out so she felt she didn't have control

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:55 PM

But I personally think that choice 1) would be best, because that way Rob has free hand to organize the PR team.

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:55 PM

wasnt it about the bug reports or the right of last sight before releasing?

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:55 PM

Having two leads can delay a lot of stuff.

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:55 PM

I think leave it as is for now and don't vote a lead in is the best option

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:55 PM

and its really a small team as well

smaller than AF and AU likely

hahah how is that even an option?

"ah i cant decide so i dont decide on anything at all"

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:56 PM

Well the official AU team is two members

1

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:57 PM

Because if it's just Rob it changes nothing (edited)

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:57 PM

okay PR is bigger then

well, obviously, mel, there is a public interest in the council and the community to get this done the formal way it should be done

and not between the lines

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:57 PM

There only difference is a voting council seat

Ah repeating myself

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:58 PM

okay, so we split that topic, how about it?

we dont decide over that seat now?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:58 PM

The lead position is a council position

Read the form threads

He was already chosen as acting lead

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 04:59 PM

this means, according to what you said (rob is the lead) that he DOES ALREADY HAVE A COUNCIL SEAT

(only for PR)

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 04:59 PM

Yeah, I'm with hannes

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 04:59 PM

A year ago

HE WAS ALREADY CHOSEN AS ACTING LEAD A YEAR AGO

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:00 PM

so he has a seat

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:00 PM

no

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:00 PM

and the whole debate is meaningless

" a lead position is a council position" are we bending the rules?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:00 PM

Exactly voting for a lead position on the council is meaningless

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:01 PM

didnt that happen all the time (when you remove people ?)

or does it inside the team?

either way, we discuss the teams setup in general

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 05:01 PM

I thought we were just deciding for who is officially in charge of the PR team? (edited)

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:01 PM

Read the forum threads carefully

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:01 PM

hmm yes its these 2 problems

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:01 PM

Where we created the pr department (edited)

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:02 PM

1) rob or both 2) PR seat or not

and problem 2 is definitely something to be voted about

in the council

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:02 PM

Rob is officially in charge of the pr department and has been for a year

But it was explicitly decided that lead position on the pr department would not come with a council seat

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:03 PM

oh okay, let me check that

if that decision is still valid, then ofc you would be right

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:04 PM

I am

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 05:04 PM

"With all leads being aware first of course I have no real mandate"

so rob's concern is that the rest of the PR team doesn't officially recognize him as lead? (edited)

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:04 PM

saying it doesnt convince me, i would like to read he decision ^^

its not about your credibility, its about understanding facts ^^

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:05 PM

That may be because jaberkaty didn't make him pr Dept lead on the forums

And bard placed himself as a lead on the pr discord

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 05:06 PM

So this was an organizational mistake and this whole vote was obsolete?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:06 PM

Yep

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:06 PM

that would be an offense

see, this is a big struggle due to missing communicatuon

*communication

so this should be adressed as soon as possible

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:06 PM

It has all been there the whole time on the forums

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:07 PM

yes, but eventhough your right, if no one can follow you, it makes no difference....

you might say, we should read it all

but its simply not realistic

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:07 PM

I just kept saying the same thing over and over for several months

I'm so glad people are finally understanding what I'm saying

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:08 PM

hmmm. i need to watch out more what i read

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:08 PM

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:10 PM

you have the next communication struggle ahead of you

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:10 PM

So now that you understand... The only thing that the pr department would get it off this vote is a council seat

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:10 PM

okay

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/11808-thras-leadership-change/

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 05:10 PM

The vote thread really doesn't read like that.

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:10 PM

Which we founded their department not wanting them to have

It's split off in to 4 or 5 threads

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:11 PM

so, will there be steps taken now in discord and the BS forum to implement Rob ?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:12 PM

Someone needs to give to his proper rights in the forums

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 05:12 PM

It starts with this

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:12 PM

If he doesn't have them and I still don't think he does or he would be able to recruit

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 05:12 PM

So I'm confused as to what the past month has been about.

1

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:12 PM

Or maybe he doesn't know how

I told you all of this at the start Claire

A month ago

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 05:13 PM

Okay, sorry that I have to bother about Thras. But how many seats do they have now? 2?

or 3?

That is confusing me and the charter doesn't say anything on that point. (edited)

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:14 PM

2

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 05:15 PM

Ah okay, it would be nice to have something like that written down as well. (edited)

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:15 PM

Yeah over 5 years we have voted in the council chambers and made rules and not added then to the charter (edited)

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 05:15 PM

Yeah, I think that is also a reason why a lot confusion is happening. A lot of leads are fairly new.

1

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:16 PM

Yes a massive amount

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 05:16 PM

And if it is only written on the forums it is easily missed.

1

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:16 PM

And some have come in making up rules of their own without discussing it first

Recently

When xae did that forum update it made a mess of things (edited)

Or forum links between threads broke for existing posts (edited)

Anything written in German turned in to garbled gibberish

Kelretu 25-Jul-17 05:19 PM

Yeah, I saw that.

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:20 PM

And the multi page thing with 20 threads on the same subject didn't help

We linked to 5 threads about the pr department starting above

And we can all edit them at will and change what they say

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:24 PM

maybe merging threads in subforums and lock them as archieve?

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:33 PM

We can all edit locked threads

We can change the charter on the forums

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:34 PM

thats not good

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:35 PM

We can change the post that lays out how the pr department is supposed to operate

There is no guarantee of continuity other than backing it up somewhere else and checking if the original was modified (edited)

We can change what someone else said during a vote

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 05:37 PM

I think I have that as a google doc so it will be obvious if it's been edited.

I can post the link if I can find it in the morning. If not we could cut and paste it and make it into a google doc.

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:38 PM

Ok

Bellatrix 25-Jul-17 05:39 PM

I mean it'll be full of edits cos I can't spell but you can track changes on it so would be able to spot any revisions:)

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:42 PM

Yeah you can track changes on Google docs

1

And trust that the thing someone said isn't modified in the discussion section

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:43 PM

like in a wiki...

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:43 PM

On here you can only delete someone's message (edited)

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 05:43 PM

-> internal wiki ^^

Joseph Crowell 25-Jul-17 05:43 PM

You can't modify it

Yes @Hannes821

1

Hannes821 25-Jul-17 06:40 PM

think we should bring the charter there; and then its also easier to put the new draft below and discuss together

Joseph Crowell 26-Jul-17 04:26 AM

right

Bellatrix 26-Jul-17 01:52 PM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wlY16XQIZHdtP1s9kSQYYvx5jeBjGp580oqEQtRpZLU/edit?usp=sharing

PR Department Charter

The purpose of the Beyond Skyrim PR department it to act as a project-wide resource to help with individual Provinces PR needs. Individual provinces retain the ultimate editorial rights to all their content and the PR department has no right to publish content without the express permission of ...

1

Robcbwilson 26-Jul-17 02:36 PM

Thanks @Bellatrix

Bellatrix 26-Jul-17 02:49 PM

This is the post on the forum that was voted on but the google doc is where I originally wrote it. https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/10388-publicity-dept-charter/#comment-277276

Robcbwilson 26-Jul-17 02:49 PM

The charter sounds eminently fair to me

Bellatrix 26-Jul-17 02:50 PM

Errrm we already voted on it last year? I am so confused.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:00 AM

I was just voting to put in some leads that would be active and build the project

didn't realize Rob didn't know he was a lead?

@Robcbwilson was that why you thought you couldn't do things?

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 06:03 AM

Correct! I was asked to come in and get the November video moving

But then when I started to plan more PR things I was told (incorrectly it now transpires) that this was not in scope for the team

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:04 AM

Katy was given lead on the forums and was supposed to give it to you I think

did that happen?

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 06:04 AM

So I backed off

No. I am not a Lead, just a member I think

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:06 AM

hm

but you have admin access on the discord right

so you can add people there

add a logo etc

?

yeah

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 06:07 AM

I have admin for Morrowind but not anywhere else (as far as I am aware)

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:07 AM

nah you do on the PD discord

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 06:08 AM

OK cool!

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:34 AM

I'm messaging Xae

@Deeza (Iliac Bay) can fix it too I think (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:34 AM

Congrats Rob!

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:37 AM

I'm still not sure that Katy should still be lead there though tbh

is there a reason she's been so inactive in it?

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:39 AM

I feel like the PR department needs a Discord logo

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:40 AM

yep

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:40 AM

Maybe we can follow the Public/Private theme

And like

Give a background colour

And change the logo colour

Or something

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:40 AM

agreed

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:40 AM

Not sure what'd look good though

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 06:40 AM

Grey.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:41 AM

Oooooh

But what about the logo itself

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:41 AM

pink

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 06:41 AM

49 other shades of grey.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:42 AM

ha!

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 06:42 AM

Nah, no idea honestly. But I think the grey background would be in the middle between dev black and public white.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:42 AM

Yeah I like it!

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:43 AM

maybe a brighter yellow for hte logo

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 06:43 AM

Or white.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:43 AM

Joe do you have that transparent logo somewhere?

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:43 AM

it's on my main pc

I'm in hte living room atm watching a movie with Discord on overlay

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:43 AM

Alrighty

Something silvery like this?

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 06:44 AM

Yeah, think that works.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:44 AM

Also someone needs to give me the Project Lead role on the PR server

Nice :P

Also holy shit does BS:Morrowind need a new logo

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 06:45 AM

Yeah I need the role too.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:46 AM

so does anathem

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:46 AM

Who's in charge of the roles n shit?

I feel like that server is kinda half-arsed at the moment, it needs more channels and it needs roles and bots etc. sorted

Half-arsed is the wrong term

Unfinished

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:47 AM

@Robcbwilson

you should be able to assign roles

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:48 AM

Might wanna add some more channels as well, Rob

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:48 AM

Bard is owner of that Discord I think

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:48 AM

oh

....why?

If he is he needs to transfer ownership to whoever is in charge of the PR department

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:48 AM

should be Rob

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:48 AM

Yes it should be Rob

It isn't hard to transfer ownership either

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:49 AM

yeah I gave Kelretu ownership in the AU earlier

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:49 AM

Nice!

But yeah I hope Bard doesn't like

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 06:49 AM

Can have my pink color now.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:49 AM

Refuse to give me Province Role

I'm kinda sick of that tension :/

Anyone have any ideas for what MW's logo could be?

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:53 AM

I looked at a lot of stuff

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:54 AM

Oh?

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:55 AM

this broken some how

makes the most sense to me

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:55 AM

Ooooooooh

I do feel like that might be a bit close to Skywind's logo though

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 06:56 AM

I actually like the idea of the current logo.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:56 AM

actually turning the star in to a firect overhead view of a volcano

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 06:56 AM

And yes, it could cause confusion. (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:56 AM

It doesn't make much sense though

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:56 AM

?

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:56 AM

The current logo

The current logo is just the tribunal triangle with the imperial dragon in the middle of it

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:57 AM

yeah

spectral took it and colored it green and called it a day

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 06:57 AM

Of course he did

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 06:58 AM

let me work up something

an idea just came ot my head finally

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:06 AM

Ooooooh

Why is Bard listed as Marketing Lead here?

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:08 AM

Because he is. Our use of lead is super confusing.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:09 AM

It should be Director for the lead of a Province or Department

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:09 AM

As far as I know, Rob is the overall lead and then there's a team including bard, Markus, Katie and now Cammona who are leads but not the lead.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:09 AM

Like PR or AU

Okay so I'd split into two roles

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:09 AM

Yeah I find it confusing.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:09 AM

Director and Lead

Director at the top Lead down the bottom

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:09 AM

should be director

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:09 AM

We should use numbers instead.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:10 AM

can I be 69?

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:10 AM

I find the expectations around team lead = council member confusing too:)

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:10 AM

"We are number 1."

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:10 AM

Yeah I think it should be Director tbh

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:10 AM

But I'm a bear of very little brain.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:10 AM

And then Leads are non council members

That's the way MW and BM does it

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:10 AM

IB leads are council members, Directors are for the departments.

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:10 AM

But that's confusing for cyrodiil cos we use lead and director interchangeably. Good communication is basically impossible in complex organisations:)

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:11 AM

Agh that's confusing

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:11 AM

that's the way everyone does it exept publicity

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:11 AM

Cyrodiil doesn't do either, the Eastern Provinces do one and IB does the other

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:11 AM

wait

maybe not?

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:11 AM

I mean both BM and MW have Directors at the top

That's two Provinces

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:12 AM

ok Iliac Bay has Project Director a.k.a. lead

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:12 AM

Yep

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:12 AM

and then department leads/directors (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:12 AM

Publicity has Province and Department Directors

Yep it should be Province Directors and Department Leads

Directors being Council

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:13 AM

^ that's what I'm used to

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:13 AM

AGH

So many variations

I feel like we need to make a decision though

Takes it to vote

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:13 AM

And to be honest, you can ask for a change all you want. People will still confuse it.

1

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:13 AM

hah!

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:13 AM

Yeah tbh

Bard would just veto anything I wanted though so there's that

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:13 AM

it's been in the charter sincei t was written lol

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:13 AM

NUMBERS

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:13 AM

just nobody follows it

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:13 AM

Yeah

I prefer Director though for Council

1

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:14 AM

It's also not that simple. I'm the Cyrodiol co lead but also the dungeons&interiors lead. What on earth do I call myself apart from horribly confused? (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:15 AM

You'd be Cyrodiil Co-Director and Cyrodiil Interiors Lead

Tbh

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:15 AM

Although within cyrodiil it's not confusing at all:)

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:15 AM

The charter says "Council of Team Leads".

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:15 AM

I don't think anyone follows that though

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:15 AM

That makes it even more confusing.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:15 AM

I mean look at like half of the Provinces

Anyone on the Elsweyr server

What do they use

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:15 AM

People bashing isn't cool. Especially not in here. (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:15 AM

People bashing?

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:16 AM

The bard stuff.

Let's keep it to how confusing the titles are:)

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:16 AM

Ahhhh right

I'm sorry.... Agh it's just frustrating. I wish he'd let me work with him

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:17 AM

Leave the minstrel be!

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:18 AM

Don't say that. You'll have me spamming you with influencing skills worksheets.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:18 AM

I've tried to talk to him, he just irrationally hates me. There's nothing I can do and it is very, very frustrating, because as the main Level Design dude of the Eastern Provinces I'd like to be able to talk with the guy.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:20 AM

sometimes all the sheets in the world won't fix it

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:20 AM

I think there's a difference between people bashing and airing our concerns for the functionality of Beyond Skyrim as whole, though

1

But I think that needs to be done maturely

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:20 AM

if the person is dead set on hating you and screwing you over at every turn

for no reason

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:21 AM

I have literally no idea why he hates me so much. I've never spoken with him except that one time and he hated me before that.

I wish he let me talk to him, I really do.

He didn't move to this server because he hates me and Mel, who set it up

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:22 AM

"The Council has a duty to mediate in disputes between team members, where said members’ team leads have tried and been unable to, or do not believe themselves qualified or impartial enough to, resolve themselves."

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:22 AM

There is no dispute though

It's literally just a guy who hates me

And I don't know why

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:22 AM

both of us

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:23 AM

I haven't done anything here he just fucking hates me and Mel

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:23 AM

Well you said he wouldn't talk to you right?

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:23 AM

and all I have is guesses as to why

and statements from others that don't make any sense

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:23 AM

Yeah....

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:23 AM

I think there needs to be communication for it to get any better.

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:23 AM

I agree!

I've tried to talk to him but he WON'T

sobs

All I've seen from Bard is something quite dangerous in a team environment

He might be more than that

I don't know

Because he won't touch me with a ten foot pole and he won't tell me why

He would've vetoed this server

Which has proven to be fantastic

For everyone

Just because me and Mel were setting it up

I have nothing against the guy, I'm holding nothing against him. This is his problem and I think it's about time something is done about it.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:26 AM

yeah and we have to list examples from the past of how he's treated us because everything is in the past including this message as soon as I hit enter and edit my dyslexic text 20 times (edited)

someone was saying we couldn't talk about past events in regards to him earlier today

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:27 AM

buries face in hands

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:27 AM

when trying to prove our points

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:28 AM

I want Beyond Skyrim to function. We need to address these roadblocks. The fact that this could've happened in the first place is a testament to how broken the Council's operations currently are. LET'S GET RID OF THE UNANIMOUS VOTE

But we can't because it'd be vetoed

We're stuck

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:28 AM

he literally tried to start a witch hunt on me based on the fact that I had tried to add him as a friend on facebook via the friend suggestions thing

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:28 AM

oh

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:28 AM

back when I thought he was a friend

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:28 AM

I have very legitimate concerns tbh

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:29 AM

I thought it started because you kicked him from the IB server due to inactivity?

Anyway, not the time nor the place.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:29 AM

Thras just tried to add Winter and Kettlewitch as leads (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:30 AM

Agh they don't like you very much either, do they?

Why is this a problem

It shouldn't be

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:30 AM

and now Bard is arguing that they should be allowed to add whoever they want

even though we as a council decided not to let Dave be lead again after the last incident

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:30 AM

Like, as Council Members?

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:30 AM

*Thras not Elsweyr.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:31 AM

Ahhhh

Bard is a Lead for Thras?

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:31 AM

Nah, he just supported their decision.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:31 AM

Right

If the Council has made the decision not to allow Kettlewitch on then so be it

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:31 AM

and the reason he's barred is because of disciplinary issues

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:31 AM

I mean, I don't care what they do internally, but the can't have 3 seats.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:31 AM

so that means someone from Thras could contact Transbot and add him back?

no

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:32 AM

I haven't seen anything from Thras

There should be systems of 'if you're not doing anything then you don't get more than one council seat'

Because right now there can be empty, doing nothing at all projects with 3 council seats

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:33 AM

There is a rule for inactive projects already, that said, Thras is still active.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:33 AM

But.... barely

I've not seen anything from Thras

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:33 AM

being used just to pad the council with people who are unhappy with how things are running for the collaboration and think tearing it apart and putting themselves in control of everything is a good idea

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:33 AM

Yeah......

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:34 AM

Well Black Marsh isn't much more active either.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:34 AM

Nah we've picked up

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:34 AM

true

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:34 AM

We're doing lots of stuff atm

I mean I get what you're saying

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:34 AM

oh great

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:34 AM

Yeah we're doing heightmap revisions and lots of concepty stuff

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:34 AM

The issue with Thras is that you don't see any of their progress, similar to Elsweyr. But that is because they aren't here. (edited)

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:34 AM

Thras is active?

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:34 AM

Yeah

Agh there should be rules that you need to collaborate

Elsweyr and Thras are incredibly Insular

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:35 AM

there are

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:35 AM

Why aren't they being enforced?

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:35 AM

well really not

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:35 AM

Have they found a loophole?

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:35 AM

it's assumed that you're joining because you want to collaborate

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:35 AM

Force them to what?

This is a voluntary collaboration. (edited)

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:35 AM

no one ever thought of ... whatever they're doing

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:36 AM

If they're not collaborating and engaging in dialogue

They shouldn't be part of BS

Period

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:36 AM

Well, we didn't have a discord in the past.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:36 AM

We do now

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:36 AM

we have forums

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:36 AM

Yeah, but the main thing is still the forums.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:36 AM

Not for Morrowind and Black Marsh

We use Discord far, far more

And Google Drive for documenting everything

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:36 AM

most teams do now

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:36 AM

Yep

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:37 AM

Maybe, but the forum is what counts.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:37 AM

And clinging on to systems people don't use for the sake of them once being used is a terrible idea

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:37 AM

but we all still ahve a small presence on the forums

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:37 AM

What we get done and how it gets done is what counts

If a team is most efficient on Discord (like all teams) so be it

But

That's besides the poimnt

*point

Elsweyr is already using Discord

There is absolutely no reason they shouldn't be here

Same goes with Thras

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:38 AM

Thras is already using Discord

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:38 AM

My point being: They aren't breaking any rules by not being here.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:38 AM

Then the rules haven't been written very well

Stuff like this SHOULD NOT OCCUR

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:38 AM

I think they are.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:38 AM

and that's why they're being looked over

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:38 AM

Good

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 07:38 AM

I am! I am a core member of Elsweyr

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:38 AM

Oh that's true!

D'you think you could convince the rest of Elsweyr to get over here?

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:39 AM

we have 2 core Elsweyr members in here

and one of them is also a lead on iliac Bay

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:39 AM

And Rob is a Lead on MW

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:39 AM

and a lead in Elsweyr

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:39 AM

How was your holiday Rob?

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:39 AM

Sage of Ice is a lead in Iliac Bay and Elsweyr

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:40 AM

Ahhh yes

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 07:40 AM

Excellent thanks, just chugging through all the RL crap two weeks away brings

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:40 AM

Ahhhh

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:41 AM

there was a lot of member crossover between IB and Elsweyr but most of them (including dept directors) are choosing to leave with no manipulation from me Elsweyr and work on Iliac Bay only

they're unhappy with something over there

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:41 AM

Like Noctis

Yep

That needs to be addressed

A big project collaboration like this cannot function if its limbs are gangrenous and we do nothing about it

Case in point - Morrowind for the last 3 years, Morrowind itself had to essentially fix itself over a course of three months. The Council did nothing about the state of MW

That sort of thing needs to be enforced

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:42 AM

we have one member who was an Elsweyr dept lead and made a new account because Bard wouldn't let him leave (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:42 AM

What

Couldn't he like

Leave the Discord

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:43 AM

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:43 AM

See right there, that shouldn't happen

In a healthy and efficient work environment shit like that should not even start to happen

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:46 AM

it's messed up

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:46 AM

But nothing will be done about it, because the Charter revisions won't get rid of the unanimous vote

We need a 70% vote or something

Because the veto has brought up so, so many issues

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:50 AM

You just need to work within the limits of what we can do or you'll drive yourself nuts. (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:50 AM

I don't see why reform isn't possible

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:50 AM

This server has been great for cross province dialogue. Make sure we have good and friendly contacts with everyone and hat helps a lot.

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:51 AM

That's what I'd like

But there are people who won't come here

So those friendly contacts can't be made

Honestly this server has been fantastic. I've gotten to know so many people so much better

What were once names are now actual people.

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:51 AM

There are people from those provinces here though so work with them.

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:52 AM

And that's the sort of environment we need

We have been

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:52 AM

there are people out there who live to find imperfections in systems and exploit them

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:52 AM

A lot of the time of how people behave is set by leads (I may have to lol to some corporate guff) so if we're all happy and positive and teamy it helps.

1

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:52 AM

and no amount of reasoning and pr can fix that

1

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:52 AM

It also helps highlight when people aren't being and subtly pressure change.

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:52 AM

We've been super teamy lately

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:53 AM

Yeah so keep going with that.

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:53 AM

Subtly pressuring change doesn't work for everyone though

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:53 AM

everyone here is getting along great

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:53 AM

Yep

It's actually really heartwarming tbh

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:53 AM

so not sure what you mean

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:53 AM

Nope. And within the bs structure unless you want to bring a complain and have someone kicked off there's nothing you can do about it.

So you have to accept that and find ways of working to minimise bad impacts.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:54 AM

what about... we don't want to do him any harm (edited)

we just want him to stop being a jerk (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:54 AM

Yep

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:54 AM

And getting people kicked off usually causes as much harm as it does solve an issue because it creates a lot of bad feeling.

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:54 AM

I don't want him kicked off

I want him to change his behavior

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:55 AM

we don't want to threaten anyone or kick anyone or hurt anyone

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:55 AM

How? I mean realistically it's unlikely that we'll have a situation where everyone gets on with everyone.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:55 AM

we just don't want those things done to us (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:55 AM

That's true

But when this person that no one gets along with is threatening the stability of a team environment then it is most certainly an issue

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:55 AM

and we don't want our names ran through the mud

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:55 AM

Yep

Because he's already done that to me and Mel

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:56 AM

This stuff is really hard. It's not a surprise we don't always get it right. Massive firms pay people lots of money to try and solve these kinds issues.

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:56 AM

I get along with everyone.

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:56 AM

❤

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:56 AM

❤

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:56 AM

I'd love to say the same tbh

I've reached out to Bard numerous times

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 07:56 AM

Could we curtail the Bard bashing though please? Difficult to encourage Elsweyr to contribute if the lead of the province is being bashed constantly

1

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:56 AM

So reach out to other people on Elswhyr instead.

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:57 AM

I don't think we're bard bashing

Bard bashing would be making fun of him and teasing him as a person

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:57 AM

It does feel like it

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:57 AM

Criticising his behaviour is completely different

1

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:57 AM

It's not helpful though.

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:57 AM

Should I just sit aside and let him run my name through the mud

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:57 AM

we aren't a firm though or a company

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:57 AM

I agree with Claire.

1

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:58 AM

Because we just go round in circles.

1

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:58 AM

the same rules don't apply here

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:58 AM

Reach out to another person.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:58 AM

But I can't

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:58 AM

How's that?

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:58 AM

Because Elsweyr is controlled by him

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 07:58 AM

No joe they don't. It's even harder here because you don't have the stick of a pay cheque here.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:58 AM

there is no monetary incentive for people to bahave themselves

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 07:58 AM

I think you are exaggerating things, Larrian.

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 07:59 AM

Elsweyr is lead by hin

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:59 AM

I may be, yeah

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 07:59 AM

Him

He is not a dictator

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 07:59 AM

and I'm finding that a small percentage of the world might actually enjoy being bad when they have the opportunity

maybe it just isn't fixable

14%

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:59 AM

Everything I've heard from the vast majority of people contradicts that Rob

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 08:00 AM

Well, on the Elsweyr Discord the atmosphere is very calm and friendly

That and my interactions with Bard are all I can use as evidence of that

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:00 AM

And that's fine

I just

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:01 AM

he is nice when he wants something from you

and he does the awful stuff in private

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 08:01 AM

You have a solution right here - rob is Elswhyr, work with rob.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:01 AM

that make you want to jump off a bridge

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 08:01 AM

Thanks Claire

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:02 AM

That's true yeah

But that's still ignoring the issue

Yeah he does

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:02 AM

yeah are you an Elsweyr lead Rob?

lead not dept director?

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:02 AM

He's a Dept Director

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 08:02 AM

Lead yes

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:02 AM

Not a Lead

He isn't a Council Member for it though

Are you?

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 08:02 AM

No

I am a lead (I think)

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:03 AM

Yeah that's what I think Joe was tryna say (edited)

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:03 AM

then if he knows I wanted something in there he would deny you

or Larrian

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 08:03 AM

I don't have a Council Seat for Elsweyr

That I don't know about

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 08:04 AM

But rob is a good link into Elswhyr.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:04 AM

This is the entirety of my interactions with Bard

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:04 AM

I was hopeful that it helped that Sage was a team lead there

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 08:04 AM

I feel like we're too focused on titles.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:04 AM

Yeah that might be true, Claire

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 08:04 AM

Yes same

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:04 AM

and he might be able to get things done there

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:05 AM

This is brushing over the issue that he is completely biased in his council decisions against Joe and I

Which is I think a huge concern

Anywa

*Anyway

This isn't getting us anywhere

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 08:06 AM

Have you been part of a council decision yet?

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:06 AM

he tried to make the decision to have this server or not a council decision

which tbh I kinda expected him to do

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 08:07 AM

Well, it does concern all provinces though.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:07 AM

No I haven't yet

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:07 AM

so does the publicity discord

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 08:07 AM

You can't say this server isn't an important matter for cross province collaboration.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:07 AM

and the AU discord

and the AF discord

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:08 AM

Well this server is important

It's proven to be so

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 08:08 AM

AU and AF are different because they are their individual projects and have autonomy.

And bard is in the public discord. And that wasn't meant to be for cross province development at the start.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:09 AM

But this one was

And he doesn't like it and would've vetoed it

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:09 AM

the rule doesn't say every action that gets taken or move that gets made that might have an affect on cross provinces should be a council decision

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 08:10 AM

There is always the way of reason, Larrian.

Bard might not like you, but he is not a suicidal maniac.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:10 AM

I know that

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:10 AM

have you interacted with him on the council forums yet?

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:10 AM

No

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:10 AM

@Kelretu

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:11 AM

Oh

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 08:11 AM

No, I had not matter to discuss with him yet.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:11 AM

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 08:11 AM

Noctis handled the recruits for Elsweyr so far that wanted to be participate in the AU.

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:11 AM

Can we address this though? Like officially? I really want to be able to work with him.

And it sucks because I don't know why he hates me

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:12 AM

I really think all this is pointless

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:12 AM

Which is very taxing on my mind

What's pointless?

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 08:12 AM

Well make a thread on the private forums and find out. (edited)

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:12 AM

we're beating our heads on a brick wall here

there is no solution

you can't make a person do something they don't want to

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:13 AM

That's very true

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:13 AM

and he doesn't want to cooperate

Kelretu 27-Jul-17 08:13 AM

I wouldn't strictly exclude that.

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:13 AM

and we as a council really don't have the power to do anything about... what can we really do?

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:13 AM

cries softly

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:16 AM

well we don't have any real power but neither does he and the nerf weapon weilding mob that he's putting together

so maybe we can https://youtu.be/2MFy8lbdRx0

jeffery FARR

sissy fight - YouTube

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:18 AM

Joe didn't you say you had some ideas for a new MW logo?

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:19 AM

yeah lets move past this and not talk about it again unti we have to

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:19 AM

Agreed

But yeah what your MW logo ideas?

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:20 AM

a volcano with lava spirals coming out to make it look similar to the star

plus a 3d version of the crescent (edited)

with a nice chiny metal applied to it

what would be a good metal color?

that's what I had

opinions?

you can say you don't like that I can take criticism

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:22 AM

Hmmmm

I wanna avoid the moon and star symbology

Hang on

I might have an idea

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:24 AM

watcha got?

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:25 AM

I don't have an idea

I thought I did but I do not

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:25 AM

aw

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:26 AM

Our themes are of loss, coming to terms with loss and rebuilding. Like our main themey themes that we theme with for the general feeling of everything

I think it should play into the logo

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:26 AM

a symbol for loss...

hm

in universe for ES

how about a sweetroll shaped like a volcano

sorry

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:27 AM

It'd just look like an ejaculating sweetroll

I mean

Volcano

Or both

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 08:28 AM

oh god

s

just the eye and the tears

oh shit

volcano/eye/tears

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 08:32 AM

I think that might be a bit too on the nose

And not Morrowindy enough

Pretty cool idea though

glsimson 27-Jul-17 10:04 AM

Bit of advice - maybe don't talk gossip about other projects in the leads chat, about either Elsweyr or Thras

I'm getting so sick of it

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 10:09 AM

^^^^

glsimson 27-Jul-17 10:10 AM

It seems to have become a norm for senior members to talk smack about each other in official channels when they think the people in question can't see it

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 10:11 AM

we knew you were in here

glsimson 27-Jul-17 10:11 AM

Oh, that makes it better

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 10:11 AM

but I'm not in that group DM

that I know about

but yeah you're right

glsimson 27-Jul-17 10:12 AM

As someone who's basically outgoing, there are a couple of peeps in here saying that it shouldn't happen - let's do that

Joseph Crowell 27-Jul-17 10:12 AM

we need to stop

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 10:29 AM

Yes, I agree! No more of it

We are all here for the same goal

We need to act like a team

The infighting and squabbling is not healthy or productive

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 10:38 AM

Yay. Time for a corporate guff link. Wiki on high performing teams https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-performance_teams

High-performance teams

High-performance teams (HPTs) is a concept within organization development referring to teams, organizations, or virtual groups that are highly focused on their goals and that achieve superior business results. High-performance teams outperform a...

We can re-group round the collective ideal of the BS mission statement and become the worlds most formidable modding force. Mwahaha (edited)

I am really into all this stuff. But I do find rereading the mission statement when I'm feeling burned out really helps.

Robcbwilson 27-Jul-17 11:13 AM

Thanks Claire, it is always important to reflect every once in a while why we are all here

2

1

Hannes821 27-Jul-17 04:46 PM

Hello team mates! lets focus on the beauty of modding, shall we ?

whats your plans recently?

Bellatrix 27-Jul-17 04:51 PM

Conquer the world. Modding wise make lots of dungeons now Bruma is out and I can go back to the stuff I really enjoy:)

Working on an abandoned fort full of necromancers for Roscrea and an Ayleid dungeon that's used as a base for one of our Mage factions for Cyrodiil. I'd forgotten how much I love level design.

Hannes821 27-Jul-17 06:08 PM

yeah. its so nice to spend less time on discord or in documents for writing, and more in CK

Larrian (Morrowind) 27-Jul-17 07:32 PM

I apologise for ranting earlier. I should probably formalise what I'm going to say and go about it in a more mature manner rather than spouting my thoughts

1

Hayden 27-Jul-17 10:55 PM

Perhaps bringing in a mediator on your discussions might help and keep things more civil if you're having problems with other members, regardless of their standing within a team.

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 28-Jul-17 03:17 AM

Okay I spoke to Bard in PM, I think things are good now

Bellatrix 28-Jul-17 03:38 AM

Awesome!

Robcbwilson 28-Jul-17 03:56 AM

Cool, I encouraged him to build bridges and it looks like now we have a new shiny bridge

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 28-Jul-17 04:00 AM

Yeah I think, as per usual it was a communication issue. Though it was a communication issue I tried to solve but couldn't. Glad things are sorted now

1

And thanks for the help there, Rob, I really appreciate it ❤

Robcbwilson 28-Jul-17 04:05 AM

No problem at all

Larrian (Morrowind) 28-Jul-17 04:16 AM

Now we just need to get him and the rest of Elsweyr on here

Larrian (Morrowind) 28-Jul-17 06:04 AM

Welp

That went well

I think that shiny new bridge just collapsed

I've accepted responsibility for not bringing up the matter maturely, I don't think there's anything else I can do

I'm putting this to rest now

Larrian (Morrowind) 28-Jul-17 06:35 AM

http://i.imgur.com/zwFyueE.png

@Sage of Ice here's the Political map with fixed borders

Also everyone can see it now I think

http://i.imgur.com/zwFyueE.png

Discord doesn't like the image

Hannes821 29-Jul-17 05:02 AM

heya, colleagues! what a wonderful day for a merge

rob i promise i will be more active and provide you with PR ideas the next 2 weeks

1

Robcbwilson 29-Jul-17 05:30 AM

Look forward to them @Hannes821

1

Hannes821 29-Jul-17 05:30 AM

thanks

i am happy that we have some cool people who can cover the process, so all we need to do is sort our thoughts and make a nice design

1

Kelretu 04-Aug-17 06:12 AM

Does anybody know how I can change the display of the name of a project on DC?

1

Robcbwilson 04-Aug-17 06:32 AM

Xae will be able to help

Kelretu 04-Aug-17 07:24 AM

Alright, I'll contact him. Thanks. :)

1

Meglos (Morrowind) 18-Aug-17 12:21 PM

This Zetrax guy is really getting on my nerves

I mean, I know we don't ban people for their political beliefs, but jesus

"Women and men are already equal, what's all the fuss about?"

Hannes821 18-Aug-17 03:26 PM

hmmmm maybe its good to limit personal beliefs about political, religious and philosophical matters on offtopic channels (?) well, i must be honest, if somebody asks me, i share these personal thinkings too sometimes, and i know its not professional

Joseph Crowell 18-Aug-17 09:16 PM

this is why we weren't supposed to have a political chat

because no you can't

and if people start talking about banning people for political beliefs then the chat should go

Joseph Crowell 18-Aug-17 09:38 PM

for example I would love nothing more than banning Stranger and Math LeBeau (edited)

but I haven't mentioned it because they haven't actually done anything wrong other than continually rubbing me the wrong way

Larrian (Morrowind) 18-Aug-17 10:25 PM

Ehhh it doesn't mean we can't work with them

If people are affected by it easily they should just stay out of the channel

It's for mature discussion, it doesn't even need to be about politics

Joseph Crowell 18-Aug-17 10:31 PM

https://youtu.be/DeQdpLlIjl0

Michael Maloney

Politicians Divide to Conquer (George Carlin Comedian)

Robcbwilson 19-Aug-17 01:22 AM

Just want to clarify something with everyone. Am I correct in assuming that all screenshots posted on the Community Outpost News channel are public and therefore able to be shared on our other media arms (Snapchat/ Instagram / Twitter etc)?

Joseph Crowell 19-Aug-17 01:25 AM

yes

Robcbwilson 19-Aug-17 01:36 AM

Thanks, thought as much. Just wanted to double check

1

Hayden 19-Aug-17 09:08 AM

As long as political beliefs are only expressed in the political channel I'm happy. Everyone is allowed to think what they want, and we live in a world where we have to accept people will have different beliefs than us, but we certainly don't need to agree with them.

Larrian (Morrowind) 19-Aug-17 10:07 AM

Completely agreed

Kelretu 19-Aug-17 12:11 PM

I personally think the internet is the wrong place to have a proper political discussion, but as long as it stays in that channel and the rest of the rules are respected, I don't really care.

Muted that channel anyway because I noticed I got a bit biased and that just makes my work harder.

Hannes821 20-Aug-17 02:57 AM

math is maybe young and a bit ... i dont know, he is nice and all, but its not really enjoyable to talk with him or work on a topic... its always somewhat offtopic what he says, and he doesnt really follow the project (at least on my server) but yeah, i accepted his application before because he has a friend in my team, mangarian; and well, he didnt do anything wrong else than trolling the communication here and there ;-) and he seems to be a nice guy...

dont know that stranger

Joseph Crowell 20-Aug-17 03:16 AM

when he repeatedly tries to force us to accept members with no application is what annoys me currently or with applications that aren't up to par

it's mostly because he's young and very eager to involve people he's connected to which wouldn't be bad in and of it's self if he took the time to understand our processes

Hannes821 22-Aug-17 04:29 PM

we have a language barrier and he also asked me for each single step ect; but we are getting there. after a day or so, we found the option to upload images in discord. now, our next merge is scheduled for in about 6 weeks, and general rule is, that new members should hand in a file of their department for evaluation within that time (in total 2 months). to be considered regular member (or not, if it looks awful). we will see, maybe he hands in something and we can work together. Its good that i could talk with him about it, and eventhough he sometimes keeps arguing me when he doesnt understand me, he is very motivated and positive, and doesnt keep a bad mood as far as i can tell; so after we worked together for some time, he might become a valuable member, afterall. (edited)

Joseph Crowell 22-Aug-17 04:41 PM

Hopefully

Maybe his language skills will increase as he works with us

1

Robcbwilson 30-Aug-17 08:54 AM

With November the 11th quickly approaching it is time to start thinking about what we want to do to mark another Skyrim birthday ❤️

I know there are a number of provinces planning trailers so any thoughts as to what we would like to do to mark the 11th of the 11th this year?

1

Hannes821 30-Aug-17 12:24 PM

good idea, i will ask my team too

Bellatrix 31-Aug-17 02:24 PM

I'm useless at stuff like this. Will ask

Robcbwilson 01-Sep-17 02:19 AM

Thanks both

My initial thought is we could perhaps do an AMA on either YouTube or Reddit if everyone is tapped out in terms of videos

Hannes821 01-Sep-17 02:30 AM

sorry, what do you mean with AMA ? we can definitely have screenshots, and a short trailer...

Robcbwilson 01-Sep-17 03:36 AM

Ask Me Anything

Kelretu 01-Sep-17 03:55 AM

How would an AMA on youtube work?

People send in questions beforehand and then they are answered in the video?

Robcbwilson 01-Sep-17 05:03 AM

Not sure, but I think you can do live chat there unless I am mistaken

Bellatrix 01-Sep-17 05:34 AM

It's not really pan BS but maybe one of the other provinces could do a live stream like Cyrodiol used to?

Robcbwilson 01-Sep-17 05:37 AM

Yes, we could do a series of them for provinces that are interested

I was at the last Cyrodiil one and thought it went really well

Kelretu 01-Sep-17 05:44 AM

Would that be the right thing for the anniversary or more of a general thing?

Robcbwilson 01-Sep-17 05:52 AM

Well, I think we will struggle to get enough content for a separate video as from what I know, four provinces have a video planned of their own

So I am trying to come up with an alternative

Which is why I am asking for suggestions ahead of time

Bellatrix 01-Sep-17 05:56 AM

If there are going to be 4 videos for it is that not enough for the anniversary on its own?

Robcbwilson 01-Sep-17 05:58 AM

Well, I don't believe these videos are for the anniversary rather they are just coming out around that time

Larrian (Morrowind) 01-Sep-17 06:56 AM

AMA on Reddit definitely

Not Youtube, doing it on Reddit would get quite a bit of attention

We can handle answering in the Discord, just 'I'll answer this question' then post a screencap of said question

et.c

*etc.

Kelretu 01-Sep-17 07:14 AM

I agree that AMAs are best done on Reddit, but I'd keep discord out of that.

I still think that may be too large and not visually appealing enough for the anniversary celebration.

Larrian (Morrowind) 01-Sep-17 07:17 AM

No I mean, we can coordinate answering questions on here

So we don't double up

We still answer on Reddit

So we just like claim questions to answer if that makes sense

As there are a lot of us

1

Kelretu 01-Sep-17 07:17 AM

Ah okay, now I understand.

1

Hannes821 11-Sep-17 10:42 AM

hellow, everyone well ?

lets just not only talk about problems, and share some good times as well. our project runs well at the moment

Bellatrix 11-Sep-17 11:04 AM

I'm stressed out of mind, don't seem to be getting any claims finished because I've got about 4 key ones on the go and just hoping from claim to claim in a panic whilst trying to do tech support for Bruma and real life work is super busy. But I'm adopting a dog so it's not all bad:)

Having said that once the claims are finished I'll be really happy again. I hate the bits where it feels like nothing is happening even though you know it is really:)

Kelretu 11-Sep-17 11:41 AM

Oooh what kind of dog?

Bellatrix 11-Sep-17 12:33 PM

I think she's a lurcher cross (I'm not good with dog types). She's a rescue dog called Bella and gets on well with cats which is just as well really. Not sure what the cats will make of her though:)

1

Hannes821 12-Sep-17 04:55 AM

get some social cats. oh well, animals are time spent as well

1shoedpunk 16-Sep-17 12:04 PM

that new "modeler" etuuna is lileen https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/11231-i-want-to-help-in-cyrodiil-morrowind-or-blackmarsh/

I want to help in Cyrodiil, Morrowind or Blackmarsh

hello everyone i would love to help and join your team im right now working on remeshing and retexturing buldings from Cyrodiil and Morrowind, and on some l...

xae did an ip check and pm'd them

just a a heads up for anyone who sees the post

Robcbwilson 16-Sep-17 02:50 PM

Thanks @1shoedpunk nice catch!

Valkyrja BOT 16-Sep-17 02:51 PM

@1shoedpunk received a thank you sweetroll!

Hannes821 19-Sep-17 01:59 PM

hurtz

1shoedpunk 24-Sep-17 05:14 PM

so there's a beyond skyrim dev wiki?

@Joseph Crowell can you add me? my uesp username is 1shoedpunk

Joseph Crowell 24-Sep-17 05:19 PM

We have our own account list

Sign up at beyondskyrim.uesp.net

I'll add you when I get home

@1shoedpunk

1shoedpunk 25-Sep-17 10:04 PM

apparently i'm in but nothing seems to be on there?

Joseph Crowell 26-Sep-17 04:17 AM

It's just a front.. a public wiki that actually only holds the user names for our private wiki

Hannes821 26-Sep-17 05:13 AM

so, if i am logged in, can i see that private wiki? i expanded the atmora page a bit last night, is that still the public part? do i need to log in again somewhere for the "private" part?

Joseph Crowell 26-Sep-17 05:17 AM

yeah

it's under a different subdomain

https://beyondskyrimdev.uesp.net (edited)

Joseph Crowell 26-Sep-17 05:26 AM

log in with the same account details

Hannes821 26-Sep-17 03:46 PM

i fired FaZe

his interior was so horrible

let me quote anathem

"yeah, my eyes hurt and my brain too"

it was beyond okay, very far

just that you know

i can send you screenshots if you are interested in that matter, but i want to spare you that horrible experience

Rubaedo 26-Sep-17 04:06 PM

Well now I'm curious.

1

Hannes821 26-Sep-17 04:17 PM

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/277176169852305409/362336415570329610/unknown.png

he did not hand in anything last cycle and the interior he gave me for application this merge did have seams (gaps), an unfinished layout and few very basic objects, also things that dont make sense, and only used very very standard norsmallroomwalls.

i welcomed him back for december, asked him to take a rest for a cycle and consider if he really wants to mod. he only asked me to tag him for the cyrodiil team in the dev general

i told him that i am only atmora member ofc

Rubaedo 26-Sep-17 05:17 PM

that certainly is a... big empty room.

1

Kelretu 29-Sep-17 08:40 PM

FaZeZawx is requesting Cyrodiil/Level Designer roles. Is that legit?

Kelretu 29-Sep-17 09:12 PM

Nevermind, Linton gave him the roles.

Hannes821 30-Sep-17 02:50 PM

i would suggest to reconsider, but its not of my business. MathLeBeu was better in LD and much much nicer than him, and even he was struggle to work with... but ofc thats just the opinion of somebody who is not responsible for that.

1shoedpunk 02-Oct-17 07:41 PM

Faze is not a member of Cyrodiil afaik

@Bellatrix would have recruited them if so

I won't say no for sure but they don't appear to be on the Slack

Bellatrix 03-Oct-17 12:20 PM

Yeah they are. They’ve been on interiors for ages but not very active.

Hannes821 04-Oct-17 06:58 AM

having 20 people like Faze more or not doesnt do any difference for the project

sorry for my harsh opinion.

Kelretu 04-Oct-17 07:09 AM

In my opinion it does, not in a good way though.

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Oct-17 07:25 AM

Imo we definitely need to have higher standards when it comes to recruitment

1

Bellatrix 04-Oct-17 09:10 AM

I’m fine with taking less experienced people for interiors for cyrodiil. Some of them become really good and if not all the interiors get a second pass anyway. It won’t necessarily work for all projects but it’s working well for cyrodiil.

Kelretu 04-Oct-17 09:29 AM

I mean it is not so much an issue if people are actively working and learning, but from what Hannes described the issue was that the person didn't really do much and the stuff that was being done was not good enough.

And if you have too many people in a team who barely do anything you'll have an active minority who feels like it is doing everything on their own.

1

Robcbwilson 04-Oct-17 02:09 PM

I am not against taking on new people (as you can tell from my involvement in the AU), but I think that we need to only spend time on people who have drive and enthusiasm in wanting to contribute. The trick is identifying them

1

Hannes821 04-Oct-17 03:33 PM

but thats just a memo, still each team can run their management and team building as they want. I just wanted to share my thoughts with you.

i also like to give people second and third chances, but at some point there needs to be a decision if it helps the project or not,

and yes, many people change incredibly from complaining player (somebody who whispered me about what he didnt like about bruma; and then i told him very clear i am not responsible and i disagree

) to core member (he learned LD and implementation well ) within just 5 or 6 weeks. I just had such a case in my team again recently, which makes me happy tpp

but then other people dont (edited)

edit: too

Hannes821 15-Oct-17 03:18 PM

hey @1shoedpunk

how are you?

Kelretu 18-Oct-17 03:11 AM

Thought it would be good to link that here since I'm not sure everyone saw that yet: https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/12015-project-inactivity/

Hannes821 18-Oct-17 03:25 AM

yes, time to consider on how to help some projects or suggest to focus on those closer to release; sorry i can understand if some of you disagree but i simply believe this would be beneficial to all of us.

Robcbwilson 18-Oct-17 03:32 AM

I have kickstarted Elsweyr's landscaping so we are back to making actual measurable progress once more

Hayden 18-Oct-17 04:25 AM

How much do you know about substance designer Rob?

Robcbwilson 18-Oct-17 05:03 AM

A little. I am still learning how to make things

It is something I am super keen to learn more though

As what you can produce with it is stunning

Hayden 18-Oct-17 05:32 AM

I'll send a PM once I'm home, going to rewrite my tutorial on it when i have timr

Kelretu 18-Oct-17 05:35 AM

I can agree with Hannes to a degree, but I think the issue is not that we have a lot of people working on projects that are further away from a release. It is rather that we lack transparency to be sure that some provinces ever see a release at all.

With Thras for example (not implying here that they won't release). It is hard to judge their progress and whether or not they are an active province if all you see from them is some pics of Kettlewitch every now and then.

They could be very active behind the curtain.

But it might also be that it has become more or less a one-man project.

Hayden 18-Oct-17 05:41 AM

I'm in agreement also, for a province collaboration, any outside members know worryingly little about whats going on with them

Black Marsh also, however i think it's more a case of there simply being no progress with them

Larrian (Morrowind) 18-Oct-17 05:52 AM

BM is on hiatus until MW is in a fit position for Ennie and I not to be paying 100% attention to it. That said, there's a solid framework that Ennie is still buildinng, and BM isn't as dead as it may seem

Projects usually will sit for a couple of years before rolling forward.

BM is also at the disadvantage of having essentially zero unique assets - especially from modder's resources

Kelretu 18-Oct-17 05:57 AM

How much longer do you think this hiatus will be? And how many people are currently actively working on BM?

Also, will you post that in the thread yourself or shall I qoute it for you? I know you don't like using the forums.

Hayden 18-Oct-17 06:08 AM

What history do we have of projects sitting and doing nothing for a couple of years?

Kelretu 18-Oct-17 06:14 AM

From what I heard Roscrea had that issue before Claire picked it up.

And I believe Morrowind before the team changed.

Elsweyr has been fairly dead and more of a side project of Morcroft and Joop before TOYB came back.

I don't think any of them got officially closed though.

That's just what I have heard though. And I'm lacking a few years.

Joseph Crowell 18-Oct-17 06:29 AM

Elsweyr was just Morcroft for a number of years (edited)

even before Joop helped (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 18-Oct-17 06:34 AM

Yep, Elsweyr, Roscrea and Morrowind

And Kelretu to answer your BM questions, we have me, Ennie, Saturnus, BaronZ and a couple of others actively discussing, participating and working on Black Marsh, though it's less work, more 'here's some more groundworky stuff for gameplay/lore.' I don't know how much longer it'll be. Once MW is in a fitter state we'll go hard into BM and get some PR done for it as well. I'd expect it late this Summer, probably (Winter for literally everyone else.)

And yeah feel free to quote away :P

Joseph Crowell 18-Oct-17 06:44 AM

"(Winter for literally everyone else.)"

I live like 10 k from you and so does Hayden

(edited)

Kelretu 18-Oct-17 06:53 AM

Alright. I know it is currently nearly unavoidable due to shared members, but I think we should make BM more independant from MW in the future if it is meant to be a separate province.

Larrian (Morrowind) 18-Oct-17 06:57 AM

Okay yeah, good point Joe

For nearly literally everyone else

Yeah that's true, Kelretu

That, or combine them

A'la Iliac Bay

Kelretu 18-Oct-17 07:02 AM

Similar, MW and BM wouldn't fit in one worldspace I think. (edited)

Hayden 18-Oct-17 07:07 AM

Aside from worldspaces they would certainly work in similar ways

But i think thats more of a future discussion i think

Main problem at the moment is how all provinces are progressing along

I tried to get an updated Tamriel wide map about 3 months ago, probably even 6 months

Most answers i got were 'we're not ready' or 'not enough progress compared to the last map'

And we had community members bring it up and it seems to be a very similar answer still, months later

Larrian (Morrowind) 18-Oct-17 07:27 AM

No not in the same worldspace

And on that, MW should be good to do an overhead map soonish

Robcbwilson 18-Oct-17 07:39 AM

Cool, thanks @Hayden look forward to the new tutorial

1shoedpunk 18-Oct-17 06:25 PM

@Larrian (Morrowind) projects really can't sit for a couple of years. They cease to be projects at that point, just a collection of notes.

It's just frustrating to see mods that do have plenty of assets sit and wait on literally all the writing to take place including background materials

We started Bruma with a rough idea and greenlit quests as they were written. We don't have all of Cyrodiil planned out, but we have a rough enough image of it that we're working in multiple areas at once

I don't know about assets for Black Marsh but Morrowind has full Telvanni assets, a full daedric dungeon set, a decent amount of house redoran assets, a full set of velothi assets, full set of dagon fel assets, a bunch of ashlander tents, etc. not to mention the vanilla assets that could be used for caves, imperial forts, dwemer ruins, etc.

After converting a ton of those it's a bit frustrating to see them just kind of sitting there because everyone thinks they can make all new assets no problem.

It's clearly not happening and in the cases it is, it's moving incredibly slow. I don't want us to be another failed project like Tamriel Rebuilt.

1shoedpunk 18-Oct-17 07:11 PM

Don't mean to single out Morrowind, there are other teams with similar coverage in terms of ported and pre-existing assets.

Meglos (Morrowind) 18-Oct-17 11:21 PM

I don't think anyone ever said Morrowind was being slow (edited)

And we don't have plenty of assets sitting and waiting for writing at all

Literally the opposite is true

Robcbwilson 19-Oct-17 12:42 AM

Speaking for Elsweyr, we as a team did become too fixated on the assets we don't have rather than using the assets we do have. Landscaping the areas we have assets for is beginning again and we will start to block out some of the cities we have plans for so that we see how the plans look in game

So thanks @1shoedpunk for refocusing us

Larrian (Morrowind) 19-Oct-17 12:52 AM

Yep. The plenty of assets we have are so poor in quality it's essentially impossible to use them.

Morrowind is moving at a fine pace, I think the reason people think it isn't is because it's essentially still in a pre-production phase, one that we're quickly moving out of

Kelretu 19-Oct-17 01:24 AM

High Rock and Hammerfell have a lot of assets that are poor in quality as well. Doesn't mean they can't function as placeholders.

I'm always telling LDs to just use anything they can as placeholders so that they can continue working. It might not look as good on screenshots for a time but at least it helps with development bottlenecks.

Larrian (Morrowind) 19-Oct-17 01:28 AM

That's true

Robcbwilson 19-Oct-17 02:08 AM

That is an excellent point @Kelretu

Hannes821 19-Oct-17 11:49 AM

i guess its also a question of team specialisation. For us, it was very beneficial to have 1 director on the communciation side, and one constantly expanding and controlling Leveldesign. In the end, for a CK project i guess, it all starts with having a landscape to plant your quests and assets into. So, my personal opinion is, a projects progress should be measured by how far the layout landscape design is; not so much the writing, as writing can explode within days, once a few people collaborate and share documents and cross-comment... but still its always good to have the frame set, the conditions visible, in that case the landscape that you want to invite the player into...

Larrian (Morrowind) 19-Oct-17 11:50 AM

Yep, and not having the assets to landscape makes that difficult

We're not going to half arse this, either

The last thing I want is to rush BS:Morrowind because it takes time to get our environmental assets right

Hannes821 20-Oct-17 02:45 AM

well, i think one can use templates first, in real life ofc you want to avoid doing the same 2 times, but in CK LD i think its worth it

Hannes821 25-Oct-17 09:03 AM

so, since everyone keeps complaining, @Joseph Crowell , whats the plan about switching recruitment system from global forum to global blackboard with links and local forums

anything still required? anyone against it? maybe i missed something

Joseph Crowell 25-Oct-17 05:05 PM

The reason it hasn't been done is because people are against it I believe

A large group of provinces haven't made their own forum to support the change and would stop getting recruits entirely

Cyrodill and Roscrea and Thras and Morrowind and Black Marsh

Also the Atronach forge

I can't do it for them. I'm not administrator on the forums

Hannes821 25-Oct-17 07:52 PM

@Bellatrix @Larrian (Morrowind) @Robcbwilson @Meglos (Morrowind) @1shoedpunk @Hayden against it or just no time for the page setup?

i didnt recruit anyone from the BS page since july, but i will have time again now... or we split.

Hayden 25-Oct-17 07:55 PM

I've been out of the loop, someone care to explain?

Are we talking about some kind of recreuitment form they can fill out that gets sent to any provinces they mention they want to be a part of?

Hannes821 25-Oct-17 08:00 PM

no, it was about not having 1 forum where all leads and dep leads answer 1 recruty. rather have a central page with short discriptions and links to each province´/team´s forum page for recruitment. this would bring everyone where they want to be and avoid rivalry amongst us. (and also the bad impression of punching each other for some newbies)

1

1shoedpunk 25-Oct-17 08:17 PM

I think it's literally just time, Cyrodiil would be fine with that model. I think that there was actually a lot of preference for the current model though.

Hayden 25-Oct-17 08:22 PM

Can't we set up some kind of Google form that new recruitys can fill out that actually requires them to nominate a province/cross province that then gets forwarded to all of our @beyondskyrim.org email addresses or something? Then there's literally no seagull recruitment, everyone gets the recruits they want, and there's no need for us to check forums, etc., it's all just sent directly to whoever needs to see it

Hayden 25-Oct-17 08:42 PM

I personally think DC can be very daunting to go through, with so many different projects being hosted, so many BS teams having forums there, and with each of those teams having multiple subforums and differing formats for organising. To add to that, since a lot of our team communications have moved from the forums to Slack and Discord, as well as relying on Trello for many of our art related tasks and Google Drive for most writing related things, the forums are rarely used and function as more of an archive than anything else

1shoedpunk 25-Oct-17 08:42 PM

that's tricky to set up

might as well just have a form for each province then

Hayden 25-Oct-17 08:43 PM

I've never tried before so I'm not entirely sure on the technicallities, was just curious about the possibilities

It would surely help the 'seagull recruitment' problems everyone seems to complain about

1shoedpunk 25-Oct-17 08:44 PM

it's possible to set it up the way you've described, but it's easier to do a google form for each province

and the end result would be similar

Hayden 25-Oct-17 08:45 PM

Joe's already set up @beyondskyrim.org emails for some members, I wonder how hard it would be to integrate something similar into the website

Joseph Crowell 26-Oct-17 02:54 AM

I can do recruitment forms in each province page

Hayden 26-Oct-17 04:02 AM

Why not a centralised recruitment form which the member can then pick a province from and keep it all as centralised as possible?

Joseph Crowell 26-Oct-17 04:53 AM

Because you can't choose the send to address based on a combo box

Or maybe you can but I don't think so

Hayden 26-Oct-17 05:08 AM

Combo box is like a multiple choice thing is it?

Joseph Crowell 26-Oct-17 05:20 AM

Let me experiment with it and set it up. Preferably you would get multiple check boxes and if they check more than say three just put them in Atronach forge. Of course the forge is one of the options. (edited)

Does that work?

If I can get it to work that way

I might have to custom code the plugin

Instead of using contact form 7

Hayden 26-Oct-17 06:52 AM

I just imagined it as a 'you can pick only one' and if they choose the cross province option it defaults to the AF

If they do have a specific province then they just tick that box and it gets sent to whomever it needs

Joseph Crowell 26-Oct-17 07:07 AM

ok

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Oct-17 07:17 AM

That would be ideal, honestly

Bellatrix 26-Oct-17 01:08 PM

I’d be fine with it. I’m just a bit out of the loop.

Hannes821 27-Oct-17 04:58 PM

What Hayden sketches down sounds more formal and professional. Like it.

Robcbwilson 01-Nov-17 03:01 AM

Just a gentle reminder that we are releasing the first newsletter at the end of the month. So far, I have only received an update from Elsweyr and Atmora. Ideally, we need your updates by the middle of the month so that we can have it ready by the deadline.

The update can be as short or as long as you want. All we will do is collate it and publish (we will have a draft ready as soon as we can after everything is submitted) so everyone can see what we will publish

Hannes821 01-Nov-17 09:02 AM

To be precise you had been asking for a simple Screenshot or 2 and 2-10 lines of text, is that right?

Maybe one or two general introduction sentences, one about sind and one about the current status?

Sorry mobile t9

Robcbwilson 01-Nov-17 09:04 AM

Correct. A progress update which can be as long or as short as each team wishes. Some screenshots would be brilliant to showcase what each team has achieved of late

Hannes821 01-Nov-17 09:04 AM

One about aims was the sentence

Robcbwilson 01-Nov-17 09:05 AM

Yes, aims or goals for the new year could also be included if teams want to release that type of info

Hannes821 01-Nov-17 09:06 AM

I guess we only ask for Minimum of info to be Safe, so No Time schedules for the puplic unless a Team wants it.

Example: We are the atmora project and joined Beyond Skyrim in April this year. Our Goal is to create the lost continent in the North. We have this and this Plans, this and this is done, this and this is currently Work in Progress. We Hope to Release blablabla and you can visit ja Here... Maybe (thats Just a poor 1 minute Brainstorming)

Robcbwilson 01-Nov-17 09:12 AM

Thanks

it’s a good starting point for sure

Hannes821 01-Nov-17 09:21 AM

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Nov-17 05:54 AM

Ugh

Flenarn being difficult again

He's getting angry at me because Linton was talking shit about Cascadia in the public server. Now he's rescinding all ties and offers to help Morrowind. Called BS a shithole and stormed off

In August

That was when Linton posted "Cascadia treats their members like it's a full time job," which is like, fine, there's no real issue with that. But he's just lost his shit

Joseph Crowell 03-Nov-17 07:25 AM

I didn't know he was back

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Nov-17 07:46 AM

He's not, he was PMing me and ctrl+f'ing the public server to find dirt on himself

Joseph Crowell 03-Nov-17 09:49 AM

but we don't care about him

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Nov-17 09:54 AM

Oh neither do I

I was just ranting

Hannes821 03-Nov-17 01:45 PM

Remooooove

But honestly I don't see the problem with that full time comment

It's on the subject level, it's not insulting or anything

Something that is an opinion which can be debated should not be a reason for such aggressive actions

It feels like "I don't share your opinion - okay then I have to hate you" This guy should rather have asked for the why's

Rubaedo 03-Nov-17 01:57 PM

Flenarn is notoriously easy to set off. He takes pretty much anything short of complete obedience and aquiescence to his whims to be a direct insult. There are more than a few times when he was with us in MW where he threatened to leave the project if we didn't remove certain members without warning them or giving them a chance to reform first.

Hannes821 03-Nov-17 01:58 PM

Which clearly disqualifies himself as a team member

If it's that hard as you say

I could never trust a person that threatens me. Seriously how does he think this would work?

Robcbwilson 04-Nov-17 06:39 AM

Is he a member of Roscrea now, or is that another Flenarn?

Bellatrix 04-Nov-17 08:39 AM

he always was a member of Roscrea

although he hasn't been active for ages

to be fair, he gave as good as he got with the Cascadia stuff - he was forever telling cyrodiil and Roscrea that we weren't professional enough

Robcbwilson 04-Nov-17 08:44 AM

OK

Hannes821 04-Nov-17 01:41 PM

Then it would be on him to give suggestions if he really knows that well what's going wrong. People should act more like they are a part of the team, not a critical consumer

I must say I would not have patience for this kind of people. And I am glad that anathem, tascani, mangarian, yaranik and others in my team think the same way. And I think our team has a good spirit. But I know each team has to act consistent by the rules people are used to, so if you always had these people and it was normal, I am afraid there is not much you can do. Changing a team's attitude is very hard. Maybe talk with your core members if you want to work with such people.

The primary aim is not to sort out people - that can always only be a last resort if everyone agrees, likely even the person in question himself - but the real aim is to preserve and develop an atmosphere of cooperation and trust and creativity - you cannot have this with people who question standards without the patience to discuss how to improve them with you.

I mean a basic will of contribution and taking responsibility is important or others will learn that and do the same

Bellatrix 04-Nov-17 03:40 PM

I personally don't' agree with him. As in we developed and released Bruma just fine doing it the way we do it. That's not to say we're perfect, but I like that there's such a mix of people with differing amounts of time that they can donate to the project. Limiting it to people who have enough time to effectively be professional developers seems a bit daft to me but what the heck that's their choice.

The bit that did annoy me was his inability to see that there's more than one way of going at the problem.

Joseph Crowell 04-Nov-17 05:58 PM

textbook narcissism

Bellatrix 04-Nov-17 06:06 PM

I think it’s more affluenza - as far as I’m aware, his dad bankrolls him so he doesn’t need to earn a living like the rest of us

Rubaedo 04-Nov-17 10:04 PM

He is... very wealthy. And very braggy about it.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Nov-17 10:43 PM

He bought a stock in Mojang in 2010 and now has upwards of 70 million, or at least he claims go to

*to

Hayden 04-Nov-17 11:12 PM

Didn't know Mojang was even publicly traded at that point.

Hannes821 05-Nov-17 12:45 AM

Is mojang a company on share market ?

Hannes821 05-Nov-17 07:11 AM

Or do you mean that Chinese board game

Larrian (Morrowind) 05-Nov-17 07:21 AM

It's the company that made Minecraft

Hannes821 05-Nov-17 08:19 AM

Thanks for the explanation

Bellatrix 06-Nov-17 02:13 AM

What do we do about Thras now they’ve left? I guess we should announce it and move their forum to the archive?

Kelretu 06-Nov-17 02:40 AM

I deleted the Thras role from the discord.

Joseph Crowell 06-Nov-17 02:57 AM

I'll clean up the public Discord when I get home

Bellatrix 06-Nov-17 03:02 AM

Who would be the best person to draft an announcement? And should we run it past Thras before posting?

I mean we probably should but the announcement in the forum is so hostile ot makes me think a clean break and getting on with it is best for BS. (edited)

Kelretu 06-Nov-17 03:05 AM

Linton is pretty good at writing formal announcements.

I wouldn't run it past Thras either.

Bellatrix 06-Nov-17 03:08 AM

Maybe we should ask in the forum post where they’re going? If they stay on DC I guess it would be easy just to move their forum structure into an entirely new DC project area?

Hayden 06-Nov-17 04:46 AM

I doubt they have much use for DC, it's hard enough to keep track of their progress anyway. Their leave doesn't surprise me, they've had seemingly 0 contact with any other teams, as well as seemed to be going down their own path with stuff

Joseph Crowell 06-Nov-17 07:36 AM

@Bellatrix is Nago still a Roscrea lead?

thought I remembered him maybe stepping down?

or maybe not

Bellatrix 06-Nov-17 07:37 AM

No he hasn’t stepped down. Actually he’s around at the moment.

Joseph Crowell 06-Nov-17 07:37 AM

alright I'll give him the roles on here and on the public Discord then

Hannes821 06-Nov-17 09:52 AM

We have a few members from and no bad relations to thras. Still we never talk about thras things in my team, so that announcement surprised me when I was told this morning. But it was visible for quite some time. Kettlewitch (dave) recently told me he is 3d lead of skywind if I recall correctly and that he would leave all bs teams including thras so it should not be his decision to remove thras recently

Hannes821 06-Nov-17 02:39 PM

Maybe they also left to get him back? Feels like they had hard times inside as well

No idea

Hannes821 06-Nov-17 03:22 PM

I think you saw that salty statement of that one guy leaving skywind?

If it's only 50% true then skywind has problems and only a few people also lacking experience

Not validated information though

Verified was the word

Robcbwilson 06-Nov-17 03:49 PM

Could we add Stark back to BS? He is active on Roscrea and or IB

Kelretu 06-Nov-17 03:50 PM

He is?

Pretty sure he is not in IB

Joseph Crowell 06-Nov-17 03:51 PM

He is not active on IB

Kelretu 06-Nov-17 03:53 PM

And he hasn't written anything in Roscrea chats either.

Robcbwilson 06-Nov-17 03:53 PM

Well, I am just passing on a message

Kelretu 06-Nov-17 03:54 PM

From whom?

Robcbwilson 06-Nov-17 03:54 PM

Griffix

Bellatrix 06-Nov-17 03:58 PM

he's not active on Roscrea

Robcbwilson 06-Nov-17 04:01 PM

Ok

In that case, the correct decision was made

I was given incorrect advice

Joseph Crowell 06-Nov-17 04:13 PM

Will at least now we know who the spy was

Hannes821 07-Nov-17 09:11 AM

Hannes821 07-Nov-17 09:19 AM

It's strange. Things should run down more in a common sense way. But I guess griffix and friends just are victims of their own bad mood. More talking with us would have helped

Hayden 07-Nov-17 09:33 AM

Honestly, if you don't want to be here then fuck off. If you have a problem with other members then bring it up with your team lead. Team leads are leads for a reason and aren't stupid, if your problem isn't worth their time then clearly it isn't a problem at all and get over it.

Too much drama and too little work getting done

Hannes821 07-Nov-17 03:45 PM

i hope you talk about them and not about me hayden ^^ i am not used to hear you say such things

Kelretu 07-Nov-17 04:12 PM

I believe that was meant in a general matter. Definitely agree with the statement that there is too much unnecessary drama. In my opinion it's mostly due to a lack of proper communication and structural issues.

Hannes821 07-Nov-17 05:11 PM

Yes I understand that

Bellatrix 07-Nov-17 06:36 PM

Dunno about communication, I think it’s more some people just like drama. There’s a very large majority of the BS team who manage to successfully mod without drama.

Joseph Crowell 07-Nov-17 09:58 PM

Yep

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 01:04 AM

Hayden 08-Nov-17 01:44 AM

Definitely wasn't towards you @Hannes821, apologies if it came across like that. As Kelretu said it was a general statement towards anyone who feels the need to cause unnecessary drama.

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 01:58 AM

Alright I was just surprised

Thx

Hayden 08-Nov-17 02:05 AM

I'm just really over a lot of the drama that doesn't really resolve anything, it kind of just keeps happening over and over with the same stuff being brought up.

Larrian (Morrowind) 08-Nov-17 02:05 AM

Agreed

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 08:22 AM

Yes ofc agreed, unnecessary drama.

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 08:38 AM

In the light of Thras leaving, should we consider making changes to Ss5.2 of the charter? In its current form it can happen that a team is cut down to one member who doesn't have to do anything other than say he is active every few weeks.

Robcbwilson 08-Nov-17 08:39 AM

I agree! I know that 1shoe mentioned some sort of regular check in for all provinces to show some progress

I thought at the time it was a good idea

How to measure it may prove more tricky although we could come up with a list and expect teams to manage to achieve some of them to be “active”

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 08:43 AM

the gits are accessible to most team leads (edited)

I think use of it should be required

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 08:44 AM

I think how much progress the provinces present should be up to them, but it should be discretion to the council if it proves that actual development is going on.

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 08:44 AM

maybe give all council members access to at least look at git activity for provinces (edited)

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 08:45 AM

Mmh, git alone might not show all that is actually going on. How about this:

Robcbwilson 08-Nov-17 08:46 AM

Yes, there is an awful lot of activity that doesn’t result in a GIT update

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 08:46 AM

true

concepts on a trello for example

writing usually goes on a google drive long before it makes it to git

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 08:47 AM

The git activity is evaluated by council members every three months. If one of them feels that a team seems like it doesn't have development going on, the accused team can provide other prove of development. Which is then evaluated by the whole council.

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 08:47 AM

that sounds fair to me

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 08:50 AM

It needs a bit more refinement obviously, but this way the teams don't have to put effort into showing progress unless it looks like they don't have any.

Robcbwilson 08-Nov-17 09:09 AM

It must be done in a way that does not feel punitive. We don’t want to stoke any more anti Council feeling

Hayden 08-Nov-17 09:11 AM

What about a quarterly check in for all teams? All it requires is a team lead to drop a post into a thread on DC saying 'all is good' and everyone can just keep doing what they're doing

Robcbwilson 08-Nov-17 09:11 AM

The newsletter can do that!

Hayden 08-Nov-17 09:11 AM

When they start missing check ins or other leads show concern then they can start showing evidence?

Robcbwilson 08-Nov-17 09:11 AM

It is every two months

Hayden 08-Nov-17 09:11 AM

Oh yeah excellent idea, newsletter could definitely do that job

Robcbwilson 08-Nov-17 09:12 AM

It will be very obvious if there is no progress

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 09:13 AM

"What about a quarterly check in for all teams? All it requires is a team lead to drop a post into a thread on DC saying 'all is good' and everyone can just keep doing what they're doing" That's exactly the issue I was describing earlier.

I think the suggestion I made is not really punitive. It doesn't require the teams to do anything they wouldn't do unless their progress is questionable.

Robcbwilson 08-Nov-17 09:15 AM

OK, we can formalise it on the forums too

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 09:15 AM

Yeah, I'm currently writing something up that I want to submit to council discussion.

I wouldn't use the newsletter for judging the progress though. It's a PR measure and teams might decide to withhold progress that isn't presentable or progress that is not of a visible nature.

Robcbwilson 08-Nov-17 09:22 AM

True, but it is an indicator nonetheless

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 09:23 AM

Yeah.

Robcbwilson 08-Nov-17 09:23 AM

We all know what real progress looks like so if a teams newsletter updates are sparse then it is possible that something is amiss

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 09:24 AM

honestly regular PR activity puts you well beyond scrutiny in the first place

Robcbwilson 08-Nov-17 09:24 AM

Indeed

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 09:25 AM

IB is actually trying to decide what activity to put on this one and what to put off to the next one

Robcbwilson 08-Nov-17 09:26 AM

Nice! I am also planning what Elsweyr will have on its next one

It is a good motivator to me to have things done for each issue

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 09:30 AM

honestly I haven't been as big a part of my team's progress lately as I'd like

it's mostly been Kelretu adn Escha and Macho and ub3rman

the writing team is doing things I believe also but not in public chat

Hayden has been busy with IRL work but has approval to use BS as his college project so we'll be seeing a lot more out of him

Veloscirascal has been making some awesome clutter (edited)

Robcbwilson 08-Nov-17 09:58 AM

I won’t lie, I am always excited by what IB produces so am looking forward to seeing the progress

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:18 AM

well, we dont use gitlab and merge with merge plugins. But at least half of you are in atmora (and you are all invited to be there) so i am very sure you trust us if i simply say we do have constant progress lol

i think it should go down to just "seeing progress" and the more we collaborate, that will be very easy to say

like, anyone who asks for it, can get access to our current build

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 10:20 AM

really Thras was the first one that seemed to just wnat to be there without making any progress (edited)

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:20 AM

lol yeah

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 10:20 AM

we've never had that happen before

sorry meant Thras

it kind of took us by surprise, that's why there wasn't any rules to account for that situation in the charter

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:21 AM

i thought you meant an ironic joke which was okay as well, more like you clab on our shoulders and say "we wouldnt think of you in the first place"

also, there was a Cyrodiil implementer, an italian guy, he suggested us to patch the vanilla esms in similar style; to keep the esm working eventhough its getting 50+mbs

now is the time to request his help again

we are getting close to there

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 10:22 AM

I'm not sure what this 50mb thing you're talking about is (edited)

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:22 AM

illiac bay, do you use a patch for vanilla esms?

because that italian implementer said all of bs does (?)

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 10:22 AM

oh that doesn't start at 50mb

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 10:23 AM

In the version I'm currently writing the progress check is an optional tool for the council.

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:23 AM

maybe sorry i am new to the topic ^^ CK simply starts to make problems now

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 10:23 AM

yes it's a record count, not file size

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:24 AM

@Kelretu so you took that constitutional update and work on it, kel? Want to see my old draft i once wrote ? ah okay, thx for clarifying that Joe

its half a year old and doesnt cover a thras scenario though ^^

still, there are a few points

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 10:25 AM

Oh yeah, nearly forgot about that.

Can you link it to me again?

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:25 AM

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BztSdvM3C4kVT3V6ZmVWZnI5YzA

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 10:25 AM

Thanks. :)

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:25 AM

its a google writing doc, a word and a pdf

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 10:25 AM

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16n_UBSqDQadcclJFJSiI_JJ1Y36wWg01/view?usp=sharing

Skyrim.esm

1

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:25 AM

thx

so what does this skyrim esm do?

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 10:26 AM

that's the stripped esm

it strips a lot of records from the Skyrim worldspace

like all the landscape and cell

to make room for us to make more records

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:26 AM

could you explain me what striping actually does? sorry if i have dumb questions

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 10:27 AM

stripping mean to pull things out

remove

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 10:27 AM

It gets rid of a lot of unnecessary stuff

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:27 AM

aha, a cleaned esm. But what is then defined as "unnecessary" ?

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 10:28 AM

Kinda like a dummy .esm

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:28 AM

ah only for CK

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 10:28 AM

Quests, the skyrim worldspace etc.

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:28 AM

but if i fire the game, i can still use the old one ofc

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 10:28 AM

yes only for CK

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:28 AM

its just a workaround for Work

okay thanks

;-) great thats easy to understand

Joseph Crowell 08-Nov-17 10:28 AM

then switch back to cleaned regular ESM for in game (edited)

otherwise you fall in to the void in Skyrim because there is no ground

(edited)

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:29 AM

alright.

so far we went with the policy of "no edits on vanilla esms" (leave this to USLEEP and what the user wants to do)

for the game part

is that your approach as well?

i mean, cleaning vanilla is not our job

or we get possible conflicts with USLEEP and other fix mods

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 10:31 AM

Yeah, we don't change anything on the vanilla .esms, this is just for development.

1

Hannes821 08-Nov-17 10:31 AM

unoficial skyrim overhaul

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 10:42 AM

Mmh now I feel like I'm overthinking my version of Ss5.2 a bit.

Kelretu 08-Nov-17 11:25 AM

Here's how it looks so far, if anyone wants to take a look.

Subsection_5.2.odt

17.68 KB

Kelretu 09-Nov-17 04:14 AM

Any thoughts so far? Currently starting to write up a forum thread for additional discussion.

Hannes821 09-Nov-17 06:35 AM

checking

no sign of progress, and/ or no active members

well i would be precise

OR

because either is a reason to say goodbye

2/3 majority?

in a major decision involving another project?

thats against all rules i read so far in the charter ^^

i think it might be neccessary but its a change of policy, that should be stated very clearly

formerly it was like decisions that touch a project need to be taken without any voices against, including the project talked about

but then, less crucial decisions should also be able to be taken with only qualified majority (66%+)

since this would be a differnet philosphy of decision making

i am all for it, but it must be clear to everybody here

when i suggested that half a year ago, many people had been against it

also, please define quarterly check

you need transparent checking criterias

for example, in a quarter, growth of the esm, new ressources or landscape, new interiors or story writing

bonus for accomplished implementation

else it is getting a normative evaluation that could in theory be abused

Bellatrix 09-Nov-17 07:04 AM

I don’t even know if a project that’s dependent on BSAssets could leave?

Or rather we’d need a clear procedure in place because at that point they’d either be taking a load out our assets with them or would have to stop using any BSAssets? Also what about the height map for provinces that use the BSHeight map (that’s all remaining provinces except Roscrea isn’t it?)

Hannes821 09-Nov-17 07:21 AM

i guess only projects without BSAssets and common heightmap would ever leave (?)

put in a sentence that they cant use that

Kelretu 09-Nov-17 07:22 AM

This subsection is only for closing inactive projects though.

1shoedpunk 09-Nov-17 07:57 AM

I don’t have an oft reader on my phone, I will check it out when I can

If we unanimously vote to allow a 2/3 vote on specific questions that amendment would supersede previous language at least in that case

Kelretu 09-Nov-17 08:52 AM

Yeah, the reason that it is not an unanimous vote in this case is mostly to prevent one man teams or teams that are intentionally not making progress.

And I believe that I already made it quite hard to close projects in the proposal and prevent abuse made out of spite.

About projects leaving which have dependencies on BSAssets: as per the charter, the irrevocable right is only given to the "Beyond Skyrim community".

Not to the teams themselves, so they'd need specific permissions from the individual authors if they want to continue using it.

Actually it could be questioned if projects leaving the collaboration are even allowed to use their province specific assets which were made in the belief that they were used in Beyond Skyrim. But I think that'd be taking it a bit too far.

Joseph Crowell 09-Nov-17 04:40 PM

I think the option to store the wip files on git needs to be made a requirement

We don't know what Thras did or didn't do because everything was on their Google drive which most didn't have access to

Kelretu 09-Nov-17 06:22 PM

Well that's the whole point of this proposal. It is a tool with which the council is able to request evidence for development. I don't think we should force the teams to use git if they don't want to.

Actually its not the whole point, but definitely a major one.

Hayden 10-Nov-17 12:35 AM

I think we do need some kind of 'baseline requirements' for projects though

Eg. Git. The one program that is used by all teams. It is also the method we use to distribute BSAssets (edited)

Not having access to nor contributing to BSAssets is kind of against the whole idea of a province collaboration

I get there's other aspects to take into account but BSAssets is really the hub of all things shared

Larrian (Morrowind) 10-Nov-17 12:43 AM

Yup

Totally agreed

Hannes821 10-Nov-17 04:55 PM

"request evidence for development." needs to be defined, as in, when can you request.

also, we are a team of Gdrivers

and dont use assets

like, first of all, we should write down the obvious to be clear: what is progress, and when can it be doubted?

the methods of finding answers should be added after that is solved

Hannes821 10-Nov-17 05:11 PM

as mentioned, files and texts would be indicators

sometimes also member activity, but not memes and offtopic for sure

best would be an updated esm every few weeks/months and implementation going on ofc

Joseph Crowell 10-Nov-17 07:21 PM

I think providing the council access to the drives so they can read, not necessarily write to the contents could work (edited)

it's just being open and having open development

at least within the collaboration

and I think that's a basic level of sharing necessary for us to have a functional collaboration

Hayden 11-Nov-17 12:03 AM

Have you been sharing assets between Roscrea and Atmora? I was under the impression you two were pretty closely related when it came to asset development for the two, I know when you first joined there was a lot of talk about getting all the lore up to date and on the same page, was just curious if assets are too? If so, a lot of shared assets would belong in BSAssets in preparation for when both teams release

Bellatrix 11-Nov-17 03:05 AM

We’ve shared lore and had some discussions about shared ancient weapons sets but no assets in BSAssets as of now. Roscrea is making an imperial mithiril set that will be in assets for anyone to use well.

Hannes821 11-Nov-17 03:34 AM

We added some roscrea related texts with nick

We also want to add a khajit npc that also is important in elsweyer, samurai healer did prepare basic writing. We also would like to add some items and stories for our Imperial and dark elf characters

It's "only" stories and names so far.

We also use kaleds ships and a wooden mead hall by audz but that's more atronach forge stuff recently done for both

Once i was interested in a hill grave mesh but there was no response... We would have edited it for a destroyed snow version anyways. It is hard to use assets of other teams, our stuff is old and frozen

Kelretu 11-Nov-17 03:52 AM

If you did't get a response just ask again. People are busy sometimes and just forget to reply.

Hannes821 11-Nov-17 04:53 AM

Sure I was just thinking to do it myself

Wasn't important as well

So for the leads that are not in the pr server, we will give the newsletter another 2,3 weeks so all teams have a good chance to prepare it. To still celebrate the sixth birthday of skyrim today I made a question and answer post I already planned 2 weeks ago as filler, so we are still present on this important day for skyrim modding.

Robcbwilson 11-Nov-17 05:17 AM

Thanks @Hannes821

The newsletter is due for release on the 30th of November, so still time to get something ready for it

Hannes821 11-Nov-17 05:22 AM

Ah before I forget, talking about cooperation, we also planned vulcano assets together with people from mw and illiac, to be done in atronach forge. Sorry didn't invest in that lately

Robcbwilson 11-Nov-17 05:23 AM

I seem to remember Hayden and Larrian working on something volcanic

Hayden 11-Nov-17 05:34 AM

How are those assets going to be distributed throughout the teams if we're all not using BSAssets? Don't we all need one .esm to reduce duplicate problems and having to replace stuff?

Kelretu 11-Nov-17 05:37 AM

I presume everyone looking to use these assets has to use BSAssets?

Or at least a stripped version of it with the records the team needs? Not an expert on those stuff, but that should avoid duplicates.

Joseph Crowell 11-Nov-17 06:30 AM

yeah it would need to be in BSAssets

Bellatrix 11-Nov-17 09:07 AM

Yeah. We’d be putting our sharing sets into BSAssets.

Hannes821 11-Nov-17 11:42 AM

You can definitely pack it in there. But if we would use it with different textures and maybe even shaders I think I would just include it as mesh in our folder structure as any other mesh. At the moment it looks like we will only share very very few assets with the other teams BSAs. Changing the system for 2 mountain cliffs makes no sense for Atmora at this point and would also conflict with the team responsibility for content and methods rule that we have. I would support a change for our merge process if it would be beneficial.

But that's only for Atmora, we have a bit of a special story, all other teams are already in the assets so that makes sense for them

Hannes821 11-Nov-17 11:59 AM

You knew we are far in progress when we joined already and we explicitly talked about what we are expected to do with git and bsassets and you told us that this makes no sense to change it that late. Also you said teams set their own methods. If we can only use atronach forge assets if we copy the structure of other teams it means that we are better off working on it ourselves. I don't think that is a good direction. We, especially me continuously pushed for more cross provincial collaboration and took as much responsibility for it as I could. I understand that it should be in bsassets for all the teams that use them but I am voting not to make a certain system hard requirement for new assets in general as this would be micromanagement through the back door in our case.

By the way I resorted all our assets in September and October... So I spent 8 weeks on quality checks. When I made collisions for the Aquina (?) farmhouse for elsweyer, I saw some duplicates and individual naming conventions

Hannes821 11-Nov-17 12:20 PM

Maybe I misunderstood you. It sounded like "that vulcano assets have to be used only within the bs assets " to me.

If it was about access, you know you can check our Gdrive at any time

Kelretu 11-Nov-17 01:20 PM

"duplicates and individual naming conventions" It is probably best if you never get to see the IB files, Hannes.

Bellatrix 11-Nov-17 02:06 PM

we should have a tidy up

Hannes821 11-Nov-17 02:07 PM

I may have misunderstood anyways. I slept only 3 hours and we went to hospital with my baby girl last night...

Now with some sleep I cannot imagine you say atronach forge assets are exclusively for bs assets

It's just a general question for all other teams in the first place, sorry about long texts

and maybe at some point we would change to that system but not as it stands right now

Hannes821 11-Nov-17 02:29 PM

If we would use bs assets then I guess all our resources would have to be integrated, some additional gigabytes. On top of that, some are Nexus permissions of authors, but at the time we got them we only asked in the name of Atmora. So unless you need our assets and we use yours and we get expanded permissions or redo these resources ourselves all, it seems not beneficial to share assets, would just bloat up file size for all of us considerably in my opinion.

And merging with version control is cool I guess but we would change a running system for something new out of the blue, we had used merge plugins by mataor quite a while and understood everything we need

I can upload our latest build in your folder system, and also development folders if that helps?

We also agreed on those terms upon joining that beyond Skyrim gets all files if the team would ever get inactive ofc

Kelretu 11-Nov-17 02:38 PM

"If we would use bs assets then I guess all our resources would have to be integrated, some additional gigabytes." No, you wouldn't have to merge your stuff into BSAssets. No need to share anything you don't want to. You'd just have a second master file.

Just pointing that out, not really my topic.

Though as far as I understand BSAssets helps to avoid the record limit and conflict issues arising with different versions of the same file. (edited)

Hannes821 11-Nov-17 03:15 PM

Oh okay. I didn't know that m

But let's say we would publish end of the next year, would that mean we would always also release all finished bs assets with us (even those we don't use? )

And well, whatever we have full permission for, we are happy to give you ofc, I said earlier. It's more that we have only limited Atmora permissions for a couple of assets

Maybe I can search for assets we can share and upload them in your git?

I would also help the person who is planning to clean it, but I am to Busy right now to work on it, and I am not so familiar with bs assets intended structure either

Conflict issue with 2+ versions of the same file? If I edited a mesh in nifskope and renamed it, would there still be such a conflict issue @Kelretu ?

(noticeable changes like update tangents, uv map, shaders and textures )

Kelretu 11-Nov-17 03:26 PM

Well if you renamed it there would probably not a conflict. But you'd basically be giving the players two types of the same file so it only makes sense if the change is severe.

I was mostly referring to meshes not being updated simultaneously though.

Hannes821 11-Nov-17 03:29 PM

Yes ofc we don't produce duplicate resources on purpose. I will upload things we could maybe share the next days.

For the vulcano mountains for example lucidstorm1 in my team is experimenting with parallax shaders, snow, ice and rocks. I don't think we would use the same meshes in the end...

Kelretu 11-Nov-17 03:32 PM

Probably not.

Which parallax by the way? ENB one or the vanilla one?

Hannes821 11-Nov-17 03:40 PM

He is changing the shader type in nifskope

Bs shader type of the mesh

Kelretu 11-Nov-17 03:45 PM

Ah okay, so the vanilla one.

Hannes821 11-Nov-17 03:53 PM

Ah he mentioned that for some shaders an enb would be required and I was sceptical as I don't like adding requirements

Kelretu 11-Nov-17 04:13 PM

Yeah, the issue I'm having with that is that it is not yet supported for SE.

Hayden 11-Nov-17 04:16 PM

Regarding BSAssets, we would essentially have to update it separately to province .esms right? When we have multiple releases out that is

1shoedpunk 11-Nov-17 07:23 PM

Ideally there will just be one pc release of it

But yeah

Right now we just throw the latest one up with bruma

But once another team releases it will need to be spun off to its own mod

Hayden 12-Nov-17 01:05 AM

We could always just release new versions of it with every new release, the next BS release would have all Bruma assets + the rest?

Joseph Crowell 12-Nov-17 01:14 AM

I think making a seperate release of assets constantly updated is the best option and make it a dependency on all sub projects that use it

like SKSE is a dependency for all projects that use it

or the unofficial patches are a dependency for many mods

Hannes821 12-Nov-17 03:02 AM

But if the full updated bs assets is required as Master i see 2 issues : 1) old files once publish can hardly be modified 2) All teams would have the full assets as requirement which means that for some it will explode the Xbox memory limits (?)

Bellatrix 12-Nov-17 03:27 AM

We had to split bruma into several packages for Xbox so can easily do the same with assets. It's going to be really difficult to ensure compatibility and avoid massive duplication if we don't use one common BSAssets

We should try and get our user base to put pressure on Bethesda (or whoever) to up the limit for BS mods though - I know we won't be going through the CC but I don't get why they couldn't make an exception for massive mods like us, skywind, enderal etc which are effectively new games rather than mods.

Hannes821 12-Nov-17 03:31 AM

Well we are maybe already seen as rivals or potential rivals, who knows, at least enderal is a "real studio" already right?

I would not hope for help from above to be honest even though that would be great. But now that I think about it, sure if we have a few objects from bs assets we use and you are really okay with adding things to there we could add it as Master dependency.

But for like 5 statics it would not make sense for us in my opinion

You know we would force users to download additional 5 gigabytes for maybe 5 megabytes that are used

Joseph Crowell 12-Nov-17 03:52 AM

@Hannes821 I think you misunderstand what BSAssets is

it only holds those files that are shared between projects

all other assets are contained in the individual team repos

if your use of BSAssets is small then there is no problem with you pulling files from it to Atmora

as long as you push those changes back up to assets for us to use

Hannes821 12-Nov-17 05:07 AM

OK great. Yes I did missunderstand it.

Ofc I would upload all assets we have permission for (we did or we got free permission), and that includes if we alter bs assets. Ofc you could use all of that.

Yesterday was not a good day for me

Bellatrix 12-Nov-17 08:51 AM

Apart from Roscrea is anyone planning on making new dragon claws?

Hannes821 12-Nov-17 02:08 PM

I guess there was no dragon cult elsewhere

Maybe brumas northern tip which is published and maybe the western border of morrowind?

Meglos (Morrowind) 12-Nov-17 02:35 PM

We will have some Nordic ruins but not sure about new claws

1

Hannes821 12-Nov-17 05:36 PM

SilverScorpion just purposely tried to delete our MQ06 writing and others as act of revenge

he was kicked months ago for spamming and trolling poosts

luckily we have copies

and its unclear why he found a permission link

but this tells everything about that person

1shoedpunk 12-Nov-17 05:57 PM

If another Beyond Skyrim team releases on XBox we will have to work out a reconfiguration of the current build of bsassets

the .esm is the same

but it actually includes a lot of assets that aren't in the real bsassets because they wouldn't fit in the other packages.

Hannes821 13-Nov-17 02:10 AM

So bs assets needs to be filtered and resorted? What is the Xbox limit of memory for all mods on the machine? Wasn't it 4gb? And can we calculate with bsa compression to save space? Atmora is currently uncompressed 4,5 GB.

Joseph Crowell 13-Nov-17 03:15 AM

I'm sure IB and Morrowind could use some some of that dank ice

Hannes821 13-Nov-17 10:07 AM

could i get access to the git (or a link?)

i would upload ice, stone, rock and mountain stuff what i find good,

or do you want to check these first in atronach forge`?

maybe make a quality check channel there?

i think that would be pretty handy

so we get a formalised check standart on assets

right now i feel its just "whoever does it, does it good

" Edit: however it is done, it is good (edited)

Bellatrix 13-Nov-17 10:27 AM

you need to register here if you haven't already

https://gitlab.com/users/sign_in

Sign in

GitLab.com

once that's done if you PM me either your username or the email address you registered with I'll add you to BSAssets

1shoedpunk 13-Nov-17 12:54 PM

@Hannes821 its a total of 5 gb

We had to compress our textures below vanilla standards in some cases and heavily optimize and pack everything

When it comes time for you to make a console release I would be happy to do the same for atmora

It took a lot of trial and error. But tbh if there are just a couple meshes in bsassets you wanted you don’t need to add bsassets as a dependency

It would make more sense to just copy them over

Hannes821 13-Nov-17 01:12 PM

Yes that's what I was guessing. However I am still happy if I can contribute with our files to your success and you can give us feedback. The reason why I wanted to join since the beginning

Hannes821 13-Nov-17 05:13 PM

i am in, it even rememberd my password

hmm i think i need to learn that a bit

Joseph Crowell 13-Nov-17 05:27 PM

Yup use it you'll need git for Windows

And a git client

I prefer Tortoise git

Just search for them on Google

Hannes821 15-Nov-17 04:56 AM

Here, maybe you can take some inspiration for your application Form... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yb3DC_setIbx-NhJ_wzNWF_Z1zRM7lMl5lIkLN989Bw/edit?usp=drivesdk

Unbenannte Tabelle

Tabellenblatt1 Personal information Name Nickname Age Favorite game Played skyrim Uploaded a mod Creation kit experience Fields of prior Expertise, Yes, No Level design exterior Dungeon design interior Quest implementation Scripting Texturing Graphics in general Video editing Mu...

I will see if I have time for git today

Hannes821 15-Nov-17 06:01 PM

at least i downloaded git for windows and the turtoise

gn

Hannes821 17-Nov-17 12:17 PM

hey, Rob wanted to remind IB, Cyrodiil and Morrowind that we don’t yet have an update for the newsletter. 2 weeks still

Robcbwilson 17-Nov-17 12:17 PM

Thanks @Hannes821

1

Hayden 17-Nov-17 06:35 PM

I'll be doing ours once im home from work (IB)

1

Robcbwilson 18-Nov-17 12:58 AM

Awesome, thanks @Hayden

Bellatrix 18-Nov-17 11:17 AM

https://flic.kr/p/D3rY7j

20171104131521_1

Explore claire_mcwhirter's photos on Flickr. claire_mcwhirter has uploaded 488 photos to Flickr.

https://flic.kr/p/219yQqn

20171006154530_1

Explore claire_mcwhirter's photos on Flickr. claire_mcwhirter has uploaded 488 photos to Flickr.

https://flic.kr/p/219yQJi

claire_mcwhirter

20171004004322_1_1024

Explore claire_mcwhirter's photos on Flickr. claire_mcwhirter has uploaded 488 photos to Flickr.

could we include thse 3 images for the Roscrea section

Robcbwilson 18-Nov-17 11:47 AM

For sure! I am away from my PC until Monday, but will add them then

Hannes821 18-Nov-17 05:25 PM

i can, if you dont want to wait

3 in a row, i suppose

i will send you a screenshot and you tell me if you like it

alright?

(just want to make sure)

this is how it looks for now in the draft

Bellatrix 18-Nov-17 05:50 PM

Looks great.

Hannes821 18-Nov-17 07:54 PM

cool happy to hear

markus said he will talk with cyrodiil. then, we have something from all teams; i mean Hayden said he has prepared something for IB. and, well we dont have Blackmarsh content yet

Bellatrix 19-Nov-17 02:38 AM

Im also Cyrodiil. We’re doing something we’re just a bit slow.

1

1shoedpunk 20-Nov-17 10:28 PM

Yeah, Linton's been interrogating us.

1

Hannes821 21-Nov-17 11:37 AM

cool

Hannes821 22-Nov-17 05:30 AM

one week left, this is where we are

Larrian (Morrowind) 22-Nov-17 06:10 AM

I might work with Meglos tomorrow and put one together for MW

Bellatrix 22-Nov-17 07:12 AM

Oh wow - who made the outfit for hammerfell? That’s gorgeous!

Joseph Crowell 22-Nov-17 07:21 AM

Escha

he's really gotten good

Bellatrix 22-Nov-17 07:26 AM

Yeah. They’re stunning!

Actually to be fair we have loads of really talented people it’s just really cool to see things that look so different to skyrim.

Hayden 22-Nov-17 08:01 AM

Hammerfell really does the job at being different to Skyrim

Joseph Crowell 22-Nov-17 08:03 AM

and Morrowind

Rob keeps getting better and it's amazing how well Larrian is doing already

1

Hannes821 22-Nov-17 08:23 AM

would suggest making the redguard smaller,

yes talked with meglos

and, 1shoed and claire said that the cyrodiil part comes soon

will be great to have that page up end of november for all of us

1

Bellatrix 23-Nov-17 02:23 AM

We’re in the process of setting up hearthfire assets so we can use them in Cyrodiil. Are all provinces planning on making LE a requirement?

It doesn’t really matter if not but if we ‘re all using all the DLC I may as well stick them in BSAssets so we can all use them. If not will just put them in Heartlands.

Larrian (Morrowind) 23-Nov-17 02:27 AM

LE should already be a requirement

We use DG and DB assets

Bellatrix 23-Nov-17 02:56 AM

Yeah. Most provinces use those two but not hearthfire. So technically it doesn’t have to be LE. Cyrodiil went with LE for Bruma and hearthfire does add a lot of nice clutter:)

Hannes821 23-Nov-17 07:39 AM

We have le requirement

Hannes821 23-Nov-17 05:10 PM

larry i wrote you a pm

Hannes821 24-Nov-17 03:39 PM

cool i got morrowind input

so now only very few left

1

Hannes821 24-Nov-17 05:59 PM

the MW team contribution is ready https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/235853395779518464/383747291091042304/unknown.png (edited)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/235853395779518464/383747349249261568/unknown.png

now i would love to hear from Cyrodiil and Blackmarsh; everything else as update is welcome too ofc

Bellatrix 24-Nov-17 07:32 PM

Sorry. We’re being really slow. We have a draft but nothing final:(

Hannes821 24-Nov-17 07:36 PM

tahts fine, end of novmeber could be last of november i guess

maybe people look forward other provinces as "the unknown" and you want to join next time in january / februrary?

as you wish

Robcbwilson 25-Nov-17 02:02 AM

Yeah, I always planned on publishing on the last day of the month in the evening to give people as much time as possible

1

Hannes821 25-Nov-17 05:32 AM

in theory, if we al agree that it is important to have all teams on board we could wait a bit...

Bellatrix 25-Nov-17 05:38 AM

I wouldn’t.

If we (Cyrodiil) don’t get organised we have no one to blame but ourselves and hanging around waiting for everyone is why BS often moves so slowly:) (edited)

Robcbwilson 25-Nov-17 05:49 AM

We will publish on the agreed day. It is going to be a regular feature so needs to have a consistent release day. As Claire said, we can’t wait around for everyone to be done

I imagine teams will occasionally miss an edition which is fine

Robcbwilson 25-Nov-17 06:31 AM

Of course, we very much value the contribution of each team and will help where needed

Hannes821 25-Nov-17 01:20 PM

@Team Leads s hey, currently, Samurai Healer is the second lead in elsweyr next to bard, and he told me he would like to talk with us. unfortunately i think i cannot tag people as team leads. can we do that and have him here, for sake of cooperation ?

building up teamplay again, i try ^^

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Nov-17 01:23 PM

I think only @Joseph Crowell would be able to do that

1

Hannes821 25-Nov-17 01:30 PM

another thing, i will setup git the next days but always feel too busy for that ;-) Can i send meshes to someone to upload them as common assets for you for now?

Bellatrix 25-Nov-17 03:49 PM

yeah - send them to me

do you have them set up in an ESP?

Hannes821 25-Nov-17 04:17 PM

I can, sure, give me naming conventions (or do you want to use the same conventions we use with satm in front? )

Bellatrix 25-Nov-17 06:11 PM

they should start with BSK but apart from that I guess they'd have similar names to the skyrim icebergs?

As far as I know apart from BSK the rest of the name is optional

Bellatrix 25-Nov-17 07:00 PM

Just pushing an update to BSAssets

I've merged the recent pushes and also added a selection of cyrodiil clutter (prefixed with CYR)

it was something we talked about ages ago with the idea being that if they want other provinces can use it to give a hint of home to any cyrodiil characters - maybe in trade ports as well - it would definitely fit in Cranshore on Roscrea as they do a lot of trade with Cyrodiil etc

Joseph Crowell 25-Nov-17 08:42 PM

@Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) is in here now

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 25-Nov-17 09:26 PM

Hello!

Joseph Crowell 25-Nov-17 09:29 PM

Larrian (Morrowind) 25-Nov-17 09:32 PM

Hey Samurai! Nice to see you here

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 25-Nov-17 11:14 PM

I keep finding new servers.

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Nov-17 11:15 PM

Welcome!

Hannes821 26-Nov-17 04:21 AM

heya!

Hannes821 26-Nov-17 11:27 AM

good evening

Robcbwilson 26-Nov-17 11:27 AM

Hi

Hannes821 26-Nov-17 11:43 AM

hi

congrats on being appointed elsweyr lead

joe told me

thursday, cool

oh wrong chat ^^ whatever doesnt matter haha

you have a lot of responsibility now, i hope you can find time for real life, my friend

i know how it is

but we need more people willing and eager to step up actually

if we want to achieve something

like, for my project, i wish i had more people who would like to become core members and get more involved ect

Bellatrix 26-Nov-17 11:46 AM

^ don't we all!

3

Hannes821 28-Nov-17 10:29 AM

are these smileys on our dark creations page new? do the likes still work the way the did before?

"reaction title 01"

Robcbwilson 28-Nov-17 10:52 AM

Seems it has been upgraded

Hannes821 28-Nov-17 03:25 PM

yeh no like counter anymore ^^ that was giving me a motivation to add my mustard as comment here and there

1

Hannes821 30-Nov-17 05:16 PM

PR release seemed successfull, need to optimise picture size and research the soundtrack autoplay next time

Joseph Crowell 30-Nov-17 05:19 PM

Robcbwilson 30-Nov-17 05:21 PM

Yes, thanks to everyone that helped make it a success

Hannes821 03-Dec-17 06:36 PM

11 directors in here

feels like a record

hellow deeza, i think you are the one i didnt see for longest time

good night

Hannes821 07-Dec-17 03:39 PM

hey, all 11 again. good evening, directors.

Robcbwilson 07-Dec-17 04:07 PM

Evening @Hannes821

Hannes821 07-Dec-17 04:07 PM

Hannes821 07-Dec-17 04:47 PM

didnt we say english is the language?

what in gods name is this?

i study, and like, chinese, but this looks odd to me

looks like a QQ commercial (its kind of chinese skype) copied over with the font and all <i> and so on

is he offering a degree from san diego university?

yep. offering a fake degree. lol.

@Joseph Crowell maybe we take that down? seems to be in elsweyr, maybe a bot that hacked a members account=

Joseph Crowell 09-Dec-17 11:17 PM

Xae or one of the Elsweyr leads would have to remove it

Hannes821 10-Dec-17 04:19 AM

I wish you all a pleasant second advend

Joseph Crowell 14-Dec-17 04:19 AM

I've been watching the site run with top running to watch ram use

and I think I'm going to have to upgrade

ram use is increasing to hte point where only 500mb are left quite regularly

each httpd item in this list is someone opening a web page

so we have easily 50 simultaneous users browsing at any one point in time

Bellatrix 14-Dec-17 09:33 AM

Oh that’s very cool. I assume the tragic increased after the newsletter?

Hannes821 14-Dec-17 09:51 AM

so, good traffic but also updates required. any way we can help?`

Robcbwilson 14-Dec-17 03:29 PM

We will work with an offline version of the newsletter this time to help a bit

Joseph Crowell 14-Dec-17 09:08 PM

Nah I want the traffic

I just need to upgrade the server to handle the load

2

Hannes821 17-Dec-17 10:26 AM

thanks

Hannes821 21-Dec-17 03:20 PM

Wow soon time to share Christmas congratulations and soon after that new year wishes. Anything you are looking for, for your team? I certainly hope My members can be more in ck and other tools and less in general discussions. It's my motivation to get Atmora on its way next year but it's unsure if we can get that all done until the end of the year

Bellatrix 22-Dec-17 05:01 AM

You probably do this already but I’ve found that showing the physical progress you’re making yourself really helps with motivation and progress of the team. So try and get all the department directors to publish screenshots of what they’re up to / ask everyone how it’s going once a week.

1

Robcbwilson 22-Dec-17 05:06 AM

We just did a "Year in Review" .pdf for Elsweyr

1

Excellent idea @Bellatrix

Hannes821 22-Dec-17 08:52 AM

thanks, appreciate it

Joseph Crowell 23-Dec-17 04:10 AM

I just had to hide some posts from RandomG (RandeadG) where he was going through our forums harassing recruits in their application threads

telling them they shouldn't apply with us etc

Robcbwilson 23-Dec-17 04:12 AM

Their lead should speak to them and get that nipped in the bud

Joseph Crowell 23-Dec-17 04:14 AM

reported it to Xae too

they were removed from IB/Beyond Skyrim months ago

Robcbwilson 23-Dec-17 04:20 AM

Nice one, thanks

Joseph Crowell 23-Dec-17 04:28 AM

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/13032-application-writing-narrative-design/

Application: Writing & Narrative Design

Hello! My name is Jonathan. I’m a long-time fan of the Elder Scrolls series, I thoroughly enjoyed the Beyond Skyrim Bruma mod, and I’d absolutely love to ...

Hannes821 24-Dec-17 03:26 AM

Merry Christmas, colleagues

Robcbwilson 24-Dec-17 03:39 AM

For those of us who live in the Southern Hemisphere, Merry Christmas

Larrian (Morrowind) 24-Dec-17 04:08 AM

Time zones don't work like that tbh

Joseph Crowell 24-Dec-17 04:42 AM

@Robcbwilson

if we had members in Japan it would be Christmas for them

if today was Christmas here and not Christmas Eve

on this side of the planet (the far East)

Hannes821 24-Dec-17 07:41 AM

well we celebrate 24th eve, not 25th morning

christkind comes in the living room via door, in the eve, in germany...or okay we adopted santa claus by now

wasnt it a marketing strategy of coca cola in the twenties anyways, changing the christkind to a redcloaked old fella?

but i will wish you merry christmas tomorrow again, my anglo-american and australian friends

by the way we also dont have socks hanging at the fireplace

just the tree

the english queen adopted the tree thing, when she married a german price around early 20th century, and then the tree became a thing in england and america and so on

its actually older than christianity, the tree thing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree

Christmas tree

A Christmas tree is a decorated tree, usually an evergreen conifer such as spruce, pine, or fir or an artificial tree of similar appearance, associated with the celebration of Christmas. The modern Christmas tree was developed in early modern Ger...

okay, they adopted it already in the 19th century across the channel, anyways

Robcbwilson 24-Dec-17 10:52 AM

Well, I learnt something today

Merry Christmas to everyone!

Hannes821 25-Dec-17 05:19 AM

Merry Christmas now for the 25th people

It's based on the turn of the sun, nights getting longer. Ancient prophets have been a symbol of life and sun. Already in babel, sumer, India, Egypt and other places that greatly influenced Jewish culture, which Christianity and later Islam emerged from. Burning a tree (or a general big fire to summon back the sun) was the usual pagan festivity in ancient Europe north of the alps

Christian missionaries had to replace the meaning but the tradition remains

Hannes821 25-Dec-17 05:35 AM

Like Easter eggs and bunny are remains of a fertility cult

Hannes821 26-Dec-17 03:16 PM

Joseph Crowell 27-Dec-17 09:47 PM

Someone is definitely ddosing us. I changed the site and hardened it but they just upped their game and hit us with a bigger botnet. At least now the server is using all CPU and RAM before crashing. (edited)

Bellatrix 28-Dec-17 03:09 AM

I don’t get why people do that. It’s weird.

Hannes821 28-Dec-17 03:53 AM

Attack Western Business pages, automated?

Maybe it's just a coincidence we are there because of our search engine keywords

Joseph Crowell 28-Dec-17 05:35 AM

They hit us twice today. The first time it didn't go down but the second time they got us.

Hayden 28-Dec-17 05:49 AM

Could we get something like Cloudflare or whatever it is to stop it?

Joseph Crowell 28-Dec-17 06:37 AM

no

Robcbwilson 28-Dec-17 06:38 AM

It is very expensive

Cloudflare is something that companies (like the one I work for) buy

Joseph Crowell 28-Dec-17 06:43 AM

Robcbwilson 28-Dec-17 06:45 AM

Ouch

Joseph Crowell 28-Dec-17 06:45 AM

they slammed our booty holes

Joseph Crowell 28-Dec-17 07:00 AM

I'm about to try this out: https://fastnetmon.com/ (edited)

Robcbwilson 28-Dec-17 07:08 AM

Nice!

Joseph Crowell 28-Dec-17 09:03 PM

I went with fail2ban instead which was already in place for ssh brute force detection (edited)

Bellatrix 29-Dec-17 04:37 AM

Does anyone remember how to edit the forum banner on DC? I'm trying to update Roscreas but can't work out how to do it.

Hannes821 29-Dec-17 06:29 AM

Maybe you need forum administrators to help you, Joe or xae

Joseph Crowell 29-Dec-17 06:31 AM

I am not a forum administrator

@Hannes821

Hannes821 29-Dec-17 06:31 AM

Oh

Didn't know

Deeza was

Right?

Joseph Crowell 29-Dec-17 06:34 AM

used to be

not sure about now

Bellatrix 31-Dec-17 10:19 AM

love the atmora trailer

Rubaedo 31-Dec-17 01:57 PM

It was nothing if not dramatic and gorgeous.

1

Hannes821 31-Dec-17 04:21 PM

thank you very much

crafti and yaranik did a great job, we have a nice team

nice core team

now lets hope for the best for the new year with our projects and the BS community

happy new year, everyone

Robcbwilson 31-Dec-17 04:43 PM

Thanks Hannes, you too

Deleted User 07-Jan-18 01:30 PM

@Cyrodiil I was contacted by someone called Batmanna a while ago, they are interested in doing 3d stuff for Atmora. Just to be sure, is it true that they were removed for inactivity, and now that they are back, don't you plan to get them back in?

Bellatrix 07-Jan-18 01:52 PM

I don't know - I'll ask

Bellatrix 07-Jan-18 02:30 PM

yeah apparently they have worked for us. We haven't kicked them for inactivity though - we don't generally do that cos people come and go more or less active. I did tidy up our forums a month or so ago and pruned anyone who hadn't logged on to cyrodiil for over a year so possibly it was that?

Deleted User 07-Jan-18 04:17 PM

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/13334-recruitment-batmanna/ now they've made a thread specifying Atmora. I mean, it's cool for us that they are interested, but it's also a bit of an awkward situation.

I assume they don't know that they haven't actually been removed from the team, otherwise I can't really explain their behavior? (edited)

Recruitment - Batmanna

Hi all, I'm Batmanna, I already worked on 3d asstes with team Cyrodill and generally always loved to mess around with 3dsMax. I managed to get back t...

Bellatrix 07-Jan-18 04:24 PM

I’m really confused. As far as I know they haven’t been removed. You’re the first I’ve heard of it.

And yes if batmana is around and wanted to work for cyrodiil we’d love that.

Rubaedo 07-Jan-18 04:31 PM

Batmanna is currently in MW as well, only recently joining and taking an architecture claim.

Deleted User 07-Jan-18 06:49 PM

well, to us it's a red flag already that they have jumped from one team to the other like that, we will see. I guess Atmora could give them a chance, a very small claim to accommodate the fact they're already working with you

Joseph Crowell 07-Jan-18 10:18 PM

almost all of my core team of modelers are involved in helping other projects

they do the bulk of their work for IB but they're members just about everywhere

Deleted User 07-Jan-18 10:57 PM

well, they're awesome. Not everyone is awesome like that.

Joseph Crowell 07-Jan-18 11:48 PM

Rubaedo 08-Jan-18 04:52 AM

Yeah, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt for now. If we have any more trouble we'll discuss it.

Hannes821 15-Jan-18 06:45 PM

meep. all good?

Hannes821 22-Jan-18 07:47 AM

Bard behaves hostile in our personal conversation and i simply dont follow why. i dont feel like investing any time anymore in including khajit elements to promote that project. that being said, i am too busy for that and dont want to care about it anymore.

Larrian (Morrowind) 22-Jan-18 07:57 AM

Honestly Bard's general hostility is an issue that needs to be addressed

Hannes821 22-Jan-18 03:39 PM

he just takes every little thing personal and tries to revenge himself. was on holiday in the ice, and litteraly posted this: This is what you're missing out on, I have gigs of high res reference photography. (and a foto) i removed everyone who was inactive or not working with us from the atmora server, and he took that personal. After comming back now after ages, the first thing is kicking me there (edit: on elswery server for revenge). I was there for the coordination thing. whatever. i dont care. (edited)

PS: he didnt even talk with the others about it. but i really should not care, i have no interest in wasting time or thoughts anywhere

Rubaedo 22-Jan-18 11:37 PM

Bard has been extremely hostile with essentially every project outside of his own, and incredibly resistent to doing much of any collaboration. There's a reason he isn't on this server, in fact he tried to have an inquery started when it was made. He's absolutely notoriously umwilling to actually work with most any other project, which becomes more than a little problematic when provinces like Morrowind or Black Marsh need to address significant issues about collaborating and aligning our lore. I don't know enough about how he personally runs Elsweyr to make any statements regarding that, but I do feel as though we should at the very least be taking a long, hard look at how deeply inappropriate his behavior has been for a such a necessarily collaborative project.

Joseph Crowell 23-Jan-18 02:01 AM

he's been hostile with every project including his own

remember why Morcroft left

Rubaedo 23-Jan-18 02:08 AM

I know that a couple people here are currently in a stressful situation, but I feel like it might be worth taking a long, serious, genuine look at the state of Elsweyr at some point in the near future.

Larrian (Morrowind) 23-Jan-18 02:29 AM

Most certainly

It's a real area of concern imo

I have genuine worries about their level of standard, as well

Rubaedo 23-Jan-18 02:34 AM

I confess, I can't say that I haven't heard rumors to that effect.

Bellatrix 23-Jan-18 06:30 AM

I must admit that after being on the receiving end of a couple of really nasty exchanges - including 1:1 PMing even after I’d asked him to stop (screenshotted for posterity) I’m really relieved he’s not on here. However, I have heard good things about how he runs Elswhyr / treats members of the team, so not sure what I think other that I personally want to avoid all contact with him.

Joseph Crowell 23-Jan-18 06:31 AM

seems kind of like a transbot type situation

Rubaedo 23-Jan-18 01:27 PM

At the very least, it makes it extremely difficult for us to collaborate with Elsweyr, something which is particularly necessary given the khajiit population in Morrowind, and the proximity of the province with Black Marsh. Even if he's making a flawless masterpiece, I'd rather avoid having it be a flawless masterpiece that constantly contradicts and grinds against the work that other provinces have done.

Rubaedo 23-Jan-18 04:08 PM

In other news, would someone be able to switch around ZeeZee and Saturnus's roles, now that that announcement has been made?

Meglos (Morrowind) 23-Jan-18 04:11 PM

@Joseph Crowell

Sage of Ice 23-Jan-18 06:12 PM

I can confirm that whatever anyone has heard about Elsweyr's apparently low levels of standard, that's incorrect

I won't say anything else on the matter

Hannes821 24-Jan-18 09:01 AM

I can say nothing about the quality of work, for me its just that he bases his judgements on spontaneus emotional impressions rather than the needs of his and other teams. But that aside, we need Elsweyr to flourish and we also need to exchange with them. SamuraiHealer and our Rob are super nice people, i trust them. Its just a pity that he treats them as "Co-directors". Even if he runs the province himself to 80% (there had been times where i did similar in atmora, and i heard that claire is doing a fair amount of work for Ros, too, so i personally can understand if he claims to be the number one of the team somewhat) i still think its necessary for the team´s sake That we have partners to talk to - and that we can trust in them being able to settle things for the greater good with him. Ofc i discuss with anathem or tascani sometimes as well, but always in a cooperative and constructive manner. Now, i know nothing about how it works in elsweyr, but it would be good to hear that at least formally, he equally respects rob and Samurai (or his department leads) opinion so we have a fundament to work with elsweyr, but after i applied and asked everyone except Bard if its okay i join again for the sake of cooperation; and literally everyone was happy about it except him (he wasnt there); i was sure to be welcomed, and now he has the power to just kick me when he feels like; 'its not so much about me being kicked but about the general policy and constitution how elsweyr is running. I mean, if we have a project with elsweyr, how can we trust it will move along and we can work with them, exchange ressources, trust each other, if he can onehandedly spontaneously recall every decision (and being absent most of the time)? ("this is what you dont get now") (edited)

3 points are important for me here: 1) its not my problem, and i am in the team that has the lessest worries about cooperating with the far sands of elsweyr 2) i think he needs to be careful not to abuse his authority. I cannot judge his work and his qualifications. 3) if we always get in trouble with him, its important we can talk with Rob and Samurai, and that Bard is talking with them on a cooperative basis; So the matters of BS have a channel to find their way in and out of team elsweyr for cooperation. (edited)

Joseph Crowell 24-Jan-18 09:44 AM

if we do take action about this we do have the problem that he owns the community Discord. he likely won't give it over and we may have to make a new one

Rob or Katy should be the owner but it would be nice if the entire council were admin like they are here (edited)

Hannes821 24-Jan-18 07:15 PM

well i dont really mean to do anything against him, from my point of view it would be enough to get an ensurance that there is some democratic cooperation in the top level of Elsweyr, so he wouldnt break anything. But i feel like directly taking action against him in any way might be too much; afterall this would be mostly an Elsweyr-Elsweyr matter, the only BS issue is if BS stuff like cooperation is not handled and treated carefully; must other things are entirely an elsweyrian topic. And besides, i dont feel like i can judge his province work; only Rob & Samurai (or is that Katy?) could.

Joseph Crowell 25-Jan-18 12:00 AM

rob and samurai

rob and katy run the marketing teams and as a result one of them should own the community discord - that discord falls under marketing/publicity control per our agreements when it started

1

Hannes821 25-Jan-18 06:08 AM

true, thanks for clarifying

Hannes821 28-Jan-18 05:28 AM

DeviantKaled updated his ship textures, which would be important to get updated in BSassets for several provinces (we just realised that when he handed in a shipwreck and saw his old textures on my screenshot; so i replaced them in our build)

Hannes821 28-Jan-18 07:12 AM

another optimisation question, a 1k dtx5 compressed normal map has 1.33mb size; with the PS Nvidia exporter it can be "cleaned" and will be reduced to 687kb. But there will be some fractures in the picture. Would you favour file size or quality, if it might change the size of your build by +- 500 megabyte ? example: original

cleaned

and by the way, why do some more advanced skilled texturers hand in normal maps that are completely white, not pink, just out of curiosity

(i forgot the explanation of katurix and lucidstorm1 already and they arent around)

i think they deleted some unnecessary information

Joseph Crowell 28-Jan-18 11:04 AM

remember the alpha channel of the normal map is used to store a specular map for Skyrim

Photoshop and the Gimp don't know this and use it for transparency per normal

otherwise, the actual color of the normal map should always be purple

more than likely what is happening is that they are handing in texture with a dark specular in the alpha channel which makes them transparent

1

Joseph Crowell 29-Jan-18 08:53 PM

@here I almost have a recruitment form finished on the website

which will put an end to this seagull recruitment issue hopefully

Rubaedo 29-Jan-18 08:54 PM

Thank god

Joseph Crowell 29-Jan-18 08:55 PM

https://beyondskyrim.org/join-beyond-skyrim/

Joseph Crowell

Join Beyond Skyrim - Beyond Skyrim

Do you want to join Beyond Skyrim? If so, you've come to the right place. We're always looking for dedicated members to help bring the world of Nirn to life. Please post examples of your work in order to be considered. You can do this by: Uploading work examples to cloud storage and posting

Bellatrix 30-Jan-18 04:02 AM

Cyrodiil PR update is almost ready (we’re already last

) just waiting on a few more screenies and I (or someone) will send it over tonight

Joseph Crowell 30-Jan-18 06:54 AM

so guys

Larrian (Morrowind) 30-Jan-18 06:55 AM

so Joe

1

Joseph Crowell 30-Jan-18 06:55 AM

I need to set up a bank account as a not for profit to be able to accept donations for site hosting and paying for more Google Drive space etc

https://www.commbank.com.au/business/business-accounts/society-cheque-account.html

https://www.commbank.com.au/business/business-accounts/society-cheque-account/business-verification-in-branch.html

It's costing me this much each year to keep everything going minus the drive space I haven't payed for yet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VielDnNIHpkpwrLhyTgCUQ64use5VHfjlfyy5A5jyLc/edit?usp=sharing (edited)

if it drew in more than this amount we could look at activating other services of course such as Trello

and periodic statements could be sent to the council@beyondskyrim.org email address so everyone would know where money was going

but it would literally be used to keep these services going when I say... lose my job for instance like I have right now

Joseph Crowell 30-Jan-18 07:17 AM

what I mean by donations

Bellatrix 30-Jan-18 07:17 AM

If this is just an internal way of splitting the costs, I’m fine with it.

Joseph Crowell 30-Jan-18 07:17 AM

is people within the team putting money in to the account to help me pay for stuff

I can't use my personal account because it'll probably be overdrawn soon

Bellatrix 30-Jan-18 07:18 AM

As in, I’m happy to start paying for a bit anyway and that would seem the easiest way to do it.

Joseph Crowell 30-Jan-18 07:49 AM

thanks Claire

I need the council so chime in and say their piece

so I can use it as a meeting saying everyone is in agreement (edited)

it would also help if I could name Larrian a second office bearer and he could go with me to the bank

because they want 2 officials

Joseph Crowell 30-Jan-18 08:03 AM

or Hayden but I think he's kinda on a holiday from BS right now

Hayden 30-Jan-18 08:17 AM

If you can send me all the documentation relating to the issue I'll have a read over it. Bank account related stuff I can help with if it's AUS based, although I'm also interested in hearing some BS-wide input on the matter as well (be it legal or otherwise, just PM us/me)

I'll drop $20 a month if it's to cover the costs for all our websites/emails etc. Just read the last couple messages and I'm more than happy to cover a few costs, this project has definitely provided a lot more enjoyment/entertainment than, say, Netflix has in the past month or so. More than happy to front some costs if it means keeping all our services going.

Bellatrix 30-Jan-18 08:22 AM

We probably need to make this into a formal post at some point.

Hayden 30-Jan-18 08:27 AM

Agreed. Although regardless of Project Lead input/donations, I think we do need to work out these expenditures internally. I don't think anyone expects it to be fair, but we do need some kind of legal related stuff to make sure we all know what we are signing up for. Not everyone can donate the exact same time and/or money. Is this the kind of thing we need a full, unanimous council vote for?

Joseph Crowell 30-Jan-18 08:31 AM

yeah it needs to e formal for me to use it at Commonwealth

probably a strong majority vote

like at least 80%

@Hayden just have a read over the stufff here: https://www.commbank.com.au/business/business-accounts/society-cheque-account.html

I'd need to add you as an office bearer like I was going to before

Hannes821 30-Jan-18 12:22 PM

liable will be our organisation as a jurisdictional person, only represented by us, not us as natural persons (?) Sorry if it sounds strange, kind of tried to translate the terms from german law 1:1 to english; my point is if we say "lets go for it" only the account you created is there to pay the expenses, not us, right? also, maybe its good if Kelretu is in here, he studied law like me lol

we could also consider how we register bs members or donators, and give them a bonus system

like some patreon based people

(10 € per month, once in a year you get a T-shirt, to get the idea)

it would also be an opportunity to announce this in the next newsletter....

people keep commenting "i would pay for this"... but ofc, some people may start raise their expectations, and we need to fullfill these as well

Joseph Crowell 30-Jan-18 12:27 PM

yes only the account is there to pay expenses

we aren't tralking about outside donators

this is just an account seperate to mine

owned by the organization that money can be put in to for the purposes of paying for our site and services

I'm still not sure that'll translate in a way you can understand but maybe Kelretu can

@Hannes821

important: this is a system for members of Beyond Skyrim to help pay for our services that I currently pay for alone

and I lost my job

so if you guys don't help and I don't find a job soon, they won't be getting payed for

Hannes821 30-Jan-18 12:34 PM

i get it okay

well, we should have an amount that needs to be covered, and then split it

i think there wont be a better idea

Joseph Crowell 30-Jan-18 12:37 PM

it's not that much really (edited)

and I provided an itemized list earlier

man I hate repeating myself

but here are the current expenses plus a year google drive subscription to give us all 1TB of google drive space: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VielDnNIHpkpwrLhyTgCUQ64use5VHfjlfyy5A5jyLc/edit?usp=sharing

shared to the organization

and yeah trello is a $9.99 per user per month charge... that's too much (edited)

Bellatrix 30-Jan-18 12:44 PM

@Hannes821 I’m not sure splitting it is fair. I mean Joe paying for everything isn’t fair either but now you’re putting a financial obligation onto people who may not be able to afford it.

I’m happy to pay and even cover all the costs for this year (but that’s because I get paid too much and have no expensive hobbies like children

) but it shouldn’t be mandatory.

Joseph Crowell 30-Jan-18 12:48 PM

yeah it wasn't an obligatory thing

just kind of like a church offering

if you can help, please do but otherwise ❤u any way (edited)

Bellatrix 30-Jan-18 12:52 PM

If it’s like a church offering does that mean there’s wine..?

Cos if so I’m sold

Joseph Crowell 30-Jan-18 12:52 PM

well I do have a bottle of cherrie (edited)

Hannes821 30-Jan-18 03:48 PM

having a child and still being a student myself... i would see what i could do

Hannes821 30-Jan-18 05:28 PM

gnight, see you

Meglos (Morrowind) 31-Jan-18 02:45 PM

@Joseph Crowell On the recruitment form you posted, maybe make it clear that we're not a paid enterprise. I've had a couple people so far contact me asking about paid work :P

Joseph Crowell 31-Jan-18 05:04 PM

They were responses to a job I posted on a free/volunteer work board for Iliac Bay. They were ridiculously bad at following instructions lol

Meglos (Morrowind) 31-Jan-18 05:10 PM

Ah, of course :P

Joseph Crowell 31-Jan-18 05:36 PM

but at least we know the new recruitment form on the website works well

Hannes821 31-Jan-18 06:28 PM

topic to vote: change newsletter schedule from 2 months to 3 months. i am for the idea + and, joe also said so; who else is againts it, who is for it?

(i think we should quickly talk about it, as it is connected to all of us)

Joseph Crowell 31-Jan-18 06:29 PM

imo at 2 months it becomes too much of a time sink

Hannes821 31-Jan-18 06:29 PM

it seems doable, but a bit stressful, and we better focus.

Meglos (Morrowind) 31-Jan-18 06:47 PM

3 months sounds good to me

Hannes821 31-Jan-18 06:56 PM

tascani said: 3 month better than 2 months more news, more substantial news, less work ana would like much PR but still would prefer to focus on File work if he has to choose where to put attention. (so its more close to 3 months)

Bellatrix 31-Jan-18 06:56 PM

I don’t have a view either way.

I am intrigued about the top much work - is this in terms of organising and uploading the content or how much time it’s costing individual provinces? For Cyrodiil and Roscrea I think it’s taken us 1-2h in total for beach contribution (hence I don’t have an opinion either way as it hasn’t been a lot of work for us).

Hannes821 31-Jan-18 07:00 PM

hmm both, but i think the big issue is on the teams side. because they need to show new places and tell a new story, maybe include a new track; then you also dont want to spoil every place and still tell new things / show new things each time.

compared to that, if i invest 3 days in organising this, its not that much work.

i mean, we would likely run at least another 12 months for atmora and 24 months for roscrea, if i understand your estimate plans right?

maybe 10 months or 20 months

but the point is, thats a lot of pictures to show and soundtracks to compose

if you want 2 months, (most of you) then i have no problem continuuing, i was just following the idea of joe because as atmora director i find it good to have more time to show new stuff from our project, choose carefully. But i also like to do that newsletter since we had the idea, so i would still do that if you like it more often.

Kelretu 31-Jan-18 07:26 PM

I think it should be subject to the PR department.

There'll always be provinces that have less to show simply due to members being on vacation or similar.

It's a good chance for other provinces to shine.

And I think it's a bit of an incentive for the provinces to make progress, which isn't a bad thing.

Robcbwilson 01-Feb-18 01:59 AM

I agree totally with @Kelretu the Newsletter is and always will be voluntary in terms of contributions. If provinces want to skip an edition, or contribute less that is up to them. Speaking as one of the “smaller” provinces it has been a massive boon to the team. Plus, it takes me only about an hour or so to create our content. I vote for every two months

Hannes821 01-Feb-18 03:46 AM

ok

Joseph Crowell 01-Feb-18 09:41 PM

on the website I put in a goal yesterday counting people actually putting in applications and it's working

oh, also, we're at a daily high for site hits that I've never seen before: 2185 yesterday (edited)

we got a visit from every country that is blue on this map (edited)

I think I count 26 countries in the world that didn't visit us yesterday

Rubaedo 02-Feb-18 01:47 AM

Would someone mind update ZeeZee's roles for me?

Joseph Crowell 02-Feb-18 01:49 AM

what do they need?

Rubaedo 02-Feb-18 01:50 AM

They've replaced Saturnus's role as BM lead.

Joseph Crowell 02-Feb-18 01:51 AM

that wouldn't have anything to do with this would it?

Rubaedo 02-Feb-18 01:54 AM

Saturnus just didn't feel able to commit the time necessary to maintain his position. And no, I don't know what that's about. You'd have to ask her.

Hannes821 02-Feb-18 04:42 AM

lol

so it looks like we did a good job, team

Bellatrix 02-Feb-18 09:56 AM

Where do the applications end up?

Are they going to the dc forum still? (Sorry not as on top of this as I should be).

Rubaedo 02-Feb-18 10:37 AM

They get forwarded to your BS email account. It's a little messy still as there are still a lot of apps that amount to "I just want to do whatever helps, I'm interested in any province! :)" So we will need to actively try and keep ourselves from seagulling.

If I may make a suggestion, for apps like that it might be worth discussing who needs what kind of volunteers where amongst ourselves. It might be tedious but it would certainly help alleviate the feeling that certain provinces "steal" members from where they're needed.

Hannes821 02-Feb-18 07:01 PM

okay so if we formalize this; Atmora: we could use Concept Artists (1 or 2); Implementer (1 or 2) and 3d people (same). we dont need so much voice actors and writers atm, or composers or level designers. So we make an excel sheet, and then have a rotation on applicants who state "i dont care where i go" "okay you got selected for there and there". thats the only way i could think of, we organize our needs together as community (?)

by the way, just for the fun, i made a test application but joe didnt anser me yet, lol

Hello, @Zeezee , nice to meet you! congratulations on your promotion i guess? if i can help you guys anyhow, let me know, i love the BM pictures i have in my mind....

Zeezee 02-Feb-18 07:06 PM

Thanks for the warm welcome Hannes. We've met before, I used to go by BaronZ.

Hannes821 02-Feb-18 07:14 PM

ah okay. maybe because its late, but i still dont remember much of our conversations ^^ sorry

i should sleep more

yes, i know that name somehow

ah... talking of which... i gota go sleep, see ya all

Meglos (Morrowind) 02-Feb-18 07:41 PM

Morrowind is still very much in need of 3D artists. "But everyone needs 3D artists!" you'll say. I respect that, but Morrowind is still lacking in any interior tilesets whatsoever and doesn't have anyone on the team currently who is capable of making them. Right now, this lack of tileset creators is our biggest obstacle in development. If we get any applicants who specialize in tilesets and who aren't picky about what province they join, we would greatly appreciate if they could be sent our way.

Joseph Crowell 02-Feb-18 08:24 PM

@Hannes821 I've gotten around 15 applications in iliac bay so far

not a single one of them is from you though

you'll need to check your own email for Atmora applications

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 03:39 AM

i didnt even know ^^

okay then i guess login in my new gmail.

for that specialists call, i had exactly that idea, @Meglos (Morrowind) , and asked people in Atronach forge last night if they would consider specialising like deviantKaled

(thatshipguy)

looking at peoples limited free time and our high standards, its the only way to get things done for individual new artists i believe

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 03:43 AM

@Meglos (Morrowind) IB doesn't have a completed interior tileset either other than the sandstone cave set

we've been trying to get interiors done for several years on city tilesets

and still have 0

I also payed $150 dollars to post up a job ad on LinkedIn for 3d modelers a couple days back

they started responding shortly before the newsletter was posted

so no the massive amount of 3d applications weren't because of the newsletter and they should have followed my instuctions and just applied for IB

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 03:48 AM

IB is the last province that needs 3D artists

You have Kelretu, Escha and Hayden working for you constantly

Morrowind has no interior artists whatsoever

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 03:49 AM

that says nothing about finished work.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 03:49 AM

Escha is gone

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 03:49 AM

i think its hard to compare our provinces, at all

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 03:49 AM

Wait what

I saw him in IB today

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 03:49 AM

and Hayden has been on semi-hiatus from modeling for a month

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 03:49 AM

What happened to Escha?

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 03:50 AM

kelretu and hayden had been technically around in Atmora as well; but well, never did any 3d, kel made some nice concept art, 2 drawings, thats all o believe....

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 03:50 AM

so we have one active modeler

and Morrowind didn't pay for my applicants did they?

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 03:50 AM

Okay good point

But still

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 03:51 AM

by the way, we dont have tilesets either. i wonder if anyone except cyrodiil has

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 03:51 AM

We're in a situation now where people are paying for recruitment for their own province

Which I strongly disagree with tbh

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 03:51 AM

its either investment or dying to be frank

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 03:52 AM

I'm not paying people to make models

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 03:52 AM

I kno

*know

But you're paying for recruitment

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 03:52 AM

and I couldn't care whether you agree with it or not

if I don't do something my province will die

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 03:52 AM

I'm not criticising you specifically

Nvm

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 03:53 AM

Recruiting modellers is hard

I personally thing paying is crazy but I guess it's fast

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 03:54 AM

I just don't think it's fair, none of the Morrowind leads are in a financial position to do that

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 03:54 AM

Roscrea has gone from no modellers to about 4 that I think we can call oru own. It's taken an insane amount of work, working networks, youtube videos, targeted recruitment in reddit etc

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 03:54 AM

That's true

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 03:54 AM

I just lost my job 2 weeks ago

I'm absolutely not in a financial position to do it

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 03:55 AM

so basically unless you're constantly trying to find an new network of people this will happen

cyrodiil is the same. We've done targeted pleas for help for our leyawiin tileset

Artstation and squarespace might be good resources to directly mailshot people (edited)

1

wold take a bit of chutzpah though

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 03:56 AM

i am not saying that paying is the only way, or even a consistent way to get members. And i dont think any of us is rich either, but if we can do it then there is no reason against i believe.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 03:56 AM

I also posted an ad for IB on Artstation and Moddb (edited)

1

and Polycount

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 03:57 AM

...i guess i should write down a list...

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 03:57 AM

I tride polycount and it was an epic fail

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 03:58 AM

I actually got one guy through there this morning

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 03:58 AM

I guess we have no BS presence on it though so that probably didn't help as I was just some random asking for people to help us for free

but yeah, modellers don't just happen by magic

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 03:58 AM

right

we've never been able to just sit back and wait for them

one thing that usually draws them in is when we do videos

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 03:59 AM

That's very true

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 03:59 AM

maybe we should think about making a BSpolycount account and posting stuff 3d work on there?

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 03:59 AM

I was thinking about... what if we did a targetted recruitment video Skywind style for modelers?

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 04:00 AM

Anything really

The Roscrea video helped

the problem is getting out of the fan views space and getting it to people who actually have the skills to help us

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 04:01 AM

Definitely

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 04:49 AM

If I may make a suggestion, how about we put together a document stating which provinces need what kinds of members, and we'll discuss who should go where on a case-by-case basis. Seeing how long IB has been waiting on interior modelers I wouldn't be opposed to setting them as a higher priority, and seeing as Roscrea has rather been something of the woobie of this project for a while ya'll certainly deserve a break. At the same time, it would be nice to get more, say, writers and concept artists for BM, more implementation specialists for MW, etc etc. If we put together a proper document it might be more straightforward to deal with these contentions.

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:00 AM

@Rubaedo exactly. as we opened the topic, an excel sheet with planned positions, then we all make a rotation that fits all our priorities. then we go over and have (if possible) a small recruitment team, 1 guy per province? if thats not possible, at least a BS account on these places where you meet artists? if a province does its own PR there, they should be able to get their own replies ofc; but maybe its good we have a general presence everywhere where it makes sense we could have a section of the PR people or leave it as an informal recruiting team of project leads (us)

oh and sorry for the short offtopic, joe -> publicity channel. do you think you could look in that newsletter abo for fans? or is it simply nothing the development side would profit from or does it produce costs to set up?

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:02 AM

should we start a drive just for the council?

some of these documents would be kind of sensitive for average members to see

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:03 AM

drive? excuse me? i was thinking of a excel sheet of that google docs and link here, give everyone here edit right

i mean i dont know what you mean with drive

a gdrive folder?

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 05:05 AM

I was actually planning on asking about setting up an excel sheet, just that. And I do think that having someone for each team who's dedicated to understanding the recruitment needs of their province shouldn't be out of the question. A council drive might actually be a very good idea. (And yes Hannes, Joe is talking about setting up a gdrive folder for council documents specifically.) And I think the biggest takeaway we need from this is we really, really, really need to stop thinking of ourselves as our own teams first and BS second. We need to be pulling for each other, even for teams we may not be on ourselves. BS has such a problem with factionalism. We need to break down those walls.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:06 AM

https://drive.google.com/drive/u/1/folders/0AOEWtccr5ahtUk9PVA

hugs @Rubaedo

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 05:07 AM

❤

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:09 AM

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WgeZzgh1UPLBpGMTd7jNJ8nIAVAfmRzWilwVIksqWwQ/edit?usp=sharing

Provinces Recruitment Requests

Tabellenblatt1 Team Name, Role, Writer, Level Designer, General Implementer CK, Scripter Papyrus, Composer, Sound Engineer, Texturer, Modeller, Rigger/ Animater, Concept Artist Cyrodiil Iliac Bay Morrowind Atmora, 0, 0, 2, 1, 0, 0, 1, 2, 2, 1 Elsweyr Roscrea Black Marsh Public Relation...

just a sketch

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 05:09 AM

Aaaaand you beat me too the punch

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:10 AM

i guess you can copy paste some things, eventhough i didnt carefully use the descriptions you used for the cool application website

i copied it over

so you can use it if its useful

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 05:12 AM

Are the numbers 0 - 2 priority, or 0 - 2 on number needed?

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:12 AM

no, i just put in how many people in numbers i would like to have

i think i would add priorities after that

in a second step

checking my new mail, indeed i got a few, cool

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 05:15 AM

Really glad to see this happening, btw. This is such a relief after the years of competing for members. Actually working together is so much better.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:16 AM

so we put the numbers that we need in here? (edited)

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 05:17 AM

Seems like

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:17 AM

urrggg I need like 7-10 tilesets built

plus all the clutter and weapons and armor

and clothing

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 05:18 AM

I think it might be better to list priorities rather than numbers needed, yeah.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:19 AM

we have 4 tilesets that need to be done with one modeler on a tileset for the prerelease

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 05:20 AM

We also need several tilesets, interior and exterior, before we can make significant progress on our prerelease, but ya'll have certainly been waiting longer.

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 05:20 AM

All Roscrea desperately needs is an implementer or two to call our own and ideally one more dungeon designer.

Anything else would be a bonus.

Cyrodiil needs interior level designers, dungeon designers and the ever present moar writers / 3d artists particularly for clothing and tile sets.

Actually writers is another thing. We’ve mulled this over in Cyrodiil lead chat a few times - how do we get more writers we actually need (I.e. people who can write dialogue / can write for games rather than essays). Is there an equivalent of artststion for writers? (edited)

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:23 AM

^

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:23 AM

5 is a high number. maybe we assume first that new people really work, and after we distributed them, we claim new requirements if people fail their schedules?

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:24 AM

I'd say other than Deeza and Sage and Dobyk and Mwatuangi and one of our new recruits, I haven't seen anyone successfully write quest dialogue for us

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:24 AM

the problem is you need to get the writers at the level of game mechanics understanding like an general implementer.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:25 AM

man do we have a lot of unapproved books though (edited)

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:25 AM

and additionally your provinces restrictions...

let me show you an implementation excel sheet

of a chapter

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:26 AM

problem is we need brand new tilesets

some provinces don't have usable exisitng assets to copy from

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:26 AM

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/175hpOVDDaVbjNgNtGxsz_TzxkL96ZbM2Eqtg_wg2MkU/edit?usp=sharing

MQ02 Dialogue Sheets - Chapter 02 - 1/02/2018

Chapter 01 Topics, Topic Text, NPC lines Topic info, GoTo, Flags, Comments, Script notes, Prompt#, Response# If PC is Archmage:, Greetings, Archmage. What can I do for you?, 1, 4, 18, 43 ST, 1, I had a strange dream about old ruins recently, and I' m looking for answers., I don' t specialise...

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:27 AM

so I would actually think... Morrowind is underestimating the amount of people they need for tilesets

it's a 1-2 year job for a single modeler

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:27 AM

maybe you could teach a bit about tilesets in a new channel of atronach forge?

we should consider exchanging our skills and aquired knowledge between teams more frequently as well

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 05:28 AM

I think Cyrodiil has 6 people working on tilesets all at different speeds.

And it’s literally all they do (well not quite but apart from the odd break to prevent burnout it’s the majority of their time). (edited)

It’s a huge job.

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:29 AM

personal factors have a big impact, thats why i was a bit sceptical about the number of 5 for a first wave of distributing recruits.

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 05:29 AM

Well you aren’t going to get 5

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:29 AM

we're down to one modeler though

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:29 AM

i should learn that, sounds challenging ;-)

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 05:29 AM

This is more an estimate of what each province needs.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:29 AM

yeah this is what we need

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 05:30 AM

I think we’ll be lucky to get 5 in total across the whole project in one go.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:30 AM

I know we probably won't get it

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 05:30 AM

That doesn’t mean that’s not what IB needs though. Same for other provinces. The issue is demand is far greater than supply.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:30 AM

that's why I'm so desperate

tileset people drop like flies

and if you don't have a constant stream of people coming in to replace them, you end up in the position IB is in right now

the marketing team needs a modeler? (edited)

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:35 AM

lol i didnt write that, but they actually need pr people, media people

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:36 AM

yeah

actually people apply to do that all the time

we just haven't accomodated for it in our recruitment until now

2 or 3 voice actors for PR would also be good yeah

but you can probably use some of the standbys (edited)

river and trendane are awesome

1

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:38 AM

i just kept kicking out VA applications because i wanted to cast them all at once to get a common quality level....

then next step would be an objective comparison of the need, and setting up the rotation.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:42 AM

Trendane has been doing a lot of it though.. he was suggesting we pick a woman for our next trailer

which makes sense our female VAs haven't gotten much representation in our trailers

Lasur has a list of all our VAs

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 05:43 AM

I think trendane gets a lot of work cos he’s awesome and reliable and also part of the project.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:44 AM

Tren is still doing the upcoming IB trailer though

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 05:44 AM

Most of the Bruma VAs just delivered the lines - which is great, but they aren’t on discord or particularly interested in the elder scrolls it’s just another job to them.

But Roscreas trailer has a female VA so I guess we will be breaking the mound:) (edited)

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:45 AM

now I'm getting reminded of our recent 3d modeler recruitment drive

I pulled in some people yeah but they weren't particularly interested in Skyrim

not like us

becasue I didn't pull from the modding scene pool

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 05:46 AM

about that cycling. we could also put all 3d people in the AF and then ask them to specialise, for example armor, creatures, tilesets: and then they have job enrichment, it could work as motivational boost for them; and they could end up working as efficient as DeviantKaled, being able to contribute in several provinces (because the differences are not as big) (edited)

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:47 AM

not sure you understand

once you put someone on a tileset it's a 1-2 year job

and there isn't time to do much else

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 05:47 AM

^

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:48 AM

the clutter and weapons and armor etc

those can be chunked out pretty quick

and it's not too hard to put people on those jobs

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 05:49 AM

Although you can break city sets into smaller claims (interior, exterior and lower, middle, upper of each) that might help with the drop out rate as 3-4 interiors seems a lot more achievable than a complete 30 piece kit. (edited)

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:50 AM

true

I'm looking at that with the Jehanna set right now

if we had put kel just on the buildings and had someone else do the walls

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 05:50 AM

We’ve done that a bit with Cyrodiil. Not on purpose at first - often we’d get parts of a kit then the modeller vanished.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:50 AM

and someone esle on the interiors

it would have been difficult to match up styles for ... the wood for isntance

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 05:51 AM

Not if they work as a team.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:51 AM

but it would have been a much easier to swallow job (edited)

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 05:52 AM

Plus we also often end up with (good) models that need retextures so in practise that might not be so much of an issue

(edited)

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 05:54 AM

we would also need to curb tht culture where people consider the whole tileset their property

and get them working as teams yeah

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 05:56 AM

In MW our policy is to always try and seperate claims like that, as well as to try and engage with folks as this is a hobby, not a job. Make them feel like this is something they want to do. The people who stick around are almost universally the people who feel engaged, like they're valued, and like they're a part of a community. Beyond that, I think it's worthy of note that this document will be subject to major major change. For example, BM needs far more assets than, say, MW ever would, owing to the lack of overlap with TES5, but we're not picking up many modelers until we're more satisfied with having a backlog of claims and concept art to work from. Obviously the biggest thing we're all going to be searching for, forever, are folks able to work on tilesets as well as armor + clothing. Those folks are by far and away the rarest and most valuable. Similarly it sounds as though a lot of provinces are hurting for writers who can specialize in forward - facing writing like dialogue and quest writing rather than purely on lore, poetry, and so on.

I don't know enough about the modelling asset pipeline to be able to comment much on how that should be organized, but if folks see it as more inherently collaborative would that run the risk of "too many cooks," or do you think the more effecient spread to be worth that risk? Honest question.

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 06:04 AM

The other thing we could do is put together I photo album and try to get it to go viral on r/gaming

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:05 AM

Also, it might be worth coordinating our recruitment pushes. Knowing who's going to drop a trailer and when, who's planning on doing recruitment pushes and from where, it might be useful information. And @Larrian (Morrowind) get your butt online, I know you have opinions on this.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:05 AM

Oh hey

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 06:05 AM

Don’t know how many people were around the last time that happened but it was insane.

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:05 AM

Good idea Claire.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:05 AM

What are we talking about?

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:05 AM

Redoing how we handle recruitment, no more seagulling. We're talking about what skills are needed and where.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:05 AM

Oh right

Yes I have big opinions on this

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:06 AM

Pinned a message.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:06 AM

We need a priority thing

That gets reviewed each month

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:06 AM

We have a WIP sheet for listing how many folks are needing for each province, just pinned it babu

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:07 AM

Also @Joseph Crowell I'm sorry for being hard on you earlier, I get your frustrations 100%

Thanks Ennie

I'll take a look at it

I don't have perms to look at the doc btw

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:08 AM

@Joseph Crowell could you add Larryboi to the perms?

Also I was going to mention, after the next round of trailers that are currently being worked on are put out, it might be worth organizing a pan-project trailer for the next 11/11.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:09 AM

My concern is that it's imperative that Morrowind gets their pre-release out, but we can't without the like, five tilesets we need minimum

And I get that other projects do too

But I'm talking bout Morrowind only atm

Cyrodiil has most of the tileset masters atm

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:10 AM

I'd be willing to put IB and Roscrea specifically at a higher priority for just now, as they've been waiting for longer than MW.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:10 AM

Ehh

Maybe Roscrea

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:10 AM

IB has been waiting for years now Larry, they still got nuffin.

We've got just the one.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:11 AM

They have Kelretu and Hayden still

And numerous miscellaneous modellers

Morrowind has one

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:11 AM

Apparently they've been somewhat MIA

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:11 AM

or two active modellers

Hmm they have kind of

Regardless, all I see happening is Morrowind being left out in the dirt again if we're not somewhat high on the priority list

Besides, this only applies if the person applying doesn't select a preference

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:15 AM

RN I think the highest priority, project wise, would be Roscrea and Atmora, as ya'll are the closest to release/need the push the most. Then IB and MW as both projects have some pretty severe bottlenecking being held up by asset issues. Than CYR and BM, as CYR already has their prerelease out and BM needs other folk more than they do modellers for the moment. No idea where I'd stick Elsweyr on that list, I don't know enough about them to really make anything resembling an intelligible suggestion.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:15 AM

I'd say priority would go

Roscrea

Atmora

Morrowind/IB

Elsweyr

Cyrodiil

Black Marsh

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:16 AM

Sounds good to me. On the subject of a pan-project trailer, if BM can get an environmental modeler soonish we could potentially have a couple shots ready in time for 11/11 if we wanted to do that.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:19 AM

My argument though against IB being so high on the list is because Iliac Bay has some existing tilesets, like the Crypts and a lot of architecture, Morrowind has no architecture, and only placeholder Oblivion mod assets

We have no assets for any of the great houses, other than some for Redoran

It'd be simpler if we just let people apply to whatever province they want, but have a maximum of two

And a thing that says 'Choosing one Province is preferred, but choose 2 if you absolutely must'

Or something like that

We have a great working relationship with everyone except when it comes to recruitment

That's the thing that starts arguments

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:21 AM

Oh we're definitely still letting folk choose their province bb, we just still are getting plenty of folk who send in "I'd be willing to work wherever that needs it! I just wanna help out!

" and this discussion was started to help us avoid seagulling those folks.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:22 AM

What I'm sayin is is that we shouldn't have that as an option in the first place

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:23 AM

I promise you that no matter what we do, people will find a way to say something to that effect.

It's better that we collaborate on this stuff anyways. Knowing what we all need is a good way to look out for each other rather than competing.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:24 AM

That's true

Wait until we get to Elsweyr, I can't see them cooperating, they never talk to us

Agh

Maybe I shouldn't have said that

Regardless, I'm not optimistic that this won't cause rifts

Most of us should play nice but it takes one person to not to veto this and make it impossible

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:26 AM

If it's a choice between risking people being unwilling to share what they need, and letting us continue to look at each other as competition, I'd still pick this.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:27 AM

Agreed

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:27 AM

Even if not all the provinces cooperate, we already know from this conversation that some will, and that's worth it's weight in gold already.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Feb-18 06:27 AM

That's a very good point

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 06:37 AM

if we talk about time schedules, the plan (allthough maybe already unrealistic because many are not as active as planned) was to release Atmora end of 2018; and Roscrea 2019. we actually dont need tilesets, but at least 2 new sets of decent armor as reward (thats much less than civilised teams need) else, 1 or 2 more frostblessed creatures would be very important. They are crystal creatures, so it shouldnt be such a sculpting hardship, seems doable. Same for texturing them. Ofc we need to evenly distribute the recruits, but maybe also with one eye on the scheduled releases; and after the releases we could put any of our members to the next province to release.... (i carry that idea around with me for a while now....) the only "work" we still have is actually general implementing of the remaining MQ and more than a dozen SQ + voices. thats a lot of work, but its also clear we dont need every field of recruits for that....

civilised provinces teams

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 06:48 AM

I’m not sure how well the priority thing works.

What both Cyrodiil and Roscrea have done is come up with a plan (release in x, have this done by x) and worked out roughly what we need to do to achieve it.

Then when we have pinch points we go out and do targeted recruitments. Like after Bruma Cyrodiil went on a massive tileset modeller drive cos we need to finish tjecother cities and Roscrea is just about to start an implementer drive because that’s easily about to become a pinch point for us.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 06:50 AM

if it comes down to it, we really only need one major tileset modeler in the immediate future to work on farrun

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 06:51 AM

That’s not to say we don’t love the additional people we get along the way, but why should Roscrea trump anyone in terms of priority?

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 06:51 AM

although my team is pretty angry at me about Escha right now and I might have mass quitting session

but I really had no choice at that point, I had to do something

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 06:51 AM

Anyway, what I highly reccomend is all provinces come up with a similar plan and then ruthlessly (but nicely) execute it. (edited)

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 06:52 AM

although in the heat of it I meay have made a few suggestions for why we weren't getting recruits to him

including accusing him of not recruiting to keep the farrun set from being completed so we would be forced to cut it

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 06:53 AM

Mainly we set Roscrea high on the priority list simply because we've heard ya'll have been struggling with that for a while. Again, this is the most WIP it could possibly be, and we're gonna be dealing with more than our fair share of miscommunication and misunderstanding.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 06:53 AM

which of course I know isn't true

he would never intentionally harm the project

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 06:54 AM

And especially break that plan d wn. Cyrodiil need all our city tilesets, but obviously we won’t get them all soon so we’ve chosen two to prioritise now, two for when they’re finished etc with landscaping, interiors and writing all working to that plan but a few months behind so we’re all set up and ready to go when new stuff becomes available.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 06:54 AM

the reality is we haven't been able to pick up a tileset modeler for that area for about a year because other provinces were recruiting all modelers first

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 06:56 AM

That’s why we started targeting - By the time we got round to applying someone else had already snaffled them up.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 06:58 AM

that's also why we used to try to limit the amount of provinces active in the collaboration

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 06:58 AM

ruthlessly doesnt sound like we work together claire, but oay

*okay

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 06:58 AM

because there wen't enough recruits

if I've found a way to make it work though without needing to compete for members then that makes me happy as shit

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 06:59 AM

@Hannes821 well I mean keep totally focused on the plan, any upcoming obsticles that can be nipped in the bud etc. (edited)

So really active project management rather than passive which (I might be wrong) I get the feeling happens a lot. (edited)

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 07:00 AM

passive doesn't work

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 07:00 AM

so, if thats the point then maybe we completely stop the community recruitment page, and we also dont use that application side either (or force people to choose aprovince)

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 07:01 AM

the members lose sense of urgency and get complacent when you don't actively push them at least some (edited)

1

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 07:01 AM

i am okay with it, my team worked over 2 years that way

so we dont play the community card but strenghten each teams identity and PR

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 07:02 AM

I can switch it to combo boxes with 1st adn second province preference

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 07:02 AM

thats a good idea.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 07:02 AM

instead of a mass check box for everyone

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 07:02 AM

you know, i got all these new applicants mails too, and now again i am afraid to answer people

so i dont step on anyones toes

its the same like with the forum

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 07:02 AM

go ahead

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 07:02 AM

sure?

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 07:03 AM

yeah most disappeared within a day

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 07:03 AM

okay

well, if they are in ANY bs team still we all somehow benefit

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 07:03 AM

they didn't read my job post right (volunteer) and thought it was a paying job

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 07:03 AM

I put a load of links and tips on project management on the lead forum.

Lots of stuff around motivation.

When Joe says push you actually have to pull.

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 07:04 AM

^

I push too much

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 07:04 AM

A large part of being a lead at this level is setting the culture of the project, keeping a sense of excitement, milestones to work to (but also making it not feel terrible if they don’t got hit in time so people don’t get demotivated).

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 07:05 AM

and sometimes lose my temper and say things I don't mean when they're trying to have a go at me about them not performing

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 07:08 AM

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/11704-project-management-tips-and-tricks/

I highly reccomend everyone reads the link about push vs pull styles. On a hobby project you can only ever really use pull styles. In a work place environment limited amounts of push for very short term goals can work but over use will absolutely destroy morale.

Also, people have done studies and 80-90 % of the culture of a team is set by the leaders so if you want a happy active team you have to spend a crap ton of effort fostering the culture of a happy active team.

That’s why the plan and sub-goals within the plan are so important - humans like to know what’s going on and it makes them happy:)

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 08:48 AM

well depends on the members as well, if you only have "follower types" in the team you get that huge dependency on leads, interedendingly

also, there is a limit of the "be nice and smile to everything" approach, i tried.

eventhough people stay on the server, doesnt mean they work or take something seriously, its a personal matter and depends on your members

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 08:54 AM

That's not what I mean

So Roscrea and Cyrodiil (to a slightly lesser extent) all largely drama free. This is because we don't tolerate drama rather than because we smile and be nice to everything.

But it's the leads who set the tone. If you have leads causing drama then that's obviously OK so everyone else does it too.

if you choose to remove inactive people that's up to you. I don't v often because I'm lazy but I did a purge of the DC forums back in December but removal of inactive members is nothing to do with being nice or not.

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 09:00 AM

its okay, i didnt say that, i just interpreted it differently, what you said above.

i flew over your older document once again

and i copied it in that council drive

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 09:01 AM

it's not perfect but a lot of it is adapted from what I do in my day job to working in a volunteer environment

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 09:01 AM

well, that rotation system stuff was also only planned for those applicants who didnt choose any prefered province; so boosting team PR and still distributing the "homeless modders" could work together, and that was the idea, i just forgot to say that that moment before.

i thought a few weeks ago, we had the same points in the same topic

adding an motivation to chose a prefered province on that website is good.

Bellatrix 03-Feb-18 09:03 AM

if people don't have a preferred province then pointing out who is actively looking for their skillset could definitely help

2

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 09:04 AM

^

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 09:05 AM

and then ofc, dont send them all the same place if everyone wants that person (edit: type of artist) for example. (edited)

so the idea was to translate the need into a percentage and then send the people in a rotation that respects this percentage

for example, MW and Atmora both need 2 writers, and another team 1

now, we get 5 people who want to write without specific province

then one to atmora, one to MW one to that other team and then MW and morrah again

on a regular basis, no suprises or pickfight

the point with that is also, every province wants to get more general applications too, and they are always max 1 person behind the schedule

so the distribution would be fair. the point is setting the need appropriately

and that needs some balancing between provinces. i tell you clearly atmora would not benefit from that, because on the paper we dont need as much as you guys do

if a vacant position is closed, it would have to be noted in the list, so the others get more ofc.

so that requires basic trust and honesty

for example if people with prefered provinces joined during the rotation and filled a gap

same way, after every province got their people, or once a month, the demand could be updated

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 09:15 AM

actually let me take 2 off the 3d modelers on that list

1

2 of the ones I was recruiting seem to have worked out and are doing starter claims

2

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 09:16 AM

i mean if we can get the vacant positions closed we can still add new people in our teams, its about the relation of the distribution

Kelretu, you have a life again

Kelretu 03-Feb-18 09:17 AM

Mmh? What do you mean?

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 09:18 AM

haha he has plenty to do lol

always did

Kelretu 03-Feb-18 09:18 AM

(Side note: I haven't read all the messages yet.)

(Will do that when I get back home from Uni.)

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 09:22 AM

oh you just got 2 colleagues so now the team grows and you can focus maybe a bit on claims distribution and your own claims

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 03:00 PM

okay, so as i see it, there are only 3 ways we can choose for the recruiting: 1) anarchy as it is, for undecided people, the first one / strongest one wins -> i dont have a problem with it, but we had requests that people feel this is unfair (other teams, not mine) 2) stating fixed relations where to send the people without preferences as above. From the excel chart you provided i could make an example: i assumed the need for writers and leveldesigners to be about equal. Then, every 5th writer would go to one of the 5 teams in the list, one after each other; before it starts again with cyrodil. every 4th LD would go to each of the 4 LD teams on the list. If roscrea suddenly needs more for a good reason, this ratio could be changed for some time, and i assume other teams would be wise enough to fairly negotiate. + this method is transparent and formally the most equitarian - this needs some abstract rules, coordination and trust, its not as efficient as people just jumping in teams

3) we send people with no preference completely to Atronach Forge this would bring some changes and you might dislike it because of a "losing control", but lets think about this for a moment: Teams would become an higher instance requesting stuff there, whilst AF is a more official frame to catch newbies and carry them on working level where they are too experienced for AU. + they have a bigger pool of experience in one spot as in any team, so the potential cooperation is better + they could specialise better like in bigger companies and gain experience and efficiency faster + teams could hire known members of BS later, when its clear that the Forge member would be working a while on team assets + teams might have to spent less time in briefing newbies + the work would be more focused on results + no further planning like in 2) needed, still, no pickfights like in 1) anymore, its transparent and easy and fair - teams loose the direct contact and the "personal touch" with new members, and shrink - teams would have to open their work schedule somewhat and work "half public" in the forge for assets (eventhough i think that most council members already have good insight in other teams etc; so i dont think this is a big change in general) - AF might need more staff - a part of the social character of the teams would get lost, members would get exchangable (also an advantage though, especially when people disappear)

i dont think the pick fights are an big issue, but i think we should solve small problems and then focus on more urgent things

so i guess its good to form an opinion on that together now

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 06:18 PM

OH and Hrafnir II was working on foreign and native languages in 4 northern and western provinces, he could possibly also work with southern and eastern ones so the language is consistent within all Tamriel (?) he did some linguistic research and made believable concepts for languages before, quite a few times. maybe a valuable input and consistency would be good for all of us (?)

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 06:24 PM

he's done some work in Cyrodiil too

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 06:44 PM

hmm short question, has anyone an idea how i can get hands on the Havok Behavior Tool?

for custom hkx files ?

i mean it seems support for download from the official side ended in 2015 (?)

animations, especillay for encounter. i want to fix an existing hkx project that we have since over a year ^^

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 06:48 PM

you could ask Aerisarn

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 07:01 PM

thanks

Hannes821 03-Feb-18 08:14 PM

it helped, now i am happy.

can sleep well if i got rid of all CK warnings

last summer when i started cleaning up, it was over 2600....

gn

Joseph Crowell 03-Feb-18 09:03 PM

nn

Sage of Ice 03-Feb-18 09:09 PM

The Elsweyr team has their own group of dedicated Ta'agra specialists who've been working with them for quite some time, so that's why Hrafnir's not directly involved with them

And the reason he prioritized HR and HF languages is because those provinces' languages are the only ones he hadn't really worked on at all up to that point

Aldmeris, Cyrodilic, Ayleidoon, Dunmeris, etc. had already been worked on, but there was literally nothing on the Bretic languages, and very little on Yoku languages (edited)

At any rate, those are all part of his general work and aren't meant to be specific to just IB, any team can draw from his languages, which gives the consistency

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 09:13 PM

I've been stealing bits and pieces of his work on old nordic whenever I need to deal with remnents of the 1st Nordic Empire.

Sage of Ice 03-Feb-18 09:14 PM

In fact, I think it'd be really neat if all the projects borrowed at least bits and pieces from each other's languages, where appropriate/possible

It'd make Tamriel seem more integrated and would be a good way of subtly giving more depth to everything

2

Rubaedo 03-Feb-18 09:15 PM

Absolutely!

Hannes821 04-Feb-18 04:20 AM

Tamriel and Atmora

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 03:18 PM

Deeza is trying to forcefully have me removed from the leadership and has had Xae remove me on the forums because of Escha

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 03:18 PM

Leadership of IB? How come?

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 03:22 PM

because Deeza is angry at me about Escha stepping down

although he hasn't been here at all hardly for years

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 03:23 PM

Escha stepped down?

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 03:23 PM

yeah I asked him to step down because he wasn't running the 3d department (edited)

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 03:24 PM

Ah I see

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 03:24 PM

then instead of stepping down he quit

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 03:24 PM

OK, that is a shame as Escha is so talented

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 03:24 PM

yeah

but it's not Deeza's place to have me removed as a lead on the fourms as a result and it's actually a charter violation

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 03:25 PM

OK, so what happens now?

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 03:26 PM

you all can talk with them about it and have a vote. I actually suggest removing Deeza from the lead position but the council needs to vote on it

on the council thread on the forums which I no longer have access to

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 03:28 PM

What ever the situation, you are entitled to a defense

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 03:40 PM

judging by this I'm pretty sure I know what's going on

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 03:40 PM

Should also show me

Bellatrix 04-Feb-18 04:15 PM

At what point does section 4.2 of the charter kick in?

Cos this is a bit of a mess. At least it’s all on private channels.

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 04:17 PM

I think we are there now

Deeza (Iliac Bay) 04-Feb-18 04:20 PM

First, I would like to make it clear that I did not ask for anyone to be demoted on the forums. Nor did I request that Xae contact Joe. I did contact Xae in relation to the current situation, but only in regard to enquiring about organising a potential fork. I cannot speak for Xae and did not direct his actions, but I am sure he is quite capable of speaking for himself.

Second, although I did not sign the message posted in the devs_only forum, as I intend to step down as Iliac Bay team lead in any event, I agree with its contents.

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 04:21 PM

yeah we're there

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 04:22 PM

OK, there seems to be some confusion as to what everybody wants from here

Hannes821 04-Feb-18 04:26 PM

hmmm so, i have no idea, and we must say, as people outside of IB its not clear who works hard etc and its also not our job to judge this. but for all of us, it would be better this can be settled in a civilised manner. Skyrim is 7 years old soon, we cant afford loosing the last dinosaurs here, no matter whose fault or what it is.

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 04:29 PM

the team leads are all going to quit and start a competing mod if I don't step down from the lead position

because they don't like the way I talk to people apparently

Hannes821 04-Feb-18 04:29 PM

whuaa thats crazy

like, really?

Bellatrix 04-Feb-18 04:31 PM

I've not been though anything like this before

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/6243-beyond-skyrim-constitution/

Beyond Skyrim Constitution

The Beyond Skyrim Constitution -- Condensed Version -- The Constitution codifies all of the unwritten conventions that in the past have dic...

section 4.2 of the charter is definitely worth a read

Hannes821 04-Feb-18 04:32 PM

i tell you frankly, without professional people to talk here, many projects will loose the reason to be here. i dont see anyone covering general BS management like you

i mean i cant talk about your province, your team. But BS needs a general management and web support.

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 04:36 PM

Yes, we do need that

Deleted User 04-Feb-18 04:38 PM

is there really no way to resolve this without resorting to people stepping down? That would be a huge issue for IB either way, as good leadership is not easily replaceable

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 04:38 PM

It seems not no

OK, so we need to move this forward

Bellatrix 04-Feb-18 04:39 PM

But how do we do that?

As a lot of the people involved are in this chat

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 04:39 PM

A separate chat seems fair in that case

Bellatrix 04-Feb-18 04:40 PM

or if as in dev chat they're trying to work it out internally maybe we wait for a while before invoking 4.2?

1

Hannes821 04-Feb-18 04:40 PM

pardon me, could we consider to separate somehow the BS responsibilities from the IB responsibilities ? i mean, consider Joe working on an cross province team? i think he is literally the last of the older members who know things, isnt that true?

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 04:41 PM

I agree @Bellatrix let's see how that pans out

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 04:44 PM

I could join the leadership of another team

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 04:44 PM

Rather than IB?

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 04:45 PM

marketing would be most appropriate

yeah

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 04:46 PM

Well, PR / Marketing doesn't have a Council Seat

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 04:46 PM

then.. does anyone want to take me on anywhere?

that team has no leadership without me

I can't say that I believe they'll last very long

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 04:48 PM

IB?

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 04:48 PM

yeah

Deeza is already stepping down

to dept lead of writing

and Sage was stepping down to regular member because he's going ot medical school (edited)

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 04:49 PM

I am sure IB will be fine. Other provinces have survived similar challenges

Bellatrix 04-Feb-18 04:51 PM

Is there anyone on IB who would consider taking on the role of lead in the interim when the 3 of you step down if that's what happens?

Deleted User 04-Feb-18 04:51 PM

honestly, I cant say much more than this since Atmora came out of the same situation. Right before joining BS, we made a project wide vote for the previous leader to step down. We had very good reasons to do so, as their negative behavior and inactivity as well as questionable decisions were holding us back, a lot. And since then, we've made progress by leaps and bounds, so there's that

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 04:51 PM

I am sure someone would be willing in the interim

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 04:54 PM

I can't really do everything I do without being on the council

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 04:55 PM

When I was given the role of PR lead (co-lead) it was made clear at the time it did not have a seat

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 04:55 PM

this is really screwing everyone and everything I've worked to accomplish

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 04:56 PM

Well, giving PR a seat on the Council would require a Council vote

And would force me to step down which I would not be happy about

Hannes821 04-Feb-18 04:58 PM

i was always for having the same rule for all teams

and for stronger Cross-province teams in general to get more proffesional

is that even a way to argue "together jumping down the cliff, but you first" ...anyways i believe people have reasons for their actions, if they love the project.

but excuse me the salty remark joe, rob is right

you said no to a seat for pr

i think we should take AU AF and PR very precious

and then, taking you into atmora, sorry but the project grew over the time, thats a bit suddenly, although i have nothing against you...

dunno what to do either

Deeza (Iliac Bay) 04-Feb-18 05:26 PM

So here is my perspective. Until very recently I have always had, overall, a good working relationship with Joe. Stormy at times, as working relationships can be, but overall positive. However at the same time, I also kept hearing uncomfortable reports from other team members. People who felt they had been victimised, put under too much pressure, or unjustifiably attacked. I could list a number of names. And because I had always personally had a good working relationship with Joe, I was skeptical of these reports, thinking maybe there was just some misunderstanding, or hasty messaging. But over time, even though each individual incident was explicable (this person was being too sensitive, the other guy was to blame too), over time it all started to add up to a pattern. And there were common elements to it. People leaving or falling out with him after he took actions without consulting them, or criticised them in a harsh manner (intentionally or otherwise).

And after the most recent incident I felt I could no longer ignore this. Not only had one of our most valued contributors felt he had no choice but to quit the team rather than continue with Joe as leader, I was contacted by several other senior team members who felt the same way. I have always tried to do what I think is in the best interests of the project, as I see them at the time. I know that Joe sincerely cares about the project and has put a lot into it. So have I. But I have to weigh his undoubtedly sizeable contributions against the damage he has (again, perhaps unintentionally) inflicted on the team.

So I approached him and told him about the situation. He countered that I was in no position to talk because I had not been active enough as a lead recently. I accepted this, and proposed that it would be better for Iliac Bay if we both took a step back from leadership and let someone with more time on their hands do the heavy lifting.

Joe did not accept this suggestion, so I consulted with the other team directors and it was suggested that those members who did not wish to continue with Joe as lead to write a letter of resignation explaining their reasons and suggesting that he took up a different position in the team. It was always their, and my, intention that this would remain within the team and some kind of peaceful solution could be found without public unpleasantness. In the event things did not turn out so well, however, we took backup actions including making backups of the team files and contacting DC site administrators regarding backing up/possibility of splitting the forums.

Unfortunately, Xae chose to contact Joe directly before we were able to raise the matter in private, which forced the signatories to the letter to post it in the Dev forum to counter Joe's perspective (it could not be kept in the Team Lead forum because the signatories would not have been able to defend themselves).

Bellatrix 04-Feb-18 05:28 PM

@Deeza (Iliac Bay) are you and sage stepping down too?

Deeza (Iliac Bay) 04-Feb-18 05:28 PM

I consider it deeply unfortunate that it happened like this, and remain saddened by the situation. I wish it could have been done another way, but I tried over the past few years to muddle through, and it just led us to this situation.

Sage has been planning to step down from the leadership for some time as he will be starting medical school and will no longer have as much time to commit.

As I indicated above, I accepted Joe's criticism that I am no longer active enough to play a full leadership role and intend to step down to the Writing Director position vacated by Sage.

1shoedpunk 04-Feb-18 05:31 PM

If this isn't a situation which could be resolved internally, a case should be brought to the council.

Sage of Ice 04-Feb-18 05:32 PM

I will add that, up until med school starts, I will continue to stay on as one of the IB leads, as was always the plan

I am not naive, and once med school starts I will stay on in an advisory role

I am also very upset that the situation had to play out this way, and I think I can speak for everyone involved that we wish it hadn't happened either

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-18 05:33 PM

I agree

It is most unfortunate

1shoedpunk 04-Feb-18 05:34 PM

I hope you guys understand that if you try to fork the project you wouldn't be able to use the heightmap unless you got an okay from Morcroft.

I understand that it's been resolved now, from what I've seen

Sage of Ice 04-Feb-18 05:37 PM

We're not forking the project

Yes

1shoedpunk 04-Feb-18 05:37 PM

But I don't want people to think that that is in any way a feasible option in the future

The heightmap only has permission for use in Beyond Skyrim

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 05:38 PM

this was arguably the shittiest way to go about this

if you had all come to me in private and said uniformly that you wanted me to step down you might still have me on the team (edited)

1shoedpunk 04-Feb-18 05:40 PM

We aren't going to be a successful project if we fork each other over.

1

(I could not resist the pun, I apologize for the levity)

But seriously

Sage of Ice 04-Feb-18 06:30 PM

We would have preferred to approach you privately, and this was what we originally planned to do. But following your response to Deeza's initial broaching of the subject, and then accusing myself, Deeza, TOYB, and Xae of conspiring against you in the project lead channel, we felt we had no other option but to respond to these allegations. (edited)

Joseph Crowell 04-Feb-18 06:35 PM

maybe Xae shouldn't ahve done what he did

and this all wouldn't have kicked off

so he - as he has for the last 3 years - only cares about getting control of the website I've built

considering the way he himself has treated people - let's cite Amadaun as an example - that's a terrible idea

Hannes821 05-Feb-18 05:45 AM

atmora decided to stay out of this, because we dont want any political issues, we want to focus on our work. We hope that there is some solution inside IB and with the other things as well. We did what we could, but suddenly having a new director is too much. And we wish the best for IB and BS.

also, on a side note, it would be nice if Bard could try to talk with me again, he still blocked me ...

we never had personal beef, but i think its some "radiation" from other peoples conflicts and it wasnt necessary to kick me or block me.... anyways

but i was reacting harsh that moment too, it did upset me how he revenged himself when it was a missunderstanding...

i should say sorry as well.

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-18 06:02 AM

Bard is not on this chat either

Hannes821 05-Feb-18 06:03 AM

well i hope we get everything back to normal and he is also forgiving.

as i forgive him

he was nervous i guess and had some bad experience before

Hannes821 05-Feb-18 06:18 AM

Joseph Crowell#8831 just left Beyond Skyrim: Development Server. Bye bye Joseph Crowell#8831... (edited)

ok, thats a change

Kelretu 05-Feb-18 06:18 AM

Give him some time.

Hannes821 05-Feb-18 06:21 AM

yes

Bellatrix 05-Feb-18 06:23 AM

Are all the permissions correct now? I can’t tell on my phone.

And yeah, I got a message from joe saying he’s off discord for a bit because it’s hard watching IB move on. Which regardless of what did or didn’t go on is completely understandable.

Kelretu 05-Feb-18 06:24 AM

Ub3r needs to be promoted to lead here, but only @Larrian (Morrowind) can do that.

Larrian (Morrowind) 05-Feb-18 06:25 AM

Done

Kelretu 05-Feb-18 06:25 AM

Thank you very much.

Larrian (Morrowind) 05-Feb-18 06:25 AM

Fuck

1

No it worked

Bellatrix 05-Feb-18 06:28 AM

I never know what the aubergine is supposed to mean:)

ub3rman123 05-Feb-18 06:29 AM

Sometimes an eggplant is just an eggplant.

Hannes821 05-Feb-18 06:53 AM

@ub3rman123 welcome in the council. We wish the best for IB.

tell me if i can help

oh and, do you seriously still think MathLeBeu does good LD

sorry i just had to ask, when i think of you, this answer always appears in myhead

but maybe he improved, and he is a nice guy

just joking

ub3rman123 05-Feb-18 06:54 AM

Hah, he's still got a lot to learn.

I haven't seen him around in a while though.

Hannes821 05-Feb-18 06:54 AM

he watched one of my age of empires games recently lol.

Rubaedo 05-Feb-18 06:55 AM

Welcome to the secret ring of power which pulls the strings of Beyond Skyrim from our dark tower, @ub3rman123. We'll send over the black robes in the morning.

1

Hannes821 05-Feb-18 09:04 AM

talking of this BS, i just realised no one uploaded an proper BS emojii before

as i had the snow flake and atmora up, here comes the BS

Hannes821 05-Feb-18 12:31 PM

Bard accepted my apology for the rude tone, but didnt say sorry himself. And suggested me (us?) to also apologize towards Thras. hmmm. I tried to keep them in BS; honestly. I could say sorry for the good sound it has, but i wouldnt know which actions i had done wrong (?). anyhow, we are in working conditions and without bad blood, that should do for now. Lets move on, shall we?

1

Meglos (Morrowind) 05-Feb-18 02:01 PM

Thras? What's Thras?

1

Bellatrix 05-Feb-18 02:25 PM

Just so everyone knows, I've taken over paying for the BS website from Joe

it's $25 (not sure if US or AUS) a month

Happy for anyone else to do it instead:D

Not sure what the solution is in the long term

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-18 02:29 PM

Perhaps ask for people who are willing to contribute to do so

Hannes821 05-Feb-18 03:28 PM

he blocked me again

Bellatrix 05-Feb-18 03:40 PM

I'd honestly just forget it. Rob and Samuri healer are in here for Elswhyr and in terms of other provinces getting stuff done with Elswhyr they're doing a really good job of that. We don't really need any more drama this week.

Hannes821 05-Feb-18 03:58 PM

@Robcbwilson i honestly believe that this direct message diplomacy is the root of all evil. We will not get harmony and trust here without transparency and publicity between each other. if Bard says "i have to ...in council chat".... Again, as long as council members speculate about each others motivations and feel right to suddenly take aggressive measures we will not get any peace in here. You should know thats my motivation. But he again might think i want to discredit him by condensing in a neutral way our relation. But i think this is important, how else can we trust each other and avoid future drama if we dont know each other? Him: If I say something personally to you on PM, I don't expect to return to 30 messages and then to hear you've gone and been talking about it to the council. me: well, i take this very serious. And i say it in a condensed and neutral way in the council. i believe that you should be there in the first place, and secondly, all this mess happened because we didnt communicate so there is that. people need to get to used to each other, and need to know how we relate. thats my point, but i really will ignore him now, as claire says, and you should maybe consider stoppong dm diplomacy with him; its messing up good relations in the long run, he has no reason anymore to stay away from here, nobody is doing any harm to him. (edited)

ok i willl really ignore that topic and fine.

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-18 04:00 PM

Hannes821 05-Feb-18 04:01 PM

i know you just try good

dont be sad or anything

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-18 04:02 PM

I dislike conflict, especially when I am friends with both parties involved

1

Hannes821 05-Feb-18 04:03 PM

now, sorry for the useless bard episode, i try to get everything good on my accounts

lets move on with BS, shall we

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-18 04:05 PM

Yes!

ub3rman123 05-Feb-18 06:17 PM

@Bellatrix Thanks for taking that up. Something we've been discussing on the IB chats is opening up donations strictly for those sort of hard cost things.

I haven't figured out any of the logistics of it though.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-18 11:00 AM

Do any provinces have / have planned scroll models that you can read that you’d be happy to share with Roscrea.

For some of the cult history having it in books doesn’t make much sense as roscreans aren’t really advanced to the point of having books so we were thinking of trying to make a scroll function as a primitive book. There are rumours that someone may have done this already so though I’d ask:)

Rubaedo 08-Feb-18 11:09 AM

Nothing in MW or BM, sad to say. MW is sticking to books, and early Argonians tended to lean on wall carvings over and above printed literature.

Kelretu 08-Feb-18 11:22 AM

IB doesn't have any so far. Though it might be something that could work nicely there.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-18 11:28 AM

If we do manage to come up with something we can push it to assets so other provinces can use if they want.

Rubaedo 08-Feb-18 11:30 AM

That'd be lovely, thank you!

Hannes821 08-Feb-18 03:00 PM

we tried that, the problem is the reading animation.

we had concepts and we have scroll retextures, but no new animations. aerisan would be needed...

Bellatrix 08-Feb-18 03:03 PM

Ah.

Could you pop into Roscrea chat? There’s a discussion about maybe modifying the elder scrolls animation. Would be good to get your input if you e tried it.

Kelretu 08-Feb-18 03:21 PM

You'd just need gamebryo animations though. You don't necessarily need to bother Aerisarn for that.

Hannes821 08-Feb-18 04:20 PM

70.000kb, we hit the max arrays in CK

with the last merge now

@Kelretu that would be great, and i would be very eager to learn. want to do that myself

Hannes821 08-Feb-18 05:08 PM

@ub3rman123 end of last year, 28.12. you edited that striped esm we got from joe, was that any essential update? we will start using it now...

ub3rman123 08-Feb-18 05:58 PM

I don't recall having edited the stripped .esm. I probably didn't do anything important and/or intentional.

Hannes821 08-Feb-18 06:26 PM

hmm okay, just got a notification on the gdrive folder ``

ah i think you asked for it maybe. well doesnt matter, thanks for answering

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-18 07:01 PM

Donations are not allowed to Beyond Skyrim as an entity. If people do their own indiegogos or whatever and mention their role as a reference that's fine

Like if someone's hard drive got shot or something

Or if they're streaming on their personal channel

ub3rman123 08-Feb-18 07:03 PM

I figured at least I can take donations on my streams and forward them to whoever's got BS bills. It's an easy way to handle the infrastructure.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-18 07:05 PM

You can have a personal arrangement

I mean, that's your call

but you couldn't like, call it a beyond skyrim fundraiser or something

Hannes821 09-Feb-18 04:00 AM

i think people could start a private initiative to raise money for their private equip (and state that it may benefit BS besides themselfs) but i guess the moment BS directly accepts donations in the public (Stating it is for the reason of BS directly) its getting problematic. I know thats annyoing. If i would ever restart a skyrim mod team, i would not promise anyone to do it non-commercially, but its the charta and the general permission terms....

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-18 07:25 AM

Part of it is we've had some serious large offers in the past and it wouldn't be at all fair to anyone if anyone took those people up on it

Not to mention it would be disingenous to that donor as to how the money is actually being applied

Larrian (Morrowind) 09-Feb-18 08:11 AM

I don't think there's anything wrong with someone setting up a personal paypal for donations to a single modder

Other than that if there's donations they should go only towards maintaining websites etc.

ub3rman123 09-Feb-18 08:13 AM

What are our present expenses? Is it just the website at the moment?

Larrian (Morrowind) 09-Feb-18 08:22 AM

I believe so

Bellatrix 09-Feb-18 10:09 AM

I’m honestly not sure.

The website was all joe mentioned.

Robcbwilson 09-Feb-18 10:14 AM

As far as I know, it is just the website. I am personally against monetisation at any level for BS, it opens up a whole can of worms

If we have a cost, we can do what we did with Morrowind and those team members who wanted to contribute could

Kelretu 09-Feb-18 10:17 AM

What costs did Morrowind have?

Robcbwilson 09-Feb-18 12:05 PM

I think it was a tree model or something we wanted to purchase for the team. Was a while back

Kelretu 09-Feb-18 02:14 PM

Ah oaky.

@Hannes821 I looked into it and apparently I was wrong about books not using behaviours.

Hannes821 09-Feb-18 03:55 PM

we could maybe still work it out, thank you Kelretu for your investigation. sadly we only came to the test stage and then dropped it for the reason of effort

Kelretu 09-Feb-18 03:56 PM

I made a small scroll animation as a test yesterday.

I'll talk to Aerisarn and see if he can help me import it.

1

Hannes821 09-Feb-18 03:57 PM

oh and joe dropped an excel doc with expenses, Google suite 350 bugs a year alone (but we didnt use yet) if i remember right

it was never discussed if we need it, too.

some general things we might talk about

Kelretu 09-Feb-18 04:05 PM

Who can access the website settings now by the way? Cause I might have forgotten my password.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-18 04:18 PM

I don’t know. As far as I know I just pay for it

Hannes821 09-Feb-18 04:21 PM

are you talking about wordpress, the beyond skyrim page?

or about DC ?

Joe, rob and me are on wordpress

Kelretu 09-Feb-18 04:22 PM

The beyondskyrim.org one.

Where the mails are hosted.

Hannes821 09-Feb-18 04:23 PM

https://beyondskyrim.org/

Joseph Crowell

Beyond Skyrim Home - Beyond Skyrim

Beyond Skyrim is a massive multi-team mod project that opens the borders and brings Skyrim’s neighboring provinces to life.

ye, thats wordpress

thats the 3 of us

but joe did everything, and me some news posts (newsletters)

i can only check. what is needed?

Robcbwilson 09-Feb-18 04:23 PM

I believe that the email is via Google

Hannes821 09-Feb-18 04:24 PM

it is

you need to log in in your gmail

i already answered all applicants in the name of atmora over a week ago i believe

Kelretu@Beyondskyrim or what

Kelretu 09-Feb-18 04:24 PM

Yep

Hannes821 09-Feb-18 04:24 PM

right, directors, check your applications

though i got to say, i never heard again from anyone

as joe said, 2 or 3 joined IB and the rest was there only for the money

(which he didnt offer, they didnt read carefully)

i saw very big differences in the application mails to say the least

proffesional ones and sloppy ones

Kelretu 09-Feb-18 04:26 PM

So there is no way to get the password? Because google tells me that I should talk to a website admin.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-18 04:28 PM

I can r set it for you I believe.

Think all leads are admins. I’ve certainly set up new accounts for people on google.

Larrian (Morrowind) 10-Feb-18 01:24 AM

@1shoedpunk question about custom map markers, are we 100% sure we'll be able to implement them? Just need to know before MW goes ahead with designing ours

Hannes821 10-Feb-18 05:25 AM

he said so, we are done with all of them except 3 (because hart was busy since 8 months)

1shoedpunk 10-Feb-18 11:32 AM

I am currently not 100% sure because when I originally set them up I missed documentation on a couple pieces of it but the structure of the files that contain and map them to the index should allow for new markers to be added to the array. We need someone more familiar with flash and action script (and scale form) to solve the remaining bugs

I’m like 85% sure at this point, at least in terms of adding them to the vanilla marker set. We do have the option of building a parallel system with the same functionality but it may require skse to function

Kelretu 12-Feb-18 08:30 AM

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/13409-targeted-recruitment-of-beyond-skyrim-membership-by-joseph-crowell/

Hayden 13-Feb-18 01:11 AM

More sweet drama coming our way by the looks of it

Larrian (Morrowind) 13-Feb-18 01:39 AM

Oh ffs

Agh

I don't agree with what Joe's doing but who the fuck cares honestly

Like, it really is no big deal

Kelretu 13-Feb-18 05:16 AM

Bard seems to care, at least enough to make a forum post.

I only heard of this from other members (obviously) so I don't really know what extend this has, but as long as Joe isn't categorically harassing members I don't really care.

Hayden 13-Feb-18 08:26 AM

So what's the problem exactly? Joe wants to expand away from BS and bring aboard friends he's made in the last 5 odd years to make a game? Or is the problem simply the way he left BS? If anyone else announced their departure to focus on creating for-profit work (eg. Spectral Dragon and team) i doubt anyone would have a problem.

Then again Bard and Joe have seemed to have had a bit of history which I don't think many other teams could give a shit about? Is this more a personal thing?

Bellatrix 13-Feb-18 08:32 AM

I have no idea. If Joe has left there’s literally nothing we can do about it. I think last time people who were doing the recruiting were still members so it caused a bit of a kerfuffle.

Hayden 13-Feb-18 08:37 AM

Can anything really be done about free will though? I mean if members of BS turn around and say someone else is offering something better/different/etc., that appeals to them more, what can really be done? In the end it's just business isn't it?

Bellatrix 13-Feb-18 08:37 AM

Yeah that’s what I mean.

Hayden 13-Feb-18 08:38 AM

So what is the appropriate plan of action? Is it a simple "get over it" or something else?

Bellatrix 13-Feb-18 08:39 AM

Anyway, I think last time people were kicked out cos they were still BS members. Where as Joe isn’t...? Not sure if there’s anyone surviving from then who knows what happened @1shoedpunk ?

Hayden 13-Feb-18 08:39 AM

Joe is still a part of the PR team as far as I'm aware

Or at least intends to be last I heard

All I remember is there was a lot of drama around the time Spectral Dragon + team left and intended to go indie.

1shoedpunk 13-Feb-18 09:15 AM

There were a couple times this happened

Druid gameworks did a bit of recruiting though they primarily got talent from tesalliance

There was also jack who recruited for something that never really got off the ground and also there is plenty of recruitment from other mod projects

There’s no rule against it even if it’s frowned upon a bit

In fact dc has open recruitment forums for other projects

If he’s messaging people he knows and asking them there’s nothing wrong. In reality anyone who tends to go off onto these side projects either comes back or never would have stuck around long term anyway.

Either because they’re flakey or because they’re leaving for something professional

That’s actually one of the best case scenarios. We shouldn’t view people starting indie game projects with other members here as a failure of our rules but as a positive effect of our community

Yeah we want to make Tamriel but we are also a portfolio piece for a lot of modders and artists and actors

Hannes821 13-Feb-18 09:26 AM

hmm i think we also need to accept the open character in game development, allthough we devote so much love explicitely in our projects; most people arent like that. Though, ofc i would be happy if everyone would help my own BS project instead haha but thats life and this exchange is good; we do have a few members who are game devs or students and join atmora because of it, just from the other side.

1shoedpunk 13-Feb-18 09:27 AM

Yeah

Robcbwilson 13-Feb-18 10:10 AM

I was one of the people approached by Joe and politely declined as I want to concentrate on getting Elsweyr and the other provinces over the line

Sage of Ice 13-Feb-18 01:08 PM

The reason I think Bard is concerned is because of the manner in which Joe is approaching people

If he'd just made a recruitment post for his project like any other non-BS project, that would have been fine, but he didn't announce what he was doing (edited)

Rubaedo 13-Feb-18 01:18 PM

If he's just contacting old friends and colleagues I don't really see anything wrong with that. It's certainly uh, let's say 'distasteful,' considering everything that's happened recently, but there's really nothing we could do about this either way. He's no longer a member of BS, we have no power over him. And if people decide to work with him, that's their choice and we don't really have any right to try and stand in their way. I'm not saying I like this, I really really don't and the whole thing skeevs me out honestly, but I don't see how we could or should do anything regarding it.

Sage of Ice 13-Feb-18 01:20 PM

I agree completely

I'm just trying to explain why I think Bard was bothered enough by this to post something, beyond him just disliking Joe

Rubaedo 13-Feb-18 01:21 PM

I'm glad that I know about the situation now, at the very least.

Kelretu 13-Feb-18 01:30 PM

Apart from that, I'd certainly would like to know what it is he's working on. There aren't many Skyrim modders who decide to make real games and the two I know of are Breaking Wheel and Witanlore. The latter one is still in development and the first one was rather disappointing. (edited)

Meglos (Morrowind) 13-Feb-18 01:31 PM

He also makes anyone who joins sign an NDA, I believe

Kelretu 13-Feb-18 01:33 PM

Mmh that makes it unlikely I'll hear anything about it soon.

Hannes821 13-Feb-18 03:02 PM

whats an NDA? sorry for the noob question

Kelretu 13-Feb-18 03:04 PM

Non disclosure agreement

Rubaedo 13-Feb-18 03:05 PM

Non Disclosure Agreement, they sign a contract agreeing not to discuss their work with anyone.

1

Hannes821 13-Feb-18 03:05 PM

we have no power over him -> do you have power over anyone really? i mean anyone in BS could literally start doing whatever for themselfs since they are not paid and free ^^

you would need to sign contracts with everyone otherwise, which kind of conflicts with a hobby platform

and our approach to welcome anyone

ah ok thanks for clarification

what we call "verschwiegenheitserklärung" in german lol

well even if one signs that, it has just a theoretical value

you know, it depends on peopels character and attitude

we are international, and its hard to sue others or what. i mean really, as hobby devs we rely on trust more than anything else

but you always have people who enjoy having powers above others. that itself is not a good sign.

it eliminates exactly that trust.

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 07:23 AM

anyone, likely bard banned Joe. that is below any honour. Its really unnecessary, he wouldnt come back, and its one of this petty and personal moves that create unnecessary drama.

show some honour and talk out loud.

you are a shame for an open community of people who trust each other, whoever just was pushing for his personal agenda and policies here

how did we came to use dirty tricks ?

really i dont understand the person who did this.

something else, the invite links of the community outpost need to be refreshed, they expired because they had been based on Joes links

and as you can see he is a person non-grata and has zero permissions now.

really i advice you to dont put your personal issues with people in the public like this.

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:31 AM

Someone able to unban and reinstate Joe? I don't believe the ban was necessary at all. Is Bard in this channel?

Bellatrix 14-Feb-18 07:33 AM

No he’s not and I’d like to keep it that way.

Kelretu 14-Feb-18 07:33 AM

Seems like it wasn't Bard though:

Please do your research.

Bellatrix 14-Feb-18 07:34 AM

Does Joe need unbanning?

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:34 AM

I'd like to hear from Markus why first.

Bellatrix 14-Feb-18 07:34 AM

I mean is he actually trying to rejoin the discord.

Kelretu 14-Feb-18 07:37 AM

No idea.

Maybe @Hannes821 knows? Or did you just coincidentally see that Joe is on the ban list?

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 07:38 AM

joe told me that the invitation links for that server are expired

because they are from him

so he asked me to refresh them

and then realised he couldnt do himself

so i was checking and saw it

and yes, he didnt want to join in there again

1shoedpunk 14-Feb-18 07:40 AM

It was done last Monday so it was probably part of the initial argument

I don’t think it’s worth reopening that

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 07:41 AM

aha, so there was an argument between people of illiac bay that freezes BS discord servers?=

i dont want to open anything

but make sure that illiac things stay in illiac

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:41 AM

This isn't Iliac Bay having an issue with Joe. I'm all for unbanning him. There's no point in having him banned from the server.

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 07:42 AM

i unbanned him, ban him again if you have a reason to.

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:42 AM

We wanted him removed from leadership and that was as far as it went.

Kelretu 14-Feb-18 07:42 AM

Iliac only with on L by the way, Hannes.

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 07:42 AM

but not like "ah lets get rid of him without talking to anyone because he is annyoing"

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:42 AM

Does that fix the invite links?

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 07:42 AM

thanks kel, i keep doing that typo ^^

dunno we can try

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:42 AM

Heh, it's better than Lilac Bay.

But that can be blamed on certain fonts that don't make it clear what's an L vs an I.

1

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 07:42 AM

Lila bay

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:43 AM

IIIac Bay.

1

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 07:43 AM

its also my un-englis pronounciation maybe

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:43 AM

(Pronounced 'three-ac' bay)

Bellatrix 14-Feb-18 07:43 AM

If I misspell it it’s cos I can’t spell

Kelretu 14-Feb-18 07:43 AM

I always said we should just call it Lilac Bay

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:44 AM

i say we just call it Hammerfell again by its own. We're a strong independent province that don't need no Bretons. (edited)

Kelretu 14-Feb-18 07:44 AM

HHR? Hammerfell & High Rock?

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:44 AM

Good, good, keep the Hammerfell listed first.

actually no let's not call it HHR, it's kind of an ugly car.

Kelretu 14-Feb-18 07:45 AM

Oh yeah, that's pretty ugly.

HaHiRo?

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 07:45 AM

puuhh

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:45 AM

We'll keep IIIac Bay until all HHRs have been crushed and forgotten.

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 07:46 AM

this is his invite link

the most used one so far

https://discordapp.com/invite/TAzte8m

does it work for you?

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:46 AM

Works.

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 07:46 AM

for me it does

cool

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:46 AM

Oh, is someone able to update my role on the community server? I'm still a department director there.

Kelretu 14-Feb-18 07:46 AM

Only Bard or Rob can I believe. (edited)

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 07:47 AM

i can

i think i could, let me try

Kelretu 14-Feb-18 07:47 AM

Well, I tried it yesterday and I couldn't.

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 07:48 AM

ok i cant ^^

sorry yes, the first 3 roles are blocked

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:48 AM

Yeah, I think it's only Admin role that can. It's not a huge issue, the only difference I can tell is being able to post to the Twitch channel.

Kelretu 14-Feb-18 07:48 AM

Well you are on the alert list anyway right?

Bellatrix 14-Feb-18 07:48 AM

Just ping @Robcbwilson

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:48 AM

it's about the personal touch of posting it, y'know? (edited)

Kelretu 14-Feb-18 07:49 AM

Mmh I always feel uncomfortable posting my twitch links.

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:49 AM

Gotta get that self-advertisement in these.

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 07:49 AM

well we should call everyone accordingly and get formal and all.

its better if ubermann has the public appearance of a team lead, when he is one

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:50 AM

Oh yes, of course, I already posted my list of approved titles and honorifics to the IB server.

oh you meant just Discord roles, of course, right.

Kelretu 14-Feb-18 07:51 AM

By the way, who is this MrValdi? He has the department director role but no province.

His Royal Majesty and Lord of Hammerfell, Sir Ub3r?

2

Bellatrix 14-Feb-18 07:54 AM

Don’t go giving him ideas

ub3rman123 14-Feb-18 07:56 AM

What do you mean, giving ideas? I've had these very original thoughts all on my own vapid initiative. (edited)

Bellatrix 14-Feb-18 07:59 AM

Glad to see you’re focusing on the important stuff my liege

2

Hayden 14-Feb-18 09:05 AM

While you're all updating roles and permissions, I did go to try and remove my team lead role a little while back but didn't have the permissions to demote myself. I don't mind sticking around the chat and all but if anyone did have a problem with it feel free to drop the role.

Not entirely sure what happens to my council position or anything like that though

Bellatrix 14-Feb-18 09:48 AM

Oh does that mean you’ve stepped down as the forge lead?

That’s such a shame

Hannes821 14-Feb-18 10:20 AM

hmm do we have any new forge lead?

(could you please consider staying

)

Kelretu 14-Feb-18 10:21 AM

I'm currently doing it as per Hayden's request.

Hayden 14-Feb-18 10:23 AM

I took a month hiatus cause shit hit the fan in real life, but I've since returned

Although with the last 3 months of uni now in full swing my availability is still super limited

Bellatrix 14-Feb-18 11:06 AM

Oh that’s fine. So you’re still the lead just busy for a bit? I think we’ve all experienced that off and on.

Yay! It wouldn’t be the same without you.

Meglos (Morrowind) 14-Feb-18 01:35 PM

@Larrian (Morrowind) would be the one to talk to about higher roles now

Hayden 14-Feb-18 10:41 PM

I passed on server ownership and kind of unofficially passed on AF leadership in our IB chat to Kelretu as I thought he'd be the best suited for it as it ties in well with the AU. It's up to Kelretu and everyone else if you want me back up there leading it again.

ub3rman123 15-Feb-18 03:19 AM

Someone mind unmuting Fanvsant on the community server? I still don't have the lead role to do it myself.

Hannes821 15-Feb-18 03:57 AM

Higher roles?

Robcbwilson 15-Feb-18 03:58 AM

You are now a Team Lead @ub3rman123

Hannes821 15-Feb-18 03:58 AM

hey, maybe i could, if he didnt do anything that violates our terms

ub3rman123 15-Feb-18 03:58 AM

Thanks!

Robcbwilson 15-Feb-18 03:59 AM

Morning @Hannes821

Hannes821 15-Feb-18 03:59 AM

i missunderstood

haha

ub3rman123 15-Feb-18 03:59 AM

*Gasp* I KNEW there was a secret cultist channel.

Hannes821 15-Feb-18 03:59 AM

never using any of these....

the cultists influence must be unrelevant haha

yeah rob, long time no see

how are you?

ub3rman123 15-Feb-18 04:00 AM

I'm sure the blood sacrifice nights are lit.

Hannes821 15-Feb-18 04:00 AM

wow sounds spookey

Robcbwilson 15-Feb-18 04:00 AM

I am plodding along @Hannes821

Hannes821 15-Feb-18 04:03 AM

hmm i dont understand that "higher roles" remark completely, but then if people really have as much time capacity and spirit, i think anyone can formally apply to become a candidate of some cross province team? Another thought of me, if kelretu is head of both, does it still make sense to keep both discords as seperate servers or is it easier to merge them and have the "internal" channels and the students "external channels" ? Joe was actually always trying to integrate all work on the global dev server (the black one); and although thats kind of messy (because of many channels and people unless you lock them with certain roles) it also allows the biggest exchange rate of ideas and hints....

just saying, i dont need a change or anything but lets think about it for a moment

Hannes821 15-Feb-18 04:12 AM

i dont like when people get informally set as a candidate, its intransparent and supports herding effects that take away from objective criterias and damage the community as a whole

but i am happy if larry says he wants to do that, and if Kelretu is busy or what

Hayden 15-Feb-18 05:48 PM

It was more so just a temporary solution and intended to sort it out at a later date, which is why I'm bringing it up now, I'm happy to resume my old position, but it's up to everyone else

1

Bellatrix 15-Feb-18 08:17 PM

I personally don’t think it’s a big deal. I mean I get the feeling most of us didn’t even know that you’d temporarily stepped down...?

Hayden 16-Feb-18 03:13 AM

Yeah, it's just a temporary thing

Bellatrix 16-Feb-18 03:30 AM

Dunno. Maybe to head off potential drama make a post saying you’d temporarily assigned the roles to Kelretu but now you’re back and resuming the role and see if anyone objects?

As in a post in the official council thread so it’s there an permanent.

Larrian (Morrowind) 16-Feb-18 06:05 AM

May I ask why Fanvsant is present on IB? He doesn't really seem to do anything worthwhile

Sage of Ice 16-Feb-18 01:19 PM

He was supposed to be part of the marketing team

Rubaedo 16-Feb-18 01:29 PM

I have seen him respond to questions on reddit before, but not all of them were accurate. For example when someone asked about Black Marsh he said that we're temporarily shuttered, which isn't the case.

Kelretu 16-Feb-18 01:34 PM

Inaccuracy when speaking about other provinces is a common problem though. Best to direct to the respective team or check with them before posting something. (edited)

1

Rubaedo 16-Feb-18 01:36 PM

I'm aware, but it really should be the PR teams job to know how to respond to questions, even if that response is "I don't think I personally know the answer to that question, but here are the people you should talk to to find out."

Sage of Ice 16-Feb-18 01:36 PM

Yeah he's said inaccurate things about IB itself too

I don't even remember who added him to the team TBH

Kelretu 16-Feb-18 01:37 PM

I think Joe did.

Generally speaking he is a good addition to IB because most of us rarely answer questions or have much contact with the community due to time or other reasons. If his inaccuracy is an issue that is probably something that can be talked about.

*don't have much

ub3rman123 16-Feb-18 05:45 PM

Also he replies to my Star Trek memes, so he's worth it for that alone.

Hannes821 17-Feb-18 10:33 AM

hellow everyone. well sometimes you need people for keeping dynamic conversations on, but thats only a valid point if it was about the work to be done ;-) anyways, none of my buisness. i hope you are all having a good weekend

Kelretu 24-Feb-18 05:33 PM

I'd like to make a channel for the Atronach Forge bounty board here as well to raise awareness, any input or objections?

Rubaedo 24-Feb-18 05:34 PM

Sounds like a good plan to me

Hannes821 25-Feb-18 02:32 AM

Joe once considered bringing cross province communication completely here for that reason, not sure if it's an option

Hannes821 08-Mar-18 05:10 PM

hello my dear colleagues.

i was talking with Xae. he is suggesting to change the domain to one of his servers for security reasons and being the responsible administrator, with some extend of executive authority.

after that happened, we could add new people to the PR team to support him, he said.

i think, this does require a council decision(?) Xae is positive about it, that we can set it all up properly and so on.

since joe isnt involved anymore in BS, i guess thats the only reasonable way? if i am mistaken, please let me know.

Robcbwilson 08-Mar-18 05:19 PM

I don't know if it needs a Council vote, but it depends on what the Charter says about it

For all intents and purposes, Joe is no longer part of BS

Hannes821 08-Mar-18 05:35 PM

i just mean, xae was pointing out that whoever holds the domain on his server, could take it down. Now that much happens on discord and Slack, this is not an existencial question anymore, Its nonetheless vital to have a trustworthy and responsible and also critizisable webmaster. i actually still trust Joe, and dont think he would ever do any harm to BS, but since a few people have suspicions + he isnt here to really talk, thats 2 good reasons; the third is we could set up a real team for that under the PR flag and do much more. if you think, Xae should be here, he would also be okay with attending this chat here, so thats another plus in my opinion, and he mentioned paying the server to run the domain. But finally, i have not enough knowledge about him, and it affects all of our teams heavily whom we trust our official web adress with; so yes rob, i am very sure the directors at least want to say a short "yes" or "No". I do admit though that there is no real plan B, and we also really want to add new people to work with Xae and us as PR team on Webcontent. very much. would help us as community. (edited)

Robcbwilson 08-Mar-18 05:39 PM

I still trust Joe too, but the problem has always been that he did it all on his own. Whether it be Xae, Joe or another person, I agree we need a team of people

Joe was not that happy about the idea of working with people (sadly)

Hannes821 08-Mar-18 05:42 PM

well xae mentioned 3 times that in this responsibility he also would need some "executive authority". still, if he is around here, i guess we could talk better and more with him about how to do things. or at least in PR

shall we invite him in the PR discord? @Robcbwilson

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Mar-18 05:43 PM

Having Xae as some sort of executive authority worries me somewhat, because he's not exactly the most approachable of people

Hannes821 08-Mar-18 05:44 PM

well, this could be sorted out i guess, i mean we have nobody else, plus he seems reasonable and very supportive to BS. i dont know, thats why i ask you

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Mar-18 05:46 PM

Yeah, I wouldn't have anything against it if he were to join here, that way we'd be able to contact him more easily

Robcbwilson 08-Mar-18 05:47 PM

I think @Hannes821 in the interest of transparency it would be better as @Meglos (Morrowind) suggests for him to be invited here so all Leads can see what is being said

If we all agree on a way forward then that will be best for everyone (edited)

Hannes821 08-Mar-18 05:50 PM

cool

i think he would be happy too

so, i would invite him now

Robcbwilson 08-Mar-18 05:51 PM

Thanks!

Hannes821 08-Mar-18 05:52 PM

he is already here, but needs the directors role to join this chatroom i think

i cant give him i think

who is admin on this server (?)

ah joe i guess

sorry, someone would have to assign him as "team lead"

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Mar-18 05:54 PM

He can go in Department directors, that should be fine

Hannes821 08-Mar-18 05:54 PM

okay

i do

Bellatrix 08-Mar-18 05:56 PM

Yeah project lead chat is for council members only.

Hannes821 08-Mar-18 05:56 PM

-> #department_directors

Bellatrix 08-Mar-18 05:56 PM

That kind of makes sense but not really sure he needs anything beyond being a member of the or discord really.

Hannes821 08-Mar-18 05:57 PM

well its just an attempt, to get some formal permission if he takes care of the webservice, and if we discuss such things in a general channel....hmmm

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Mar-18 05:58 PM

Isn't he the music department director on Cyrodiil anyways?

Hannes821 08-Mar-18 05:58 PM

oh okay. that would be 2 birds with one stone i guess?

Bellatrix 08-Mar-18 05:58 PM

No

We don’t have a music department.

Hannes821 09-Mar-18 02:53 PM

hey, so long story short. he is present, and he is good willing, and we have nobody else and so far, there is no evidence we couldnt trust him. is there anyone who would be against changing the domains ? my point of view is, its better organized and formal, even if there are issues, relations are clear.

Kelretu 12-Mar-18 09:57 AM

I'll be taking a break from BS for a while. If anything comes up for which I need to be involved, send me a PM on the forums.

3

Robcbwilson 12-Mar-18 09:58 AM

Hope everything is OK @Kelretu

Larrian (Morrowind) 12-Mar-18 10:02 AM

Yeah ❤ Stay safe, Kelretu

Hannes821 12-Mar-18 10:31 AM

see you Kel

i hope AU is fine.

Kelretu 18-Mar-18 05:31 AM

@Larrian (Morrowind) Could you give mindmonkey the "Team Leads" role? He's the new co-lead of the AU.

Larrian (Morrowind) 18-Mar-18 05:31 AM

Sure!

Done

Kelretu 18-Mar-18 05:32 AM

Thanks

Hannes821 26-Mar-18 04:18 PM

no news are good news

HannesDettmann 26-Mar-18 05:20 PM

can you remind me of the exact release date of the newsletter?

Robcbwilson 27-Mar-18 01:16 AM

31st of March

Hannes821 27-Mar-18 04:54 PM

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BztSdvM3C4kVcjlTQTRKOU9wOHc

link to my PR folder with logos, so it doesnt get lost

Hannes821 29-Mar-18 04:10 AM

I saw a number of people messaging that their applications get not answered, make sure you log in into your beyond Skyrim eMail account from time to time to check them. I also ignore poor writers to be honest or tell them no sorry. But maybe there are some good people left in the rain?

1

Robcbwilson 29-Mar-18 06:04 AM

I have gone through all the Elsweyr applications. I don’t reply back to people who do not meet requirements. What does everyone else do?

HannesDettmann 29-Mar-18 06:23 AM

would it be too much work to paste a one-liner in case of rejection? it seems like the recruitment channel is full with people waiting for replies that keep asking about their application. and we keep giving them the answer that if they receive no reply they are most likely not in. for sure we don't have to reply to these bogus applications of some guy who didn't put more effort than punching random letters on the keyboard...but for people who took some effort and were not good enough yet? (edited)

they could also just be made aware of the AU

Robcbwilson 29-Mar-18 11:11 AM

Yes, we could do that although I am not sure about writers as to whether we can really teach that

I agree a response is a good idea though

Hannes821 29-Mar-18 03:05 PM

as rob said, 1st is fine, so lets release by then

(newsletter03)

HannesDettmann 29-Mar-18 06:19 PM

I think there would be a way of we wanted to but the question is is it really worth it?

Kelretu 13-Apr-18 12:43 PM

Mmh now I've lost complete track of all the stuff in #devs_only

Larrian (Morrowind) 13-Apr-18 12:43 PM

It's ok

Meglos (Morrowind) 13-Apr-18 12:47 PM

HannesDettmann 13-Apr-18 12:54 PM

Bellatrix 13-Apr-18 01:35 PM

Is it worth locking the whole server for a few hours?

Larrian (Morrowind) 13-Apr-18 01:35 PM

Probabl

*bly

Bellatrix 13-Apr-18 01:36 PM

Anyone know how to do that?

Larrian (Morrowind) 13-Apr-18 01:36 PM

Erm I can do it but idk if we want to

Kelretu 13-Apr-18 01:36 PM

No need for it in my opinion.

Meglos (Morrowind) 13-Apr-18 01:36 PM

No need, I posted a warning in the general chat

Kelretu 13-Apr-18 01:36 PM

Send an @ everyone and if people don't get it mute them.

Bellatrix 13-Apr-18 01:36 PM

And dev server probably not the best place but someone approaching Elswhyr to explain is probably a good idea.

Larrian (Morrowind) 13-Apr-18 01:37 PM

I'll get Furrymoan to PM Rob

Bellatrix 13-Apr-18 01:37 PM

I know it was all about context but they only saw it out of context and it does look pretty bad.

Awesome.

Larrian (Morrowind) 13-Apr-18 01:37 PM

Yeah I get it

Sorry this spiralled out of control

I did not intend for this to happen

Nor did anyone else involved

Sage of Ice 13-Apr-18 01:41 PM

Wait, so did Markus leave every server?

Kelretu 13-Apr-18 01:41 PM

Not the Cyrodiil one if I'm not mistaken.

Bellatrix 13-Apr-18 01:43 PM

No he’s still on Cyrodiil.

Sage of Ice 13-Apr-18 01:44 PM

OK, I was afraid he had

Apparently I missed all the drama this time, but I would agree that it's probably best if we let things cool down for a day or so

Larrian (Morrowind) 13-Apr-18 01:45 PM

Definitely

HannesDettmann 13-Apr-18 02:01 PM

can somebody sum up what happened?

i couldn't keep up with the conversation

Larrian (Morrowind) 13-Apr-18 02:02 PM

Me, AlassinSane, and Xae put forward some proposals to reform the council

This spiralled out of control and ended up with everyone complaining about many things

Just a lot of past tensions boiling to the surface

HannesDettmann 13-Apr-18 02:02 PM

that I saw

ah okay...but nothing super serious?

Larrian (Morrowind) 13-Apr-18 02:03 PM

Ehhh

Markus left the dev server but he's remaining on Cyr

Furrymoan inadvertently called Bard a 'cunt' but it was kind of a grey area. She shouldn't have done it though I won't deny. So Rob left this server over that

It's quieted down though

HannesDettmann 13-Apr-18 02:24 PM

thanks larrian...i jumped back to the part of the discussion where i left off but it is difficult for me to understand WHERE exactly it took a turn to this drama

seems like there was a lot of bottled up stuff for you guys

(not judging...just observing)

hope it will calm down in the short run and a solution will be found in the long run

Hannes821 13-Apr-18 02:58 PM

this is ridiculous

it ignores the work load, responsibilities and more. Its a carmourflage. slow progress is not an issue of the council being passive, its each teams responsibility

you can see that.

changing rules, or the decision organs. think about what it means, what the consequences are.

it is said that it doesnt effect the team management. Is that really the case? as soon as you have a new "core" replacing the council, you change the rules (so that they actually become binding for teams) and then they can outrule team management.

on top of the fact that a new core council would be even slower to take action and responsibility

i made a detailed suggestion for updating the BS constitution, it could be worked on, carefully and discussed. keeping a balance as now.

i dont even understand what the big complains about the council are. Did we do anything wrong recently?

the real purpose is a different one. i am not sure which.

but the stated purpose is not really achieved by the suggested approach, i think thats fairly easy to see.,

also, if it was about base democratic management, i always include everyone with a strong connection to a topic in my team to decisions.

and try to boost the participation for cross province teams ("bs democracy and participation")

i dont understand where this movement is comming from and what its real purpose is

by the way, i founded atmora, and lead it most of the time outside BS, and still do a big part of the work. I also ensure that i reach decisions always with my team, never against my team mates. i dont see why i should have people from another team take decisions for us.

Hannes821 13-Apr-18 04:20 PM

People in the core group who are interested have to show up. If they don’t, they have no hand in the decision. There is no veto. that means, to be precise, everyone who randomly is around can take effective decisions about how to operate the projects.... and its not even necessary that a minimum of people from a certain team is present. Imagine "tomorrow team A is not part of us anymore" and so on. it would all be possible, eventhough unrealistic. WHO writes such a poor, short draft? People told me my 10 pages were a poor draft, and i wrote it like a law as law graduate. but this is vague as ...a bubble. so, we place all our work and believes and responsibilities in such a unmanagable, unpredictable, random manner? (edited)

how do you even make them show up. lol

what about all the important authors who cannot be present? they need to be represented? be whom? ofc by their team dep leads or team directors, and not random people who know nothing about the actual topic,

confusion of responsibility, and unrealistic.

Decisions are made by consensus or majority vote, during meetings with a set time limit. This would have an undergoing voting period of several hours after the meeting to make sure that all participants could submit. (Again, if this doesn’t work, Beyond Skyrim is doomed regardless.) this is another ridiculous passage, dont even get me started on this

If this is implemented, it quite quickly becomes clear who is interested in actually making decisions and who just wants to see what’s going on and feel that their voice isn’t being arbitrarily excluded. (edited)

i am fighting for good decisions all the time, so that point doesnt apply to me either

all of that is pointless in my eyes

his proposal advocates for a transparent, member-oriented council to make large scale decisions, instead of just project directors. 1) we are always for being transparent and member oriented. the question is how you improve that! 2) is it a bad thing that we can talk about things confidential, in general? 3) make real suggestions how we can get people more interactive and participating, because thats the real problem; and its on the base level. 4) its a superficial belief that all problems are solved if the management was more diffuse and open. there is not one decision comming to my mind that we did not resolve, and its still open. Also, as mentioned earlier, a bigger council (thats basically what it is) would slow down even more; and make that psychological herding in team factions even worse!

i am really open to suggestions that improve the methods of how we work, but just changing the constitution doesnt guarantee any improvment on working methods. a lot of assumptions in this short proposal that i dont understand or think they are wrong.

Hannes821 13-Apr-18 04:40 PM

may i add, i got the impression that many people share my thoughts or similar impressions.

Bellatrix 14-Apr-18 02:01 AM

One thing I’d like to propose that’s indirectly related to this is to start moderating swearing and trash talking about other teams. If people have that much of a problem with bard then they should submit a complaint to the council and have it dealt with properly rather than trash thank about leads in a server where there are team members of the same province present. We had the same issue repeatedly with trash talking about Thraas too.

Rubaedo 14-Apr-18 09:34 AM

I don't think that moderating swearing is especially feasible, or that it would help the situation overmuch.

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 09:40 AM

Yeah. We're not a catholic school

Bellatrix 14-Apr-18 10:34 AM

I think it would have been better if people hadn’t yesterday. Plus you might be ok with it but other people aren’t.

ub3rman123 14-Apr-18 10:43 AM

I don't believe an automoderator should be required to keep our membership civil with each other.

Bellatrix 14-Apr-18 10:48 AM

I think we need to work on mutual respect between provinces for a bit. No we shouldn’t need an automoderator but I don’t think we’re far off needing one. How Thraas left BS generally doesn’t get portrayed as BS coming out of it looking good in general skyrim forums like r/skyrimods on the odd occasion it comes up. We don’t need to get a reputation for bad behaviour.

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:04 PM

its not about being religious but about an honourful, proffesional way how to interact and cooperate. But in essence, its the same like on a catholic school, larry

its true. we should always try to directly adress things, and in polite way

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:04 PM

I vehemently disagree with banning swearing

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:04 PM

focused on facts

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:04 PM

I know many others do too

yes I agree

Swearing should not come into arguments

But we are adults, we should not need to regulate our language with rules. If we're not mature enough for that then why on earth are we doing this (edited)

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:05 PM

another thing. The whole issue arrises because there is no certain codified or practiced way to bring anything for the council we need to think about "user friendlyness" for our members trying to interact with the council

larry has a point, we can work on improvements, but step by step and together, not such a public rush

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:06 PM

Yes we need reform, but I think the way I handled it the other day was hasty. I won't deny that

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:06 PM

so, what i would suggest is, really making a template draft for suggestions to the council, and making that list of handed in things public

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:06 PM

But it was with good intentions

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:06 PM

that however, doesnt mean we exchange structures.

i know that, but it was rushed, and not considered through (refering to the rules suggested) and only produced tensions

we should first agree on what is good and what can be improved before handing in finished suggestions.

so, lets note that we do not have any open issues first, no decisions delayed.

what could be improved in my opinion, is getting the base and the dep leads active, they actually need to hand in topics.

and ofc communication. why did people believe we are not operative in the first place

its a widely spread belief since the bard-joe case, and we should be clear about having an opinion and simply considering careful

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:09 PM

Look at the amount of people that brought this up, Hannes

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:09 PM

that isnt a point though

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:09 PM

We're not a fringe group of crazies that think everything is broken

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:09 PM

look at how many people voted for trump, does it make him a better person?

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:09 PM

There are so many issues. All the issues all of us raised were valid.

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:09 PM

this is about facts

okay, then bring them in.,

it was the same with thras, we hadnt even the chance because thras left before even contacting the council

they just used informal channels and pms

this is bad practice but says nothing about how we work

its best to ignore personal things and go to formal procedures.

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:12 PM

>The Council is slow, and the veto has and will continue to be abused >Markus has brought up issues with Bard that need to be addressed, that link into the other issues >We sorely need to give our entire project a facelift, and bring it into the technologies we're using, like Discord >The Council is non-transparent, non Council members cannot see the Council Chambers, allowing those within to flaunt rules and general etiquette

These are just some of the issues

Rubaedo 14-Apr-18 02:12 PM

Hannes, could I make a request of you actually?

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:12 PM

okay please give n example when we had been slow and where it was a damage

markus n bard, what issues.

facelift what for and why

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:13 PM

Markus brought up a perfect case about Rich years ago about merging

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:13 PM

transprarency is no ultimate thing for itself, there is a balance

decision making cannot happen with 200 people, and i think you understand that

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:13 PM

It's 5 am and all of this stuff is devs only

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:13 PM

ah okay

its 9 pm here

well sure take all your time

we should actually not discuss in chat but in gdocs

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:13 PM

And Hannes you massively miss the point of this I think :P This isn't about making BS a direct anarchistic democracy

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:14 PM

or something

so we can really express details uniterrupted

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:14 PM

It's just about making it fair for everyone

Because atm its current power systems can be abused

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:14 PM

yes, completely with you

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:14 PM

And have been

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:14 PM

well power systems can always be abused

confusion of responsibility too

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:14 PM

This one is particularly susceptible to it

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:14 PM

i would argue that,

but lets do that step by step

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:14 PM

Just look through the chatlog at what Markus has said, especially

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:14 PM

and solve the open questions first

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:14 PM

Or maybe PM Markus and ask him, he knows a lot more about it than I

Rubaedo 14-Apr-18 02:15 PM

I can't lie, I've been contacted multiple times in my time as a project director by team members frustrated that they don't know what's going on in the upper eschelons of the project at all.

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Apr-18 02:15 PM

Yep

Anyway I'm stepping away from this now

Good luck :P

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:15 PM

well, there are team specific questions and BS specific questions, that also needs to be kept separate carefully

Rubaedo 14-Apr-18 02:15 PM

This has been an ongoing issue for years. This isn't Larrian making drama for drama's sake.

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:15 PM

this is exactly a part of the issue

i see the goo intension

but a point has to be in a written form so it can be discussed carefully

not just an emotional chat and thats it

nobody can resolve that appropriately

i didnt say anybody does drama

we need to work on how we do our janitor work

Rubaedo 14-Apr-18 02:17 PM

Which is why after things got heated yesterday Larrian shut down the chat, took down the proposal and said he was going to go over a few more times. Look, I understand that this is an intense and heated situation for everyone involved, but I can't say it doesn't look like people are looking for someone to blame.

Hannes821 14-Apr-18 02:18 PM

okay, so i will make a template. then, write in what you think is wrong, and anybody can add their parragrahp / comment below

then we will sort this out

what i see is, emotionally frustrated people with good intensions, that want the good, but then rushing in a way others cannot follow them

well, the way it was brought out, it was offensive.

certain people like xae and markus expressed themselfs how they do not accept the council

still, things should be done step by step

look, this only produces tensions

we need, and can get somewhere

along, together, step by step

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hh-oljQda4qjTUf35dD9rSa6jov3IMv3_1W8AIdmGC8/edit?usp=sharing

Charta Overhaul Suggestion

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-LMz9litxZ9IZ2sPLh5OGM2fdgAixCQCKC-KMAL-zNw/edit?usp=sharing

Markus-Bard-Case2017

first, what i would do, if the suggestion is serious, is copy paste the old charta

i wrote a pretty detailed new draft.

then, consider what exactly is bad about it

and then step by step go for a new one.

simply dumping all, you cant get people on your side

because they all have things to loose

use your own doc if you want

thats not the matter ^^

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FqGRM9tIwl4MoNIpD3RglfYFcooisQCyC86Pk5q_CQk/edit

Constitutional update draft

Structure: 1. The Member 2. The Team Lead 3. The Council 4. Other Positions 5. General Rules Section 1: The Member § 1 Members Duties A violation of the following points will be automatically avenged by the measures given in §3 1.: Members ac...

here, my old draft.

my point was, the current solution you had larry

1) absent people need to be represented

2) peoples work shares are not equal, by work methods and experience you always have some sort of hierarchy

3) inactive people also need to be represented

4) the current system doesnt produce (afaik) problems. so taking it and suggesting smaller improvements makes sense in my opinion

5) you cannot just make decisions depending on the discord. they have to be on that website, and decisions are made public

(this is also why i dont follow this intransparency discussion)

i would actually see that dep leads could have some influence on decisions. If its about internal team decisions i always ask dep leads and regulars who are involved

however, you cant outrule team managemets or change them.

i think the biggest risk people see is that "outsiderss" tell them how to run their team

also, the fewer people are to decide, the faster you get a decision

the more people you add, the more it becomes herding

its also a question which decisions really need the council

as lasur arkinshade (edited, mixed up names, sorry) said earlier, most things are decided on team level (edited)

so its actually not that big deal anyways what we have to decide. If you look at what we recently had to decide.... well nothing in the last year since bard-joe.

and thras

and those things also, cleared up before we even had been asked

(not always in a way i welcome...)

up to this point, i fail to understand the win of your draft.

we could change transparency ruling where it makes sense

to get more dep leads involed, sure. but i believe that already everything is shared.

the problem was simply that we didnt have to decide anything, so ofc we didnt publish anything.

but that doesnt say the council is bad (?)

also, each team has a different philosophy and is based on personal relations that built up over years

replacing that by a pan-bs network of orders or management that partly repalces the team management wouldnt work

these people are all volunteers, they work for personal reasons with others they like

Bellatrix 14-Apr-18 02:48 PM

I don’t think it’s about looking for blame. Stuff happened that shouldn’t have yesterday but that’s life and we learn from it. I do think that everyone in this chat has to be more professional that the average BS member and hopefully we can be going forward.

1

Bellatrix 15-Apr-18 04:13 AM

Also, I missed the part where people are contacting you cos you don’t know what’s going on. We’re here to represent our teams so maybe the issue is communication down from this group back to the teams? No one on Roscrea has ever complained to me about this.

Sort the second you should be a they.

Sorry the second you should be a they. Maybe I need some more tea before I type

That’s not to say other teams are doing it wrong but on the odd occasion there is a council vote I always discuss with the other leads and often the whole team what Roscrea wants to do.

1

And that seems to work well. Cos then it feels like the team has ownership in what I do on the council, which they do.

Hannes821 15-Apr-18 04:50 AM

same here.

Hannes821 17-Apr-18 03:36 AM

i would appreciate if we can do this all in dialogue, Larry. i would have given you all my feedback to help you in your document instead of here; but i cannot even comment there... "eat it or die" is not a way to improve it. "yes or no" neither. we can totally work on it. But this needs some swarm intelligence, because its a complex matter.

2

Bellatrix 25-Apr-18 12:59 PM

With the stuff going on with the website, I'm trying to secure BS access to as much as we have

I've just made a new account for the linode login called and the password is.

I'll pin this to chat so the council should always have access to linode - I'll do the same with everything else I get

1

Pinned a message.

Bellatrix 28-Apr-18 03:54 AM

I need your input on this and there hasnt' really been any lead representation in the website stuff

Joe is going to switch the domain to me if that's what BS decides it wants.

The trouble is that means we loose gsuite because Joe set BS up as a non-profit in his name in Australia in order to get the gsuite stuff. That rests with him running the nonprofit and owning the domain apaprently

Are we happy to do that and if so whichever teams have stuff on there need to move it off before we do this I guess

Robcbwilson 28-Apr-18 03:56 AM

Could we set up G-Suite in another location (if we want to of course)?

I am happy for the Website to reside with you for now

Bellatrix 28-Apr-18 03:56 AM

You'd have ot register as a non profit

I'm not touching that with a bargepole but I guess someone could.

Robcbwilson 28-Apr-18 03:57 AM

Yeah, depends on how much work it is

Kelretu 28-Apr-18 04:00 AM

I have no issue with loosing Gsuite.

Larrian (Morrowind) 28-Apr-18 04:30 AM

That's ok

I don't have an issue with it either

Bellatrix 28-Apr-18 04:31 AM

Do you have anything on there?

I need to get to my PC and find out which provinces need to move stuff. I think it’s just IB but not 100% sure.

Robcbwilson 28-Apr-18 04:31 AM

There is a small amount of PR stuff

Bellatrix 28-Apr-18 04:31 AM

No one knows if we’ll loose the emails - I think we will but someone needs to check that.

OK @Robcbwilson let me know when you’ve moved it.

Meglos (Morrowind) 28-Apr-18 05:01 AM

We should really check about whether or not we'll lose the emails because of this. We're relying on them pretty heavily these days for recruitment, and we don't currently have much of a backup in case they fall through

Bellatrix 28-Apr-18 05:12 AM

As I said on web chat I’m not pushing the button until it’s all sorted.

I’m it checking on emails though so someone else who knows more about this stuff will have to do it.

Don’t know who hat is but it needs to be a named person otherwise no one will do it.

Hannes821 28-Apr-18 06:13 AM

maybe i am a cretin, but i never used Gsuite (and to be honest, we even hardly use the website as atmora team) so ... do as you please. i am only partly convinced that xae will really "do things better", he evaded and ignored questions about what he wants to do after being in charge. i think he will be the same passive like joe was before, and in the best case, the same reliable. However, i do understand that you want an active member to be in charge. But spreading suspicions against joe wasnt really necessary to agree on this point. Xae should join the PR team, and first of all, invest some time in BS, not only act as DC authority. He didnt do that yet.

and as xae pointed out, Claire, Rob and me are all admins on the wordpress page

with full permissions, so there isnt going to be any damage.

actually, if you say you want an active member, you can hardly call Xae an active member of BS, as well.

i voiced this towards rob before, i would rather go and try to recruit 2 new people exclusively for BS, and they check each other

you never know, i mean, i am new here, but you never know what stories & intensions people have in the long history of drama in BS. Its not really a clean solution for my stomach feel.

Robcbwilson 28-Apr-18 06:17 AM

We will have a team working on the re-design of the website. Xae may well be the person who implements it, but not in a vacuum

Bellatrix 28-Apr-18 06:18 AM

I'd really like to do something similar to the Cyrodiil witers call and maybe advertise for a few dedicated web designers and PR people

at the moment it's mostly BS people moonlighting but that's a different skillset to modding so if we can have people who don't know how to mod but do do web design, PR etc as their profession do a little more of that side it should free people who can mod back up for more modding

Robcbwilson 28-Apr-18 06:20 AM

Yes, I agree. We do have some people (McFearless for example), but we could always use more

Bellatrix 28-Apr-18 06:20 AM

That doesn't mean everyone from BS stops being involved it's more just to help spread the workload

2

Hannes821 28-Apr-18 06:40 AM

yes, i had 3 recruits in atmora for webmastering, i think one is still around (and not really actively working on modding but a fan)

if it has value to see new faces

Bellatrix 28-Apr-18 06:41 AM

I guess that's Robs call but yeah sounds great if there are people who would be up for it

Robcbwilson 28-Apr-18 06:44 AM

I am always keen to have new people join, especially in PR. New people = new ideas

1

Hannes821 28-Apr-18 06:46 AM

i think yes we added him and others 2 months ago but didnt really start working on anything

Larrian (Morrowind) 28-Apr-18 06:46 AM

I don't know why you think Xae doesn't have our interests at heart @Hannes821

Xae is fine

I think we're better off using the skills of a professional web designer who has been part of our community for nearly a decade than some random new people. Not to say we shouldn't recruit new people, but we have Xae who is able to do stuff for us

Hannes821 28-Apr-18 07:12 AM

for some people you are okay with assuming good things, for others you are okay with assuming bad things. can we just note that it is the same vague as any new person and that he didnt respond when being asked for his plans?

and ofc we should delegate this if possible

we actually had a conversation about improving the design of the wordpress page but that was a slight overhau

*l

Bellatrix 29-Apr-18 11:30 AM

Just a heads up that I’ve locked the RandomG recruitment thread on D.C. Please unlock it if you think that was too much but it was turning into a semi public spat and seemed pointless to let it continue.

2

Robcbwilson 29-Apr-18 11:32 AM

Thanks @Bellatrix

Hannes821 29-Apr-18 03:08 PM

semi public? well i never used the page.

you talk about that Gmail thing right?

Bellatrix 29-Apr-18 03:09 PM

No. It’s this https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/13527-application-as-a-consultant-content-writer/

Application as a Consultant / Content Writer

Okay, given my past history in the project, I have learned that my creative writing when applied to instant messaging can be somewhat damaging, intimidati...

Hannes821 29-Apr-18 03:10 PM

loool

somebody like that doesnt bring anything forward. you need people who want to work

not people who want to argue all day

sorry i guess my very short response was inappropriate ^^

Bellatrix 29-Apr-18 03:11 PM

Yeah I know but we also done need BS engaging in a crap slinging match with them hence I locked it.

1

Hannes821 29-Apr-18 03:12 PM

*If we continue this discussion. We'll turn into lawyers, *

what do people think they are doing here lol

its a game modding hobby community

that pride, destructive but nothing else.

good that i never read forum, i will go back to CK immediately

Robcbwilson 01-May-18 12:56 PM

Wanted to run this past everyone, Thras are in the process of starting up a public Discord server. Does anyone have any objections to me posting in on the Dev server?

HannesDettmann 01-May-18 01:33 PM

I don't. I will check it out myself.

1

Robcbwilson 01-May-18 01:34 PM

I can provide you the link if you like

Kelretu 01-May-18 01:34 PM

Yep, me as well.

I think it's fine if you post it in the dev discord.

Robcbwilson 01-May-18 01:35 PM

https://discord.gg/T8EKy3

Here it is for you both

1

Kelretu 01-May-18 01:36 PM

Thanks

1

Hannes821 01-May-18 04:40 PM

yes thanks very much

Robcbwilson 01-May-18 04:43 PM

https://discord.gg/9N3agpC

New invite

Hannes821 01-May-18 05:33 PM

its the same server right?

so that was just because the old one may have expired (cant see that since i am in)

Robcbwilson 02-May-18 12:53 AM

Yes, same server. The original link I was given was only good for an hour. The new one is permanent

Bellatrix 18-May-18 11:33 AM

new account for the website login called and the password is. it's through namecheap.com https://www.namecheap.com/

Pinned a message.

Robcbwilson 18-May-18 11:35 AM

Awesome! Thanks for doing this @Bellatrix

Bellatrix 18-May-18 11:35 AM

I've started the transfer. Joe gave me the transfer code so Iv'e done that part. He will get an email that he needs to respond to then it's done.

1

Again, the account has my name and card details in it so whilst I'm OK(ish) to have you all have access to it, don't share it or the linode login details outside this chat.

Actually name address and card details.

Robcbwilson 18-May-18 02:32 PM

Just got a random message on FB that could be interesting "I put together a talk at SIGGRAPH each year called: Online Collaboration with Virtual Studio Production. Is any of the directors of any of the projects planning on attending SIGGRAPH in Vancouver this year? I would be interested to see if we can have you as one of the panelists to talk about your remote production"

Anyone in Vancouver and keen?

Meglos (Morrowind) 18-May-18 02:52 PM

I mean, I live in Vancouver but I've never heard of this thing before :P

Robcbwilson 18-May-18 02:58 PM

New one on me too

Bellatrix 18-May-18 03:12 PM

Maybe google it. If it’s anything like science then there will be a lot of smaller more focused conferences.

Robcbwilson 18-May-18 03:14 PM

https://s2018.siggraph.org/

Looks well established and fairly big

Hannes821 18-May-18 06:25 PM

have a nice weekend, everyone

Zeezee 23-May-18 08:21 PM

so, larrian had put this map together

a while ago I wanted to update it to reflect blackmarsh better as we had it

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/325484890009108480/432214220059443200/wump.png

it didn't turn out the best. Blackmarsh put the continent WAY out of proportion on one side

after snooping arround some I figured out why. We had blackmarsh scaled accurately to lore, Morrowind has morrowind scaled accurately to lore. By the shared world heightmap that BS originated with, was sqooshed slightly vertically. (Likely to make the heartland all fit in one world space)

As many of you know. Blackmarsh was just preparing to start landscaping, so this seemed like the LAST chance to make a major heightmap change. We took that chance

2

so allow me to introduce you to Blackmarsh 3.0. A version that is fairly accurate to lore, but not proportioned in a way that throws Tamriel off balance.

Rubaedo 23-May-18 08:53 PM

ZZ was an absolute doll through the whole process of dealing with this and helping us fix the issue

HannesDettmann 24-May-18 02:11 AM

@Zeezee nice work! I'm happy you managed to notice and fix it in time! Can't wait to see your first landscaping screenshot

Hannes821 24-May-18 03:08 AM

how aboout some atmora lol

BM looks really good at first glance!

maybe the swamp areas should be more green and less water, because swamp is land category? if i would imagine a worldspace like that, it would be black islands in the sea given the size of the waterways, no?

Bellatrix 24-May-18 03:41 AM

Oooh looks cool! Watersedge is one of my favourite bits of cyrodiil so a whole swampy country is going to be epic

1

Robcbwilson 08-Jun-18 02:11 PM

We had a request from someone to become an offical reddit question answerer

Here is his application

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/13600-application-pr/

Application - PR

I've been a long-time lurker on the Beyond Skyrim social media pages, on r/beyondskyrim, and here on your darkcreations page. I've seen a lot of peopl...

I would like to give him access to the Dev server so he can fact check and also a Beyond Skyrim flair

Any objections?

Rubaedo 08-Jun-18 02:24 PM

I have none

1

Hayden 08-Jun-18 06:54 PM

Go fo' it

1

Robcbwilson 09-Jun-18 02:08 AM

Will give it another day or so for people to see this and if there are no objections I will set him up as described

Rubaedo 09-Jun-18 02:09 AM

Would someone be able to give GoodKingJohn his new Team Lead role?

Meglos (Morrowind) 09-Jun-18 02:09 AM

Yes

Done

Rubaedo 09-Jun-18 02:11 AM

Thanks darling ❤

dodo721 09-Jun-18 05:41 AM

hiya!

2

Hannes821 09-Jun-18 07:29 AM

@dodo721 welcome to the council

Rubaedo 10-Jun-18 09:58 PM

So, ES6 has been announced

No real info other that it's own existence

But

Its there

So we should probably make clear that we're not planning on switching development to it. That we will remain Beyond Skyrim even after the release of ES6.

ub3rman123 10-Jun-18 10:00 PM

No real point announcing anything until it has a release date.

1shoedpunk 11-Jun-18 05:12 AM

It seems to be hammerfell, so it doesn't look like it's going to affect any project except maybe iliac bay

We assumed the next game would be in a province, so insulating the provinces means there's no reason the other teams shouldn't/couldn't continue

Also blades looks to be taking place in high rock after the great war

Undead thalmor show up. Could be cyrodiil too but it would be a new city

I think iliac bay should really start up implementing their quests if they want to release before tes6 does though

HannesDettmann 11-Jun-18 06:07 AM

Yep. I also wonder if the announcement will have any negative impact on our recruitment...

dodo721 11-Jun-18 06:08 AM

I hope not, it seems to be obvious that it won't be out for years at least

I'm going to keep an eye on that BM ESO DLC too, but I don't think it'll have anything important to us in it

1shoedpunk 11-Jun-18 06:12 AM

Why would it not? It's the first time in black Marsh since arena?

HannesDettmann 11-Jun-18 06:12 AM

Given the amount of info we have on BM the should be a lot on there that you could use

dodo721 11-Jun-18 06:13 AM

I meant "important" as in stuff that would conflict with what we already have

Hopefully there will be some stuff to use too

1shoedpunk 11-Jun-18 06:13 AM

Blades is probably going to have a good amount of stuff to reference

dodo721 11-Jun-18 06:13 AM

thats true

1shoedpunk 11-Jun-18 06:14 AM

It's recent enough to be relevant

dodo721 11-Jun-18 06:14 AM

when is blades set again?

1shoedpunk 11-Jun-18 06:14 AM

Right after the great war

In either high rock or cyrodiil

Hard to tell

It looks similar to the psp Oblivion game and that took place in high rock

HannesDettmann 11-Jun-18 06:17 AM

There was a psp Oblivion game?

1shoedpunk 11-Jun-18 06:18 AM

Never released

There were screens floating around and one of those rarity sites has a demo build that leaked

Sage of Ice 11-Jun-18 04:33 PM

If ES: Blades is in High Rock, hopefully the scope will be small enough that we can account for it and still keep going

As for TES6...

Hannes821 14-Jun-18 05:03 AM

i dont think TES6 will be still by the old provinces, but its possible. Anyways, new engine, no guarantee we even could port anything if we wanted to. I think, its obvious we have to finish with Skyrim (or at least try to) But there are many examples of MW and Oblivion teams still modding. also, did we update access to council chambers on dark creations already for @HannesDettmann @dodo721 @Zeezee ? and maybe we can slowly consider the polish of our charter again (with keeping all contents as it is, but getting the terms and definitions more precise) Deeza had been claiming this last year, but i think i can also do a new suggestion this summer, it should help deeza and everyone to see potential for improvement. I completely agree to deeza to do this in 2 different steps 1) polish the active charter with keeping its contents exactly the same 2) discuss new amendements where it could be beneficial (thats for winter or later, no activism here) https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/11441-framing-the-ruling/?page=2

dodo721 14-Jun-18 05:07 AM

I don't have access yet, no

Hannes821 14-Jun-18 05:14 AM

oh and the chinese spam attack is happening again

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/13629-%E5%88%B6%E4%BD%9C%E7%BE%8E%E5%9B%BD%E9%AB%98%E4%BB%BF%E6%AF%95%E4%B8%9A%E8%AF%81%E3%80%81%E4%BB%A3%E5%8A%9Eaau%E6%AF%95%E4%B8%9A%E8%AF%81%E6%96%87%E5%87%AD%E8%AE%A4%E8%AF%81q%E5%BE%AE790042814%E6%97%A7%E9%87%91%E5%B1%B1%E8%89%BA%E6%9C%AF%E5%A4%A7%E5%AD%A6%E6%AF%95%E4%B8%9A%E8%AF%81%E4%B9%A6aau%E6%88%90%E7%BB%A9%E5%8D%95%E6%96%87%E5%87%AD%E5%AD%A6%E5%8E%86%E8%AE%A4%E8%AF%81-academy-of-art-university/

制作美国高仿毕业证、代办AAU毕业证文凭认证Q微79...

（无显示点网页快照）留学生归国服务中心面向美国英国澳洲加拿大留学生提供以下服务: 一、办理毕业证成绩单（学校原版1：1高仿真制作）二、使馆认证（留学回国人员证明，大使馆存档可查，查到后付...

in our AU

soo who was admin on the DarkCreations again? Xae, Deeza and ? (they should be able to set you up as directors level staff or maybe some other director from your own team?)

oh i think we also have to add @ub3rman123

so we actually have even 4 new members there

gamesoi1 has to be banned instantly, keeps spamming this message dozens of times

https://www.darkcreations.org/profile/12698-makesoi01/

HannesDettmann 14-Jun-18 05:31 AM

I have access

Hannes821 14-Jun-18 07:25 AM

Zeezee 14-Jun-18 11:45 AM

I like never use DC, only Discord. I have 0 clue weather I have access yet. I'll be able to check when Im at my computer in a few hours

Hannes821 15-Jun-18 03:07 AM

we all dont use DC anymore, but its a formality... discord changed the whole process here

there might be bigger topic focused discussions there than here though, and this channel doesnt include all directors sadly

DC does

dodo721 25-Jun-18 03:13 AM

hey guys, so for the website remaster we recently stumbled across this plugin which our web designer found: https://wordpress.org/plugins/erp/ it has a load of features that go above and beyond what we needed for a recruitment system, you can read the list there. We don't have to implement all those features, we can just implement a few bits of it. but just wanted to know if any of you would be interested in using any of the other features, or think they should be used (edited)

Tareq Hasan

WP ERP – HR, CRM & Accounting Solution For WordPress

An Open Source Human Resource, CRM & Accounting Solution for WordPress

1

Hannes821 25-Jun-18 04:25 AM

@Team Leads hey, i know you dont care much about the shape of the current DC; but i attempt to clean this up a bit to avoid confusion. a few people here seem to not have the directors role anymore; ZeeZee said they dont care for being in there, else everyone is on the board now who should; and i came to wonder if a few people who arent directors anymore should remain inside? Also, we once said we wanted to be consistent with the "director" and "department lead" stuff. If you dont like that, just change it to what ever you like; but since it was once agreed, i changed my own title and that of those people i knew. ( for the sake of a corporate appearance towards outside) please let me know what you think and change what you dont like! Thank you!

1

here is the quick link for you to go there: https://www.darkcreations.org/projectcp/12-beyond-skyrim/members/all/

i think Kelretu and Deeza arent currently directors, is that correct?

(for me, they can stay in, just for clarities sake)

Bellatrix 25-Jun-18 05:23 AM

People who aren’t directors shouldn’t have the role cos it controls what forums you can and can’t see as well as being a job description.

2

@dodo721 recruitment stuff looks interesting. Only skimmed it but we do definitely need something slicker than the current temporary solution

1

dodo721 25-Jun-18 05:43 AM

Yes definitely the recruitment system in the plugin is great, but it also comes with member management, finance management, schedule management, basically a full business plugin. I'm asking if we want to use any of those systems too?

1

Robcbwilson 25-Jun-18 05:47 AM

member management certainly (for Elsweyr)

Hannes821 25-Jun-18 06:15 AM

we could finally have extended functionalities on the page.

HannesDettmann 25-Jun-18 07:51 AM

@Hannes821 Kelretu is currently merely a teacher at AU. AU lead and AU headmaster is practically synonymous, so having both is confusing. But Kel is taking time off at the moment due to exams and is not around atm. So personally I would prefer to keep it as it is for now to not act behind his back.

Hannes821 25-Jun-18 07:52 AM

"behind his back" hannes thats the wrong tongue in this context

yes i just was asking, i mean if its just a short term break (and i think so) then he will be back as headmaster i guess anyways

i mean we do (or i do) nothing behind anyones back. i dont even do anything, i just place this on the table so everyone notices it.

HannesDettmann 25-Jun-18 08:09 AM

Sure, I was indicating nothing about what you are doing or not doing, Hannes. Kelretu doesn't plan to take on the job as the headmaster (at least to my knowledge). What I meant was that Kelretu is not the lead anymore, so his role should be updated accordingly, but I don't want to suggest that in his absence and rather discuss it with him once he's here.

1

Hannes821 25-Jun-18 10:01 AM

sorry i got it wrong way and was distracted in my simulation programming

all good

yes that sounds accurate to me

dodo721 29-Jun-18 08:16 AM

Hi everyone. You may have seen the discussion in the #publicity channel. I am currently working on a proposal in the form of a document for an overhaul of PR. It may be a few days before it is ready. In the mean time I ask for anyone who has immediate thoughts to resisting this to wait for the proposal itself, were the ideas will be properly formulated so you know exactly what is being proposed and whether you still take issue. Thankyou

(edited)

1

Hannes821 30-Jun-18 02:25 AM

BeyondTamriel seems to be a 28-headed italian team working on continents outside Tamriel. they started akavir and atmora, and i will ask for what specifically, more. I offered them cooperation; and they gave positive first signs. maybe we can expand the community again like we did with "path to elsweyr". we will see.

definitely good news for us

dodo721 30-Jun-18 02:27 AM

Good to see what they're doing. We will need to see their teams and what they're capable of as a council before any cooperation is done though

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 30-Jun-18 02:52 AM

Yep

1

HannesDettmann 30-Jun-18 03:34 AM

Wow, I didn't expect that. Now I'm curious

Hannes821 30-Jun-18 03:52 AM

yes, the internet is totally empty, nothing about them

HannesDettmann 30-Jun-18 03:57 AM

Yeah, that's why

Bellatrix 30-Jun-18 04:00 AM

We don't even need to rush into anything. We can definitely offer them any technical help etc informally.

Assuming they need it - maybe they'll be the ones giving us technical help

Hannes821 30-Jun-18 03:30 PM

@ub3rman123 i have been told to watch your stream from my team, and yes, its good

1

Hannes821 30-Jun-18 06:35 PM

i am a bit disappointed for the sicilian BeyondTamriel group.

it doesnt sound like being up to our standards at all, and the person who seems to be something like the executive director cant even properly link his own forum page in italian where you can download his mod

not talking of a big language barrier.

but i will keep talking with him and see if we can cooperate

he said they have a Pyandonea and Yokuda project finished.

hmmmmmmmm

Hannes821 30-Jun-18 06:52 PM

the way this person behaves, very random and unproffesional. first he is like "yeah i upload you the file" then "can you build me a website" then "i go and sleep"

oh my god

no thanks

Rubaedo 30-Jun-18 07:04 PM

Yeah, I confess I wasnt exactly holding my breath.

HannesDettmann 30-Jun-18 07:06 PM

That's kind of what I expected after their initial message tbh... Can you send me the link if he ever manages to send it to you? (edited)

Hannes821 30-Jun-18 07:06 PM

yes, will do

good night

HannesDettmann 30-Jun-18 07:08 PM

Gute Nacht!

Hannes821 01-Jul-18 03:10 PM

the things talked about charta and pr and stranger are all a bit odd for me. but i am too tired to talk right now about all that ;-) will soon go n sleep.

Hannes821 02-Jul-18 05:16 AM

@Larrian (Morrowind) did you literally say yesterday "the charta isnt good because i wasnt around when it was made, so we have to redo it" ? Thats trump style.

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Jul-18 06:03 AM

No :P

I was saying that because it's so old, and because the people who made it are mostly gone, we need to revise it as Beyond Skyrim has changed

Just my opinion though

Hannes821 02-Jul-18 09:19 AM

okay, then, in a peaceful minute, prepare some points

this short reactions public debate is not helping

it just shows that we have different opinions on things that should be obvious and clear to everyone

you know i am for changes, if they make sense,

but not like "i dont like dis, its all shiz"

dodo721 03-Jul-18 04:09 AM

@here I have finalised my proposal best I can for a redo of the PR team, and tried to address what I can. Unfortunately I went on holiday half way thru and still am on holiday, so I won't be able to give answers to questions or answer concerns immediately all the time.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fWIdaIrDZyaxBkyT8SOs7alvzioZGIAhadIYk5aOgW8/edit?usp=drivesdk

Beyond Skyrim PR Analysis and Proposal

Beyond Skyrim PR Analysis and Proposal Beyond Skyrim PR Analysis and Proposal 1 0 Disclaimer 2 1 Introduction 2 1.1 Warning 2 2 The Problems 2 3 The Proposal 3 3.1 Leadership and Composition of the PR Team 3 3.1.1 Proposed Structure 3 3.2 PR Team within the Structure of Bey...

There may be some issues that I have meant to address but didn't do so clearly as I wrote half of it on the phone, so if those crop up I'll try and answer them here instead and edit them into the document if necessary

(also the link should be commentable so feel free to make comments on the doc) (edited)

1shoedpunk 03-Jul-18 08:17 AM

That proposal is very similar to the existing charter of the pr department with the exception that the pr team lead(s) do not have a seat on the council (edited)

Currently

dodo721 03-Jul-18 10:15 AM

The current team does not reflect that though. The main points of this is a. That the team be modular and b. That there be more space for work with provinces

I've also been told that the current team works on a "request only" basis, that it only does things provinces ask it to do. I think it should be the opposite, that this team can function autonomously and ask provinces for input or help when it needs it

dodo721 03-Jul-18 10:27 AM

The proposal isn't aiming to change the goals of the PR team or to change the team structure dramatically or anything. The aim is to focus on why it isn't currently working as well as it could be and to introduce changes to address those

The only real change to structure of the team is that we get separate people in to run it, so the strain isn't put on provinces and we have new ideas and a chance for more people to get involved, and that there be some form of ambassadors to serve for communication so that the PR team can communicate quickly and get what it needs without waiting ages

1shoedpunk 03-Jul-18 10:58 AM

It is supposed to have separate leads, but I think that a few people wanted to double up in roles. I would agree that it should have its own dedicated leadership

But having a large organized PR department isnt like the arcane university or atronach forge in that it contributes to the project

It's about raising awareness of the project, which is fine to a degree but there are diminishing returns

We're making mods. There is stuff like the languages that are ancillary to that but they're not the main point.

I'm wary that as the years go on people are starting to view the body of background writing and concepts art and stuff as the main product and not supporting materials for development of the mod (edited)

dodo721 03-Jul-18 12:09 PM

On one front I totally agree: we're making mods and we would remember that. On the other hand, this is a project for fun and for including people. I know that people are taking this seriously and using it to break into the industry too, I hope to myself, but if we are opening spaces for new people who are already wanting to do this stuff and exciting members. When the work to do the PR isn't detracting from provide development and isn't being done unwillingly, then I don't think the returns are as big a problem. It's more about involving people and showing off more stuff. For example while concept artists and models etc all get showing off previous to the mod, the writers don't so much, which is were lore videos can help. And not disregarding the presence and influence we have: ShoddyCast when we asked to work with him, a YouTube channel which most of us involved admired as someone we watched when we were young, was excited to meet us. We have loads of potential, and again, it would be great fun

Tl;Dr: this would be a great chance to involve more people and to have more fun without hurting progress

Meglos (Morrowind) 03-Jul-18 12:25 PM

I think everything in the proposal seems good to me. In regards to Rich's concerns, yes, we are making a mod, but I think most people who work on the project and follow it would agree that it's more than "just a mod". We're doing something bigger and far more ambitious than most other modders, and I think our PR should reflect that as well.

Rubaedo 03-Jul-18 12:30 PM

This is an argument I've heard several times before, and honestly I feel like it's a very, very outside concern to what is being discussed currently. At the moment, the proposal is about overhauling the PR department so it can act as a functional system for organizing our Public Relations and ensuring all promotional material that we put out is of a similar professionalist style and quality. While that may include cross provincial endeavors like the lore series, or the ta'agra guide, that's not the primary focus of the proposal. So long as Beyond Skyrim is seen as a monolithic entity, and it is, we need to be able to work together to ensure a positive public image. At the moment we struggle immensely to do that, and we all suffer for it. I think this would be a positive change.

Bellatrix 03-Jul-18 02:10 PM

I think I assumed that something like the proposal would have happened when the PR dept was set up. I did suggest advertising externally for a lead at the time but that didn’t happen.

1shoedpunk 03-Jul-18 02:10 PM

In what ways have we been suffering?

I haven't seen anything like that since before Bruma where people kept calling us vaporware

Bellatrix 03-Jul-18 02:11 PM

Actually yeah. I don’t think Roscrea or cyrodiil are suffering PR wise. In fact Roscrea cleaned up with our trailer just after Bruma and pretty much double the size of the team in a week

1shoedpunk 03-Jul-18 02:12 PM

I think we all agree on there being leadership that doesn't also have other responsibilities

Bellatrix 03-Jul-18 02:14 PM

If this serves as an update to the charter for me then it needs something in it about the provinces still having ultimate editorial control of their PR and also clarify that it’s the individual province who decides who the ambassador(s) for them are.

Also, I guess you’d find out what works best as you go along but not 100% convinced you need project and discipline leads. I’d just have project leads otherwise everyone will have a title and nothing will get done. But that’s just me I like minimal management structures as they tend to be more efficient.

But now I’m going to contradict myself - the website probably does need a lead because that’s a big undertaking and will probably be involved in a lot of the projects but apart from that it doesn’t really seem worth it.

Actually unless you want to formalise that the leads can’t be project leads as well this is all entirely doable under the current PR charter. It’s just never been done for whatever reason.

Also, what do the current leads of he PR team think of the proposal? Cos you’re effectively suggesting they step down or resign as project leads so are they ok with that?

And does the lead ban include province department director or just the overall province leads?

dodo721 03-Jul-18 02:50 PM

@Robcbwilson

Also, I think the leadership change should include any member of BS. For the leaders specifically this is a. Because of the workload and b. Because having someone fresh will reduce argument. The having two sets of leads is because really, the PR would function of a microcosm of bs, were it has an overall leadership to decide it's overall direction then several ongoing projects which need managing themselves

And yes, it states at the start that provinces retain control of their own pr, but I can make that clearer

@1shoedpunk @Bellatrix we've not been suffering from lack of attention, more the amount of potential not being used. As I said before we have major public figures in the TES community and beyond wanting to work with us. We aren't making as much use of that as we could be

Plus it would be good to share the benefits of successful pr. With it currently being every province doing their own thing, it's helping all of BS ofc, but not that universally. With more universal pr all provinces can benefit more

This isn't about how provinces are doing, it's about how BS as a whole is doing

In this way, not only can the pr dedicated team help you, but so can other provinces via collaboration, and in return the same can be said for them

dodo721 03-Jul-18 03:05 PM

Really, this would include a lot more people, be fun to do and not really affect the provinces. I know it might not be that different from the current charter, and pr for some provinces is going fine anyway, but I don't see either of those as reasons not to do it anyway if it doesn't affect them

It's an easy to implement change to the charter that will mean we can do more stuff, including more members and buffing up our public image. What's not to love?

Bellatrix 03-Jul-18 03:07 PM

Well I’m not sure it’s so easy to change cos it would require a unanimous vote. You could just do most of it without though if it came to it so that’s good.

As long as it doesn’t end up sucking up more cyrodiil / Roscrea time than we want to give vs spend on development I’d be fine with it. And if there was something like a team of fans turned PR dept that sorted out the UESP Bruma wiki that would be amazing. It would be good for BS but not something cyrodiil has the resource to devote time to.

Also what does the PR dept as a whole think of the proposal? Is it something they support ?

Meglos (Morrowind) 03-Jul-18 03:20 PM

I think the point of this whole thing being separate members from the provinces was so that it would not suck up more time from them and leave them more free to do their own things

Also, haven't we all agreed by this point that a unanimous vote is ridiculous and completely unproductive?

1shoedpunk 03-Jul-18 03:32 PM

No, that hasn't been removed from the charter. that's still policy for changes to the charter

There is plenty that doesn't require changes or amendments to the charter and reorganizing PR in the way discussed above falls mostly within the scope of the original vote that created it

The only thing that would require a vote is adding seats on the council for any PR lead(s)

And that isn't at the core of the proposal anyway, so I don't see any reason why PR can't adopt most of these changes internally

But when you say working with other members of the Elder Scrolls community, what role would PR play in that?

ub3rman123 03-Jul-18 04:37 PM

Do note that the primary benefit of the PR department right now while we're in heavy development is recruitment. When IB put out that teaser we got a huge influx, and I have to assume other provinces can say the same for their PR efforts.

dodo721 03-Jul-18 04:45 PM

@1shoedpunk take the video protect for example. We've reached out to ShoddyCast for collaboration, and are planning to release a series of videos about bs lore on his channel. More branching out like that. Reaching out to channels and people and using our presence to make connections

And yes, totally this would generate loads more for recruitment

In terms of adding PR leads to the council, that isn't at the core of this but I think it should be done. If the pr team is built like this it makes zero sense not to include them at the higher level. The more we alienate pr the worse it becomes

What do all the other teams think anyway? Not yet heard from Atmora, elsweyr, ib or the PR team themselves

Also, does the unanimous vote require all teams to vote unanimously or all members of the council?

Because if the latter then ofc nothing will every change, no one is always going to be entirely happy, that's what compromise is about (edited)

Hannes821 03-Jul-18 06:41 PM

I like the fresh air, and started the same general direction, @dodo721 . That being said, formalising the separation of pr and provinces is shadow boxing. Because firstly you need pleople willing to dedicate time to this pan bs thing, then only secondarily there may be a disadvantage on busy province members but again that depends really on people. Also we had been working with several well known YouTubers before, and it was great but that's not a specific strong point of a new pr team. I basically set up the new pr team with rob, and we could totally (and do) start working on new projects that we then suggest the teams, rob pushes the spotlight and I pushed the newsletter, both is established now. But be honest, the real problem is that there wasn't anything else happening, at least on our discord. I noticed your new video team and that is awesome. Thank you so much for all the positive work for bs. And you are great on webteam and I am super happy you will carry black marsh 3d. But I still don't see the potential gain of this proposal, sorry. We need active members in the pr team, not rules that exclude all active leads and most core members there.

And, ofc, 1shoed makes a point. All love should go on finding and getting implementers, not players.

The portfolio effect won't work if no team succeeds

For those who want to get in

The games industry

We should not become unrealistic. Yes bs is great, we have cool people and expansion is good, but we discussed changing the charter on a regular basis now as a symptom of slow progress while our real challenges are others

It is not just you, yes it is all with good intentions, but it is only because we feel the urge to push our projects towards finalisation

So we should rather focus on this, improvement of workflow within the teams and paying less attention to self entertainment etc... Not all of this refers to you, John

Sorry I was referring memes eventhough that doesn't belong here in this context

But yeah what formalities are holding us back?

I also suggested the ambassador idea a year ago when we restarted

The truth is simple

We only have 1 ambassador from iliac bay and one from cyrodiil

And else ask leads / directors

The named ambassadors are leads too

Doesn't make a difference

In reality we have the same people who can do that job. Changing the name on paper or even excluding it didn't add people

Can do that job = are available and authorized by their respective teams

Hannes821 03-Jul-18 07:22 PM

Suggestion: how about advertising BS in Informatics institutes on universities to increase range towards a certain group of students instead, who usually don't look up our website but know Skyrim and have the mental skilles? This would be kind of a campaign we could run from pr team to change for the better. Blackboard pins. I could reach some unis here. This is what I would see might help more likely.

1

Don't tell me you simply want to replace the pr team with the video team

That's what your speech there sounds like

Hannes821 03-Jul-18 07:44 PM

Also, about stranger: he left on good terms with me, akknowedging the reason being not wanting to work for bs. That was, when it finally became time for him to hand in his first claim in atmora and elsweyr as writer. He was very present on chat, but sadly not on development. I honestly regret adding him to the pr team and don't think he should be one of the 6 people working on our website. Just my opinion. We have many skilled and experienced members.

1shoedpunk 03-Jul-18 09:18 PM

Its hard to recruit students without a formal backing as an institution. I feel guilty enough advertising on professional forums. People's labor is worth a lot, especially with some of the skills we're looking for. We're a niche project.

Bellatrix 04-Jul-18 01:28 AM

If you’re going to recruit externally you need to aim high - especially for the PR lead. There will be people within the ES fan base who do PR and project manage professionally. In that respect we shouldn’t be any different to a village fete - try and get people from within the community with the relevant skills to donate their time. Students are technically skilled and would make awesome team members but they don’t have any project management skills which is something BS really suffers from.

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 02:49 AM

true, true. I would still try it though. Some might find it entertaining and be ready for this, eventhough not being a hardcore skyrim fan or having taken steps into new areas by now. the advertisement has to be clear about it being an unpaid job; and it is only attractive if we have the punch to get some provinces out. So i know why you would feel bad if we wouldnt, but we have to try our best; and we dont have to promise "you will ship a project until release" etc.

ub3rman123 04-Jul-18 02:50 AM

We had that problem when Joe put up a LinkedIn ad; lot of people messaged expecting commissions.

1

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 02:51 AM

yes. "Hobby Project. Building a world" etc. should be enough to avoid this, no? i mean if we present a draft and you check it here it should be alright, no?

dodo721 04-Jul-18 03:37 AM

@Hannes821 by no means is this trying to get the video team to replace the pr team. I am a bs member, so I would consider myself part of the "no member leads" rule, and I would step down. The proposal in fact comes from the problems that the video team has had. With almost everyone in it working on provinces, especially leads, and with the lack of communications with provinces that we try to get, we can't function nearly as effectively as we want to, and I believe the same goes for the pr team. In terms of audience that's up to what projects and content the pr team wish to cover, tho while I agree there should be targeting of skilled people to get recruits, general pr etc increasing our general exposure is no bad thing in my eyes either. And the point of having separate members is so that they will be active. If the members working on pr are dedicated to pr, then they will be active on pr as they're not busy elsewhere. Again, I feel this has been taken wildly out of context. We have a wide scope of potential for new projects with new people, again ultimately for gain of exposure and for fun too. Please let's not forget we're trying to have fun for the members as well, that should be at the heart of our decisions. But it's been taken into the context of being unproductive and not beneficial industrially, which is sounding like a business. We're not a business looking only to make profit, we make no profit as a rule. There's no point in excluding projects merely because there's not as much benefit when it doesn't even impact on the current projects. It's even been said I'm trying to replace pr with my team. The whole point is that my team wouldn't be on it, it would be new people. I would make the video project a sub project of PR via the structure.

Also I would like to mention that the structure proposed was an example and is not as rigid as the other parts. The key points were about member allocation and province collaboration, that was a suggested method of doing that

dodo721 04-Jul-18 03:46 AM

Really I just don't see "we don't need it so much" as an excuse not to do it when it would not cost the provinces anyway

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 03:46 AM

well.

the big problem is not having seperate members, but having members.

the analysis is correct, the problem with the video team is that they are busy.

but that is, because they are available insiders who follow you on the move, me included.

what we need is more members, not seperation rules

dodo721 04-Jul-18 03:47 AM

The separation rules are not meant to be formal, more that I'm suggesting we get more people in

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 03:48 AM

everybody would sign that immediately

dodo721 04-Jul-18 03:48 AM

The reason I wrote it that way is not because I want to segregate bs, more just that simply bs leads are busy, including me

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 03:49 AM

we do need it much, but my point is that the apporach is "around the corner" you suggested

dodo721 04-Jul-18 03:49 AM

Now that I'm part of bs if we had enough leads to take over I would happily step down for them so I can focus my work too

BM*

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 03:49 AM

like, not the straight forward approach to solve it

dodo721 04-Jul-18 03:50 AM

I see your point. It's not meant to be a formality rule to combat the issue. Let me phrase it better then: we should aim to have no bs leads on there

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 03:50 AM

but we need really PR that aims on hobby devs. and new people. the busy job is managing the influx of newbies and ofc advertising outside.

dodo721 04-Jul-18 03:51 AM

Ofc the decision as to what audience to target and what projects to do that with would be responsibilities lying with the pr team. The issue I'm looking at isn't who we target, but getting the team active with more people

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 03:51 AM

we can totally achieve this under the current constitution. But i acknoledge that the intension is to improve things. But we need to start working on ourselfs and our mates work flow and work ethics ;-) the charter wont do it.

well, the pr team is to support the dev teams. So it must have the big goal to boost production as long as we have some

inside the frame, the method should be chosen by pr experts,y es

dodo721 04-Jul-18 03:53 AM

I want to ultimately move the team away from being governed by charters and laws. Bethesda themselves I doubt is even that formal. I feel it hinders progress and becomes restricting when it is too formally considered

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 03:54 AM

a team with several studios and 300+ members is

dodo721 04-Jul-18 03:54 AM

I believe this for the council itself, but that's not the issue I'm looking at now. Focusing on giving pr the freedom to act as it needs to is my aim

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 03:54 AM

definitely, they are a economic cooperation

we are very very very sloppy set up. this is a very very free organisation where basically you can do whatever you want unless you do damage to content of others

i mean that we arent that formal at all

sorry maybe my comparisions are different, from corporate law i studied

dodo721 04-Jul-18 03:56 AM

Yes, definitely we don't want to become our own government with laws etc lol.

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 03:56 AM

you need a basic frame.

dodo721 04-Jul-18 03:57 AM

But in that case, I propose we start formally looking for pr dedicated members and pr dedicated project managers around the community, and begin a transition phase were we start moving the team onto dedicated members and leads

If I'm correct the only thing that requires a vote by the current rules is whether those leads sit on the council or not, but I see zero reason for them not to

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 03:59 AM

i already started that a year ago, and yes, i am happy we do that. you dont need a formal permission to add members to the team

the biggest problem was before we couldnt edit the roles in bards PR discord server, but now we can.

dodo721 04-Jul-18 04:00 AM

Why don't we start actively putting out adverts for pr members and leads as well then?

I haven't seen any if they already exist

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 04:00 AM

i did on some forums occasionally. but in smaller scale and to recruits that joined atmora

(which is why you see a lot of prior atmorans in the PR team)

i didnt do big posts in the name of BS

i think rob did at some point, but we should, continuously

dodo721 04-Jul-18 04:01 AM

We should definitely yes

When we put up the advert of website developers we got five within the day iirc

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We'd get a ton more for pr as it's not as a specialised position

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 04:02 AM

yes, it was even like 20% of random applications for my province before.

dodo721 04-Jul-18 04:03 AM

Tho I suggest as Claire mentioned we look for leads that have prior project management experience

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 04:03 AM

*region

dodo721 04-Jul-18 04:03 AM

That would definitely be a bonus

Bellatrix 04-Jul-18 04:03 AM

First thing first. You need buy-in from the rest of the PR team and management.

Most of this shouldn’t need to be a council issue. It’s just about the internal workings of the PR team.

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Propose it to them and see what happens. The only thing you need council approval for is for a council seat.

dodo721 04-Jul-18 04:05 AM

The reason I brought it to the council was because a. Of the structure changes which I maybe incorrectly assumed the council would need to approve, and b. To highlight the province collaboration issue which does directly apply to the council

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 04:05 AM

how would we change that collaboration then?

dodo721 04-Jul-18 04:05 AM

But yes if it doesn't require council permission them we can look at that internally

That's something I hoped to discuss further. My proposal was the ambassadors that are able to act on their own in smaller scenarios too, but other suggestions if people have them are welcome

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 04:06 AM

PR team starting making videos and posts and then asking provinces for content, i think that is covered by status quo. as long as the provinces have the final word weither or not to publish their material.

dodo721 04-Jul-18 04:07 AM

Rob told me different, he said that the team could only do what provinces ask them to do

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 04:07 AM

these ambassedors can be formaly named, but as i say, in the end its a specific director or department lead who will be the person in charge, very very likely

you dont get double structures

dodo721 04-Jul-18 04:09 AM

I say department director, not lead. The point would be to not occupy the leads with minor issues because that's what gets them annoyed and takes up too much time for them

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 04:10 AM

dep lead and directors

its a bit confused because some teams still use the old naming convention out of practise

this is basically the "directors council"

"eg project lead" but not department lead

dodo721 04-Jul-18 04:11 AM

Ok, well the department leads then

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 04:11 AM

yes, usually when doing newsletter i worked with dep leads and asked for an ultimate okay from the directors if they were available

just a short yes / no

after its done

but that depends on them

if they dont care, then the dep lead (ambassedor) is enough

*or trust the lead sorry

my casual wording

dodo721 04-Jul-18 04:13 AM

That's my thinking

Bellatrix 04-Jul-18 04:13 AM

The ‘can’t do anything without asking’ is very passive aggressive. PR charter says it’s to act as a resource for PR and organise pan BS stuff. What you can’t do is say ‘we’re going to do a video on cyrodiil lore and you’re going to contribute’ what you can do is organise pan-BS lore videos and ask projects to contribute.

It’s just to ensure the Projects not PR has ultimate control over what is and isn’t released about their individual project.

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 04:15 AM

and for me, it works like that now, and you can still suggest and prepare a video series, like we did with spotlight / newsletter or other campaigns

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dodo721 04-Jul-18 04:15 AM

That's a given for this overhaul thing, yes

Ofc permission is always required. The problem is getting permission

Because the leads are busy etc, our video project is still waiting on a lot of stuff to be considered

So ambassadors who can make those decisions instead of taking up lead time would help it go wicker

Quickly*

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 04:16 AM

but thats a bottleneck of time capacity within the teams, little chance to fix this from outside.

yes

so maybe get responsible people appointed

that should help

but that doesnt need a new system or charter

dodo721 04-Jul-18 04:17 AM

No, in which case I'd want to start the first phase which I believe would be putting out adverts for new members

Tho again having the PR leads on the council, is that something that we can do without hassle?

Because really it's kind of a necessity for communication

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 04:19 AM

well since the pr director and core members (no department leads in PR currently) are councellors, thats no issue (yet)

adding a seat is per se something democratic, and information flow is a very legitimate reason for the general good. however, we must all agree to take decisions

thats why it isnt seen as welcome to make the council bigger

(delaying things potentially)

dodo721 04-Jul-18 04:21 AM

Well that's good then. I have to go for now. I'm still on holiday and will be for a while so I won't be around all the time to help with that effort, but I'd certainly want to be part of it.

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 04:21 AM

okay maybe next time it will be more fun topics again

have a nice holiday!

dodo721 04-Jul-18 04:21 AM

I can see that but it's only an addition if three people max probably, and not adding them for the sake of less argument would only detract from them

Thanks guys, see you later

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dodo721 04-Jul-18 05:03 AM

One more thing while I get the chance: many people wanted to see my proposal after I had proposed it. I promised I would make it public once the council had discussed it. I would make clear ofc the decisions that have been made and that the proposal is not being formally added to the charter, but I do want to show it as I promised none the less

So I can say what parts of it are being taken up and what was compromised on and what was left out, at least at the moment. Transparency and all that

1shoedpunk 04-Jul-18 11:17 AM

The ambassadors would have the level of permissions based off what the team they're working with is willing to extend, it seems like

Which would allow for teams who really do want to just delegate that to do it and for other teams who want a bit more control over what goes out from them to have that editorial approval

Yeah it may be a bottleneck with some teams but that is unavoidable

Robcbwilson 04-Jul-18 02:43 PM

As the prevailing sentiment seems to be that a new leadership of the PR team is a good idea I have decided to step down as PR Lead once a new team is in place. I have presented the proposal to the PR team who are discussing it and seem broadly in favour of it

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 02:48 PM

so you are against this?

then who is actually running this whole policy

Meglos (Morrowind) 04-Jul-18 02:48 PM

I think he's saying he's in favour of this

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 02:49 PM

ah okay

anyways

Meglos (Morrowind) 04-Jul-18 02:49 PM

He said that the PR team overall thinks it's a good idea

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 02:49 PM

ah, ok

Robcbwilson 04-Jul-18 02:54 PM

I am not against it

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 02:56 PM

ok

yeah i mean i am not fundamentally against anything, but i dont understand yet how this helps

Robcbwilson 04-Jul-18 02:57 PM

I am also not going to go against the prevailing sentiment which is that a new leadership is needed

Hannes821 04-Jul-18 02:57 PM

aha. ok.

well yeah

we could definitely need more pro-active engaged people

Robcbwilson 06-Jul-18 02:27 PM

The PR team have agreed with the broad strokes of the proposal and have prepared a message for Social Media looking primarily for more leads which we will post today / tomorrow

Larrian (Morrowind) 06-Jul-18 02:28 PM

Nice!

Robcbwilson 06-Jul-18 02:28 PM

Once we have identified (potential) leads the handover process will begin

dodo721 06-Jul-18 03:08 PM

Awesome

HannesDettmann 06-Jul-18 03:40 PM

Hannes821 06-Jul-18 04:12 PM

*handover process * as of, helping them to get in, then hand over

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Hannes821 27-Jul-18 03:31 AM

template of newsletter volume 5 is on. content please!

dodo721 31-Jul-18 05:31 PM

Just saw that Cyrodiil and Morrowind have changed the website recruitment alert that tells peopel to go to the DC forums to point back to their pages for the recruitment forms on the website. I just want to check that this was intentional as last I heard they weren't working @Cyrodiil @Morrowind

I'd prefer if they could all be redirected and kept to the DC forums for now as otherwise it's spreading things out over the website that could make problems for the website development

Meglos (Morrowind) 31-Jul-18 06:00 PM

No, this was intentional

Thanks for the concern, though!

ub3rman123 31-Jul-18 06:01 PM

Are they functional again?

Meglos (Morrowind) 31-Jul-18 06:02 PM

They've always been functional, the only problem was that all the emails were being redirected to the general BS email, which made it a hassle to sort through

Linton and I set up new emails for Cyrodiil and Morrowind respectively and linked the forms on our specific province's page to them

ub3rman123 31-Jul-18 06:03 PM

I... was unaware of that being an option.

dodo721 31-Jul-18 06:03 PM

Would you mind switching it back for now to DC? It's more for your benefit than mine, but when we start transitioning u may lose applications, and it might cause problems on our end

Meglos (Morrowind) 31-Jul-18 06:04 PM

@ub3rman123 Ask Linton about it, I just happened to be chatting with him at the time which is why he set it up for me as well

@dodo721 When are you going to be transferring things?

ub3rman123 31-Jul-18 06:05 PM

@linton please halp for IB

I actually haven't any idea who currently has the access to change things like that.

dodo721 31-Jul-18 06:06 PM

not for a while, i thought it would be best to do so now so it would a. give people time to realise were the new applications are going and b. keep everything in the same place. not to mention it could confuse people into trying to apply thru our pages

afterwards it would be set up thru ur email

from a development perspective its just a hassle to be keeping track of different systems doing different things when they can all be in the same place

ub3rman123 31-Jul-18 06:07 PM

I don't think it's an issue to just have the newsletter having separate links; they're in separate bits of the page anyways.

dodo721 31-Jul-18 06:08 PM

im not meaning the newsletter, i mean the actual recruitment page

its not a big issue really just a convinience thing

Hannes821 01-Aug-18 03:01 PM

didnt check for eternity ^^

i asked if i should keep the link to the recr page in the newsletter, and since the forum links still work, even without email supporrt, its useful and was decided to keep it in

we can take it out whenever you want

dodo721 01-Aug-18 03:03 PM

the newsletter is ok i was just confirming the links on the actual recruitment website page, that was all

Hannes821 01-Aug-18 04:08 PM

Yes I wanted everyone to know about this conversation with me and Rob since you talked about it

dodo721 04-Aug-18 07:11 AM

@here the DC forums are currently not letting people register, so we need a temporary recruitment system till we can get that temporary system working till we can get the actual system working

probably the easiest way is to just ask people to email us directly for now, or contact us thru discord

Robcbwilson 04-Aug-18 07:12 AM

Has anyone pinged Xae on DC?

dodo721 04-Aug-18 07:14 AM

not yet, i asked in department directors. i can message him

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Hannes821 04-Aug-18 08:06 AM

private emails is meeeh. and discord is a bit like, inviting them to community outpost or arcane uni?

dodo721 04-Aug-18 08:09 AM

yeah, maybe just having a temporary applications channel to serve as a replacement for the forum board

but only if it cant be fixed soon

ub3rman123 04-Aug-18 08:10 AM

I had heard some projects got the beyondskyrim.org portal working again to send to their gmail accounts. Can we get that repaired for everyone?

Redirecting to the forums was already a fallback when the site broke.

dodo721 04-Aug-18 08:11 AM

from what i heard it wasnt actually eveer broken, it was just linked to one account. you can get it set up with your own accounts if you want but the new recruitment system is already taking shape for the website reform anyway

Hannes821 04-Aug-18 08:23 AM

well, we are not registered in Gsuite anymore, so for that reason we really cant access that mail pool

Gsuite came along with being registered as NGO under Joseph Cromwells name in australia (not that i need that)

but ofc, after he left, then we wouldnt have access. he just set it up prior leaving.

i have no opinions about it, we dont use Gsuite.

but now, if people write an email there, they are definitely lost for us!

ub3rman123 04-Aug-18 08:25 AM

@dodo721 What's the new recruitment system?

Hannes821 04-Aug-18 08:25 AM

so, if that link is still shared out there, we should make this clear that it can not be checked

it was planned as in-website messenger system

where we could basically put everything on BS.Org and are less dependend on DC

more like a corporate design and all, more comprehensive

the forums had the issue that 1) they are seldomly checked and 2) that there had been this struggle who responds first to recruits and 3) they look a bit archaic and 4) they are an extra system on top of our website. I still like to write stuff in the forums, but the reality is, that everything internal happens on discord, and external (PR) on the website

oh and then the website also has features like making sure that the message gets to the responsible people and so on; i was thinking of this, a lighte symbol that shows the applicant if it was read or not so they dont feel tension. But i know there had been mixed opinions about that, its what the web team has to discuss anyways

waiting for reply can maybe be demotivating?

dodo721 04-Aug-18 08:40 AM

the system we will use will have a status thing probably to show when uve been responded too

@ub3rman123 yeah what Hannes said, and in website inbox thing with its own form

ub3rman123 04-Aug-18 08:42 AM

As long as it's working long-term, it's getting tiresome trying to keep applicants caught up on what the recruitment medium of the month is.

1

Bellatrix 04-Aug-18 08:49 AM

It’s not gsuite cyrodiil is using it’s our own cyrodiil gmail. I’m going to set one up for Roscrea today.

dodo721 04-Aug-18 08:50 AM

itll be a long term solution

and it'll work with custom emails for notifying, but the actual accepting etc will be done via the website

Bellatrix 04-Aug-18 10:12 AM

how do we link it to accounts? Roscrea's new email is beyondskyrimroscrea@gmail.com

dodo721 04-Aug-18 10:16 AM

Linton set it up for Morrowind and Roscrea, so i'd ask him. i could try but im heading off atm lol

ub3rman123 04-Aug-18 10:21 AM

We just have to set up a generic Gmail account and share around login info, no fancy Gsuite stuff any more?

Is it worth setting up if the new recruitment thing is in the works?

Right now people know to use the forum, and I'd hate to drop two more "this is the new venue"s on them.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-18 10:24 AM

yes but that took a lot longer than expected hence the morrowind / cyrodiil switch and as DC is down and it wasn't work that well for us / Roscrea is just about to (hopefully) release a trailer and get a few more recruits in the aftermath it seemed worth taking the plunge for us too. We can switch when the other one is set up but the forum isn't really working as a solution vs how easy it is with the cyrodiil email.

AlassinSane 04-Aug-18 10:29 AM

I understand why you'd be reluctant to keep changing it around, but honestly it's more of a pain for us than it is for them. We just cover all bases each time and make sure that applications go to the right place - when people google BS looking to apply, they find the recruitment page where we set up the application to go wherever we want. For now, it can be the team's gmails. When it's the website, it'll go straight to the website form. If anyone applies via the forums still, one of us can just comment and point them to the right place. They only depend on the search results to find the right page, not word-of-mouth.

Hannes821 04-Aug-18 02:55 PM

Ehm, can we please add an atmora Gmail? We hadn't had a look in the mailbox for many months now

Well it feels like that

Since we swapped from gsuite

Will ask you in the webteam, john, thanks very much

We can't predict how long it will take to finish the website with ren, right? Sorry that I sound negative, I am optimistic, it would just be cool to have a working solution for the time some people still Send us mails there.

expeditiontoatmora@gmail.com

Robcbwilson 04-Aug-18 03:03 PM

beyond.skyrim.elsweyr@gmail.com

dodo721 04-Aug-18 03:11 PM

so you want me to put these into the recruitment forms? @Hannes821 @Robcbwilson @Bellatrix

Robcbwilson 04-Aug-18 03:12 PM

Yes please

dodo721 04-Aug-18 03:13 PM

ok, let me look into it then, ill get back to u shortly

Hannes821 04-Aug-18 03:14 PM

Thanks

I promise we go back to the new system immediately when it works

dodo721 04-Aug-18 03:16 PM

also @here : we're looking at the province pages for each province on the website. Each one will contain some text about the province, some screenshots / images, a link to their DC forum and a link to the recruitment page (there will be one recruitment page and u select ur provinces in the form), plus any other content u want on the page within reason. if u can come up with what u want on your pages that would be good

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np Hannes

dodo721 04-Aug-18 03:36 PM

@Hannes821 @Robcbwilson site's updated, ur forms work now

1

Robcbwilson 04-Aug-18 03:37 PM

Nicely done sir!

1shoedpunk 04-Aug-18 10:59 PM

@Hannes821 was doing some maintenance with the titles, and looking at the project cp on dc it seems like some of the council roles may be out of date. are there any new province or au leads that don't have access yet or is there anyone on this list who is no longer a province lead?

1shoedpunk Anathem7x Bellatrix Deeza Enheduanna GoodKingJohn Hannes821 Kelretu larrian_evermore Lord Hayden Meglos mindmonkey MoonSugarLeader Nago robcbwilson Sage of Ice SamuraiHealer Tascani The Old Ye Bard ub3rman123

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 12:40 AM

That's exactly what I posted here last time I looked into dc

Lord Hayden is still AF right?

Mindmonkey, the other hannes, is currently AU, kelretu is on a holiday, I have no info if and when he will return

Enheduanna is BM director (you say lead) right?

Deeza is department lead of writing in iliac bay as far as I know

Not a director / province lead

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 12:42 AM

But isn’t anoverall lead anymore as far as I know?

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 12:42 AM

Excuse me, I don't understand

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 12:43 AM

I mean I don’t think Deeza should still be on the list. But worth checking in case I’m wrong.

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 12:43 AM

Ah yes i think not a director/ province lead

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 12:43 AM

I should follow up with Nago too actually.

Not sure about the elswhyr province leads and if they’re still up to date @Robcbwilson

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 12:44 AM

I wasn't sure about him/her. You are the first director/ province lead in roscrea so you can tell if the said person is working in this position or not

Good point. I see the moonsugarlead sometimes, but bard remains a ghost

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 12:45 AM

He’s not but never formally resigned.

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 12:46 AM

Hmm I think this is an pending management issue in roscrea and should be resolved

We all have these cases, more or less

I regularly kick inactive people on merge after a conversation. This time again they all agreed to the decision and would maybe reapply. I reduced the team from 80+ to about 50+ accounts, without voice actors 40ish, and as a result, we talk more openly, directly and more often, the amount of active people raised from 20,% ish to about 70% ish with the Others having real life reasons to take a break. I can only suggest that. When we had a small team before BS we accomplished more than when we started with 150+ accounts on the forum. You keep People with the will to deliver and then you don't have to argue about deadlines anymore. You can focus on ideas and concepts, it's very favourable. (edited)

It's investing the time you have in a smaller team with experts and more personal connection to enhance the communication and output. That's the idea we run and so far it works. I actually think that 15 to 25 active people are plenty

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 01:01 AM

Its not an issue. There’s no off topic distraction it’s literally just a matter of giving him a heads up that he’s about to get removed as a lead. We hadn’t done it because he’s never around so it’s not a problem.

It’s more just an issue of keeping everything tidy.

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 01:13 AM

Yeah sorry I got carried away by talking about my own experience

I am happy if everyone can easily agree and is involved

This doesn't really refer to nago

More general Blabla

We even have a system to evaluate the value of each member each cycle. People get nothing, a bronze medal, silver or gold with the respective cycle number. It sounds ridiculous but it pays tribute to those who work more and honours them as a soft motivation. Ofc most people don't need it, but some really increased Every cycle because of it...

Hayden 05-Aug-18 03:34 AM

Kelretu is back in action as of a few days ago

Although a Dept Director in IB, not sure about Project Lead

Would have to follow up with Mindmonkey or Kel about that one

dodo721 05-Aug-18 03:55 AM

@Hannes821 bard is taking a break atm but is still lead and will return

Enheduanna is BM and MW lead

Robcbwilson 05-Aug-18 04:05 AM

Yes, the Elsweyr Leads are still the same (edited)

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 04:22 AM

I think having 2 powerful people at AU is not a bad thing

Honestly we need to invest there as much time as possible

HannesDettmann 05-Aug-18 04:37 AM

I agree. Can't hurt to have two admins in AU. Although imo what AU really needs is more active teachers for each discipline I feel. A lot of the questions asked are easy and can be answered by other students or Google. But implementation is different, needs more expertise and is only covered by sarthes afaik. We should invest a bit more energy into grooming more imps and animators for the mid- and longrun

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 04:39 AM

1shoed cannot do everything, and tascani is very busy....

I just answered an "how to compile" question, but it's true, for advanced questions we only have sarthes

Implementation is the bottle neck

We need to get on more people with a informatics background

Costa also knows a lot I think

Cannot do everything in the meaning that he already carries a lot of cyrodiil and cross province projects like map markers etc

Didn't have time yet to investigate the implementation of mm recently, sorry 1shoed

HannesDettmann 05-Aug-18 04:57 AM

I fully agree, Hannes. I know our imps are extremely busy and I wouldn't want to put more work onto them. I am just stating the current situation. If sarthes would leave AU or BS for some reason, there would be no implementation being taught in AU, which would hurt BS in the long run I am afraid.

We need to think of a strategy to get more imps on board to avoid bottle necks. Anybody correct me if I'm wrong.

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 05:01 AM

Unfortunately it's a chicken and egg problem - we barely have any implementers so there aren't many who teach compared to other disciplines where we have a lot more team members and so there fewer implementers trained. Rinse and repeat. It's not just BS - if you look at the number of new sword mods or house mods vs those with quests in them it's probably proportional to the make up of the BS skill set.

HannesDettmann 05-Aug-18 05:13 AM

yeah...exactly my thoughts

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 05:23 AM

Exactly. Break out the cycle. I am not a long experienced implementer, but I will finish most of the basic work on our main quests and a few side quests and learn everything along the way, professionally I will also work with (Siemens)simtalk, python and c++ and others might, so I should slowly get deeper in it so I can share more on au. Most recently joined Informatics students have the problem that they didn't play Skyrim and can't easily find it on Steam. We need to treat them VIP. Already now for teams in later stages, like cyrodiil and atmora, it's mostly a question of implementation when we will get done, we can't take them precious enough

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 05:26 AM

Roscrea too - we struggle for implementers and its starting to become an issue now

dodo721 05-Aug-18 05:26 AM

BM will be in the same state, though we are planning to divide up the implementation crew into teams, as when we get far enough we'll need a lot of custom skeletons, animations and behaviours which is a big task. So we're going to be setting up a department dedicated to the animation and behaviour side of implementation, so we can free up our other implementers for other tasks. A lot of people apply with computer science or programming knowledge and they're all good for implementation

We have the benefit tho of not needing to implement yet

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 05:28 AM

Well animation is a different challenge

I think it's a nice to have after it's clear that enough quality quests can be done

I mean people like tascani are amazing and could do crazy things you never have seen on Nexus before. The problem is that such people are very desired in the job market

He is often traveling continents etc

Ofc a hobby project like ours has a hard match to compete with such challenging and interesting career options

So in the end I switched the plan, I will carry atmora quests with anathem, vivec, vykaz and DCM and siberius and let him check it and add some mechanics that are unique

dodo721 05-Aug-18 05:36 AM

Yeah, for us animation is more important but your right that they're very hunted. One approach I want to take is to take the most active and capable members from 3d etc in our team and train them in implementation (after I've trained myself). 3d does some very basics CK usage anyway so it's a good base to start on

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 05:39 AM

So the plan for BM is starting with assets, not right away quests?

Ofc it would be best to have both

At once

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 05:41 AM

You might struggle with that. Most members are quite casual and just do what they enjoy. Of course you'll have a core of people who are willing to do the less fun stuff but don't assume it'll be more than about 5-10 % of your entire team

1

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 05:42 AM

Yes

I would start the duty work first to be honest

It also allows for polishing afterwards

But I understand that for BM creatures are a very very central aspect

And that you know about this workflow well

So it's not bad if you can push there

dodo721 05-Aug-18 05:46 AM

Yeah, the problem is creatures are pretty central to BM compared to other provinces. I know we'll not get many members but I've asked about it to the team and got two or three willing members from there. Ofc they may disappear or not do much in implementation but it's just whatever we can get from them will help

1

I'm not expecting to get a blossoming team from it lol

And we haven't forgotten about quests either. But BM can't do that yet because our LD don't have enough assets to start

So implementation is idle for us atm. Which means that this is a good time to get creatures going, as they can't do quests yet

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 05:47 AM

They can do early stuff with writing, set up your levelled lists with placeholders etc

one main thing we struggled with early in Bruma was writers coming up with stuff that couldn't be implemented so having your writers and implimenters work closely really helps - Mattie who used to be our implementation lead really helped with that and then cos Lasur is a genius he taught himself implementation in about a week and we've never looked back.

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 05:49 AM

You can consider having 1 or 2 people starting on quests and use some Skyrim creatures as dummies. Just an idea. Also, ofc creatures produce more pr pictures than quests do, so you might get more people, but it can only be an intermediate focus

Yes, we had like a year or 2 of concentrated writing for environmental world and then used Dummies and replacers and step by step upgraded them

Still wip ofc

Exactly @Bellatrix this working together along the writing LD implementation chain, crucial, you can hear it in every talk

You can already see this fact if you check game design study courses

Concept art, 3d and animation is one specialisation for pros, writing,ld, implementation the other, artificial ai and scripting /coding the other (we don't need it using Beth's framework)

https://beyondskyrim.org/writing-narrative-exposition/

Hannes Ulbricht

Writing: Narrative Exposition - Beyond Skyrim

Writing: Narrative Exposition Hello, Skyrim fans and BS members, welcome to this little tutorial on writing. 1) General Considerations Writing is a vast field. It includes the most potentially creative opportunities to shape a new concept of a game. But it is also the mos...

Feedback welcome

I polished 4 tutorials From DC yesterday and put them on the website

Also, updated the links in Hayden's tutorial

dodo721 05-Aug-18 06:00 AM

Thanks for the advice guys. We can't start quests at all atm as we don't have any written (Enhe is dealing with irl stuff right now so isn't able to set it up). But definitely when we do start they'll be working together a lot

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 06:01 AM

If there is anything you dislike or would like to see, please let me know

dodo721 05-Aug-18 06:01 AM

I can't read them right now but I will later!

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 06:01 AM

If we get atmora shipped maybe I can help

Thanks

dodo721 05-Aug-18 06:02 AM

Any and all help we get would be welcome lol! No official release dates ofc but BM will likely be last out so I'm looking forward to getting some more members in that last phase

Hannes821 05-Aug-18 06:17 AM

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:08 PM

So, going off the profiles on DC only, this is the current leadership list of all the provinces

@here

Cyrodiil 1shoedpunk Bellatrix Illiac Bay ub3rman123 Sage of Ice Morrowind Enheduanna larrian_evermore Meglos Black Marsh Enheduanna larrian_evermore saturnus? simsim899? Elsweyr MoonSugarLeader robcbwilson The Old Ye Bard Roscrea Nago Bellatrix Atmora Anathem7x Hannes821 Tascani

I know Black Marsh is out of date, but are the others accurate? (edited)

ub3rman123 05-Aug-18 01:09 PM

Accurate for IB.

dodo721 05-Aug-18 01:09 PM

yeah saturnus and simsim are no longer in BM

and i am lol

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:09 PM

you might want to update DC

Deeza Kelretu Lord Hayden mindmonkey SamuraiHealer

dodo721 05-Aug-18 01:09 PM

Elsweyr has SageOfIce and SamuraiHealer as well i think

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:09 PM

are any of these members listed as leads still leads?

dodo721 05-Aug-18 01:10 PM

mindmonkey and Hayden are AU and AF leads respectively, Samurai is Elswyer im pretty sure and Kel is department director, not lead

idk about deeza

@ub3rman123

ub3rman123 05-Aug-18 01:11 PM

Deeza

's not a lead on IB, just writing director.

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:12 PM

kelretu is no longer arcane university lead then?

that's what's currently listed in terms of title

Okay if that's all correct then, the current roster of province leads is:

Cyrodiil 1shoedpunk Bellatrix Illiac Bay ub3rman123 Sage of Ice Morrowind Enheduanna larrian_evermore Meglos Black Marsh Enheduanna larrian_evermore GoodKingJohn Elsweyr MoonSugarLeader robcbwilson The Old Ye Bard SamuraiHealer Sage of Ice Roscrea Nago Bellatrix Atmora Anathem7x Hannes821 Tascani AU mindmonkey AF Lord Hayden

And kelretu and deeza are the only two members listed as leads on dc that are out of date, with the exception of black marsh's project cp needing an update

dodo721 05-Aug-18 01:14 PM

BM: Enheduanna GoodKingJohn Zeezee

I replaced larrian

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:15 PM

okay so zeezee needs to be promoted on DC then

dodo721 05-Aug-18 01:15 PM

yeah. idk how to use DC and i g2g so ill update it later

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:15 PM

i added zeezee to the council just now

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 01:16 PM

You have to ask an admin to do council level promotions don’t you?

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:16 PM

apparently i am one?

i was just able to

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 01:16 PM

Apparently not. Nago isn’t a Roscrea lead as he’s been inactive for an insane length of time but not sure if we should wait for him to get back to me or just do it?

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:17 PM

How long has he been inactive?

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 01:18 PM

About a year and not acting in a lead capacity before that for about 3.

I doubt the new team could tell you who he is.

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:18 PM

Okay

So

Cyrodiil 1shoedpunk Bellatrix Illiac Bay ub3rman123 Sage of Ice Morrowind Enheduanna larrian_evermore Meglos Black Marsh Enheduanna ZeeZee GoodKingJohn Elsweyr MoonSugarLeader robcbwilson The Old Ye Bard SamuraiHealer Sage of Ice Roscrea Bellatrix Atmora Anathem7x Hannes821 Tascani AU mindmonkey AF Lord Hayden

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 01:19 PM

I thought there was a limit of 3 council members per province?

1

So is elswhyr over it?

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:19 PM

Promoting Zeezee to council, demoting Nago, Deeza, and Kelretu and if their statuses change within the internal project they let us know

I think it's 3 seats but there's overlap in Elsweyr

ub3rman123 05-Aug-18 01:19 PM

I'm not sure Elsweyr's is up to date, let's wait for them to come online.

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:19 PM

With other teams

Robcbwilson 05-Aug-18 01:20 PM

I am here

The list is still up to date

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:21 PM

There's not a hard rule against it but if a province is clearly trying to stuff the ballot we raise it as an issue. With overlapping membership though I don't think that it's a problem for the council. It might be too many chefs but that's a matter of opinion

Okay, I'm pretty sure this list is accurate

I'm going to make a post in the public council forum unless anyone has any objections?

HannesDettmann 05-Aug-18 01:22 PM

No objections

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 01:22 PM

I need to double check - I honestly think it’s a maximum of three but overlap is weird.

Robcbwilson 05-Aug-18 01:22 PM

Is the last list the Council Seats?

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:22 PM

Yeah

Robcbwilson 05-Aug-18 01:22 PM

We only have three

And only want three

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:23 PM

actually wait yeah

Robcbwilson 05-Aug-18 01:23 PM

So for that, Elsweyr would be:

Elsweyr MoonSugarLeader robcbwilson The Old Ye Bard

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:23 PM

the only overlap is sage

oh ok

Robcbwilson 05-Aug-18 01:23 PM

For Council Seats

The others are part of our Leadeship team

But not on the Council

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 01:26 PM

So that list applies to this chat too if people want to be part of it and everyone else is in director chat? Or is his not council chat? I’m not sure how the list here compares to the DC forum and if this chat needs updating too?

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-18 01:27 PM

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/7424-admin-council-members/

made an update here

Bellatrix 05-Aug-18 01:27 PM

Trying to check but it’s too hard on my phone and I’m not sure everyone has the same name on both - I definitely don’t

Actually it doesn’t need updating at least once cos Nago is in here too. Who has permissions to add and remove?

Hannes821 06-Aug-18 02:24 AM

well this chat also has nago, and allassin sane from the video team, which arent direcors (province leads) on DC.

but i am happy we finally got ZeeZee on DC promoted, i wanted to do last time already! Gonna like 1shoeds update right away on DC lol

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 02:05 PM

only an administrator can remove people who shouldn't be in here so it would have to be @Larrian (Morrowind)or @Meglos (Morrowind)

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 02:09 PM

Who needs removing from where?

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 02:09 PM

Nago definitely needs removing from here

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 02:09 PM

Removing from directors or the server altogether?

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 02:09 PM

we've been having a tidy up of the council permissions on DC - it's on here if you skim up a bit

I've been in contact with him and he was fine about making him stepping down formal so that's all sorted

oh just this chat

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 02:10 PM

Alrighty, done

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 02:10 PM

AFAIK we can all ban people

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 02:10 PM

Yeah

dodo721 08-Aug-18 02:10 PM

cant ban people on here

unless ur admin

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 02:11 PM

Oh. Maybe all council members should be admins then?

dodo721 08-Aug-18 02:11 PM

that would mean none of us could ban each other except whoever created this server

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 02:12 PM

Although it seems to work ok - I just assumed that moderators could also ban.

dodo721 08-Aug-18 02:12 PM

we can ban anyone lower than us

just not people in this chat

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 02:12 PM

Well none of us can ban each other now

Apart from larrian and megalos

Ah ok so it is how I though then. That makes sense

dodo721 08-Aug-18 02:13 PM

who does own this server?

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 02:13 PM

Larrian appareantly. Thik=nk it might have been Joe originally!

dodo721 08-Aug-18 02:13 PM

ah, as with most things lol

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 02:13 PM

you can check by checking the memebers and filtering for admin - Larrain has a little crown

dodo721 08-Aug-18 02:14 PM

how dainty

@everyone can I just remind y'all as well that we need your stuff for your pages on the website. ASAP cuz our designer needs it to start designing!

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 02:19 PM

that's a bit vague. What exactly do you need?

dodo721 08-Aug-18 02:20 PM

I mentioned it earlier in more detail. let me find it and copy paste

"we're looking at the province pages for each province on the website. Each one will contain some text about the province, some screenshots / images, a link to their DC forum and a link to the recruitment page (there will be one recruitment page and u select ur provinces in the form), plus any other content u want on the page within reason. if u can come up with what u want on your pages that would be good"

dodo721 08-Aug-18 02:28 PM

We just need to start getting the content that we want on the new website together basically, as our designer needs to design around the content. so i'll ask for more stuff later down the line probably as well as it gets developed. nothing massive tho, the writeup for ur pages is probs the most i'll ask for at once, mainly just soem pretty screenshots and pictures]

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 02:42 PM

Can we have recruitment forms on the individual province pages for that particular province, like the current website has? That's been extremely useful in the past as a single location to give people info and allow them to join without having to be redirected somewhere else

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 02:43 PM

That would be useful. I guess you could also have a dedicated page that has all the links as well.

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 02:43 PM

Yeah

The current system has a dedicated recruitment page with the drop-downs for province selection, and each individual province page has a form that sends the application to that province directly

dodo721 08-Aug-18 02:45 PM

The current plan is for one recruitment page that has a section of the form to choose which provinces to apply for, and when submitted it will submit directly to the selected provinces

but it makes more sense to have one recruitment page, because people will want to click the big "recruit me here" button

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 02:45 PM

Yeah, but that's not super helpful when doing a recruitment drive for a single province, then you'll have to redirect people to there and hope that they'll pick your province in the drop-down

Having a dedicated recruitment page as you said makes sense, I'm asking for an additional form on each province page that just sends applications to that province

dodo721 08-Aug-18 02:47 PM

its true, but conversely i think it would be good to make sure people are aware of the other provinces and options on there

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 02:47 PM

It's something I'd very much like to have for Morrowind, personally

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 02:48 PM

Provinces have total control over what they want out of PR so go for it.

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 02:48 PM

People will be aware that the other provinces exist by virtue of the site that they're on

There can be a link at the bottom of the individual forms to the general recruitment form, for people who are interested in other provinces

dodo721 08-Aug-18 02:49 PM

The problem is having multiple forms generates a lot of confusion because people dont know which one to apply for. what might be a better idea is being able to link people to the recruitment form with your province automatically selected

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 02:50 PM

I don't think it generates a lot of confusion

I link people this page and it's pretty clear that this form is for joining Morrowind: https://beyondskyrim.org/projects/morrowind/

Rob Wilson

Morrowind: The Star-Wounded East - Beyond Skyrim

Venture to Morrowind, a vast and alien land that has suffered greatly at the hands of fate. Lose yourself in the complicated politics of the plotting Houses of the Dunmer, discover the strange and beautiful life that makes its home in the east, or uncover the secret

dodo721 08-Aug-18 02:51 PM

yes, but some people apply on both. i myself applied thru both forms because i didnt know which one to use at first, and others from the community server ask about it in the server or PM me and others quite frequently

Hannes821 08-Aug-18 02:52 PM

hellow everyone

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 02:53 PM

I think that's more because the website forms are currently not super polished and kind of all over the place

Hannes821 08-Aug-18 02:53 PM

so, since this chat was done to reflect our council

everyone not in the council has to go

there was never a decision changing this

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 02:53 PM

We've already tabled that discussion, I think

Hannes821 08-Aug-18 02:54 PM

not completely.

sadly-

dodo721 08-Aug-18 02:54 PM

in terms of how you guys want to recruit, its up to u ofc. but the website is shared between all provinces so all provinces will have the same systems for it. my main concern is that we want people to be aware of the option of working for other provinces, for working on multiple if they want

1

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 02:54 PM

Of course, that's why I suggested a link at the bottom of individual forms to the general one

Hannes821 08-Aug-18 02:54 PM

its cool. the webteam became active after some input today from me

i hope we can see it done soonish

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 02:56 PM

My point is, it's very useful for PR purposes to have a single link for a province that can both give people information about that province and directly allow them to apply

The current website does this, and it's my favourite thing about it

dodo721 08-Aug-18 02:58 PM

Ok, I'll talk with the designer about it. we could have a big "APPLY HERE" button on the province page that leads to the general form with your province selected and ready to go. that's what its like in the current plan and it's effectively ur own form

from a design point of view it just makes everything neater, which reduces a bit of confusion, and makes the option of multi provinces available too

or, we have the general form with your province selected emebedded in ur page

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 03:03 PM

If we have the general form embedded in the page with our province selected, can we have all the other province options disappear on that particular form?

dodo721 08-Aug-18 03:05 PM

yes we could, but thats what im personally wandering is a good idea

if we did we might as well make it its own form

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 03:09 PM

My main concern is this: Let's say Morrowind does a big PR push, releases a trailer or something and says that they're looking for applicants. Then they link their page to get people to apply. If all the boxes are there able to be checked, a potential applicant could just go and check all the boxes because they might think it would give them a greater chance of being accepted. Then all provinces get this person's application, meaning that the province who did the recruitment push might get people who originally got drawn to the project because of something they did taken by, say, Cyrodiil, because there's no way of Cyrodiil knowing that they originally applied for Morrowind. (edited)

dodo721 08-Aug-18 03:12 PM

Ok, I understand you better now. I still think making sure that people arent blind to the other options is a concern too. How about we keep the general form with your province ticked, but have an alert that pops up first to remind people to tick what you're interested in and not to tick them all for higher chances?

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 08-Aug-18 03:13 PM

Is there anyway we could have them rank their choice of Province? Then at least we would know who they were applying to, and if one of the lower projects really wanted them, they could ask the ranked project first?

^^^ Not techy savy.

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 03:14 PM

I don’t get why we need to massively over complicate this.

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 03:15 PM

I'd still like to have the form on the province page, but I think a link at the bottom of this form saying "Interested in a different province or in joining more than one? Go to our general recruitment form here"

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 03:15 PM

If people are on a province page it’s because they like the province so why not give them the Janice to sign up there. If they want to join BS in general they’ll spot the generic ‘join us’ tab at the top of he page.

2

Meglos (Morrowind) 08-Aug-18 03:15 PM

I'd give people the Janice any day :P

dodo721 08-Aug-18 03:16 PM

yeah alright, i didnt mean to extend the convo that far, i was just voicing my concerns.

Hannes821 08-Aug-18 03:51 PM

@Bellatrix has a good point there. lets get moving with this!

Bellatrix 08-Aug-18 04:01 PM

Both provinces I’m involved with will probably be quite slow to do this but I am a huge fan of keeping things simple and achievable. Mission creep and over ambition kills projects.

1

AlassinSane 08-Aug-18 05:10 PM

I want "Give them the Janice" to become the PR team's new motto

Larrian (Morrowind) 09-Aug-18 01:22 AM

Tbh I agree with Meglos here

dodo721 10-Aug-18 06:21 PM

I'm sure you'll be soon aware of Linton's ping, but it's caused a mess for the moderators and others to clean up and left us having to mute the outpost. Could @Cyrodiil please have a word with him. Linton's messages have had to be moderated there before, which several dev's have as well, but coupled with a pointless @ everyone to over 5000 people caused a huge ruckus and is hurting our member count too.

Many devs are voicing concerns over the image it is giving to both our audience and important people for collaboration or PR on there.

AlassinSane 10-Aug-18 06:29 PM

Also to note, though, it's not just the isolated scenario of that ping (which he's apologised for many times already) but the fact that he keeps pulling these little jokey stunts which are funny to him and a section of his friends, but not to the majority who see it and are pinged by it. Whether it's seen by 6k fans, our membership of devs and newbies, or our more important contacts of external modders and youtubers, it's the fact that these little slip-ups keep happening from only him.

dodo721 10-Aug-18 07:07 PM

I have just learned that the ARG that everyone was tagged for wasn't related to anything either, it was just done randomly. I would like to confirm how that happened, because while posting jokey PR stuff occasionally on April 1st and stuff is fine, tagging everyone for something that doesn't have any meaning to it either isn't helping anyone, and causes a big load of hassle for our moderators just for an inside joke.

Hannes821 11-Aug-18 02:06 AM

First of all, @AlassinSane does not belong in this chat. Secondly the video team is no official team of BS, its a hobby project that was meant to help BS PR. thirdly, instead of helping the 2 active members of BS PR, you build a rivaling team and kept it seperate, which is kind of hostile. fourthly, even the official BS PR chat has no seat in the council and by that no seat in this chat. i dislike having many jokes too, but the council is not the place to talk about an inner-cyrodiil problem, alassin. Apart from that, it seems that you fought this conflict before inside Cyro and people did not agree to you; Now you extend this noises on the PAN BS level. it is time to bring order back to this place. you must be removed from this chat, and if Lasur is really annyoing, that is the job for the discord moderators in the pan server; not you.

i should elaborate on point 3: so far, there has been zero support for our PR from the video team, they just did their own video projects instead of cooperating; Which kind of is sad and makes me angry, hanging in PR asking for new people and ideas constantly since i moved there; and then you suck these people up and do your own agenda.

Hannes821 11-Aug-18 03:12 AM

Also one thing to note: the proposal for a new pr team held nothing new except the idea to exchange leadership there. All other ideas we had followed already a year. But this was only based on the assumption that the teams influence would hinder output because of restrictive management and limited time capacity. All of this are wild assumptions and wrong, as you can only have if you never worked yourself actively in the beyond Skyrim publicity team before. The reason for us doing slow is that we do it with 2 active people! And arguably we Invest a lot of time and push and encourage new ideas regularly. So this was a completely wrong analysis of the situation, and wrong implications. And instead of working together on a respectful and cooperative level, they build a random server, run internal recruiting and pull all attention away from bs pr. This is not only counter productive, it is also disrespectful. I know John is a great person, and it was not his plan to stay engaged in pr as active developer and director of BM. But somebody clearly thought they would be great managers and awesome enough not even to bother with the regular team, the members and our rules.

If you really want to do bs pr good, help us boost recruitment. There has never been even a single idea turned down yet or slowed. And they all get a respectful treatment with rob, as he is not only professionally a manager but also proves this every day in many teams since years

So are we continuing to split ourselves between activists or are we going back to a working mode with high ethics and respect and cooperation?

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 03:56 AM

Starting at the top of this, I assume that Linton has been spoken to about last nights goings on and that they (Cyrodiil) are happy that this (or something like this) will not happen again. Moving on to Hannes's comments :) The Video team is not an official team, but an off-shoot of the PR team I don't see any hostility between the Video and PR teams The PR team does not have a Council Seat I disagree that the incidents of last night should not be spoken about here. I am happy if it is dealt with internally but that should not preclude us from discussing it I cannot comment on @AlassinSane 's intentions as I am not her I agree with @Hannes821 that the PR proposal at it stands at the moment boils down to a simple change of leadership which is not what was proposed. I am not blaming anyone for this, it is just what has happened. Things evolve naturally in large organisations and that is what has happened in this case. I do not blame @dodo721 or @AlassinSane for this Thank you for your kind words @Hannes821 we will continue to explore avenues as a team to move PR forward including videos (edited)

1

AlassinSane 11-Aug-18 04:35 AM

I'm sorry? I don't quite understand how John raising concern about a department director's public behaviour and me adding elaboration to it has turned into a personal agenda critique on my involvement in PR, but there we have it. Firstly, I was invited here by Larrian when he learned of my leadership in Videos. Perhaps that wasn't the most pleasant thing to say in someone's face. Secondly, by definition, aren't we all hobby projects? The AU and AF are not provincial creations with released products in mind so are they not also a "help" to PR and have no place here either? (Note: Rhetorical, I know that they do) Thirdly, everything you have accused me of to do with Videos has been done by John. I do not know why you believe this, why you're throwing it at me, or why you're using me to create a sudden subject change. John created Videos with Enheduanna. I took over little over a month ago when they asked me to since they didn't have enough time left over for it. Not much has happened since than since I was unexpectedly indisposed too.

This was not about "many jokes" since I have no issue with jokes of any kind, what I took issue with is when it is something that disrupts and affects opinions across our memberbase and our fanbase. Please do not take assumption of events that you were not there for. Yes, a similar objection was raised in Cyrodiil by myself and another, but that was to address a singular incident and issues related to Cyrodiil's workflow alone. That's why it was spoken of only in Cyrodiil. John raised this issue here because it affects all of BS; not just Cyrodiil. My "noise" has not been raised by me, here. John brought forward his concerns, and I added detail to it. I am not here to cause "noise" or speak about issues unrelated to me. Kicking me out is your idea of bringing order to a chaos that has unfolded because I said one thing in this chat, to a topic that I knew concerned me too? I am a moderator in the community outpost server, and have been for a while. Check before accusing, please. You are doing here what you are chastising me for doing. Complaining about one department when no one here has any relation to it. John and I are in Videos; you and Rob are in PR. If you have an issue about collaboration and communication, communicate about it to the leads of the Videos project. The subject of Linton, however, does have relevance here since his public behaviour affects all of the leads and devs from all teams. Sucking people up for my own agenda? OK. Why are you hinging everything on me? Videos was John's movement. If you had been paying any attention to what he's said in public channels over the months, you'd know that it's always been his intention to merge Videos with PR. Everything that you're basing your complaint on. This has been a massive derailing from one concern that was not addressed, and something of an attack on me based on presumption alone. Is this really how this council conducts itself?

dodo721 11-Aug-18 05:55 AM

Righty, so I just woke up to all this. First off, it was 2am last night when all the shenanigans went down so I want to apologize if I across too harshly in my complaint. Moderating a rogue ping at 2am is not pleasant! @Hannes821 the video project was me and Enheduanna's idea, Alassin has only taken over in the last month, so those comments are for me not her. The video project was set up separately not for any hostile reason, more because it was a very spur of the moment idea and neither me nor Enhheduanna at the time were in PR. Alassin is right, it has always been my intention to merge it with PR. It isn't sucking people up for it's own agenda by any means. The proposal wasn't meant to be an attack on anyone involved in PR, and in fact there has been a recruitment wave for it: around 7 new members have been recruited from it, i believe. I overestimated I believe how active the PR department was meant to be, and so thought dedicated leadership would help it create more projects for promotion. However from my continued involvement it seems that it's current level of activity is the desired one. I want to make clear that the PR department, and @Hannes821 and @Robcbwilson specifically, have done a great job, starting the newsletter and spotlight. I never questioned the benefit of these or the effort you guys put in to making them happen, and I am thankful for it. If you think this proposal was one made in error from me not having been around here, then I apologize. I went through with it because I checked it with people who had been around longer and they supported the idea, so I tried to cover my bases. I didn't mean to create any havoc. @Hannes821 if the video project really bothers you this much, then join our meeting today where we are discussing how to go forward, and we can talk about the relationship to PR and how/if you want them to merge as I do.

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 05:59 AM

There seem to be a few things going on. With the lasur thing last night, I’m not entirely sure what happened as it was overnight for me but it looks like he’s apologised on multiple channels. Obviously we’ve mentioned it in lead chat but I can’t garuntee something won’t happen again.

The second is about who should be in this chat. I assume @AlassinSane was accidentally added to this rather than director chat and that should be fixed.

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And then there’s the PR stuff and TBH I don’t have a scooby doo what’s going on.

dodo721 11-Aug-18 06:03 AM

I think a lot of the PR issues have been blown out of proportion, and I feel responsible for that. I wanted to do new projects in PR but I did not approach it as tactfully as I should have done and have caused a lot of drama because of that, and have not had time to deal with it from becoming lead of BM. So in terms of that drama, I will take responsibility and for the most part withdraw from managing or pushing for these projects, as all I really seem to have done is cause another source of argument. I am not an experienced lead and so I shouldn't have taken it on to begin with, so I apologize for all the havoc

I will continue to manage the video project that I started to get it to a stage where it is properly set up or decided in whatever way first though, I don't want to just leave

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Aug-18 06:11 AM

Why is AlassinSane not allowed here? I added her because she is the PR Lead, the previous PR Lead (Rob) had a position on the Council before he became a lead in Elsweyr and when he wasn't one on Morrowind

Why is it any different for her?

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 06:13 AM

The PR dept isn’t a council position.

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Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Aug-18 06:13 AM

But it used to be

Why isn't it now

And if it isn't, it should be

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 06:13 AM

I might be wrong but it hasn’t ever been.

There was a massive row about it at the time.

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Aug-18 06:14 AM

I seem to recall that it was, though I took could be wrong

Of course there was

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 06:14 AM

There always is

Let me try and dig out the thread. But yeah the PR dept was very specifically set up not to have a council seat because everyone was worried it was being use as a mechanism to get onto the council.

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Aug-18 06:15 AM

I don't feel as though people care that much about the Council

Like

Getting in, I mean

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 06:17 AM

Think this is the one https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/10976-changes-to-the-pr-department/

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Aug-18 06:17 AM

This is ancient tbh

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 06:18 AM

Yep. But it wasn’t ever changed.

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Aug-18 06:19 AM

And if it's brought up again then it'll cause another shitstorm, because nothing here can change without people deciding that it's an amendment to a religious text (edited)

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 06:21 AM

I am still the PR Lead btw, I have not been replaced by anyone

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Aug-18 06:22 AM

Then what is Alassin then?

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 06:23 AM

Leading the video project

AlassinSane 11-Aug-18 06:24 AM

I'm the lead for BS Video, taking over from John. Currently transitioning. It would be useful to be able to contact other leads here but if no one wants that, then OK.

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Aug-18 06:24 AM

Okay so were any of the PR reforms put into action? (edited)

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 06:26 AM

This is probably worth talking about a bit more. There doesn’t seem to be anything on the PR server but then there seem to be loads of new PR servers doing different things (I’m not on any of them) so it all seems a bit fractured. And presumably explains a lot of what’s just been posted here too.

AlassinSane 11-Aug-18 06:27 AM

Just the one.

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Aug-18 06:27 AM

Yes because no one took the PR reforms seriously

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 06:27 AM

The actual PR server - unless there are locked channels is really quiet?

AlassinSane 11-Aug-18 06:27 AM

yep

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 06:28 AM

So why make a new server and not use a channel in there? From the outside it looks like a right dogs breakfast.

AlassinSane 11-Aug-18 06:28 AM

to cover all the splinters: There's BS:PD, the main PR server. BS Videos server, and all the web design stuff is in a group chat of 6 people.

Bit too big for one channel, I think was the reason for its formation

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 06:29 AM

But there aren’t any splinters. You don’t just randomly get to make new groups without it being a council decision so this all comes under PR....?

Are you saying there’s a load of new BS teams half of us don’t know about or is it all still PR?

AlassinSane 11-Aug-18 06:32 AM

There's one new team that you do know of. Videos. I've announced it here before. We haven't made it in the shadows. The web design group has also been explained that it's a group chat every time that it's been mentioned. I don't lead that one though, ask Rob or John.

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 06:33 AM

Right so that needs a council vote if it’s not coming under PR anymore.

If it’s just a sub dept of PR that’s like writing is in a province so isn’t anything to do with the council but a new formal team is.

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 06:34 AM

It is not a new team

It is a subset of PR

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 06:34 AM

This is what’s confusing me. People seem to think it’s different things? Or am I just really dumb?

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 06:35 AM

LOL, it is just confusing

dodo721 11-Aug-18 06:35 AM

OK so I can explain the formation of it as its all a bit messy

The Video Project was formed early on by me and Eneduanna. At the time I had just suggested the idea and wanted to work on it and was not a lead of any kind; i didn't actually know that the council existed. It got a lot of support so it went through

From the moment I heard of PR they were made aware and the video project is currently a more independent offshoot of PR, but my plans were to merge it fully into the PR department

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 06:37 AM

That was always my understanding as well

Get it moving, merge it back

dodo721 11-Aug-18 06:37 AM

^ yup

We've had leadership issues meaning we havent made much progress, Enheduanna made me lead of BM (yay) but I have struggled to lead both, while Enheduanna has had irl issues and has been away, so leadership has been struggling to stay present. Alassin was asked to take on the role to help boost activity however irl issues came up for her at the moment she took it on

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 06:40 AM

But it should be stressed, that is leadership of the project

Not leadership of PR

dodo721 11-Aug-18 06:40 AM

^ yes

dodo721 11-Aug-18 06:54 AM

The video project is having a meeting today to discuss its direction. We'll put PR merge on top of the agenda

1shoedpunk 11-Aug-18 10:30 AM

Okay, so to clarify @here - there is no new department. The video team is a part of PR and is subject to the current PR leads' leadership. In addition, the PR team on its own does not have a seat on the council. Who are the current leads of PR?

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Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 10:31 AM

My understanding is it’s as it’s always been so @Robcbwilson YOTB and Jaberkaty

1shoedpunk 11-Aug-18 10:32 AM

@Robcbwilson is that correct?

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 10:33 AM

Yes, correct on both counts.

My seat on the Council is from Elsweyr rather than PR

1shoedpunk 11-Aug-18 10:34 AM

Okay so, no offense, but even if this isn't technically a council chat, @AlassinSane isn't the lead of a recognized Beyond Skyrim project and unless that changes either via promotion or Council vote to incorporate the video project, then she and anyone else that doesn't hold a leadership role should not be in here

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So if we want to have a vote, that's fine, Video can submit a proposal outlining the goals and what they plan to do. If PR wants to name her a lead then that's fine too.

dodo721 11-Aug-18 10:35 AM

I think department director is better suited as it is subset to PR anyway

1shoedpunk 11-Aug-18 10:35 AM

This isn't officially just a council chat so I don't see anything wrong with the PR lead being in here anyway

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 10:35 AM

The video project will never be a separate entity

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1shoedpunk 11-Aug-18 10:35 AM

But if someone just isn't a lead then they should not be in this chat full stop

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 10:35 AM

Alassinsane is not a PR Lead

1shoedpunk 11-Aug-18 10:36 AM

We do have a department director chat

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 10:37 AM

That’s what we never cleared up the other day. I mean Katie has never been in this chat cos it was council chat - rob always had been as he was a Morrowind province lead and then elswhyr. So we could make a separate chat for leads but TBH director chat already covered that perfectly.

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 10:38 AM

Is everyone in this chat on the Council anyway?

1shoedpunk 11-Aug-18 10:39 AM

I think so

who is an @Administrator

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 10:39 AM

Hayden and Mindmonkey?

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 10:40 AM

Larrian and megalos. We covered this the other day too. Nago was tidied up then so he's not in this char or the DC council forum anymore

you can actually check in the server settings under members and then administrator

1shoedpunk 11-Aug-18 10:41 AM

@Meglos (Morrowind) @Larrian (Morrowind) Please make sure that Alassin is in the department_directors channel but removed from here

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Aug-18 10:42 AM

Will do

Done

1shoedpunk 11-Aug-18 10:43 AM

Okay, thank you. Then the issues with PR can be sorted out either internally within PR or, if Video really wants to propose a new project, we can look at the proposal. Right now there's a huge overlap of what they're planning to do vs what PR would be doing with video so I don't know how that happened

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 10:43 AM

It will be sorted internally

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 10:43 AM

I still don't understand what actually happened

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 10:43 AM

It was a miscommunication

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 10:43 AM

I mean it sounds like at least some of BS think there are two rival PR depts. operating?

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 10:44 AM

It was never its own thing, it was always part of PR

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 10:45 AM

Can we do a check before adding people here in future. That was horrible

Robcbwilson 11-Aug-18 10:46 AM

Yes, it surely was

Hannes821 11-Aug-18 02:09 PM

great, thanks for sorting it out. this chat is now only for council people as it should be. the lasur - allassin thing should be managed internally, we all agree. and the PR team indeed needs people. I will do now promotion outside BS myself to make sure this happens, and make sure this time they join the correct discord. By the way, i have no problems with focusing all teams on this very discord, but i am not the one for the decision. Rob and Katy are PR leads. And its good we bring in many people for video and web and social media and graphics and text; so we can focus all skills and capacity at the official place as it should be.

thank you very much again for sorting this out!

Bellatrix 11-Aug-18 02:21 PM

Oh that sounds really positive. So glad this is all sorted out.

dodo721 11-Aug-18 02:22 PM

hey guys, so the video project has had the meeting and thoroughly discussed the problems that have come up. We've made some decisions about the project and how we'll run from now on: - Lore videos are to be cut. They are too big a project with not enough need and not enough support to manage. They will be put on ice for later should anyone ever want to pick it up again, but in the mean time they are to be cut. - Lead roles are to be broken down. Just managing recruitment videos with a small team doesn't need so much management, and the formal set up we established has lead to misconceptions about the Video Project. Instead we shall be responsible for keeping tabs on progress and communicating with PR and the council, but there will be no formal lead. Everyone in the meeting was happy with this decision to tone this down from a full scale "project" to a small group effort. - Jobs have been given to people to start progress on the recruitment videos again. - In terms of our relationship with PR: We are and always will be subset to PR, but obviously that hasnt been made clear enough. The former "leads" for the video will take on the responsibility of keeping PR updated, and ofc all PR members are leads are welcome to be on the server, and most are already. Overall the meeting went really well, everyone was in agreeance and optimistic. We all agreed drastically toning down the scale of the project was a good move. That was the conclusion of the meeting

Hannes821 11-Aug-18 02:48 PM

thanks for letting us know here again!

@dodo721 so the active topic of the team is now "preparations of recruitment videos " ?

i am pinning PR plans and suggestions in the strategies channel

i would be happy to know about and ofc work together if you want, we can talk there

dodo721 11-Aug-18 04:02 PM

Yes that is the plan. Everything is underway with it, so I'll keep you updated with progress @Hannes821

It doesn't need any extra assistance for now but thanks for offering, and I'll let you know if that changes!

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Hannes821 11-Aug-18 04:03 PM

small note: me and rob have no access to the PR dep forum lol. i was just about to send recruits there, only to face an empty page. sending a ticket to Xae

https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/forum/605-beyond-skyrim-publicity-department/

it would be good if we can plan things out. its currently one of the "projects" we run together as BS PR. thanks for informing!

dodo721 11-Aug-18 04:09 PM

It is pretty much planned out, I ran everything by Rob in the pr server and he approved it all. You can read thru the stuff on the video server itself too

Hannes821 11-Aug-18 04:55 PM

yes cool i was just curious for the planning channel, not so much how you do it but more to document everything at one place so it doesnt get messy and chaotic

dodo721 12-Aug-18 05:23 AM

well we're basically writing template scripts rn, then will move on to writing out the full scripts while graphics and animations of any kind are prepared, then va will be recorded and editing done to finalise it

I put up a more detailed plan of who's doing what in the video server @Hannes821 , if u want to copy/paste that into the PR server or whatever. i just dont want to fill up the project lead chat with it

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Hannes821 12-Aug-18 05:24 AM

yes, wasnt meant to be talked here

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Bellatrix 12-Aug-18 05:26 AM

are the two servers going to be merged? It still seems odd having it as a separate server rather than a few sub-channels

dodo721 12-Aug-18 05:27 AM

we talked about it and decided to keep the video server, seeing as there's a lot of discussion and content already filled up in it. but it will only last until the recruitment videos are done then it will be dissolved

basically the whole project has been reduced to a temporary set up now

Bellatrix 12-Aug-18 05:29 AM

awesome. and what happened with the last round of recruitment? There was some talk of doing more to the wiki - did that get enough people to actually be a thing pr does cos that would be super useful

Robcbwilson 12-Aug-18 05:30 AM

We got quite a few people for that

dodo721 12-Aug-18 05:30 AM

there were quite a few people recruited, and I think Enodoc is largely in charge of them. we do have several other members too waiting for projects iirc

Bellatrix 12-Aug-18 05:31 AM

but that's not a separate server? I was just wondering because I haven't really seen anything that indicated stuff was happening on the PR srver

Robcbwilson 12-Aug-18 05:32 AM

I don't know what Enodoc does with the wiki people

dodo721 12-Aug-18 05:33 AM

The only separate server im aware of is the video project, but the wiki people are possibly part of a UESP dev server (i assume there is one)

I know Enodoc wants to keep everything in PR (he was in favour of videos merging servers too), so he wont be doing stuff behind the scenes

Bellatrix 12-Aug-18 05:48 AM

It's probably a good idea to get every speciality to have a quick chat in the appropriate channel on the PR server to go over their short and medium term plans

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Hannes821 12-Aug-18 10:30 AM

we cannot have enough channelised communication

good

as from what i saw, it seems that most wiki pages need some articles

i wrote up things for the dev and public vid, but ultimately the idea was to have PR people for it. can we somehow handle it like sending one PR wiki writer to each team and then let them work closely with the teams, also waiting for teams permissions etc? because realistically, the teams are busy with dev work.

so teams could check each article and be in charge, and still we see action and no delay of their devs

dodo721 12-Aug-18 05:09 PM

I would be in favour of that for BM @Hannes821 , i think it was even something i mentioned in the original proposal. We wouldn't be able to contribute much yet as our writing lead and BM mastermind Enhe is absent with irl issues, but i wouldnt mind a wiki member sitting on the team

Hannes821 12-Aug-18 05:11 PM

the 3 wiki members we have also like the idea.

i guess if it was your interest, we could ask them if one of them wants to go to BM, so this would be sorted out already

dodo721 12-Aug-18 05:11 PM

sure

Hannes821 12-Aug-18 05:11 PM

okay, let me ask!

Bellatrix 13-Aug-18 01:20 AM

For cyrodiil our wiki priority is the uksp Bruma pages. It’s basically a stub right now.

Hannes821 13-Aug-18 03:07 AM

well, they offer to work with you. go to BS PD wiki channel and announce that you welcome somebody.

BM John and Atmora me did so last night

dodo721 13-Aug-18 06:55 PM

Craftian wants to start whatever procedure there is for complaining about a member for removal. Do we have a formal procedure beyond the vague guide of the constitution?

ub3rman123 13-Aug-18 06:56 PM

In the past it's typically been whoever their lead is removes them from their project.

dodo721 13-Aug-18 06:56 PM

Worth noting the member in question is Stranger, who is not in any province but in PR

ub3rman123 13-Aug-18 06:56 PM

Ergo, person in PR would remove them.

dodo721 13-Aug-18 06:57 PM

so just direct him to complain to PR lead then? constitution says it requires a unanimous vote but it doesnt look like thats the case

ub3rman123 13-Aug-18 06:57 PM

Pretty sure the unanimous vote is for removing a lead.

Anyways though, from my limited experience with the guy, I haven't seen anything from him but pointless petty contributions to drama.

dodo721 13-Aug-18 06:58 PM

he's willing to give ideas and stuff but hes got a massive issue with passive agression

ub3rman123 13-Aug-18 06:58 PM

WHere is that darn charter...

dodo721 13-Aug-18 06:58 PM

i am friends with him but can totally agree that he isnt a great team member

https://beyondskyrim.org/about/the-beyond-skyrim-constitution/

Joseph Crowell

The Beyond Skyrim Constitution - Beyond Skyrim

The Constitution codifies all of the unwritten conventions that in the past have dictated how Beyond Skyrim is run. It should still be run in pretty much the same way, but now it's going to be out in the open and have a method of due process. This will make the leadership in ...

ub3rman123 13-Aug-18 06:59 PM

Ah geez it's so long.

dodo721 13-Aug-18 06:59 PM

ye, look for 5.6

ub3rman123 13-Aug-18 06:59 PM

We have tried to talk to him, right?

I'll talk to him if I have to. That bit in the video server was uncalled for.

dodo721 13-Aug-18 07:00 PM

Atmora has, multiple times, before he agreed to leave. Allassin talked to him in the video server

after Alassin called him out and he apologised, he then PMd Craftian a rant

ub3rman123 13-Aug-18 07:02 PM

Yep, there it is under 5.6.4, the 'Being a dick' section.

dodo721 13-Aug-18 07:02 PM

d i s r e p u t e

ub3rman123 13-Aug-18 07:02 PM

No way to give him another chance? Let him cool down and drop the hammer if this keeps happening.

I don't know how long this has kept happening.

It seems to mostly be between him and Atmora in particular, but I don't want to see people consistently airing laundry like that.

dodo721 13-Aug-18 07:03 PM

the drama between him and Atmora leads has been since he joined Atmora. we need to wait for Crafitan to submit evidence and "formally complain" i guess in any case.

ub3rman123 13-Aug-18 07:04 PM

Yes, I would like to see the rap sheet first. My impressions thus far are biased because I've only seen his laundry airings.

dodo721 13-Aug-18 07:04 PM

I can warn him that he's getting himself in hot water, but tbh I know stranger, and I know he wouldn't stop

he had the same chance with Atmora but decided to keep going because he wanted to rant

ub3rman123 13-Aug-18 07:05 PM

Give him the warning and make sure he's aware of the consequences, then.

disclaimer probably wait for someone who's actually read the whole book of a charter

dodo721 13-Aug-18 07:06 PM

I think we should wait for the evidence and complaint that Crafti delivers

then the council can decide what its worthy of

1shoedpunk 13-Aug-18 08:45 PM

Generally it's frowned upon to kick someone off a team on the first offence unless it's really really bad

If you do they can come to the council with a complaint of being kicked off without just cause

A continued pattern, especially ignoring leads is a stronger case

Robcbwilson 14-Aug-18 12:59 AM

I can speak to him once we have the evidence to hand

HannesDettmann 14-Aug-18 02:59 AM

Sucks to hear that he started a DM rant after apologizing... What a stupid move

I would also prefer to give him fair warning... But let's see the evidence first and then decide about that. The content on the PR server was very telling though

dodo721 14-Aug-18 04:31 AM

It isn't his first offence @1shoedpunk , but its the first one that hasnt been able to be dealt with. I agree though, but I guess it'll depend on what evidence there is. Craftian is gathering evidence over the period of the year I think, not just the last day

Bellatrix 14-Aug-18 04:48 AM

It might still be worth saying ‘this has to stop now or you’re out’ and if it happens again ban him. It hasn’t happened for ages but council investigations take up a lot of dev time and can get quite traumatic so making sure he has no reasonable grounds of appeal due to unfair treatment seems worth an extra couple of weeks.

Bellatrix 14-Aug-18 04:55 AM

Well unless have multiple existing examples of leads already saying that. If you do then that’s different. But it sounds like this is the first time banning has come up?

dodo721 14-Aug-18 05:04 AM

He's not been banned before, but he did agree to leave Atmora with the leads on his own terms. I'm not in favour of banning first, but I'm just saying we should wait to see what Craftian submits first before making a call

but I agree that i'd rather warn him

Hannes821 14-Aug-18 09:17 AM

well, he did attack anathem before, me before, other writers before. i am tired of it and i dont think we will formally complain against him. But maybe note that he never really contributed anything for us, but mocked people, but then never gave the constructive criticism he was asked for. I heard (maybe roughly) similar things from elsweyr. To say the worst, he is a poor writer and is writing teacher in AU. I dont have any hard feelings, nor has he, but he told me he had problems with other people etc. That was also why we hadnt been happy to have him on spotlight as "atmoran writer". but then again, not many people applied to be covered in the spotlight in our excel chart, but thats a different story. We dont want to fight with him at all, its just tiresome and he will discuss himself off. But we actually would like not to work with him, and i can see that he might be damaging to whereever he is. I think this is now Robs/Katies decision if they still want to have him or not.

his point why becoming a teacher was literally "because of being less active" (never having written a decent text before, he wasnt active earlier either, but anyways)

and thats why i was kinda suprised when everybody was sad he said "goodbye" here in dev server. the loudest people get the most attention

i mean, it was a common move of him to be normal and attack again, not just in atmora, also in the small 5 heads web team etc

i shouldnt have suggested him for pr team, yes i brought more people there, in good faith

on i side note, "removing from BS" should follow the same rule like "joining BS", depending on team membership, no?

so this should really only depend on weither or not he is working well in PR, and there you either have him as BS member, too, or not.

*on a

dodo721 14-Aug-18 09:23 AM

If he left PR he would also leave BS by consequence. The charter does include not working well as grounds for removal

Hannes821 14-Aug-18 09:24 AM

yes, and ultimately team management is not really solved in the charter, charter is only for Pan BS, more or less, with some basic guidelines.

HannesDettmann 14-Aug-18 09:30 AM

he is still a teacher in AU...i would generally agree about him not being the busiest guy. i agreed to having writing being taught at AU under the impression that he would hand in a writing tutorial document to be used for teaching the intricacies of BS writing which I am still waiting for. on the other hand he engages ppl in the writing classroom and reviews their material while giving helpful feedback. so i guess if he leaves PR and therefore BS I would just change his role to "Lecturer" to indicate he is not a BS member anymore. but before I do anything I will wait for craftian's document (edited)

Hannes821 14-Aug-18 09:43 AM

so if he does something valuable, i have no problems with him being here.

but i understand that the things he threw at crafti are very offensive, i saw the texts.

Robcbwilson 14-Aug-18 10:27 AM

If they are offensive then we will have to take some action, wherever it is a warning or a ban. We can’t do anything until we see the evidence

Hannes821 14-Aug-18 12:56 PM

i asked him if he insists on folliwing this, and showing the texts. its his decision, but i suggested him to leave it and ignore him and good.

Hannes821 19-Aug-18 07:08 AM

@Robcbwilson i really have no will to deal with this, but i am shocked. people of my team shared what stranger talked with them in a private group. Well, reacting very inappropriate, emotional, on feedback from 4, 5 people is one thing. With insults. thats one thing. But... In personal messages Stranger talked about murdering people of BS, how incompetent we are; (includes people of my team, Bard and BS directors in general) and if he has to, he would destroy BS in just a few strikes. Might i please ask you to remove his access to any Passwords on PR (if he has some) just in case? as i said, i have no interest even posting all the drama. i just dont want this to get a problem. for me thats enough, i have really no interest in drama here, i just dont want anything bad to happen. oh i actually repeat myself sorry

Robcbwilson 19-Aug-18 07:10 AM

@Hannes821 Stranger never had access to any passwords

Only trusted people have access

Hannes821 19-Aug-18 07:10 AM

okay cool. crafti was afraid things happen.

thank you for the quick confirmation.

Robcbwilson 19-Aug-18 07:10 AM

The only thing he might have is website access

Nope, doesn't have that either

1

Hannes821 19-Aug-18 07:12 AM

thank you again, and sorry for the inconvenience

Robcbwilson 19-Aug-18 07:12 AM

No problem

If he is making threats against people then he should be removed (edited)

Hannes821 19-Aug-18 07:13 AM

crafti says so, but i was kinda trying to keep things small...

as you think.

Robcbwilson 19-Aug-18 07:14 AM

Normally I would agree

But this sounds serious

Like almost a police matter

Hannes821 19-Aug-18 07:14 AM

yes well in his messages he wrote late at night

and i think he is just a talker

not somebody who does things

but if you want to visit the group i invite you

see yourself if you want to

Robcbwilson 19-Aug-18 07:15 AM

Please

HannesDettmann 19-Aug-18 07:16 AM

i also would like to see that tbh

Larrian (Morrowind) 19-Aug-18 07:16 AM

Honestly same

HannesDettmann 19-Aug-18 07:16 AM

i tried to convince him to not leave BS back then...kind of (edited)

dodo721 19-Aug-18 07:17 AM

I would like to too. Though I know Stranger is more than known for making communist and revolutionary jokes, so I wouldn't take the "murder" part seriously (depending on the context ofc, i havent seen it)

but regardless the other stuff is not good (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 19-Aug-18 07:18 AM

Which is funny because I think he's a conservative

dodo721 19-Aug-18 07:19 AM

idk tbh, but living in Lithuania I wouldn't be surprised, hes got no shortage of anti russian beliefs

Larrian (Morrowind) 19-Aug-18 07:19 AM

Yeah

Can't blame him tbh

dodo721 19-Aug-18 07:21 AM

though i could also totally see him trying to do some sort of sabotage or dramatic action in BS. he is pretty dramatic

Larrian (Morrowind) 19-Aug-18 07:21 AM

100% I could

dodo721 19-Aug-18 07:21 AM

not as dramatic as murder lol but still

Larrian (Morrowind) 19-Aug-18 07:22 AM

Yeah

Hannes821 19-Aug-18 07:30 AM

rob is possibly right, he cant do that much damage,

Robcbwilson 19-Aug-18 07:31 AM

He has no access to PR, no access to any GIT repositories that I know of

Hannes821 19-Aug-18 07:31 AM

i talked a lot with him, like i do with most members, so he might mix stuff up and bring it in a new context on purpose to change the meaning. But i dont provoce him.

i give him very rational reasons and discuss everything extensively with him to make sure we agree kinda

its still annyoing when he doesnt take feedback and insists of being the best. but thats another topic

i think it will be alright. question is now for Rob and Hannes (MM) if this has any impact for their teams or not.

oh he renamed himself as mindpinkey sorry

not mindmonkey

i am out of date lol

Robcbwilson 19-Aug-18 07:33 AM

No impact for me as he is not active on Elsweyr any longer

Hannes821 19-Aug-18 07:34 AM

okay and PR is alright because of what you said previously.

i also invited MP as his AU lead. but i dont expect anything to happen to be honest.

Robcbwilson 19-Aug-18 07:37 AM

He can't cause external damage, he doesn't have the access

He could cause internal damage by taking conversations out of context and publishing them to cause damage

We do not know his intentions aside from the recent angry conversations

Hannes821 19-Aug-18 08:01 AM

yes. all good. up to the teams he is in. nothing big for all of BS to decide on.

Bellatrix 19-Aug-18 08:07 AM

I dunno. Being asked to leave multiple teams and apparently talking about murdering people on BS sounds like exactly what the council should be involved in. I mean I don't even know who he is but from the outside it doesn't sound good / like someone who should be on BS and especially not teaching!

Hannes821 19-Aug-18 08:14 AM

the thing is, when we start talking about Pan BS values, we can easily loose ourselfs in it. but in this case, i would agree. i still dont want to start discussions etc when it might not be necessary. He is BS as long as he is team member somewhere, and his team leads have access to form their own opinion.

HannesDettmann 19-Aug-18 02:17 PM

I would have removed him as a teacher and AU member after discussing it with you...but he was faster

1shoedpunk 19-Aug-18 02:17 PM

I would strongly suggest posting what he said in the council chat. Threats are not okay

And that is incredibly troubling his wording there

Please post anything threatening he's said asap

If he actually threatened to hurt people we need to bring this to the police

Forget just banning him. It's possible what he said before was misinterpreted in which case it's over but we need to see what he said to make that sort of judgment

Robcbwilson 19-Aug-18 02:28 PM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13C7vRTOh2nl_TCd8HA3qzfvPgrCNHicKwN0kNrRuqvg/edit

Submission

This is a formal submission against Stranger, formerly a member of the Atmora and Elsweyr writing teams, current PR/marketing representative as well as a teacher for the Arcane University. Under section 5.6.4 of the Beyond Skyrim Charter, he has behaved in a way that warrant...

Threats are on the last couple of pages

The formal submission part is obviously no longer required

Bellatrix 19-Aug-18 03:03 PM

It probably needs to go on the D.C. chat but honestly that seems like more than enough for a ban.

I get that different teams have different levels of what’s ok and not - heck me and 1shoe don’t always agree and I’m probably a bit too eager with the ban hammer but that seems like a pattern of bad behaviour with no upside which potentially could drive BS people away.

dodo721 19-Aug-18 04:21 PM

Stranger has left all of BS now I think anyway

he left a message in the video server, the only project he was on apart from AU, saying he was leaving

and he's left PR and the video server

I am pretty confident he is not serious about hurting anyone. His comments about "striking down BS" and stuff I can believe he might follow through on, or try too, if he got annoyed, as he is known for overreacting, but the hurting parts I see to be jokes (he does have a language barrier that makes him sound serious or odd sometimes)

Hannes821 19-Aug-18 05:08 PM

He left with a cryptic message that could mean he leaves or he takes some kind of action. Rob got the same message

Well. I think he is just talking. And I am not afraid of him.

I guess he also likes crafti and bard. But he has constant struggle irl in similar fashion, I think he is too busy to care.

HannesDettmann 19-Aug-18 05:18 PM

i think by the "action required" he just means quitting BS...

i could be wrong ofc

Hannes821 19-Aug-18 05:20 PM

Yeah let's hope so. You got this, too

Robcbwilson 20-Aug-18 12:54 AM

He refused to elaborate on the meaning of the message just saying that I would know what it meant

Odd, but not threatening, which sums him up largely

Bellatrix 20-Aug-18 01:07 AM

If it’s stranger6686 he’s at least on some discord servers still because I can find him in a search.

Larrian (Morrowind) 20-Aug-18 02:58 AM

Odd, but not threatening is a perfect descriptor tbh

HannesDettmann 20-Aug-18 03:18 AM

He's still on community outpost and the IB server

ub3rman123 20-Aug-18 06:18 AM

@dodo721 uh, is he still invited to the BS meetup?

dodo721 20-Aug-18 06:19 AM

He is, though I don't think he's coming

HannesDettmann 20-Aug-18 06:21 AM

Wow, him coming would create a very interesting situation... But I also highly doubt it

dodo721 20-Aug-18 06:23 AM

He wasn't disinvited as it's a friendly thing, and most people get on with him as a friend even if he is a pretty poor team worker

But yes, I don't think he's coming regardless

1shoedpunk 20-Aug-18 08:29 AM

I would cancel that meetup

By the way are any of those happening stateside?

dodo721 20-Aug-18 08:52 AM

Cancel the meetup? why?

and no, dont think so, though theres talk of doing one for all the us people

1shoedpunk 20-Aug-18 09:02 AM

I mean you have someone making vague but specific threats and saying that you should know what they mean

I'd be really wary

dodo721 20-Aug-18 09:12 AM

I'm not worried about Stranger, really. I've spoken to him a lot since being in BS, in fact he was the one who got me recruited in the first place, and I know his language can be weird and his jokes dark, which doesn't mix well. Stranger holds grudges against BS but not members, and he's not serious about doing anything actually threatening, he's just emotional and likes the drama. saying "you know what I mean" is just part of his style, i've seen it before and as others have said, its odd, but not threatening

I get the concern but it's nothing that actually translates to real world danger in my eyes. The last meetup he avoided because he'd just been involved in the spotlight argument and didn't want to get into drama. which was silly, because no one was going to be bringing drama with them to the meetup to argue when theyre having a nice time, but in any case it shows he'd rather not get into confrontation over it, let alone do anything dangerous

He's emotional and dramatic, but not a police level danger

ub3rman123 20-Aug-18 04:40 PM

this is, however, totally a good excuse to have it in Malta instead

dodo721 20-Aug-18 04:58 PM

its Bruges mate, we doing waffles

u gotta respect the waffles

ub3rman123 20-Aug-18 05:00 PM

I bet Malta has waffles.

dodo721 20-Aug-18 05:07 PM

Not as good

OG or nothing

Hannes821 21-Aug-18 04:07 AM

he was very nice to me too pretty often, and then very nervous on certain days.

i think it was really just an unstable condition he was in, and the inability for feedback etc. but not a general grief.

i was suprised about his short rants which had been very emotional, because he always behaved like friend.

anyways

Hayden 23-Aug-18 07:09 PM

I mean, we don't have a date set for the BS meetup yet do we? Just kick him from chat and go on as normal?

Hannes821 23-Aug-18 11:55 PM

HannesDettmann 09-Sep-18 06:08 AM

Hey everyone! I have to reduce my BS time for the time being and cut down on responsibilities. For that reason I will step down from my position of AU lead for now and dedicate my remaining time to modelling/modding only. I'll still be present on discord ofc. I agreed with @Hannes821 that he will be in charge of AU. If this causes any problems in terms of council seats or other things please let me know and we'll work something out together.

Bellatrix 09-Sep-18 08:28 AM

Oh that’s a shame. You’ve done an awesome job with the AU!

Robcbwilson 09-Sep-18 08:30 AM

^^

Agreed, the AU has been transformed under your leadership @HannesDettmann

HannesDettmann 09-Sep-18 08:45 AM

thanks guys, that's very nice of you! Hannes has spent a considerable amount of time producing and updating tutorials. I am sure he will do a good job keeping the place running.

Hannes821 09-Sep-18 02:44 PM

@HannesDettmann is great and i am happy to hand the position over if anyone else wants to carry it further!

i am honoured that he asked me

and i hope i can proceed the good work there

thank you again

so i see myself as a temporary admin there and hope that we can still keep everything running, people motivated, expand tutorials and also get many new devs for our teams like we did recently

if not, if somebody else feels like, that is okay with me

HannesDettmann 18-Sep-18 09:18 AM

due to time constraints i stepped back from the position of AU lead...would be a good idea to remove my project lead role on this server as well

(I am unable to remove it myself for some reason)

Meglos (Morrowind) 18-Sep-18 12:16 PM

Alright

dodo721 04-Oct-18 08:31 AM

Hey guys, so I've just announced in the black marsh server that I'm stepping down from director to department lead, eventually to leave BS due to uni time and other new commitments. I'll sort out my roles later today when I'm back home

It's been fun working with everyone over the few months I've been here, and I'll still be following the news that bs puts out with excitement!

Robcbwilson 04-Oct-18 08:33 AM

Sorry to hear that we are losing you, the best of luck for your future

dodo721 04-Oct-18 08:33 AM

Thanks Rob!

Bellatrix 04-Oct-18 01:14 PM

Oh that’s a shame. What’s going to happen with the website? Do we still need the extra test server (or whatever it was)?

Robcbwilson 04-Oct-18 01:21 PM

We will continue to work on the website (myself and Hannes)

If anyone else wants to help, then help would of course be welcome

Bellatrix 04-Oct-18 01:32 PM

But do we need the extra test server right now? Cos I’d prefer not to be paying for it if we don’t.

Robcbwilson 04-Oct-18 01:33 PM

I wasn't aware we were paying for anything extra

Bellatrix 04-Oct-18 01:35 PM

TBH I haven’t checked if it happened / didn’t happen etc but as John is stepping down that’s why I asked what was happening.

Robcbwilson 04-Oct-18 01:36 PM

That is fair, I had no idea there was an additional cost to it

Let's kill it for now, we can continue to work without it for a time and then spin it up when we are really ready if required

Bellatrix 04-Oct-18 01:37 PM

Now I just need someone who knows that to kill and we’re golden.

1

Hannes821 04-Oct-18 04:40 PM

oh, sad. we need good people with positive energy. and 3d and implementation.

wish him the best.

dodo721 04-Oct-18 06:19 PM

Ah thank you for reminding me @Bellatrix , I'll kill it tomorow. Our web dev seems to be MIA anyway so it can be safely removed.

Robcbwilson 05-Oct-18 02:27 AM

Yes, we will get another one as this one hasn’t worked out

Hannes821 06-Oct-18 10:39 AM

first you didnt want to set him a limit because we are a hobby thing and i was pusing too much (like always

) and then we said "okay, please react within a month" (just last week i think) and now we kick him without talking again, spontaneusly? i think its better to have transparent and clear rules and stay consequent... but you are the boss in the web team rob. its up to you.

i dont like such "mood actions" because others can get it teh wrong way

but i do agree ofc, he was a dissappointment

he promised much more, and its unrealistic we hear back from him.

its just a question of style i guess.

Robcbwilson 06-Oct-18 10:59 AM

No one has been kicked out and he has a chance to respond to show he is still interested

I was referring more to the fact that his work hasn't met our expectations so far

Bellatrix 06-Oct-18 12:36 PM

Theres always Xae. We know he's good and he won't vanish either

dodo721 06-Oct-18 12:39 PM

Xae already said no

I've cancelled the thingy @Bellatrix

Bellatrix 06-Oct-18 12:40 PM

Thanks

Hannes821 06-Oct-18 03:07 PM

i think it was clear we gotta move on. and we also have many people just waiting for the opportunity out there. Its just that we need to communicate to them what we expect clearly and then it should run smoothely either way.

1

anyways, all good.

Robcbwilson 07-Oct-18 10:13 AM

@everyone does anyone know what is behind DC closing down?

And also, what are we going to do

Larrian (Morrowind) 07-Oct-18 10:14 AM

I don't know Xae's reasoning, but most projects use DC so infrequently I don't personally see it as an issue.

Bellatrix 07-Oct-18 10:16 AM

We need to archive all the tutorials and I guess any province threads you guys need

but not sure we need to do much apart from that? I mean we don't really use it

Larrian (Morrowind) 07-Oct-18 10:17 AM

Yeah exactly

Bellatrix 07-Oct-18 10:17 AM

Oh crap - we need a copy of all the charters and council chats too

but yeah apart from that not much

Robcbwilson 07-Oct-18 10:19 AM

I know that the forums are pretty much dead, but we will need to back up things like that

dodo721 07-Oct-18 11:39 AM

Maybe make an announcement saying bs is still going too

1

Some people might think this means bs is shutting down too

Robcbwilson 07-Oct-18 11:39 AM

That is an excellent idea

Hannes821 07-Oct-18 03:32 PM

need to update some newsletter things in the template.

Bellatrix 08-Oct-18 02:56 AM

What is the plan for the website cos it’s pretty mission critical now. At a minimum we need a bit of a forum area to act as the old council proposal section and somewhere to archive stuff we need to keep adding to the current version of the BS website and we have less than 3 months to do it.

Hannes821 08-Oct-18 03:21 AM

Its not critical, it's just stagnation because everything was set on one card, one person

Which is why I suggested to have it as open channel in pr server, see devs_only channel

I wanted this all along because I am more optimistic of our colleagues input and afraid of dependency on very few Devs /artists. You see that we have to communicate our state of progress

We did have and do have very processed pictures about how it's supposed to be like

We finished the concept stage with stranger, john, the designer me and Rob like 3 2 months ago

The rest would be adjustments while execution with some feedback loops

Also to let new devs and artists pick up quicker

Bellatrix 08-Oct-18 04:06 AM

Sorry, but what I said above is critical. We need a place to safely store stuff from DC and we need it in time to get everything transferred over before DC closes. So realistically that’s something in place by 1st nov to give us 2 months to copy stuff over or absolute latest 1st dec and only a month. That has to be top priority and anything else right now is a long term goal.

I agree that you should move the web design to the or channel and push it along more but the ongoing website redesign is a separate issue to the immediate problems caused by DCs inline ant closure.

Hannes821 08-Oct-18 04:24 AM

well i think i transformed all (newer) tutorials onto website tutorials

maybe not the very old ones from spectral dragon

but i could ask him if anythig important is ever asked, we are in contact

i am not sure about protocols of old council decisions though

a copy of the charta? i do have my draft suggestion from nearly 2 years ago that deeza wanted to look at in gdrive.

Bellatrix 08-Oct-18 04:28 AM

Charter, pr dept charter, all the council discussions then anything any of the provinces want to keep.

1

dodo721 08-Oct-18 10:42 AM

Kin from the video project has told me he is a web dev, and has several websites

As I'm in the process of leaving I've told him to reach out and I'm not going to be handling it obvs, but worth knowing

Hannes821 08-Oct-18 01:09 PM

I invited him to pr server

And I believe that makes sense and it's a great insurance at this point

Robcbwilson 16-Oct-18 01:47 PM

Is Graystorms a lead anywhere else aside from Elsweyr?

Bellatrix 16-Oct-18 02:23 PM

Not on cyrodiil or Roscrea.

Robcbwilson 16-Oct-18 02:24 PM

Thanks Claire

@ub3rman123 is Graystorms a lead in IB?

ub3rman123 16-Oct-18 02:45 PM

Nope.

Robcbwilson 16-Oct-18 02:46 PM

Thanks!

Hannes821 25-Oct-18 03:57 AM

@Larrian (Morrowind) thank you for administration. @The Old Ye Bard welcome back!

Larrian (Morrowind) 25-Oct-18 03:58 AM

❤

The Old Ye Bard 25-Oct-18 07:51 AM

Some awful & unwarranted things have been said about Elsweyr and me on this server. But I’m here now, so try to behave moving forward.

2

Hannes821 25-Oct-18 03:43 PM

Its good for us if we are complete. Map marker topic. A friend of mine from skyblivion is helping me with the map markers. He has covered already many for his team. Now, there are 255 slots, and I was suggesting to have 20-25 slots reserved per team. Kelretu meant maybe iliac bay should be counted as 2 provinces. At the moment atmora uses 20 slots, I was told cyrodiil uses 8 Roscrea 11. So we might not use all. So if I count all our teams, atmora, black marsh, cyrodiil, elsweyr, iliac bay x2, morrowind, we are at 20 x 7. Then, I would suggest to be inclusive towards external teams like thras, for the love of the community and the players, defining a global Skyrim map atlas. Then we are at 8 X 20 = 160. Skyrim uses around 70 map markers, so 255-230, we have still 25 left just in case. My mate who helps also implemented around 160 makers for skyblivion, it seems doable. agreed to also write a tutorial on how he tweaks it. Do you think that this would be good? Can you maybe ask your teams if 20ish works out per province?

By the way, that also means that we could all use each others map markers and ofc that we don't overwrite each other

Rubaedo 25-Oct-18 03:46 PM

Good call. I'll talk to ZZ about that for BM as well.

Bellatrix 25-Oct-18 03:49 PM

I need to double check Roscrea and cyrodiil.

I guess it depends if we’re having custom markers for every cult. Roscrea might go down a few. But we’re still way under 20 either way

Hannes821 25-Oct-18 03:50 PM

Yes, let me send you the map marker plan for all cults of atmora sine they are the same.

Bellatrix 25-Oct-18 03:51 PM

Also not sure if we can do things like share cult markers with atmora and also the shared assets like the ayleid set is only one slot but multiple provinces so fingers crossed we’ll all be waaay under the limit.

Haha. Should have read you post before hitting send.

Hannes821 25-Oct-18 03:52 PM

You mean form id conflicts?

Ah okay

No worries

Bellatrix 25-Oct-18 03:52 PM

No I mean we can share the same icons maybe.

Hannes821 25-Oct-18 03:52 PM

Bellatrix 25-Oct-18 03:52 PM

Maybe not atmora unless you use assets but the ayleid one could go in assets and only use one slot.

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Oct-18 05:54 PM

Currently Morrowind has a list with 36 needed map markers, but we can try to cut it down a bit if everyone's in favour of having a master BS map marker list

However, I'm not sure why we'd need to leave room for Thras, as they're not part of BS and it could set a precedent for other smaller mods bugging us to be included in the map markers, which could lead to us not having enough room for our own and hence decreasing the overall quality of the project

1shoedpunk 25-Oct-18 06:01 PM

We have a bit over 20 I think

I'll have to take a look when I get home

I think some provinces are going to have more than others and I think we need to agree to use the same ones for caves, ayleid ruins, dwemer ruins, etc

1

That should be a big reduction

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Oct-18 06:03 PM

We were planning on just using vanilla stuff for caves, mines, etc

1shoedpunk 25-Oct-18 06:03 PM

Do the teams have spreadsheets set up at all for their markers?

If not I can make one when I get home

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Oct-18 06:03 PM

We just have a list https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ls6oh7IkxL6NO2k0v3_J01xryZTy1jQtqQneY4Q3uPw/edit?usp=sharing (edited)

Map Marker List

Settlements Blacklight Rootspire Soluthis Silgrad Kragenmoor Kragenmoor Palace St Seryn Narsis Indarys Manse Dres Dibol Mournhold Central Mournhold Climbing Plazas Necrom High Fane Firewatch Telvannis Oad Central Tower Settlement Types Sadrasi/Hlaalu Velothi Settlement Dres S...

1

1shoedpunk 25-Oct-18 06:04 PM

I just requested access

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Oct-18 06:04 PM

Fixed the link

1shoedpunk 25-Oct-18 06:04 PM

I might copy those into a spreadsheet with notes and the vanilla markers so we can figure it out

I've wanted to do a common index for a while

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Oct-18 06:05 PM

Yeah, go ahead

The ones in yellow are just yellow because we don't have concepts for the things they're based off, btw, they're still part of the list

Hannes821 25-Oct-18 06:09 PM

let me give you ours

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cAA_wipHlCAi9uwsH6E2QyMbYjSCgU3n3WX598nwO8o/edit?usp=sharing

Map Marker Plan Atmora

Map Marker Plan Name Symbol vanilla Marker ship / shipwreck Runestone cave dragon site mountain path fort mine tomb dwelling point of interest harbor Sacred Nature Shrine expedition camp Lightho...

added "atmora" so we dont get confused, ignore the vanilla ones above.

so MW, you have a type of settlement and a second unique marker for each location (is it the same spot?), or you have unique locations + generic locations?

Vulcano, we could use that, too if you have it ;-) Red Mountain comes to mind...

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Oct-18 06:26 PM

For the big cities, we'll have a marker with the city's symbol on it at the gate, and a marker for the palace/significant building in that city, like Skyrim did

Hannes821 25-Oct-18 07:28 PM

1shoedpunk 25-Oct-18 08:10 PM

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pL9Jp5dGmvMaaySRsh1Y6HQV9O8h0RXzzdRheyjCT-s/edit#gid=923442999 okay i've added all the ones i have

Common Map Marker Project

Vanilla Map Markers TNAM# 0, None 1, City 2, Town 3, Settlement 4, Cave 5, Camp 6, Fort 7, Nordic Ruins 8, Dwemer Ruin 9, Shipwreck 10, Grove 11, Landmark 12, Dragon Lair 13, Farm 14, Wood Mill 15, Mine 16, Imperial Camp 17, Stormcloak Camp 18, Doomstone ...

first sheet is just the vanilla ones. please note that i did not include the door/teleport/etc markers on there but they do count towards the limit

if someone knows their position and wants to add them please feel free

from the last time i did this i had the markers for hammerfell and high rock in addition to cyrodiil

Right now Morrowind is using the most of all the projects and I'm wondering if there are a few that vanila markers may make sense for. only suggesting this as this is going to end up as hopefully a community-wide index

the telvanni marker from dragonborn might make sense for the central tower or telvannis oad

and the Garden Chapel/Monastery, General Hamlet, Morrowind Farm, Morrowind Stables, Dumac Dwemer, Watchtower, and Ruined Town markers all seem like they can be vanilla markers

Dragonborn used the regular dwemer marker for Dumac ruins so it would be consistent

oh also I know that elsweyr has a set of markers but I don't have it on hand @The Old Ye Bard

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-Oct-18 08:28 PM

We're going to be using the Dragonborn markers from Raven Rock and Tel Mythrin for the Redoran and Telvanni small towns respectively, and Telvannis Oad is a major city so it should have a unique marker

The reason we had new ones planned for things like groves and stables is that the Morrowind versions of those things are radically different from the Skryim ones, for example stables will have guars instead of horses, so a horseshoe symbol doesn't really make sense

Also, we're making an entirely new Dwemer tileset for Dumac ones (Dragonborn still used the Rourken set) so it would make sense to have a new marker

We can cut down on a few things though, let me get back to you when I've had a chance to talk to Larrian about it

1shoedpunk 25-Oct-18 09:10 PM

ok

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 01:10 AM

I think this should be for BS only, so we don't have to restrict ourselves

MW modeled its number of map markers directly after Skyrim's numbers for different locales etc.

But we can reduce it if need be

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 01:25 AM

Good work, 1shoed

1

Bellatrix 26-Oct-18 01:25 AM

What we could do is come up with a directory of all our province IDs and publish it. That way other mods if they don’t want to conflict can use the empty slots? Of can conflict if they’re happy too

I’ll update 1shoes sheet with Roscreas too now we know what they are. @Hannes821 am I ok to turn the common cult ones in to Atmora / Roscrea?

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 01:28 AM

Yes well

You can add /roscrea

To the same slot maybe

Bellatrix 26-Oct-18 01:29 AM

Yeah that’s what I was thinking.

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 01:29 AM

The Old Ye Bard 26-Oct-18 02:38 AM

We should be allowing at least 40-60 spare slots, accomodating for Valenwood, along with the potential for one other project. It would also be worth putting a programmer on the cap issue, as if we can get over the limit then it clears up a lot of issues. Definitely shouldn't be publishing this information, we'd previously kept the knowledge about custom map markers fairly closed off information so we didn't create more mod conflicts in the community.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Maps for reference, all the stock map markers

Skyrim:Maps

The Old Ye Bard 26-Oct-18 02:58 AM

All of the following in theory could be shared/reused, as they aren't visually specific to Skyrim. Dock Farm Mine Cave Pass Grove Clearing Wheat Mill Wood Mill Ships/Shipwreck Lighthouse Imperial Fort Imperial Camp Orc Stronghold Giant Camp Daedric Shrine

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 03:06 AM

ehm yes, we have this info.

is there a valenwood project out there?

or is it only for the chance?

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:07 AM

Not currently

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 03:07 AM

we do have a very kind programmer helping me there. and i hope i can provide a tutorial and the empty slots file for all

and so if you check 1shoeds list, they started already to pin all their markers

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:07 AM

tbh I don't think we need to keep slots for projects that may never exist

Nor do I think we need to accommodate for projects not part of the collab, like Thras

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 03:08 AM

so basically, we dont need to nail the names

Meglos (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:08 AM

If we have free spots that no one needs, that's fine, but we shouldn't compromise on what we want for projects that aren't under the BS umbrella and/or don't exist

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 03:08 AM

at this point, we need estimate count of how much per team is required

we also will not put our map markers all in at once.

each team will go with their speed, we just want to make sure we can all use the same file

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:09 AM

Different provinces are also different sizes, keep in mind

MW needs a lot because of needing unique stuff for guar stables etc. as opposed to horseshoes

Meglos (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:09 AM

If we add up everyone's map marker lists and they're over the count, then we can talk about reducing some provinces' sizes. Until then we're just putting the cart before the horse

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:10 AM

Yep

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 03:10 AM

so i can ask him if he can go beyond the 255, but it wasnt done before, because the data file type is a string, which has 256 slots of info, and 0 is one of them

Bellatrix 26-Oct-18 03:10 AM

I’d still like us to share what we know eventually but it’s not a hill worth dying on today

1

Meglos (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:10 AM

Yeah, I don't think this is anything worth getting into a heated debate about :P

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 03:10 AM

guar stables

sounds awesome.

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:10 AM

Agreed tbh

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 03:10 AM

larry please make it as awesome as i imagine it!

haha

Meglos (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:11 AM

Every province just submit their list and if it turns out there's too many, we'll shrink some down (edited)

1

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 03:11 AM

its okay if you keep the names secret

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:11 AM

@Hannes821

1

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 03:12 AM

we need a number that we can work with now for reserving you slots for elsweyr

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:12 AM

Why do the names need to be secret?

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 03:12 AM

they dont have to, but just let it be.

most important is we have an estimate slot number

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:12 AM

As long as we have a number

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 03:12 AM

so everyone can work with it

yes

so, estimate was 20, now maybe Elsweyr needs 30 or what, which is okay, i just need to put it there in the plan so we have it sorted out

i just guessed 20 because we use 20

Bellatrix 26-Oct-18 03:15 AM

30?

Roscrea needs 3! To be fair that’s cos we share 8 with atmora but I think we win a prize for efficiency.

1

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 03:15 AM

its okay, i mean IB needs 40?

we have the capacity to give everyone what they need i believe

its just for planning the numbers at this pint

*ponit

point, damn ^^

Bellatrix 26-Oct-18 03:16 AM

You can basically ignore us as a rounding error at this point

1

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 03:17 AM

see you laters!

The Old Ye Bard 26-Oct-18 03:23 AM

Elsweyr already has Bosmer locations we need to accomodate for, and a significant portion of the Cyrodiil team want to move over to Valenwood upon completion of work in their departments — as the heightmap is in Heartlands and both of the Heartlands teams eventually need the area for LOD regardless, keeping slots open for Valenwood is perfectly reasonable. (edited)

Bellatrix 26-Oct-18 03:27 AM

Yeah. That’s true. I know 1shoe and MrJGT have expressed an interesting in moving to Valenwood when we’re done and I guess other provinces probably have Valenwood fans too so it could very well happen a few years down the line. It looks like it should be ok though. Especially if everyone has a think about if they really do need custom map markers for everything. There’s a massive spread in numbers so I suspect we’re taking very different approaches to the shiney new toy.

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:29 AM

Well as I said in the past I'd be more than happy to help with Valenwood LOD when it comes to it :P

Bellatrix 26-Oct-18 03:29 AM

I can’t think of anything I want to do less than start another province from scratch. You’re all crazy

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:30 AM

Oh no I don't want to join Valenwood or start it

just the distant LOD

The Old Ye Bard 26-Oct-18 03:30 AM

We have people on the two teams already for dealing with Valenwood LOD.

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:31 AM

All good in that case, just offering :P

The Old Ye Bard 26-Oct-18 03:32 AM

@Meglos (Morrowind) I've requested editing access on that doc.

Meglos (Morrowind) 26-Oct-18 03:34 AM

@The Old Ye Bard Rich made the doc, not me

The Old Ye Bard 26-Oct-18 03:35 AM

@1shoedpunk

Bellatrix 26-Oct-18 03:35 AM

He’s asleep.

The Old Ye Bard 26-Oct-18 03:42 AM

Thanks Rich!

The Old Ye Bard 26-Oct-18 04:52 AM

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pL9Jp5dGmvMaaySRsh1Y6HQV9O8h0RXzzdRheyjCT-s/edit?ts=5bd2d36c#gid=923442999 Updated the doc with formatting and Elsweyr + Valenwood.

Common Map Marker Project

Beyond Skyrim Map Markers TNAM#, Marker Name, Project, Type, Art Complete?, Merged to File?, Notes 0-59, Stock Skyrim Markers, Skyrim, N/ A, N/ A 60, Blacklight, Morrowind 61, Rootspire, Morrowind 62, Soluthis, Morrowind 63, Silgrad, Morrowind 64, Kragenmoor, Morrowin...

Rubaedo 26-Oct-18 05:09 AM

@Zeezee when you're up, we need to double check our list.

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 05:53 AM

@Bellatrix hey claire, ehm Roscrea is not yet in there, and i cant edit it for you. I guess you do that after work later

Bellatrix 26-Oct-18 05:54 AM

I can’t either. I’ve PMed 1shoe so he knows what’s what.

1

Zeezee 26-Oct-18 02:26 PM

Hmm, How are we handling ruins types that are present across multiple provinces? I don't see a reason to have a separate barsaebic aylied ruin from the standard aylied ruin

Zeezee 26-Oct-18 02:46 PM

We've got out list written up for whomever is managing this list.

1shoedpunk 26-Oct-18 03:03 PM

Generally location types should have the same map markers across provinces

1

You can paste it here if you want

Zeezee 26-Oct-18 03:05 PM

Lilmoth city Stormhold city Gideon city Blackrose city archon city Thorn city Ualchippa special The Rose special Hist grove landscape Knahaten settlement settlement Shnahken settlement settlmenet Archien manor settlement Naga camp camp Xanmeer dungeon Kothringi ruins dungeon Lilmothiit ruins dungeon

Bellatrix 26-Oct-18 03:26 PM

I don’t know what the rose is but I want to visit it

Zeezee 26-Oct-18 03:30 PM

Ancient prison constructed by an army of summoned atronachs. It was where the empire sent its most dangerous criminals and political dissidence it wanted to just disapear until blackmarsh seceded from the empire. After that it continued to function much the same but for newly independent argonia. However a recent uprest saw it taken over from the inside, becoming the personal fortress of a very powerful mage who was imprisoned there. (edited)

Robcbwilson 26-Oct-18 03:31 PM

I want to visit it more now I know what it is

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 04:07 PM

You can paste it here if you want -> BM and Ros still missing, and a general note; if i can trust my team, and each of us can trust their team, maybe 50 people or more; granting each other edit access on main quest docs; its strange we cant do so here in this small circle, for some map markers. If you decide i am trustworthy, you can add HannesUlbricht821@gmail.com to those who can edit it.

Bellatrix 26-Oct-18 04:37 PM

I wouldn’t get too paranoid. You’re talking to the guy who gave a load of total randoms beta test access to our Bruma files.

Think it’s just a permissions glitch cos no one can access it so far.

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 04:47 PM

i didnt mean to sound paranoid, and i sure am not.

maybe my comment came over a bit dry

but we should work on some "together-spirit" thing. i know its challenging but we have 2018, and the big fights are long over.

yes and i didnt mean that it was intensional

*intentional.

its more like how we usually work together up to now, and maybe we change that in general. i would never even understand it as a message directed at anyone specific.

Bellatrix 26-Oct-18 04:51 PM

Dude, it’s a permissions issue, it’ll get sorted. It’s not we’re not working together it’s just 1shoe didn’t mash the right combination of buttons yet.

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 05:06 PM

No I mean I should have said it differently. We usually do share things by personalised access.

That's why I added the mail

I just thought maybe a list with us makes sense

So if we have a gdrive folder

We don't have to request

And everything inside is to be used by all of us and we can add comments or ideas

But I know you usually go with sharing the links directly with permissions

Just making the suggestion to sort that out so its never taking time anymore

Bellatrix 26-Oct-18 05:09 PM

TBH I usually mess up my sharing permissions. They’re either too stringent or too relaxed on Roscrea. (edited)

But that’s operator error rather than planned

Hannes821 26-Oct-18 05:11 PM

Yeah I mean realistically, we discuss a document here maybe once a year so it might be overkill anyways to set up a folder for it on gdrive and make a list of our emails, on top of the fact that someone might not want to share theirs

And yes like often, I did the second step before the first so it came over the wrong way

Sorry and good night

1shoedpunk 26-Oct-18 06:43 PM

updated it to be anyone with a link

I just didn't think of that earlier when i made it

believe me, i'd rather other teams do the work of entering in their marker names themselves, less work for me

Hannes821 27-Oct-18 01:20 AM

yes. In general I would be happy if we have more common topics like map markers, common factions, common days of the year (festivals, events), side quests for traveling or the fomod installer topic come to mind, or side quest templates. Also, we can make the atronach forge more busy I think. All of this is just low priority optional content but it could be used by any team as template which makes it potentially very efficient. And we can also talk about quality checks (meshes especially textures, shaders, UV maps, but also weathers, water, imagespaces etc) if there is an interest in it. I am open to it. But I know we are busy with daily work and there is still a beta phase later.

1shoedpunk 27-Oct-18 10:21 AM

Implementing quest content beyond keywords into bsassets is going to be a bit tricky. Only people who have perforce set up can really merge them in without breaking them which is I think just me and Claire. Also stuff like side quest templates are really scripts that people would use rather than actual implemented quests in-game. Once other teams start implementing quests at a large scale we could see what might be something we could promote to BSAssets. I know we do have a couple.

1

1shoedpunk 27-Oct-18 10:39 AM

That's with regards to quests that have fragments attached, at least

1

Standalone stuff like spells where the script names don't change on merge are probably safe for anyone to merge in.

We already have some of those there.

Hannes821 27-Oct-18 10:47 AM

yes, so if anyone wants to talk about these things above, we can share ours and discuss them.

Hannes821 06-Nov-18 05:31 AM

By the way, I set up a detailed Trello board recently and also a gitlab repository. If I can help anyway of you, let me know

First, I didn't like Trello but now I see it's really good for organisation

Hayden 16-Nov-18 01:21 AM

@Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) do you hold a council seat for Elsweyr?

Hannes821 16-Nov-18 05:24 AM

@Hugh hey, welcome here, mate!

Hugh 16-Nov-18 05:24 AM

Thank you, happy to be here

1shoedpunk 09-Dec-18 03:26 PM

Just a heads up to everyone - I found a very useful tool for generating scratch tracks for voice acting in bulk

1

https://github.com/StachePL/ExcelToAmazonPolly

StachePL/ExcelToAmazonPolly

Simple text-to-speech tool combining powers of Excel and Amazon Polly. - StachePL/ExcelToAmazonPolly

You can pretty easily change the dialogue export from the creation kit to work with it

Bellatrix 16-Jan-19 12:27 PM

I’m taking a bit of a break from BS servers. If anything comes up councilwise you can always contact me via @1shoedpunk

1

Hannes821 16-Jan-19 04:51 PM

I feel sympathy and consider the same for myself as I see that we spent too much time on ourselves rather than developing our projects...

Hannes821 02-Mar-19 04:28 AM

i am saddedened to tell you we had a questionable event. a BM 3d artist offered "help" (same phrase lasur used) and i invited her to the team; but we didnt have a lot of open 3d claims, so we discussed a new claim for her. well, the first thing she did after getting personal access to the boards and build was creating a general anonymous full permission share link. after being asked why, she immediately left, just saying one thin sentence about it being a missunderstanding. I hope that we can really move forward and there is no more "activities" at this point, looking at recent events. We hope that was really just a "missunderstanding", but then we could have talked about it. PS: if you want to have our recent build, i can add you with personal permissions; but we do not use these anonymous full permission sharing option.

Sol 04-Mar-19 04:24 PM

May I ask who the artist was? Admittedly the only BM 3D artists that I know of are Stan and Moose.

Hannes821 05-Mar-19 07:40 AM

Not them.

Meglos (Morrowind) 05-Mar-19 02:17 PM

Well, there's not much anyone can do about it until you tell us who it was :P

Hannes821 05-Mar-19 05:43 PM

i dont think we need to do anything.

i was just saying that in case if that might go on, in the small chance that it wasnt a missunderstanding. just to be sure.

1shoedpunk 31-Mar-19 06:17 AM

Minor thing but it seems like there is a perception that the Alinor project some people have been working on is part of Beyond Skyrim. I don't know if it's worth saying something. People are entitled to work on whatever they want but if they're recruiting off our reputation that seems like a bit of a problem. (edited)

Meglos (Morrowind) 31-Mar-19 12:56 PM

Yeah I've heard bits and pieces here and there about this project. Somewhat concerned as they have tried recruiting Morrowind members directly

Robcbwilson 31-Mar-19 02:28 PM

Nipzo is the lead of this project. I can have a word with them officially if you would like

On both counts

Meglos (Morrowind) 31-Mar-19 03:50 PM

No, he's a Morrowind member on BS so I'll have a word with him officially if there are any official words that need having

1shoedpunk 31-Mar-19 07:50 PM

I think as long as it's clear that it isn't part of Beyond Skyrim it isn't a problem

Hannes821 22-Apr-19 11:04 AM

so, what do we do about the AU? we didnt have a single recruit from there since i left half a year ago. i personally feel a more open offer of knowledge (tutorials) brings some people with skills by chance. i doubt you can nail people with the courses, and we depend on good will anyways. The other thing is that both old and new website seem to be not maintained. Maybe it is appropriate to help by sending people for joint efforts at these tasks? Or just ask what the plan is for the future? I am not going to be part of that project "websites", i am just asking for where we are going and i would only help if i was asked by the people in charge; also the time i can offer is limited.

Rubaedo 11-May-19 01:53 PM

If I may, we weren't informed that there would be a 10000 Discord Member celebration video. This is obviously the most minor of minor complaints, but in the future could we make sure that all leads know before hand when we do celebrations like this? It would be nice for us all to be on the same page. Plus we can always give our own expertise to ensure things are in tiptop shape.

Rubaedo 11-May-19 02:01 PM

It seems a bit out of sorts to do large scale, pan-project announcements or events without informing all councilors beforehand.

Hayden 11-May-19 10:54 PM

It was discussed over 5 days in the PR server that Larrian is in?

1

Hannes821 12-May-19 03:46 PM

well now you are in, which is good. and its good if everyone joins PR and joins discussions!

its hard to give "responsibilities" when informations get lost. best is everyone is there and picks them up.

Rubaedo 07-Jun-19 11:49 AM

Does anyone have any plans regarding any of the materials added by ESO in later expansions? Rubedite, Galatite, Calcinium, Void-Stone, etc?

Hannes821 08-Jun-19 12:36 AM

no, not really.

Rubaedo 08-Jun-19 10:01 AM

Ping me if that changes. We might have some designs for that in BM. Potentially. Maybe.

1

Hannes821 23-Jun-19 06:09 PM

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pL9Jp5dGmvMaaySRsh1Y6HQV9O8h0RXzzdRheyjCT-s/edit?ts=5bd2d36c#gid=923442999

Common Map Marker Project

Beyond Skyrim Map Markers TNAM #,Marker Name,Project,Type,Art Complete?,Merged to File?,Notes 0-59,Stock Skyrim Markers,Skyrim,N/A,N/A 60,Blacklight,Morrowind 61,Rootspire,Morrowind 62,Soluthis,Morrowind 63,Silgrad,Morrowind 64,Kragenmoor,Morrowind 65,Kragenmoor Palace,Morro...

Because it's open now, see tutorial in #implementation

I would even consider sharing the document on work level with implementation

Bellatrix 24-Jun-19 01:51 AM

Awesome!

I’m really looking forward to seeing all our map markers in-game. Is it still SKSE dependent or did anyone manage to find a work around?

Hayden 24-Jun-19 01:57 AM

"The version we use needs skse, greaves said it's possible without but requires more work. " From Hannes in #implementation

Hannes821 26-Jun-19 08:17 AM

Yes thank you Hayden

Hey Hayden say, did this hacksivler claim get dropped?

It's okay, just let me know

Hayden 26-Jun-19 06:29 PM

Oh sorry I could've sworn I got back to you, it's basically all finished I just need to play around with the textures a bit more

Hannes821 27-Jun-19 03:31 AM

Ok

Larrian (Morrowind) 31-Jul-19 03:14 AM

We might want to watch some of our phrasing here

'black piece of shit' isn't ideal phrasing for PR

Rubaedo 31-Jul-19 03:20 AM

Sweet Inanna, what the absolute fuck

Bellatrix 31-Jul-19 03:20 AM

Errrm that’s not good. Has anyone moderated it?

Larrian (Morrowind) 31-Jul-19 03:20 AM

considering it was an official showcase post it amazingly hasn't

Rubaedo 31-Jul-19 03:22 AM

@Hannes821, I'm not entirely sure if that's a bit of a language barrier, but you might want to reign that in when you get the chance.

Bellatrix 31-Jul-19 03:23 AM

Crap - I didn’t even see it. Can we delete and repost?

Rubaedo 31-Jul-19 03:24 AM

Tbh I don't think anyone would much notice. It seems like it must have flown under the radar, but leaving it up and uneditted is... well it's not a particularly good look.

Bellatrix 31-Jul-19 03:25 AM

In on my phone so don’t want to start doing anything complex but I’ll ask in moderators chat. Someone should be around.

Rubaedo 31-Jul-19 03:26 AM

Thanks Claire ❤

Meglos (Morrowind) 31-Jul-19 03:27 AM

Also it seems a bit odd to post what seems like spoilers for the final Atmora boss :P

Bellatrix 31-Jul-19 03:28 AM

That’s up to atmora

Hannes821 31-Jul-19 02:22 PM

Sorry I have no idea

Will read in a bit

So

Not we have to watch our language, Abbys has to. If I might correct you , Larry. Where did he post that?

I have never told him to do anything like that.

I will make sure this does never happen again

Some kind of pr channel? Which server was it?

Community?

Showcase?

ub3rman123 31-Jul-19 02:31 PM

Yeah, showcase on the community server

Hannes821 31-Jul-19 02:39 PM

I requested deleting

Because 1) I didn't see how it represents our work, 2) it's offensive language in a international intercultural community, and 3) it was just a very random move without any talk before

And I said so in the channel to avoid missunderstanding

Thanks for making me aware of the situation

Bellatrix 31-Jul-19 02:42 PM

Its ok - it happens from time to time. Just weird that the mods on the outpost didn’t catch it - they’re usually amazing but this one slipped through for a while.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-19 02:23 AM

@everyone can everyone please calm their respective team members down about the plagiarism thing? What we absolutely don't need is for us to look like assholes via rude comments posted in public. Not sure if any have happened yet but there's a lot of melodrama going on in general chat, mostly by people who weren't even involved in Bruma.

Hannes821 04-Aug-19 02:24 AM

i dont think we do post about it, but let me know if so. i will make sure there are no comments from us!

Bellatrix 04-Aug-19 06:20 AM

Also, does anyone know who this guy is? Apparently he tried to join blackmarsh a while ago? We have a very vauge suspicion he may have had access to a very old BSAssets (there's an old ladies mantle in his mod that was in BSAssets but replaced before we released Bruma) so I'd just like to chek that whoever they are they don't still have access to any of our gits

Hayden 04-Aug-19 06:55 AM

Rubaedo 04-Aug-19 12:20 PM

I seem to have missed the specifics here. Could someone fill me in as to this melodrama?

Hayden 04-Aug-19 12:35 PM

See #general @Rubaedo

Hannes821 04-Aug-19 01:13 PM

A guy who wanted to LD for BM made his own personal BM and Valenwood mods. Using assets of tesrenewal and bs and other sources, some maybe without permission as it seems

For once it's cool if people invest so much time and build mods, but it's an issue when they use assets Others invested a lot of work on, without even asking, as it seems

Claire handles the issue in contact with nexus and Skywind.

I hope that's correct

Oh, and we said we should not publicly comment there, that's not helpful

Get his opinion, and the nexus staffs and the Skywinds. We can definitely request him to not use aessets he didn't have permission for if we want

I actually think it's a good idea to ask for getting bs assets removed, because 1) those assets aren't polished/up to date and therefore not as good as we could represent us, and 2) I think teams want to have new things for players to offer.

But these things should be decided by the respective teams in my opinion

Bellatrix 04-Aug-19 01:34 PM

It violates our (Burma’s) terms for use (mods that use it must have ours as a dependency and they must not re-distribute meshes etc) so we’ve asked them to remove the assets from the mod and do as per the terms. (edited)

As most of the ‘borrowed’ assets were made by Markus and he’s not up for it there’s no scope for granting a retrospective OK to use them as he is currently.

We’ve also reported the mod to Nexus and asked them to remove it until we get the permissions sorted and given Morrowind a heads up that the mod might be using their assets too (suspect more mods are affected but we were more bothered about are stuff).

Hannes821 04-Aug-19 03:12 PM

yes. someone pls tell me if there is atmora stuff inside, which i doubt

but i would have done the same

Bellatrix 04-Aug-19 03:18 PM

Don’t think so. It all seems like stuff that was publicly available but the mod author thought they didn’t need to obey the rules or possibly the odd asset from a v old BSAssets build.

Meglos (Morrowind) 04-Aug-19 03:25 PM

Yeah, likely no Morrowind stuff in there either then

Bellatrix 04-Aug-19 03:26 PM

I can’t swear to it but if 1nda had spotted anything she’d have said - that’s why we spoke to morrowblivion cos there’s a lot of good Morrowind style stuff on there but it isn’t BS stuff.

Anyway, we’ll let nexus take care of it now. Bit disappointed they haven’t taken it down already but I also DMed Picky cod I know they don’t have the best reputation for dealing with this stuff and he’s going to take a look when he gets to work tomorrow.

Hannes821 04-Aug-19 05:55 PM

They asked if they could share it on nexus social media

Twitter and that

I hope they act responsible

I mean for them each hit is crucial for community survival

In the comments of that mod. Picky

Zeezee 04-Aug-19 06:50 PM

There was a plagarism thing?

Bellatrix 05-Aug-19 12:27 AM

There’s still a plagiarism thing as the mod is still up and hasn’t been fixed. He’s claiming one shack but that’s not true - there’s well over a hundred of our models being distributed without our permission by it (not sure if the mod uses all of them but they’re in the folders). Can share the list of anyone wants but it’s pretty big and I don’t think discord does spoiler tags...?

Meglos (Morrowind) 05-Aug-19 12:30 AM

Put it in a doc and link that maybe?

Bellatrix 05-Aug-19 12:57 AM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dIeTbShu-RneNhiE31HpLkS1KHegSLMQeM-I-lr8784/edit?usp=sharing

Valenwood

meshes\architecture\Cyrodil\cloudrulertemple - whole folder meshes\architecture\Cyrodil\clutter - fireplace.nif meshes\architecture\Cyrodil\crywalls - whole folder meshes\architecture\Cyrodil\cyledges - whole folder meshes\architecture\Cyrodil\cystonefence - whole folder mesh...

Bellatrix 05-Aug-19 02:32 PM

Mod is now hidden but the message is a bit yikes https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/27844?tab=posts

Mod unavailable

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Rubaedo 05-Aug-19 02:47 PM

Oof

Enough passive aggression to sink the ark

Bellatrix 05-Aug-19 02:50 PM

I feel a bit sorry for him because he obviously put a lot of work into it. As far as I can tell he’s very new to modding and there are a lot of rookie mistakes but he also got really salty really fast.

Hannes821 05-Aug-19 03:59 PM

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/277507179123048458/608038557566763010/2222222.PNG

yes. but this message is inappropriate. i dont want to judge because i dont know how others in our name talked to him before, but thats still not a good way to react.

Bellatrix 05-Aug-19 04:02 PM

Meh. Dignified silence from us is the only option.

Rubaedo 05-Aug-19 04:12 PM

I concur. This is one person's badly worded shout into the void. If a larger outcry starts, we can make our case, but as it is there's absolutely no reason to throw gas on this fire.

Hayden 06-Aug-19 01:11 AM

Not going to lose sleep over it that's for sure

Hayden 09-Aug-19 03:32 AM

Yo guys, So thoughts on just disolving the AF? At this point it doesn't really serve much of a purpose as every province has their own 3D teams, and anyone that moves between them can simply ask/use the community server to do so. Just thought I'd hear everyone's thoughts on the matter and if that runs into any council problems as it'd essentially be disolving a team and having one less council position.

Rubaedo 09-Aug-19 09:46 AM

Honestly if you feel comfortable doing so, I wouldn't feel opposed to it. It was a great idea, but each team having a dedicated 3D team just seems to have become a necessity.

ub3rman123 09-Aug-19 09:48 AM

Yeah, and in a practical sense, I've seen a lot of collaboration between the 3d teams already without a formal infrastructure.

Hayden 09-Aug-19 10:07 AM

So do we need to have a vote or anything or can I just make the AF server and all the roles on the community server disappear in the coming day or so?

ub3rman123 09-Aug-19 10:17 AM

I'm not really sure any of us are more qualified to decide, but I'll wait for other opinions.

Bellatrix 09-Aug-19 11:11 AM

Maybe hand off for a week or so and see what everyone else thinks?

I really liked the forge when it was a training and collaboration area (might still be but o haven’t noticed us getting any new recruits from that route for ages...?)

I guess the only thing that closing the forge would potentially loose for a cross-province 3D network so we’d be more siloed, but then I don’t know how active the forge is at the moment anyway...?

Hannes821 09-Aug-19 11:16 AM

sadly these coop teams are not so active. so yeah. i wish it would be different.

maybe move things from that discord into this one here

Hayden 09-Aug-19 12:11 PM

The AU really covered a lot of the training a collab stuff, the AF now is basically just acts as a place for new members who want to work cross-province to start before actually becoming comfortable within a team and moving about themselves

Bellatrix 09-Aug-19 12:36 PM

And we don't really need a cross province place for modellers to get feedback / help anymore? Does everyone have enough expertise in their own provinces that this isn't an issue?

Hayden 09-Aug-19 12:39 PM

If we still want any kind of cross-province discussion or critique I think the #3d here can serve that purpose. If any members need help then they're directed to the AU anyway.

Bellatrix 09-Aug-19 12:40 PM

I'd be fine with getting rid of it then

Hannes821 09-Aug-19 03:41 PM

at the moment i would agree it makes no sense for us.

i was once hoping there would be one big BS dev team emerging from pan bs teams with more coop.

but sadly didnt happen and will not

Hayden 15-Aug-19 02:47 PM

So with nobody expressing any objections on dissolving the AF I'll be closing down the server in the next 24 hours as well as requesting any AF related roles be removed from the respective servers (AU, Community Server, and here). I'm assuming with the dissolution of the AF that I will no longer hold a project lead role or council seat, so I'll leave that up to someone in here to remove me from the respective lists and roles.

Rubaedo 15-Aug-19 02:50 PM

Good luck Hayden. No matter what, we're pulling for ya ❤

ub3rman123 15-Aug-19 02:53 PM

Aww, it feels like tearful goodbyes are in order for some reason.

Rubaedo 15-Aug-19 02:55 PM

Yeah seriously

Hayden 15-Aug-19 03:24 PM

Alternatively you can all rename the channel to #project_lead_chat_and_hayden and pretend nothing has changed

You all just don't need to bother me when shit goes down and y'all need to do them council votes

Hayden 16-Aug-19 12:04 AM

Atronach Forge server and Community Server roles are kill

Have fun errybody!

❤

Bellatrix 16-Aug-19 05:41 AM

If we’re killing off the AF, is it worth doing a check in with how the AU is doing? I’ve not had any recruits out of the AU for ages - is it still active?

Hayden 16-Aug-19 02:44 PM

The AU I personally believe is flourishing. We haven't had many recruits by the looks of it but in the last few days alone a few current BS members have asked for critique and help, at least in the 3D department.

Bellatrix 16-Aug-19 05:13 PM

What happening about the tutorials etc? Would be really good to get them up on the website

Actually would be really good for the AU to have a page on the website.

Hayden 16-Aug-19 06:56 PM

That'd be on Hugh's side of things now

Hannes821 17-Aug-19 04:23 AM

yes.

tutorials would be a powerful tool.

Bellatrix 01-Sep-19 02:56 AM

Can the respective leads have a word with ash and deer? That dev channel chat log is not pretty

Larrian (Morrowind) 01-Sep-19 08:11 AM

Yep I've already done so with Deer

1

Bellatrix 03-Sep-19 02:42 AM

Is anyone else getting wall of text spam from CrowBennett complaining that ‘the music department’ is dysfunctional (I have no idea if he means roscreas or BS in general, but as roscreas is Eric and Alex Jordon its definitely not dysfunctional!!)

Bellatrix 03-Sep-19 03:05 AM

ub3rman123 03-Sep-19 06:31 AM

Who is that?

Bellatrix 03-Sep-19 06:32 AM

Someone who signed up after a re recruitment drive. He has a studio. It’s all a bit weird though.

Bellatrix 03-Sep-19 08:16 AM

I’ve been chatting to Eric now he’s up and it sounds like he’s been a bother on Morrowind too.

Rubaedo 03-Sep-19 01:53 PM

He's on BM too. A bit of an odd one, honestly. Tends to give a LOT of updates on his availability to do work even when we're beyond not ready for VA.

We mostly just ignore him and let him go on, honestly.

Bellatrix 03-Sep-19 01:54 PM

Yeah. That’s what I’d been doing until I got the text wall.

I went in with this but he’s been typing for 20 mins now so I’m expecting another wall of text TBH..

Bellatrix 03-Sep-19 02:27 PM

He’s all yours @Rubaedo have fun!

Rubaedo 03-Sep-19 02:30 PM

Well I'm glad he's out of your hair, at least

Bellatrix 03-Sep-19 02:38 PM

Hugh DMed me earlier as he' heard I'd been having trouble. Apparently he's planning a similar chat.

I don't know if I feel a bit sorry for him but if he really does do stuff like this regularly he must know that coming into an established volunteer project all guns blazing is not a recipe for success. Heck it's sunk or almost sunk enough leads who weren't professionals, so he should definitely know better.

ub3rman123 03-Sep-19 02:55 PM

Is this one of those "you're not managing the project exactly the way I think it should be and you're doomed to failure" people? We get those every now and then.

Bellatrix 03-Sep-19 02:59 PM

Think so

Rubaedo 03-Sep-19 03:13 PM

Always very fun to have to explain in detail to someone that they're not actually a lead on the project.

Reminds me of that one writer we had on MW for a while who was very upset we were inserting our political bias of "slavery is bad, generally." (edited)

1shoedpunk 28-Sep-19 08:16 PM

Can Alinor put forward an official application? I know people are interested and the team seams cohesive, so I'd vote for it, but I'm not completely comfortable with an unofficial team forming and getting the same considerations as a team that went through the process

To be clear I'm advocating for a yes vote. They seem to have a good spread of involved members and enthusiasm behind it

Rubaedo 28-Sep-19 08:23 PM

I would like to see it put to an official vote. I recognize the need for caution and patience, but its clear that their end goal is to get on BS, and I'd like to see some viability and self sufficience if at all possible.

Bellatrix 29-Sep-19 01:38 AM

We can do, but it would have to be an absolutely outstanding proposal for me to vote yes. We're too diluted as it is and we don't have a great track record with new projects.

Hannes821 29-Sep-19 05:17 AM

If they have a realistic concept of some degree and a team behind, I would agree, as for any team that might add an entire region. But it's very important that they can work on their own and have at least a good organisation and self initiative. Bs can help but not carry a team, and we all want to move forward ourselves. That being said, with our experience, and more teams, we have more to offer to fans as a community with more active teams

That's an informal vote if we encourage an official application I take it.

@Deleted User @Tascani (Atmora) opinions?

Deleted User 29-Sep-19 05:24 AM

I've been on their server as a guest for the last 6 months now, so as far as superficial observations go, there is a lot of activity there and lots of competent and experienced people. I do agree with Claire though about the dilution concerns and the necessity for their proposal to be outstanding

Hannes821 29-Sep-19 05:29 AM

so yes, i didnt watch the content updates there so carefully, i cannot judge that. It really depends on how lean their concept of development is; and how much they can cover it themselfs for me, but my tendency would be welcoming. there are quite a few cool teams out there, and for those who really work and can realise what they plan, i would be positive in general.

that being said, there are some teams that never had a major update in longer time periods.

so its important to see what the plans are and how they are engaging

(^ outside BS, not refering to your teams)

Hannes821 29-Sep-19 05:48 AM

something that i realised a few weeks before: we usually had our "binding votes" on the old website/forum

now its officially this channel i assume since everybody is here?

documentation also fine?

i mean we didnt vote on anything since forever and we dont vote so often in the future as well i assume

ub3rman123 29-Sep-19 07:56 AM

Who are Alinor? I apparently haven't been paying attention and would need to do my research.

Hannes821 29-Sep-19 10:11 AM

wait maybe i mixed them up, there are so many projects on that stage

well we will see the application i guess

1shoedpunk 01-Oct-19 09:18 AM

Yes we've switched to this channel for votes

Hannes821 01-Oct-19 12:20 PM

i mean it will be the first time, that it has such a formal meaning. we rely on the backup of discord for protocol.

is that acceptable?

Hannes821 01-Oct-19 12:39 PM

i think it is.

i just meant to make it clear because people in the past had been very accurate about formal things.

1shoedpunk 01-Oct-19 02:40 PM

We did discuss it after the switch during the issue with or and established this as the new official channel for votes

Rubaedo 01-Oct-19 03:12 PM

Have they been given forewarning and a chance to make a formal proposal yet?

1shoedpunk 01-Oct-19 04:14 PM

Not to my knowledge. I've just been seeing references to writers checking with them on lore or plot stuff.

Rubaedo 01-Oct-19 04:18 PM

I'm suuuuper not comfortable with a vote if they haven't been given at least a few weeks, or preferably a month, to put together a formal application for us.

Hannes821 01-Oct-19 04:25 PM

i think they are free to apply whenever, right? they wouldnt be forced to hand in within a deadline, correct?

PS: ah alright, i already forgot when we talked about using this channel formally. thats good then!

Bellatrix 02-Oct-19 01:51 PM

Unless they want to I don’t see why we’d ask them to submit a proposal. The last I heard they weren’t planning on it for a while - until we’d at least got a few more releases under our belt.

And for the reasons above I’m nervous that we’d ask them to submit then vote no, because I can’t see me voting yes any time soon.

So unless they really really want to submit we’d be crazy to ask.

Rubaedo 02-Oct-19 03:45 PM

Mostly I’m concerned with not voting until they’ve had time to prep for one. I’d like them to at least have the same chance BM did back in the day.

Hannes821 03-Oct-19 04:46 AM

Everyone needs a chance. But i was told its better we wait for that decision until there are more releases of Beyond Skyrim. That applies especially for those teams that share many developers with active teams. We all have our hopes up for the 3 Kingdoms(IB), The New North(MW), Roscrea, Atmora and Cyrodiil sooner than later. My personal opinion was different at first, because i thought people can work in several teams at the same time, but it is a big topic nonetheless, spreading thin our development board, and something that can be discussed either way. I personally think, teams that are formed by people who are not yet involved in our ongoing projects could perform without conflicts on their own at the same time. We might also give them some kind of candidate status so we have something that keeps them motivated? i would be sad if projects would get inactive in 2019. It would be good to pay attention to people who want to focus on close releases, and still show the process for those who attempt to join as official process, Not to close an open door for them, on the other side. right? I dont really have a strong personal opinion on that but we should prevent damage of any form; loosing a team of motivated new people potentially is not in our interest either. Even if they mainly focus on "their" project, it is yet a chance to talk about global claims and cooperation, i believe.

but i guess these newer teams are already very sure about their attempt to join, so they will sooner or later be able to, i guess.

Hannes821 08-Oct-19 03:07 PM

I am totally okay with debating and being wrong, I didn't mean to stop discussing. I would welcome anyone to join in general. But I guess since it's an unanimous vote, we would have to adress these these "spreading thin the development board" concerns. I think I can say this because I believe my team is not so much affected by that potentially. So if a new team has some sort of agreement to work with a certain percentage of new people, I don't know, 90%? That might be a win win situation both for new teams and those who are concerned about the bs capacity?

Or less than 90. I have no idea what you feel appropriate and how these teams look right now. I didn't check

1shoedpunk 11-Oct-19 09:34 PM

We're wanting to move to SE in the next couple weeks @here

Especially @Elsweyr

Robcbwilson 12-Oct-19 01:19 AM

Thanks for the notice @1shoedpunk. In practical terms will it make any significant difference to our workflow?

Hannes821 12-Oct-19 01:51 AM

You will merge with version control in se?

1shoedpunk 12-Oct-19 06:15 AM

It shouldn't and yes

Hannes821 12-Oct-19 06:36 AM

Good then

Interested.

Bellatrix 12-Oct-19 06:37 AM

As long as BSAssets stays on LE and gets converted to SE after each merge it's fine for Roscrea. We're releasing on both platforms though so need the LEassets

Rubaedo 12-Oct-19 06:38 AM

We've been hoping to be able to move to SE for a while in Black Marsh. Just want to put out that that would be good for us.

Robcbwilson 12-Oct-19 06:50 AM

Are we planning on continuing to use the LE CK?

Bellatrix 12-Oct-19 06:53 AM

No. this would be a switch to SE for heartlands development

Robcbwilson 12-Oct-19 06:54 AM

Hmm, I have heard a lot of less than complimentary things about the SE CK

Rubaedo 12-Oct-19 09:03 AM

Much of those issues have been patched out.

Hannes821 12-Oct-19 09:29 AM

and how would you respond to the question that some people might ask for an LE version?

afaik there is no "downgrading" process

Bellatrix 12-Oct-19 09:34 AM

Errm Hannes, we’re swapping because the LE CK can’t really cope with heartlands anymore...? It’s kind of irrelevant what people want if the mod can’t even be built.

TBH, I’m gutted because I don’t play on SE, but if we’ve reached the limits of what LE can cope with what I want isn’t relevant:(

Hannes821 12-Oct-19 09:35 AM

so you hit the entries limit like skyblivion a year ago.

yes thats true ofc, and i hope we stay inside the planned size...

its a daily struggle

i recently cut 2000ish cells in the west so we would focus and be more efficient with entries.

Bellatrix 12-Oct-19 09:36 AM

No. Actually 1shoe is better to answer this than me. I believe we can’t generate lod for it anymore? Most people on level design don’t seem thrilled about the move though.

But we’ve always kind of know it was combing at some point.

Hannes821 12-Oct-19 09:37 AM

yes. CK was a bit instable. and some things about the merge, but its possible to work out.

i would ask skywind, they had exactly the same issue a year ago and started merging again in march i believe

in SE

sorry.

skyblivion

i was distracted

i asked Rebel, and i will give you the answer if interested

i hope to learn from their experiences and that should benefit us. maybe some quick workarounds they already use and we would have to find ourselfs, save some time,

Bellatrix 12-Oct-19 09:45 AM

Yeah. I mean I don’t want to move unless we really really have to but it looks like we’re probably at that point:(

Robcbwilson 12-Oct-19 09:56 AM

It would be nice if we could wait until after the Elsweyr to Cyrodiil to Roscrea walkabout

1shoedpunk 12-Oct-19 10:18 AM

Yeah we aren't doing this right now

Not immediately, just relatively near future

If people don't want to move we don't have to. I thought that the majority wanted to and we were just holding it back

Hannes821 12-Oct-19 10:30 AM

if it makes sense, why not. i mean i am always open-minded to anything. i hope we get more information, and for some teams its a necessity, those with more content /siize

ub3rman123 12-Oct-19 10:55 AM

I'll rope in my department directors, they're more technical than me. Think we can move this to #department_directors ?

1shoedpunk 12-Oct-19 11:31 AM

Ok

Hannes821 12-Oct-19 01:37 PM

For your interest, rebel just said worked pretty much the same, with the engine fixes the ref limit was trippled which allowed us to merge again and thats kinda it

Which makes it the obvious best solution for big projects, and just leaves that one issue that some fans might hope for an le release.

In terms of ck stability, I cannot say anything, just look around

Had there been patches for official se ck?

@Rubaedo or did you talk about private teams like open ck?

1shoedpunk 12-Oct-19 01:59 PM

I've merged with it before in testing. I also use it for another project and it's just as stable as the regular CK

Hannes821 12-Oct-19 02:08 PM

Sounds good

You know, I would take you up on that offer you made us to walk through the new process.

If we need a year or longer, and want to add more content, it might be worth the change.

Hannes821 12-Oct-19 02:17 PM

We definitely (once again) talk about it with the atmora management board (dep leads and directors)

Hannes821 12-Oct-19 02:44 PM

Our main problem (like last time we talked) is.still that we once promised to publish an le version. Maybe one can slowly think that the amount of le players becomes insignificant. But it's what we discuss

Bellatrix 13-Oct-19 03:17 AM

Cyrodiil hasn’t ever promised to do that.

Roscrea has always said we’ll release on both platforms and we still will (unless there’s a technical reason why we can’t)

ub3rman123 13-Oct-19 07:42 AM

Klime has mentioned that moving to SSE will mean he can't make the overhead maps any more. SSE has a bug where water doesn't display in orthagonal view.

Hannes821 13-Oct-19 03:05 PM

maybe you move to a later point so you can still get a decent map before ?

Hayden 14-Oct-19 12:20 AM

The overhead maps don't really have any other purpose than PR does it?

Robcbwilson 14-Oct-19 01:37 AM

No it doesn’t but it is very popular none the less

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Oct-19 04:21 AM

No they do for development as well

We've been using them as general progress maps and part of our gridmap system

Also they're good for team morale

Hannes821 14-Oct-19 04:24 AM

Then make Screenshots from 95 degree angle like the satellite did in Google maps. Water might appear again

Try some workarounds.

If you need more space for the build

Meglos (Morrowind) 14-Oct-19 07:43 PM

Just add the water back in later

Fix it in post

Hannes821 27-Oct-19 06:43 PM

hellow everyone. Regarding the move to SSE, i saw this: https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/7gu4dv/alright_where_the_hell_is_fonixdatacdf_for_se_ck/

Alright, where the hell is FonixData.cdf for SE CK? :(

Really sick of googling for no results. Is there seriously no way to generate and save lip files in the SE CK?

i hope its just some bad informed dudes and not a real thing

i found a link to this patch, https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/20061?tab=description

SSE CreationKit Fixes

Various patches and bug fixes for the Creation Kit to make life easier.

Hannes821 02-Nov-19 08:45 AM

i think the update solves the issue but i didnt find anyone explicitely confirming it (edited)

should be easy to test though

Rubaedo 17-Nov-19 11:15 AM

Hey yall, thought I should let everyone know that we're going to be making a joint ESM for Black Marsh and Morrowind in addition to what we have. There's an absolutely massive amount of overlap we share on the border, in no small part due to the climate overlaps in arnesia and the presence of the Laga-Hui on both sides of the border, so we felt it was prudent to do that instead of having to feed an absolute butt-ton of assets into BSAssets, which would then only be used for us two.

Hannes821 17-Nov-19 10:33 PM

I imagine, when they both are done, you can maybe even scratch the doubled ck limit of sse. I heard you do a lot of assets. Also, you will likely release mw first right? So technically, bm would be an update? Then it's very important to clean mw a lot because if there are dirty edits, they would be present in 2 esms. Usually one gets a lot so this will require more cleaning the files disciple I believe. Just to add my 2 cents there. But it's awesome that you are so motivated and determined to push all of tamriels east

I guess everyone is happy about teaming up. Are you still 2 teams or one then like iliac Bay?

*Present in one esm but 2 releases

And during both development cycles

Sorry it's 5 am here. What I wanted to say was : "this will require even more *cleaning-the-master" discipline

Larrian (Morrowind) 18-Nov-19 01:10 AM

@Hannes821 keep in mind the esm will only be for shared assets, NOT anything else

the only thing within that esm will be the assets, no quests, worldspaces or level design

Hannes821 18-Nov-19 02:05 AM

ah okay

then i didnt understand you first, i thought it would be literally everything together.

Hannes821 18-Nov-19 02:13 AM

so you have BSassets, BStamrielEast and either MW or BM

or something like that

Larrian (Morrowind) 18-Nov-19 05:51 AM

yep

this isn't an Iliac Bay situation

1

Robcbwilson 18-Nov-19 04:26 PM

My position has always been against any monetising of Beyond Skyrim and that won't change

1shoedpunk 18-Nov-19 04:32 PM

Feel free to make a personal patreon or accept donations on Twitch or something but it can't be linked to Beyond Skyrim. That's been a firm policy from the start.

3

Like, not even saying that you can't mention that you're part of the project. That's fine on its own, but it should be clear that any money is not going to the project.

ub3rman123 18-Nov-19 04:34 PM

I'd agree with that. Provided it's clearly personal, and that you're affiliated with Beyond Skyrim, would be all right.

Robcbwilson 18-Nov-19 04:34 PM

Yes, I have no problem with people asking for money but it cannot in any way be related to anything BS

ub3rman123 18-Nov-19 04:34 PM

The rewards for supporters would be a little trickier. I guess it'd have to be stuff you've worked on yourself or gotten permission to share from the creator?

Robcbwilson 18-Nov-19 04:34 PM

People cannot be thinking they are buying anything related to BS

1shoedpunk 18-Nov-19 04:36 PM

That is too explicit, if it's anywhere it should be in your bio

ub3rman123 18-Nov-19 04:36 PM

Oh, that's how I was reading an opportunity to do more teaser content. Sneak peaks of more conversations, early releases for the text of certain books, stuff like that.

1shoedpunk 18-Nov-19 04:36 PM

And the stuff your putting up can't really be Beyond Skyrim content

Bellatrix 19-Nov-19 03:31 PM

If it's something like Nafnaf does which is basically he has a cult following and people watch him do modding (including BS), play games and stuff that would be fine. Giving donors preferential access to BS content would be a step too far though. Potentially it could get us closed down if Beth ever decide to enforce the not making money off them T&Cs and it opens up a huge can of worms in terms of everyone on BS wanting in on the action.

Hannes821 19-Nov-19 10:10 PM

And people hate modders that ask for money to access content. Think about the fuzz with creation club. Maybe not representative, but still creating a bad public image. But a voluntary donation is absolutely fine I believe

Robcbwilson 01-Feb-20 06:40 AM

The Alinor team (the one that wants ultimately to join BS lead by Nipzo) is asking for permission to be given access to the BS heightmap so that they may include the Heartlands and IB in their LOD. Additionally, they request access to the BSSummerset heightmap.

Rubaedo 01-Feb-20 06:42 AM

Hrm

I confess I’m... skeptical about their project.

They’ve had more than their share of teething problems

I won’t vote one way or the other on this, but I’m inclined to lean towards no at the moment.

If they want to join bs, I’d rather see art, assets, and creative direction planning than anything else at the moment.

ub3rman123 01-Feb-20 08:52 AM

LOD is something they can add in much, much later.

Hayden 01-Feb-20 09:33 AM

I vote negative, if they want it they can apply to be a team

I also have no voting rights because I'm not a team lead

Can someone remove that pls

I'm not allowed to demote myself

Robcbwilson 01-Feb-20 09:46 AM

I think that @Larrian (Morrowind) is the only one who can demote you Hayden. Bard also needs to be removed as a Project Lead

Bellatrix 01-Feb-20 09:46 AM

Are they at a point where they need access to our lod? Seems unlikely...?

Sorry our files for their lod.

Robcbwilson 01-Feb-20 09:48 AM

From speaking with Klime, I think their primary request is access to the BSSummerset height map at this time (edited)

1shoedpunk 01-Feb-20 10:46 AM

They need to formally apply at this point if they want the heightmap

There is an open source one from transbot that they can use without our permission on the nexus

Hayden 01-Feb-20 10:47 AM

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/573?tab=description

All Tamriel Heightmap

This is the sixth Beta Version of Transbot9's All Tamriel Heightmap. It may be used by any mod project. Or for Minecraft. Or whatever - it can be used for any non-commercial project in any engine. All

Rubaedo 01-Feb-20 10:50 AM

I’m also somewhat less than confident in their ability as a team if they’re not designing a heightmap to fit their own vision.

Bellatrix 01-Feb-20 11:01 AM

Not sure till we see a proposal but if they want consistency with us via our height map then that says nothing about their technical capability or lack of it.

Rubaedo 01-Feb-20 11:07 AM

Consistency with our heightmap means much less on an island, imho.

Hannes821 02-Feb-20 07:39 AM

Hmm if it's just lod, from my point, it is recreation at any merge to master

But I guess it's less about meshes and more about landscape vertices.

But the difference between that hight map on nexus and ours should not be too noticeable right

Is summerset part of elsweyr?

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 07:44 AM

No, it isn't

Summerset is Alinor if I recall correctly

Hannes821 02-Feb-20 07:45 AM

Could such a height map be stripped out of bs files?

I mean theoretically

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 07:45 AM

It is part of BS

It could be separated, but that is not what is being asked

Hannes821 02-Feb-20 07:46 AM

Okay. Hmm I guess then the majority doesn't want to give access

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 07:46 AM

Yes, the majority is against

I cannot vote as I am part of the team

Hannes821 02-Feb-20 07:47 AM

I guess it's like giving out property and expecting a return value, or even, maybe for some, it shall only be used in house

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 07:48 AM

They are asking to use something that belongs to BS before they are part of BS

Hannes821 02-Feb-20 07:48 AM

Personally I am very open with outside projects, but I deeply understand concerns of progress

Bellatrix 02-Feb-20 07:48 AM

@1shoedpunk do you know how different the public height map is vs what we use internally? Presumably they were identical at some point?

1

Hannes821 02-Feb-20 07:49 AM

I didn't share atmoran assets with outside teams so far as there was never such a situation to "deal equally"

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 07:51 AM

So, given that the vast majority of respondents are against this proposal shall I tell them no or do we want to wait?

Hannes821 02-Feb-20 07:56 AM

Maybe someone else wants to voice their thoughts, but the answer will unlikely change. However, maybe we can at the same time give them hints on the hight map and some technical advice? Maybe we keep it in a fashion that this decision later, and compatibility, aren't compromised but left open.

The decision of. Their application that might be raised

For the decision itself weather or not to give out the height map, I think mainly it's the call of the heartland province leads

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 07:59 AM

No, it is a decision for us all

The Council is one group

Hannes821 02-Feb-20 07:59 AM

Okay.

Bellatrix 02-Feb-20 07:59 AM

I’d like to know a bit more about if using the public height map is a problem first.

1

Hannes821 02-Feb-20 08:00 AM

If it causes any issues

Bellatrix 02-Feb-20 08:00 AM

Because if you can use that then it seems like the easiest solution.

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 08:00 AM

I can certainly ask

Bellatrix 02-Feb-20 08:00 AM

I think 1shoe is the most likely to know if people here...?

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 08:01 AM

Oh you mean ask 1shoe

Sorry, got the wrong end of that stick

Bellatrix 02-Feb-20 08:05 AM

Well or if anyone on the alinor team would know if using the public heiggtmap would cause issues there’s no reason not to ask, it’s just 1shoe knows everything

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 08:10 AM

Will wait for 1shoe. Will give more people a chance to have an opinion too

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 08:19 AM

While we wait, I have more information regarding the BS Heightmap

They already have it. What they want is official confirmation they can use it

Bellatrix 02-Feb-20 08:52 AM

That doesn’t seem right...? Surely Larrian wouldn’t unilaterally hand out the BS heiggtmap? Are we absolutely sure it isn’t the one on nexus...?

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 09:11 AM

That is what they said

This is what they said when I checked again

Bellatrix 02-Feb-20 09:14 AM

That makes more sense! So do they need our height map or not...?

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 09:14 AM

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 09:42 AM

I am speaking to the Alinor leads and will have an update shortly for y'all

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Feb-20 09:45 AM

If this is the Alinor I think it is I made a heightmap for them

I spoke to Nipzo about it and then did it

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 09:45 AM

Yes, that is correct

They initially gave me incorrect information that made it seem like you gave them the BS one (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Feb-20 09:45 AM

Ahhh gotcha

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 09:45 AM

But that is not the case

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Feb-20 09:45 AM

yeah there seemed to be a bit of confusion about it!

Glad you got it sorted though

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 09:45 AM

Yes, indeed

While you are here, could you remove Bard and Hayden from this channel?

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Feb-20 09:46 AM

Yes!

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 09:46 AM

ta

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Feb-20 09:46 AM

I'll do it now

np

done

1

Hannes821 02-Feb-20 11:10 AM

ub3rman123 02-Feb-20 11:18 AM

Is there a cost to us other than the principle of the thing to giving them the heightmap? It's not really an asset that just any team can take up and re-release like tilesets and such. Having thought of it like that, I don't think there's harm in letting them use it.

1

Hannes821 02-Feb-20 02:52 PM

(agree if they need it)

Bellatrix 02-Feb-20 02:53 PM

Yeah probably agree. Not convinced they need it and also if it sets a precedent that we might come to regret but also don’t want to be an arse just for the sake of it.

ub3rman123 02-Feb-20 02:54 PM

Okay then, in that case, I have no objections to them using the heightmap (and only the heightmap).

Robcbwilson 02-Feb-20 03:02 PM

Do we need a unanimous vote for this?

Bellatrix 03-Feb-20 01:06 PM

Sorry, got distracted by the trainwreck that is the dev diary.

I think we probably do as it’s not any provinces area....? If it was access to headlands or Roscrea height map that’s clearly a province decision but this belongs to no one

Before we do though could we get some clarity on what exactly it is they want? TBH I’m not sure if they want our summerset height map or permission to use Larrians (which isn’t a BS decision, but do they know it’s not the BS height map...?) and do they still want access to additional areas now?

Robcbwilson 03-Feb-20 01:35 PM

This is what Klime said "They want me to do the same thing as I did with Black Marsh (that is, fix the sea level on their heightmap, then combine it with the existing BSSummerset worldspace so the rest of Tamriel is visible, then adjust the heightmap to fix any errors and make it LD ready)"

Bellatrix 03-Feb-20 01:43 PM

Ah. That makes sense. And is there a reason why it has to be our internal one and not trans it’s publicly available one?

I’m a bit hazy on if there’s any difference TBH.

Robcbwilson 03-Feb-20 01:44 PM

It has something to do with only being able to do it once (the joining of height maps)

Which is why they want the BS one so they won't have to do it twice

As it resets the LD apparently

Hannes821 03-Feb-20 04:47 PM

Yes. I see. It wasn't possible with ck to generate a world from texture only within or outside a certain frame or region right?

As far as I know only during the initial world building on ck32 you can use a map generator

After that you have to sculpt by hand

Robcbwilson 03-Feb-20 05:04 PM

Yes, as part of the initial process you can use I think it was World Builder or something like that

For erosion etc

Hannes821 04-Feb-20 04:02 AM

yes, and there are tools even to generate height maps based on google maps or normal maps

1shoedpunk 04-Feb-20 06:48 AM

The heightmap is only available to BS teams. They have to formally apply and be accepted for that to happen. That said Alinor is an island and there is absolutely no need for them to have the rest of Tamriel at the stage they're at

That was a condition Morcroft was always very clear on.

Like, the distance the rest of Tamriel is from it they could easily use Transbots map in whole and it wouldn't make a difference

1shoedpunk 04-Feb-20 08:49 AM

At this point they've been working as an unofficial official BS team for how long now? They're really past the point where they need to formally apply to continue the relationship.

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-20 02:25 PM

About six months or so

Since the team was founded

Meglos (Morrowind) 04-Feb-20 02:36 PM

My two cents on the whole Alinor thing is that unless they have a team that is largely comprised of non-bs members and/or a significant amount of progress to show off, announcing them as another BS team would probably be a bad look for us. I can just see the comments from fans wondering why we've got yet another province in the works when we don't even have release dates for the ones we've been working on this whole time.

Bellatrix 04-Feb-20 02:47 PM

I think it’s definitely something a lot of us worry about.

I’m a bit conflicted about this TBH. Don’t really want a new project until after we have a few more releases under our belt, but at the same time feel bad for saying no to the heiggtmap cos they’re not a BS team but then blocking the route to them becoming a team.

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-20 04:00 PM

They are not ready to join

I am sure the leads would say so themselves

There is no intention for them to apply until after Cyrodiil launches

Deleted User 04-Feb-20 04:05 PM

I don't get the feeling the reception for a new BS project would be so negative, who knows, for every person who says that, there may be four who are really excited instead. Not that I think it's relevant in taking a stance on this, just saying basically. But I also don't think us denying the heightmap could be interpreted as us blocking the way, either. 1shoed put it succinctly about its distance from the mainland not requiring a perfect heightmap

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-20 04:06 PM

If Transbots map would work as an alternative then that is a valid solution

Deleted User 04-Feb-20 04:08 PM

to be blunt, I take much more issue in there being two separate Summerset projects, that's an unbelievable waste of talent in my book

Bellatrix 04-Feb-20 04:10 PM

Are there two separate projects?

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-20 04:10 PM

There is one that is associated with ToN I believe

Deleted User 04-Feb-20 04:11 PM

yes, Auridon Isles

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-20 04:11 PM

But honestly, that is not our concern and is nothing to do with "our" one joining BS

They are going down separate paths

Hannes821 04-Feb-20 09:16 PM

It's just funny because nearly their hole team including lead was on our community server chatting. So one may assume we could talk with them and the other team to join efforts but then I believe their goals had been different. Yes, Claire, there had been already a huge discussion about this on dev server. I mean, needless to say, both teams have a few active bs members. I think i will ask them again what was the reason for the double game. I forgot

Hannes821 04-Feb-20 09:31 PM

In a nutshell.

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-20 04:04 AM

All attempts at joining the two teams failed. They want different things and as I said above are on different paths. Both teams it seems are content with the status quo

Hannes821 05-Feb-20 05:01 AM

Yes. We cannot ask them as they are volunteering. In fact we must be happy they also work on our projects as well

@Robcbwilson if you have any ideas how we can yet have them negotiate about cooperation and asset sharing, because I still have hope that when they have less to do, it will gain us more attention. But realistically, both projects will make a few people busy for years....

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-20 07:35 AM

Asset sharing will evolve along with the projects

Hannes821 05-Feb-20 07:39 AM

I guess so. We need a strategy to support strong teams and motivate developers not to distract themselves with new small projects. For the good of the existing teams, everywhere.

But there is only the offer we can make them

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-20 02:30 PM

So, what do we tell Alinor?

1shoedpunk 10-Feb-20 07:12 PM

About the heightmap? That they'd have to be a Beyond Skyrim project to use it but since they're an island they should be able to use Transbots for lod anyway.

Robcbwilson 11-Feb-20 05:11 AM

OK

Robcbwilson 12-Feb-20 12:17 PM

So it's a no on both the heightmap and the LOD?

Rubaedo 12-Feb-20 05:12 PM

Yes

Robcbwilson 13-Feb-20 07:53 AM

I have something else I need help with. I would like to add additional people to the Nexus page so that it can be refreshed after the Merchant mod release. I have asked to have more people added and was told that it is a Council matter. Does anyone have any concerns with trusted people being given access to the Nexus page?

ub3rman123 13-Feb-20 08:44 AM

No, I don't have an issue with that. Reducing bus factor is vital!

Bellatrix 13-Feb-20 12:40 PM

It’s never been a council matter in the past, so I’m not sure where that came from, but I’d have no objection (assuming we know they’re going to be responsible which I assume we do...?)

Hannes821 13-Feb-20 03:51 PM

Mrjgt said ao

*so

The pr team ofc should make sure it's people they can absolutely trust

I mean one or two people to polish up the nexus would be good

Robcbwilson 13-Feb-20 04:07 PM

Yes, MrJGT said we had to bring it to the Council so I did

It would be people like myself and Hannes

It wouldn't hurt to give someone from IB and Morrowind (a lead) access while we are at it as they are next aside from Roscrea and Atmora) in terms of likely releases

Hannes821 15-Feb-20 11:38 AM

are these all opinions? so its a PR team thing as before to appoint trustworthy people to do the janitor job on nexus PR team mods, especially the visual aspect?

and i think rob suggested already to include different teams

Robcbwilson 15-Feb-20 02:26 PM

I think we can assume given the fact we have only had two answers and they are both positive that we are good to go

Hannes821 01-Mar-20 10:32 AM

what do you think about the french translator group?

we didnt answer them for a while, and maybe it would help us?

Hannes821 01-Mar-20 12:52 PM

If i remember right then bs Charta says all mods are exclusively for nexus(and now Bethesda store for Xbox), so we don't want an upload elsewhere, however if they are professional French translaters, they could work on merchant mod French version. I guess we don't want to give them global permissions because it means no one else could make French translation. I am surprised enderal and others agreed to it. Yet having a other well made translation always quickly available would help I guess

Maybe we can invite them to create translations but explain that we don't want re-uploads or global permissions for an exclusive group of translaters... That would hurt the open community idea

If they don't want to, then there will be other groups to translate. However given their experience as it seems, it would be a first choice. I understand that they ask in general, if we are okay with having bs mods translated, so far I guess there isn't a reason against it, as we only increase our range and don't give away any rights

Bellatrix 01-Mar-20 01:18 PM

@1shoedpunk handles all that for us for Bruma. I think we might have let the Russian translation team upload somewhere else but that’s because the community largely uses a different platform to nexus (if I remember correctly!)

Hannes821 01-Mar-20 02:09 PM

Ah right

1shoedpunk 01-Mar-20 02:58 PM

Yeah, and it was their responsibility to keep it updated. We didn't promise them exclusivety but we did point other people their way.

The more people the mod gets to, the better

1

Hannes821 02-Mar-20 03:13 PM

so i think we welcome them to sit down and translate it to french, but thats not exclusive (if another french translation occurs, we would not bother shutting it down). Shall we suggest them to only publish the translation? or shall we allow them to re-upload mods as in the russian scenario you mentioned? And yes ofc, they should have responsibility to keep it up to date.

Robcbwilson 04-Mar-20 03:18 AM

I have had some complaints about people posting on top of other people's posts in the Outpost Showcase channel recently. Yesterday we had three posts in two hours which upset people who felt that their post wasn't given time to shine. Could we discuss introducing a cool down period between posts (six hours or so seems like a good starting point) to the Showcase channel?

Rubaedo 04-Mar-20 07:07 AM

That seems like a good policy to me.

Sol 04-Mar-20 07:37 AM

Agreed. That seems like a good idea.

Bellatrix 04-Mar-20 03:21 PM

TBH it seems a bit childish but if it’s going to avoid drama it’s an easy thing to do.

I’ve posted in Roscrea chat to ask people to leave a 6h gap.

Robcbwilson 04-Mar-20 03:28 PM

Thanks Claire, it will help to prevent drama yes as people were getting pretty heated about it

Bellatrix 04-Mar-20 03:29 PM

‍♀️

Bellatrix 04-Mar-20 03:39 PM

It is probably worth reminding people that it’s an unofficial for everyone to show off their work and they should get too primadonnay about it though

Cos frankly that’s happened to me loads of times and it’s a bit of a lame thing to be getting worsted about.

Robcbwilson 04-Mar-20 03:40 PM

I don't disagree. Yesterday was an unusual day as there were three posts in two hours

Bellatrix 04-Mar-20 03:42 PM

I guess it just depends on time zones - it’s pretty standard to get 2 posts a day on there. Sometimes more sometimes none of we’re in a quiet phase.

Bellatrix 04-Mar-20 03:52 PM

Have said we should try it for a while, but just FYI, the 6h thing is going down like a bucket of cold sick on Roscrea chat.

1

Deleted User 04-Mar-20 06:23 PM

those times when I saw multiple posts in quick succession I always assumed it was some kind of PR strategy to maximise attention in a certain timeframe, like, I don't know, those times of day/week/month it's most active or something... guess I was way, way overthinking it.

But it does sound like common sense to wait a bit

Robcbwilson 06-Mar-20 12:45 PM

I will do an @ here on the Outpost as we seem to be in agreement about it

Bellatrix 06-Mar-20 01:37 PM

In the dev room? It’s probably better to get us to all announce it locally as not everyone uses that chat.

Robcbwilson 06-Mar-20 01:57 PM

Ok, that works too

Bellatrix 06-Mar-20 02:22 PM

I mean we can do both but if it’s just the dev room people might miss it then drama may occur:)

Robcbwilson 06-Mar-20 03:42 PM

Good point

Sol 05-May-20 03:20 PM

Hey guys, just letting you know I'll be handing over my council seat for the AU to Ash, as I'll be leaving as an AU lead to focus on the projects instead. Deisabri is going to be my replacement in that respect.

CreatyChameleon 05-May-20 04:46 PM

Howdy folks! Happy to be here

1

Robcbwilson 05-May-20 04:55 PM

Welcome

CreatyChameleon 05-May-20 06:45 PM

Just so y'all are aware, at the AU we're working on building a bridge between Beyond Skyrim and the general Bethesda modding community as a whole right now. I'm talking to Kyle from Skyblivion about a possible partnership between BS:AU and Skyblivion, as well as the folks over at Thras. If all goes as planned, they'll provide several new developers as teachers so BS aren't the only people teaching everyone in the server. I want to make it more of a general modding school where people can learn more than just needs of BS. If the partnership moves forward, I'd like to remove Beyond Skyrim from the name of the server, though the AU would still be a Beyond Skyrim focused project. In that I mean we would still provide the framework and infrastructure of the server and lesson plans that are already in place. This won't only serve as a way to bolster the modding community as a whole, but it would help to make our reputation outside of our community server, as I've heard some negative things within other developer groups that I lurk in, though I have no evidence to prove otherwise. If the council feels this is amenable, I'd like to move forward with partnering third party projects with the Arcane University.

Overall we haven't seen very many students from the Arcane University make their way into Beyond Skyrim from their time spent learning over there. Opening the doors a bit more, and with the bolster of Skyblivion's community members as well, I feel we'll end up with more students that become developers who have a wider base of skill and more passion for the projects than people who join of their own accord with preexisting skills.

ub3rman123 05-May-20 08:52 PM

It sounds like a good idea to me. Would also cut down on replication of effort. And even if people aren't being specifically recruited to BS from the AU, they'll have been in our ecosystem.

CreatyChameleon 05-May-20 09:16 PM

Which is my idea behind it. Strangely enough, it would benefit us more by allowing people to take from the server for other teams.

ub3rman123 05-May-20 09:28 PM

Also, more people in one place is a good thing. Knowledge is contagious.

Robcbwilson 06-May-20 01:40 AM

I am also in favour of this idea. Sounds very sensible and welcome

Hannes821 07-May-20 01:29 PM

it was exactly what i hoped for AU, that our infrastructure becomes a defacto standard in the community for boosting cooperation, inspiration, efficiency and focusing knowledge. So i am very positive for this. However, i feel a little sad if we have to remove the name of BS. Do you think that without removing BS from BS:AU, other teams/3rd party devs might feel like they dont belong in?

oh, and first of all, heartly welcome from me as well!

CreatyChameleon 07-May-20 03:23 PM

Thank you! I feel still labeling it BS would alienate the 3rd party teachers, yeah.

Hannes821 08-May-20 03:08 AM

I asked Kyle since we are friends, he personally thinks that the name is no problem. I think it depends a lot on the personal preception, if non bs people have a positive or negative impression about the label. At the end, we do provide our strictures to help everyone and thankfully receive their input as well, so I do think that it would be appropriate to keep the name. This is only a formal thing, but at this point the majority of work is done by us, so why not. Our job should be to make the whole modding community feel comfortable working with us and inside au as one big team. It might be challenging in some individual cases who have had a history perhaps, but those should be the small minority. And our rules and our non bs teachers share should imply that everyone does get equally chances to benefit there, this effort to explain ourselves and our noble ideals to help other projects passively despite being beyond Skyrim and having our own interests should be provided. I would do my best to support you.

Bellatrix 08-May-20 04:47 AM

Yeah. I mean for me, if it’s a cross collaboration thing then great but have that as a separate entity outside of BS that we contribute to and shut the AU. Or have it still as a BS affiliated thing and keep the structure as we are now the half-and-half idea seems clumsy from an organisational perspective.

I really love the idea of cross collaboration though. I learned to mod from the TesAlliance tutorials so I definitely have a soft spot for good community resources:)

Bellatrix 19-May-20 01:43 PM

I just renewed the website ICAAN for 5 years. So we have the domain until at least 11th Sept 2025

CreatyChameleon 19-May-20 01:51 PM

Dooopppee

Bellatrix 19-May-20 01:52 PM

It was cheaper to do a bulk year buy than do it a year at a time. And let’s face it, I’m not blowing any cash on nights out or holidays at the moment

(edited)

CreatyChameleon 19-May-20 02:00 PM

entirely true

Hannes821 19-May-20 04:48 PM

thank you very much. sad that we didnt find a solution to share the bill yet.

open for it!

Meglos (Morrowind) 30-May-20 11:06 PM

@Team Leads I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are on this Pintrest stuff going on in the PR server - for those that are unaware, someone joined there earlier today talking about creating a BS Pintrest for marketing purposes. I checked out what they'd put together so far on Morrowind's page and found that it was wildly misrepresentative of our project, using outdated images and inaccurate descriptions. I asked that Morrowind not be involved in this effort since Pintrest is a bad platform for artists, often leaving their work uncredited and even leaving it open for art theft. I wanted to bring it up here as well, since I'm aware not everyone pays close attention to the PR server. I'd advise all leads to check out the lengthy 'marketing pitch' the person left in the server, as well as their projects' respective boards on the Pintrest itself, since the way it's all presented leaves me quite uncomfortable - I don't think this is the sort of PR effort that fits our project at all, and I'm worried that it might cheapen our 'brand', so to speak.

ub3rman123 30-May-20 11:07 PM

I personally don't like the idea because we already have dead social media platforms that need more attention.

Sol 30-May-20 11:10 PM

I dont like the idea of pinterest either for the reasons you said. It's a huge platform to pass around images with no credit and users can easily just take pictures and create new posts. It's likely that a lot of BS stuff is already on there and it would just add to the uncredited fire imo

Rubaedo 30-May-20 11:14 PM

I'm with uber here. We have a struggling presence on much more mission critical spaces like twitter and tumblr. Risking bringing on someone who doesn't seem to have much knowledge of the project for such an obscure task would mean far more effort going into managing them than they'd be worth. If they want to manage a fan pinterest, more power to them! But an official outlet would be a mistake.

Sol 30-May-20 11:16 PM

yeah tumblr is really an underused platform rn

Hannes821 31-May-20 01:03 AM

Maybe we do have people who are willing to take this effort to manage this representation. What we dont have is a target analysis and a real social media manager who prepares a social media strategy, which is usually a few dozen pages of text. At the moment, its a clash of opinions how PR reach is achieved, but there is no "work level debate" beyond initial arguments from our "experts". But, we can eventually (and should) consider someone looking into that. Getting the theory, the plan, sorted. Anyways, i have mixed feelings here, we have an interest to be present, but only if the artists agree and if the quality can be preserved. And the water signs should be a standard as they had been mentioned to avoid art theft. But i would like to add, that this new member here did try to explain himself in detail and seems willing to work for an appropriate presentation. Missing or wrong details are to be expected if one new guy on his own works on dozens of pictures he never saw before. I think this needs a strategy and guidance, but i dont think the notion itself is negative. https://www.pinterest.de/beyond_skyrim/ I do like the idea itself but i dont like if random pictures get uploaded (and without water sign) - yes, that would be a bad presentation. We should at least have a pool of previously shown pictures to pic from. Honestly, the 2 atmora pics there are horrible and this LD doesnt exist anymore as far as i know

Beyond Skyrim (beyond_skyrim) on Pinterest

Beyond Skyrim | Beyond Skyrim is a collaboration and framework for modders with ambitious plans to recreate lands outside the region covered by Bethesda's Skyrim game.

Bellatrix 31-May-20 01:15 AM

In principle I really like the idea, but it would have to be curated. I’m assuming PR have the capacity to do it?

Robcbwilson 31-May-20 07:06 AM

OK, so many points have been raised :) - PR have the capacity to work on Pinterest as RedSpectreNine is new and more importantly not on any BS teams so anything they do is not taking away from Dev time - Tumblr is at the moment a problem I am working to solve. I have asked multiple times (in multiple places) and no one seems to have a working log on for it. Assuming we can't get back in, we then have to decide whether we make a new one or not. - In answer to "struggling presence on much more mission critical spaces" I agree that we are not utilising these platforms as much as we should. That being said, every time PR are challenged (rightly) to post more content I ask the teams to provide more content and then it goes silent. If teams say to us for example "anything put on the Showcase channel is fair game and can be posted everywhere without further editing" then we will do so. - If the leads decide that Pinterest is a no go for BS as a platform then PR will of course take the boards down. The decision as to whether to proceed with it should be based on its suitability rather than other factors such as "dead platforms" as those can be dealt with by my point above. - Lastly, watermarks. I think we can all agree that everything that goes out publicly regardless of where should be watermarked.

2

Bellatrix 31-May-20 09:05 AM

Watermarks are a good idea, although not foolproof. Don’t know if everyone has heard but a company stole hug / roys Roscrean Mithiril armour design and is now selling it as a $55 plastic set over the interment!

Robcbwilson 31-May-20 09:06 AM

Yes, I saw that! Outrageous

Hannes821 01-Jun-20 04:45 PM

yes thats good. and what is in showcase can go out. maybe we can replace these pictures (for atmora) there

we will soon have new footage

CreatyChameleon 18-Jun-20 03:00 PM

Suggestion from the other triumvirate of the AU: How about an AU youtube channel for us to upload the lectures, talks, and classes to that we do in the server?

Bellatrix 19-Jun-20 07:27 AM

Think that’s more a discussion for the PR server than here. Whatever works best essentially!

Hannes821 19-Jun-20 08:53 AM

Yep.

1shoedpunk 22-Jun-20 12:29 PM

Just to clarify what is the current status of the Arcane University? It's no longer a part of Beyond Skyrim proper or is it still? And if it is who is the voting member since they got rid of a single lead role?

CreatyChameleon 22-Jun-20 03:22 PM

it still is BS

I'm the council member

hence why I'm in the chat and not Deis or Shin

Hannes821 22-Jun-20 04:44 PM

It should remain Beyond Skyrim. I think it's great if we defacto host such a broader community platform, but it should finally serve the teams. And I think it does now. A lot of recruits. Not so many for atmora, but in total

Finally as of, in the end. It did so before, that's not what I meant, I meant as consequence, even if it's more accessible now.

CreatyChameleon 22-Jun-20 04:50 PM

It will remain Beyond Skyrim. We're just allowing other teams to recruit from the server and bringing in additional teachers from other projects. I'd rather benefit the modding community as a whole rather than just us

Because just us didn't work.

1shoedpunk 22-Jun-20 07:23 PM

Yeah, sounds good. I just saw the conversation above (I know how out of date that is) and wasn't sure where things settled.

It looks very active and seems like it's going well, so good job @CreatyChameleon plus your other leads

CreatyChameleon 22-Jun-20 07:24 PM

I've been barely doing anything

It's mostly been Deis recently

I just gave a little push a few months back

1shoedpunk 22-Jun-20 07:25 PM

Still

CreatyChameleon 22-Jun-20 07:28 PM

c:

they've been doing great

but really, Deis is the face of the AU these days

Robcbwilson 23-Jun-20 02:11 AM

Yes, Deis is doing an amazing job

Hannes821 24-Jun-20 04:26 PM

i am so happy she is there. This is exactly what we needed imo.

CreatyChameleon 24-Jun-20 08:57 PM

She really is

I may be giving the seat to her in the future, depending on how the game goes

Bellatrix 10-Jul-20 01:48 PM

I’m not sure which project Mathy is on but someone needs to calm him down and point him in the direction of the charter.

1

Hannes821 10-Jul-20 02:44 PM

I think he had this righteous moment when he felt the need to defend someone.

But it's not appropriate

Bellatrix 10-Jul-20 02:46 PM

It isn’t an acceptable way for directors to behave under any circumstances.

If it carries on I will escalate it.

Robcbwilson 10-Jul-20 03:15 PM

Mathy is on BM

ub3rman123 10-Jul-20 05:08 PM

Uh, maybe my reading comprehension is bad, but what's wrong with the Argor's post that Mathy put a screenshot of? I don't understand what's going on here.

Sol 10-Jul-20 05:33 PM

Well. This is something to wake up to.

I've talked to Mathy and told him to back off.

Bellatrix 11-Jul-20 01:47 AM

@ub3rman123 not sure. I mean as 1shoe mentioned Awrisarn has been in Cyrodiil chat for years and not once mentioned feeling stressed or pressured and there’s not really been anything coherent off Mathy when people asked for clarification, so to me (perhaps wrongly) it more feels like a bard tribute act than a real problem.

Hannes821 11-Jul-20 02:59 AM

hey everyone!

Fireknight got promoted in AU and Deisabri asked me to give him dep lead role for dep lead channel

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Jul-20 02:59 AM

This isn't about Aerisarn I think

Hannes821 11-Jul-20 02:59 AM

thats alright right?

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Jul-20 02:59 AM

But I would really have appreciated Mathy being less abrasive about this, as well as actually communicating what the issue was

Hannes821 11-Jul-20 03:00 AM

i think its this moratorium talk, he took that personal for whatever reasons

maybe its the contextual interpretation of this word

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Jul-20 03:00 AM

I know vaguely what I think he's on about

Hannes821 11-Jul-20 03:00 AM

but if BM decides to develop a certain way, its their right to do so, and they could argue but the choice is clear i think

okay then i give Fire the role now

Robcbwilson 11-Jul-20 05:24 AM

Absolutely, provinces are autonomous and are free to develop in any way they see fit

Hannes821 11-Jul-20 09:10 AM

@Klime heya! ooh congratulations, you got promoted to director? i must have totally missed that, welcome here!

Klime 11-Jul-20 09:12 AM

I've been Technical Director of BM since late last October :p

Hannes821 11-Jul-20 09:12 AM

are you still making maps by the way?

Klime 11-Jul-20 09:13 AM

yes

I've been having a bit of trouble keeping them 100% updated over the last couple of months but they're still being updated (just more slowly)

Hannes821 11-Jul-20 09:17 AM

well, we are discussing showing atmora inside the big map now currently, so just in case, maybe i can talk with you the next weeks.

Klime 11-Jul-20 09:18 AM

Yep just ping me if you decide to and I'll set aside a bit of time to do it in

Hannes821 11-Jul-20 12:30 PM

understood, will do!

thank you

Robcbwilson 17-Jul-20 03:19 PM

C.Usonius has already been banned from the Outpost but does more need to happen?

These screenshots are from the Dev channel

Bellatrix 18-Jul-20 01:52 AM

I don’t know. I mean I don’t know what the charter says but personally, no one should have to put up with being harassed because of their religion whilst they’re modding for us.

Robcbwilson 18-Jul-20 02:11 AM

If they were an Elsweyr member, they would have been removed

Persecuting people based on their religion feels like something the charter should protect people from (edited)

1shoedpunk 18-Jul-20 11:41 PM

Unless there are some serious mitigating circumstances I would think a full ban is in order

1shoedpunk 19-Jul-20 12:19 AM

Was C Usonius made aware of why he was banned from the server? Did he have a response to it?

Robcbwilson 19-Jul-20 06:14 AM

I have asked the moderators these questions

Robcbwilson 19-Jul-20 06:24 AM

It looks like Deisabri dealt with the banning

Robcbwilson 19-Jul-20 06:44 AM

I would also agree that a full ban feels appropriate

Hannes821 19-Jul-20 10:29 AM

this attitude is not very cooperative, but rather self centered, which would support the view that it wasnt an exception

Rubaedo 19-Jul-20 12:36 PM

@here Is there a reason ssx is advertising Alinor and Thras in an official BS posting? I wish both projects well, but unless they are officially a part of the collaboration, advertising for them through official BS channels seems wildly inappropriate to me. https://imgur.com/gallery/mRaSJyd

The Beyond Skyrim Showcase Update for June 2020! The Largest Modding Project for Skyrim!

CreatyChameleon 19-Jul-20 12:36 PM

@Rubaedo They're part of the AU expansion

Cathnoquey should be in there too if it isn't.

Robcbwilson 19-Jul-20 12:37 PM

^

This is covering the AU expansion to include the partnered projects

Rubaedo 19-Jul-20 12:40 PM

I’d still warn that including partnered projects, which are not part of bs proper, isn’t an ideal choice in an official bs update. (edited)

I must confess that this feels very much like several projects getting the chance to associate themselves with Beyond Skyrim and receive the benefits thereof without needing to go through the rigorous process of joining us. I’m very uncomfortable with this.

CreatyChameleon 19-Jul-20 12:45 PM

Well you had about four months to voice your displeasure with it.

We aren't treating the AU as a waiting room to join BS anymore

Robcbwilson 19-Jul-20 12:46 PM

Plus the Imgur post was added ahead of time to the PR proofreading channel

As per process

CreatyChameleon 19-Jul-20 12:46 PM

It's been opened up to everyone, and we've partnered with other projects to provide us with some assistance in teaching.

^

Rubaedo 19-Jul-20 12:55 PM

I’ve been a bit busy extracting myself from a five year abusive relationship.

Robcbwilson 19-Jul-20 12:58 PM

SSX explicitly added am @ to Meglos in the proof reading channel for the Imgur post

Rubaedo 19-Jul-20 12:58 PM

I am not Meglos.

Robcbwilson 19-Jul-20 12:58 PM

I never said that you were

SSX added people who had expressed an interest in checking things on the post

Meglos (Morrowind) 19-Jul-20 01:07 PM

I checked the Morrowind section

That's all I was tagged for

Hannes821 21-Jul-20 05:00 PM

heyhey all! Tascani has said goodbye to active development but remains as advisor in our management. In his footsteps, woni is now in charge as technical director of the Atmora project. Tascani was always more leaning towards specific implementation tasks and tools. maybe you could promote woni for us, thank you.

(i cannot promote people to director on this discord, i think Meglos / larry can)

Meglos (Morrowind) 21-Jul-20 05:37 PM

Done!

Hannes821 21-Jul-20 06:02 PM

thank you

Woni 21-Jul-20 07:37 PM

Hello everyone.

Hannes821 22-Jul-20 12:13 AM

Welcome

Robcbwilson 22-Jul-20 01:25 AM

Welcome

Woni 22-Jul-20 03:53 AM

Thank you.

1shoedpunk 29-Jul-20 08:17 PM

@here advertising as part of the expansion is fine, but it's not really appropriate to advertise Alinor as trying to join Beyond Skyrim

They're a separate project like Skyblivion and that's fine, but that line does go too far in the association. It raises questions like why haven't we let them join and it does feel like its an attempt to circumvent the application procedure

The AU expansion is awesome and by opening it up to projects outside of Beyond Skyrim, it helps us share our knowledge and gives more people the opportunity to get into Skyrim modding and learn game development skills

But advertising Alinor as trying to join Beyond Skyrim just feels off. I like that there are other projects out there that are doing similar things to us or even the same thing in a different style. We don't have a monopoly on province modding.

Sol 29-Jul-20 08:46 PM

Yeah I agree with this. Collaboration is fine, but attempting to join BS should be an internal pursuit, not something that's advertised to the public.

1shoedpunk 29-Jul-20 08:47 PM

I mean I don't even mind if they say that stuff on Twitter or in their own Discord channels, but this is not the best venue. It's out there now though, just something we should be more mindful of in the future.

Rubaedo 29-Jul-20 08:58 PM

Exactly. It’s too close to advertising them as members of beyond Skyrim which feels very much to be putting the cart before the horse.

Meglos (Morrowind) 29-Jul-20 09:15 PM

I agree, it was very strange to see them included in some of our PR material as of late, since they aren't members of this project it would sort of be like Skywind adding BSMorrowind stuff to their PR releases

Hannes821 30-Jul-20 12:53 AM

Its maybe not something that must be discussed publicly. Its an internal strategy of that team. I personally am very welcoming to any team that has the standards, and i think its good for BS to grow; but maybe this information is not so relevant for fans yet; i understand though; in a more positive sense; maybe its a good advertisement by itself "going for high standards", so there is no liability of BS for Alinor or other projects, but a one-sided positive acknoledgement that BS is the quasi-standard for this community regarding expanding TES:5 Skyrim beyond its borders. So i kind of get the idea why Alinor would do that, simply to show members the strategic goals what they want to be like; and i do not see the damage yet, as off, Beyond Skyrim is a free entity and can decide for themselves if a project joins or not; i am very relaxed about the concerns that there might be external pressure influencing our choices; but i only speak for myself here.

Hannes821 30-Jul-20 01:08 AM

so we ask them not to promote this publicly, i guess.

Hannes821 30-Jul-20 01:35 AM

it should be clear that they did not get any formal promise or anything from BS yet

Robcbwilson 30-Jul-20 02:39 AM

I agree. It is entirely fair for prospective teams to market themselves in their own material as they see fit (including an intention to apply to join Beyond Skyrim). That being said, a mistake was made with SSX’s Imgur post as it is BS PR. We will ensure that this is not repeated

We should consider the AU in terms of PR now that it is larger than just BS. As it is now “independent” is it now allowed to promote teams as it seems fit or is it still beholden to BS rules?

Hannes821 30-Jul-20 03:15 AM

that is a good question. The AU was asking if they are allowed to make their own youtube channel with contents of skyrim modding, which might have overall a more positive impact in aquiring more recruits for the teams than our fan-oriented BS PR, but also, its strictly a different concept of content compared to what we do to promote our project game contents.

it could substantially promote basics and interest in modding for new people entering development

another advantage that i see is, that an "accident" in lower quality on these learning sessions does not fall back on BS; since we are very concerned with high quality standards for all departments, it opens up a playground for those who arent quite there yet but getting there, and most viewers will identify themselves with that situation

they can feel ease and fun modding and learning and get to the level we need them

Meglos (Morrowind) 30-Jul-20 03:26 AM

I think if the AU wants to be considered as its own thing, then it should make its own PR efforts, meaning its own Youtube channel, imgur showcases, etc.

1

Hannes821 30-Jul-20 03:29 AM

yes and we also should focus our resources on BS PR, and yet the AU being more present will have good effects for us, so basically they also work for us, but do it themselves

i dont think we have any interest in defining their PR at all, it should just be fun for these people to learn skyrim modding

Robcbwilson 30-Jul-20 04:02 AM

I agree that we shouldn’t define their actual PR, but there should be a discussion about boundaries (if any)

In early discussions about the AU and its PR, I suggested that it have its own YT channel etc

3

Hannes821 30-Jul-20 04:10 AM

maybe we formulate that they always consider BS as their partner and their goal is to ready people towards us and partner projects, as formal thing; so all actions they do run within the general "good behavior" and "intellectual property" ideas of the charter? I think such general meassures (politics, anti-discrimination etc) are being taken. Additionally, if they do work on BS assets as claim, they automatically agree the BS rules about giving exclusive usage rights to the teams?

CreatyChameleon 30-Jul-20 07:02 AM

@Hannes821 students are not beholden to the charter as members are. There's no reasonable method of enforcement for that, and the claims don't work as internal claims do. If they're of superior quality a team may use them, but generally it's for students' practice more than anything.

Robcbwilson 30-Jul-20 07:07 AM

Agreed @CreatyChameleon

If the BS team that owns the claim decides that the work is good enough to be included in their province then that is another matter

CreatyChameleon 30-Jul-20 07:08 AM

Yes, at that point it's effectively asking the student to join in a way.

Robcbwilson 30-Jul-20 07:08 AM

^

Bellatrix 30-Jul-20 07:28 AM

We probably need to formally separate the AU off from BS then? I mean if students aren’t covered by the charter, that’s fine but also it can’t be part of BS cos by definition everyone who is a member of BS is covered by the charter.

So how do you deal with complaints etc as an arm of BS if students aren’t covered by it?

CreatyChameleon 30-Jul-20 08:05 AM

@Bellatrix this has never been the case.

Ever.

Students are covered by the charter, but they are not beholden to it as members are like I said. We treat them with respect and civility, and expect the same

By definition, if they were beholden to the charter, they are members.

Outright.

Given that students are in fact not members of the umbrella, they are not beholden to the charter. We don't publicize it, and many current members don't even know what it is to be fair.

Meglos (Morrowind) 30-Jul-20 01:41 PM

Not sure how exactly you can be 'covered by the charter' but not be beholden to it at the same time, but all that's really being talked about here is formally separating the AU's PR from BS, because as it is being treated as a separate entity nowadays, it no longer makes sense to cover it in our PR material

Hannes821 30-Jul-20 03:13 PM

okay so we have agreement on that youtube channel thing now?

but i agree, its problematic, and we should resolve in the long run, you cannot have rights without responsibilities

either they can claim rights from the charter, but then they also have to fall under their legislation, or they dont.

and since they are not aware of it, this must be an active decision of the AU leadership if they suggest this to everyone, or not.

else, they can sit down and negotiate separate, hopefully similar rules with the partner teams

but thats not an issue of the council of BS

i think though, if students work on assets which are intended to (even just in a best case scenario) become part of a bs project, its clear that they do accept the usual rights; and that means they are still owners of their work, but they grant the respective project the right to use it exclusively if they want to until release

and i dont see a problem there, maybe they can still use it for portfolio applications etc. just not ship it on nexus

that would be counter-productive in my opinion

but let me know if i am wrong there

Robcbwilson 30-Jul-20 03:23 PM

Yes, yourself and Meglos are right. the AU PR and BS PR should be formally separate. We in BS PR will gladly give the AU assistance should they require it but they should be formally separate.

2

The AU already has rules which as far as I know have been sufficient so far to deal with any problems and I am sure they will evolve in time as the AU expands

2

Hannes821 30-Jul-20 03:26 PM

yes. i mean such an exception for taking claims aiming at BS teams, its kind of obvious/implied, and i think such a debate would not even occur, we are discussing meassures to prevent things that might not be relevant, just from a theoretical point of view.

Robcbwilson 30-Jul-20 03:26 PM

Any mention of the AU by BS in PR material will be about BS only and will not mention partner projects as that is not appropriate

BS claims are treated the same as any other if they are accepted by the team the claim is for if they chose to use them in their mod (edited)

Hannes821 30-Jul-20 03:27 PM

as any other AU claim or as any other team claim internally?

well, i guess partner projects will have a similar point of view.

so AU could call it "project specific claims" in general

Robcbwilson 30-Jul-20 03:29 PM

If an AU member takes an Atmora 3D claim for example and the Atmora team decides it is good enough to include in their mod then it becomes a BS claim

If it is for practice only then it remains an AU claim

Hannes821 30-Jul-20 03:30 PM

okay thank you, that clarifies it for me. its what i suggested.

3

Robcbwilson 30-Jul-20 03:30 PM

Or if it is not accepted by the BS team for whatever reason it also remains an AU claim

Rubaedo 30-Jul-20 03:58 PM

If the AU is no longer exclusively dedicated to Beyond Skyrim, it might be worth having a conversation about removing their council seats. I’m not sure how I feel about non-BS members having voting rights, especially given their collaboration with projects explicitly aiming for BS membership. It feels more than a little like a conflict of interest to me.

Robcbwilson 30-Jul-20 03:59 PM

I think that is also a fair point that should be discussed

Bellatrix 30-Jul-20 04:16 PM

Yeah. That’s my feeling too. I mean the AU is either part of BS or it isn’t. I don’t mind either way we just need to make sure who her it is we’re consistent.

Hannes821 30-Jul-20 04:16 PM

i admit thats true

unless of course, the leads of AU constitue that the AU leads are always BS or similar, but i think that will not be the case because it would be unfair towards partner projects in a way. One could argue they use our infrastructure, but i understood Ash doesnt want that

Meglos (Morrowind) 30-Jul-20 04:18 PM

Agreed, they seem to want to be more separate, and that's totally fair, but if they're not bound by council rules then they shouldn't really have council seats

Rubaedo 30-Jul-20 04:39 PM

Should we call a vote sometime in the next couple weeks or so? I’d rather not let an issue this significant just sit.

1

Robcbwilson 30-Jul-20 04:45 PM

All fair points and I agree that a vote now seems fair as it is in the forefront of everyone's mind

1

Rubaedo 30-Jul-20 06:31 PM

@everyone apologies for not being able to do a formal write up as I’m on my phone atm, but I’d like to call a meeting sometime in the near future to discuss the future of the AU. As it stands they’ve got some strong direction, but they’ve been distancing themselves from Beyond Skyrim, and are beginning to act as more of a 3rd party. In that case, it might be time to revoke council membership, as they’re no longer acting as a team within Beyond Skyrim.

CreatyChameleon 30-Jul-20 06:31 PM

AU leads are always BS members, regardless.

Hannes821 30-Jul-20 06:44 PM

it would be good (in my opinion) if AU is still part of BS (?) so we dont shrink, if that makes sense. But it depends on if it can be considered a BS team. Ah such theoretical debates.

Rubaedo 30-Jul-20 06:45 PM

If the AU is no longer acting as a BS specific team, than their leadership of the AU doesn’t necessarily grant them council membership.

ub3rman123 30-Jul-20 06:48 PM

I'd say council membership is necessary if they're subject to decisions of the council, and not otherwise.

Meglos (Morrowind) 30-Jul-20 07:07 PM

They did just say that their students aren't beholden to charter rules, and if that's the case, it seems like they'd prefer to be treated as a separate entity to BS. If so, there's no precedent for them having access to a council seat.

1shoedpunk 30-Jul-20 10:00 PM

When the amendment was passed creating the AU, it was designated as a Beyond Skyrim project, so the rules of the charter apply to all members and students. Keep in mind that the majority of the rules are in place to protect the rights of members.

1

That doesn't make all the members Beyond Skyrim members, but the rules still apply to them.

1

Other projects in Beyond Skyrim work with other modding teams like Skyblivion, so there's plenty of precedent for that

To be clear the charter always applied in a weird way to AU students. We recognize that they aren't members of Beyond Skyrim but the rules of the charter apply because they're taking part in a program that Beyond Skyrim runs.

1

CreatyChameleon 30-Jul-20 11:03 PM

That has never been the case, and if it was that was never made clear to the current leadership.

As far as I was aware, the students were not beholden to the charter because they aren't aware of it

Meglos (Morrowind) 31-Jul-20 12:14 AM

Not every full BS member is aware of the charter either, it's not like we take new recruits and shove it in their faces the day they join up, but the rules still apply to them and it's up to the leads to make sure everyone is acting in accordance, even if the charter itself is not brought up

Hannes821 31-Jul-20 03:53 AM

The arcane university as institution was indeed founded under the charter, and if someone doesn't know the laws, that doesn't mean he is not affected by them. There has never been a formal change. If the former au leadership was not aware of this and the recent leadership was not aware of it either, that's a combination of low interest on formal procedures and bad luck, individually. It doesn't change the intentions of the team and it's boundary conditions.

To get a bit into this, I was the last solo lead of au, selected by the other Hannes, mindmonkey, before me, given my investments. And I was aware of the charter. Later, a group of people decided that they could run the team better, by suggesting a few changes in the workflows, as triumvirate (I still don't like this autocratic term, but as you like), and I stepped down to allow young energy to take over and improve our team there, I was more a temporary emergency solution because my time focus is obviously atmora. Now, the new leadership did not discuss the charter to my knowledge. They have all been and still are beyond Skyrim members, what's more. I do not see a reason to believe anything changed.

CreatyChameleon 31-Jul-20 09:41 AM

Then they are beholden to it I guess. It make little sense to have them be beholden to it in my opinion, but if you tell me they are then I guess they are.

Hannes821 31-Jul-20 10:12 AM

you can start an internal debate if you guys think that this is a good status quo, of course.

but i think that most rules, as 1shoed says protect members and are on top of that very similar to the rules of other projects

so you would have the effort to internally set up similar rules, so for what would you do thatä

*what would be the goal or the improvement, would be my question

we try to give AU maximum liberty about their contents and processes as all our teams have

i think the charter is a consensus of minimal nettiquette and behavior etc for the most part

netiquette, sorry

ub3rman123 31-Jul-20 10:20 AM

90% of the charter is stuff that's only relevant for leads and miscellania like removal of members for bad behavior, along with use of assets created for BS. The parts applicable for non-leadership members is a general code of conduct, which I expected is applied to AU members anyways.

Robcbwilson 31-Jul-20 10:23 AM

^

Be nice to each other basically

ub3rman123 31-Jul-20 10:28 AM

So what part of "bound by the charter" matters here? Are the leads (BS or non-BS) bound by any specific tenets of the charter? Things like asset use permissions, especially.

CreatyChameleon 31-Jul-20 11:29 AM

The only leads in the AU are the members of the triumvirate

Asset use is one of the tenants we can't abide. The way we operate is very much so if a student makes a work, it is their work. Regardless of intention for use. If they take a claim from the board and make an asset or art piece of sufficient quality that the team in question says yes we'll take that, then the terms are between that team and the student in question.

The AU is effectively an open study hall. Since we opened the doors, we've seen a MASSIVE boost to membership and activity in all elements.

If you wish to close the door to the project on council, then you're killing a very large userbase from possibly becoming developers, as that would effectively be breaking the Beyond Skyrim partnership with the AU, at which point we would become an independent entity.

Because if there isn't a council representative for the AU, then we will not be bound by the same mantras, charters, or regulations established for teams.

Bellatrix 31-Jul-20 11:50 AM

That’s not actually true. PR isn’t represented on the council.

But it’s still bound by the charter.

So we’re just going round in circles cos it all really comes down to is the AU part of BS or not?

Larrian (Morrowind) 31-Jul-20 11:59 AM

I think the AU should be like the PR dept. is, but almost inverse. The PR dept. is beholden entirely to BS, the AU should be an arm that bridges the gap between us and other projects, as well as helping and educating modders

whether that necessitates council membership or not isn't super clear - I'd say it doesn't, just as the PR doesn't, especially if other projects are so heavily involved, but it isn't up to me

which isn't a sleight against the AU btw, because you've been doing great work over there for sure

1shoedpunk 31-Jul-20 12:08 PM

How you're describing claims is always how it's worked with the AU. If a student does a claim and it's for the use of one of the teams the permissions rules apply and it's a Beyond Skyrim claim. If that person just does the claim for educational purposes and it's not a Beyond Skyrim claim then it's just something that person did and shared

The corner case is if it's heavily based off concept art from another member

The stuff done within the AU is for educational purposes primarily

CreatyChameleon 31-Jul-20 12:41 PM

Exactly.

The AU has improved relations between BS and other projects immensely since we started reaching out and opening up. We've gotten several Skyblivion members who decided to join BS (from what I've heard, I'm not really keeping track), supposedly as a result of the AU opening up.

If there isn't a council seat, that's fine but that calls to question the purpose as to why we had a seat in the first place then.

We are operating exactly the same way we have been for the last two years, just now we've opened doors and have been teaching alongside some of the best modders around, absolute wizards.

If that constitutes a removal of the council seat, then I think the AU should just be entirely separate, and BS would simply become another partnered project, rather than a sponsor.

Bellatrix 31-Jul-20 12:46 PM

Yeah that’s the whole point. If you say you aren’t part of BS apart from the leads then it makes more sense for it to be a stand alone entity. But like TRS alliance which had some amazing tutorials back in the day...

CreatyChameleon 31-Jul-20 01:45 PM

Many of our teachers are BS members

Anyone that is a member of BS is a member, but those that are on Skyblivion, Skywind, or other partnered projects obviously aren't, and aren't subject to the same regulations, though they obviously will still be following the spirit of the charter

Robcbwilson 31-Jul-20 01:51 PM

Could the current rules be expanded (if required) to cover the same ground as the charter but without the complexity?

And with any un-necessary parts obviously not used

Hannes821 31-Jul-20 03:58 PM

Under the charter they are the owners, too.

I think ash, from reading your answers, there are some misunderstandings

You will find that skyblivion and the others have the exact same rules for social behavior, if not even more strict.

And that they apply to everyone already because they are on the discord, because it's really netiquette, should be clear, it's nothing that has to be defended against, because nothing is being taken away.

It's not a liberty to behave hostile etc

And that's what we talk about

Defacto, no matter if the charter applies or not, the situation and behavior expectations would be the same

It's a very theoretical debate

And the council seat, it was spontaneously added when the triumvirate first took au leadership, critizising that I was appointed and not elected, but in fact they hadn't been elected themselves. Just saying, I don't remember any formal vote to add a seat for them ever

But that's a different topic

We decided that it's great to have more au work being done

And that the Youtube channel shall finally start! I am very excited and wish you the best and will support you as much as I can as I did before

If you think there are any points in the charter that could be an issue for partners, then point them out and make a charter for Au without these and get it voted in au or however you deal with such issues.

But I don't see the point in this defensive position

Sol 31-Jul-20 07:39 PM

If I recall, the AU council seat was added in the Bard investigation and not before, which Hugh initially held. Since then it's just sort of stuck around. (edited)

Hannes821 01-Aug-20 07:49 AM

Okay I forgot this already

Woni 02-Aug-20 04:38 AM

What if the next Triumvirate has to be someone who isn't in BS? and who doesn't want to join? That may happen after the expansion. I don't think it's a good thing, after the expansion, to force BS membership to become triumvirate. Maybe we could, in the continuity of what some of you already suggested, use a (very) simplified version of our charter for AU and therefore remove their council seat? Of course, it depends if you really want to keep it into BS. (edited)

The AU will still be a place for all the projects to meet.

Bellatrix 02-Aug-20 05:38 AM

I honestly think with the involvement of other large modding teams etc it sounds like the AU has outgrown BS and probably ought to become its own standalone entity. I mean at the point AU PR becomes separate from BS PR that’s effectively happened anyway and the points Woni raises are good ones. May as well do it now on good terms than have it turn into a mess at some point down the line when a non-BS member becomes (or can’t become) a lead.

Hannes821 02-Aug-20 06:05 AM

ah okay. maybe i am naive thinking that we could just keep it as it is. If AU promises the teachers equal chances on AU lead, that means defacto what you said. And if they dont, then some of Ashes concerns of a 2 class system might be true, which might not be beneficial either. Anyway, i think they should consider talking about their own position inside AU (?).

and, i dont think that AU PR being separate from BS PR is necessarily a reason for separation either; we promote the projects, and they promote their teaching and training, work in progress and life classes. Its different in nature so i dont see a rivalry there.

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Aug-20 06:10 AM

Agreed, Claire, I think it would be for the best

Hannes821 02-Aug-20 06:11 AM

*live

i would love to keep everyone in one team, but woni makes goods points. I dont know how we would resolve such a situation

Woni 02-Aug-20 06:53 AM

I think it's a success that the AU launches out of BS.

Hannes821 02-Aug-20 07:39 AM

Yes it is, actually.

Hannes821 02-Aug-20 03:25 PM

I don't know if this organistorical freedom for Au would really benefit them, but how is it for us as Beyond Skyrim? Not as council but as modding community? Do we "give away" capacities? Or can we be sure about great cooperation in the future? I think so, I am a big fan of the current au leadership, and it's their mission to train modders for teams, but such understanding changes over time. Then, we talk about a treaty between two entities, we talk about formal external relationships, and who is judging these in such a hobby sector? It seems like it might make things even more complicated than having some basic agreements in house. I am a big fan of automeous teams but also a uniting frame and goal, and I am against "outsourcing". They profit from the direct contact with teams and we profit from direct contact with students, and this is how it might work out best. Defacto, we could consider talking directly with partner projects of au about such a "stripped down version" of the bs charter, which can contain what skyblivion and everyone agrees on. For the leadership issue, I am sure we could find a way as well, for instance that we say the one au lead who has a council seat now must be a member of bs. Bs teachers are still 90%, so demanding that one lead of the 3 is actually from us is more than acceptable for partner projects, so they could be organistorically intergrated. Furthermore they could send their other leads to the management board of partner projects. This could unify us whilst keeping our ideas unique.

*Autonomous teams

I meant that 90% of the teacher staff is bs, so finding a candidate for 33% of the 3 seats should be doable.**

If we think about what this could mean, then maybe in the future we see more cooperation between dev teams with assets and know - how as well.

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 07:25 AM

i would like to add another point into this discussion.

so far, AU members made it very clear internally and towards partner projects that AU is an entity of BS, talking about leads and teachers alike.

this should be considered.

the whole discussion about the youtube channel was just started in terms of how to cooperate with BS PR, but showing contents for modders, not for fans of the finished game, eg, how to incorporate a second channel for the same public identity, for a different audience

and, furthermore, we have a responsibility to unite the community in general to amplify our potential to make such huge mod projects possible at all.

ub3rman123 03-Aug-20 09:26 AM

What's the preference of the AU leads, staying part of BS or going independent? I'd go with whichever option they think they can best operate under.

Bellatrix 03-Aug-20 09:33 AM

It prefer to open it put it teachers as well. TBH the AU has changed a lot under the new leadership. I didn’t know we had claims and teachers from non BS projects for example until we started this discussion.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Aug-20 09:34 AM

I don't see why we don't hold a council vote on this

it seems we've all got good points and it has been civil so far so I think it would be a good way to put a book end on the issue

ub3rman123 03-Aug-20 09:45 AM

Can we get input from the AU on what they'd best work under first then?

Bellatrix 03-Aug-20 10:05 AM

Yeah.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Aug-20 10:06 AM

Yeah that would be good

1shoedpunk 03-Aug-20 12:18 PM

I think it can go either way, but asking that the three leads of the AU be Beyond Skyrim members isn't unreasonable. Even if they're from other projects, they would have Beyond Skyrim membership also.

Like, being leads of the AU would mean that they are also leads of a Beyond Skyrim project, since the AU is one

1

Meglos (Morrowind) 03-Aug-20 12:22 PM

Yeah, I think the real question here then is if the AU is a BS project

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 12:38 PM

By the same definitions as the rest? I don't believe it would be considered a BS project, because we aren't a project really.

We're a resource

Publicly utilized

That's how I'd define it.

Personally, I would like for the AU to stay within the BS umbrella to help maintain the bridges and relations we've built over the last few months. It's mutually beneficial in others ways as well. We wanted to started the AU YouTube simply as a hosting grounds for the lectures, tutorials, and classes that we make as we go along.

1

We're more than happy to enforce Triumvirate to be BS members, I'm pretty much just an AU BS member at this point, not really doing anything for other projects, and nobody seems to complain about that, so in the event someone that isn't internal is promoted up, they would just be an AU BS lead

If it's the power being given out that concerns you, you can rest assured that we will only be allowing the most dedicated, trustworthy folks in the AU to be leads. I'm personally considering handing the council seat over right now and then stepping down, but I want to see at least this talk through before I do so.

Firenight has already accepted the seat, in the event I do decide to hand it off.

So far, everyone is happy with the structure, and we've been very adamant and public that the AU remains a Beyond Skyrim project in all of the talks thusfar. Deis was considering renaming it away from BS in the teachers' lounge, as you saw above, but she's been taking charge very much so.

At times too much, but that's an entirely separate thing.

ub3rman123 03-Aug-20 12:45 PM

Okay, if the AU wants to remain a BS project-thingy, I'm happy to keep it as such. What was the vote supposed to be for?

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 12:46 PM

Whether or not the council wanted us to continue to have a seat at the table, I believe.

ub3rman123 03-Aug-20 12:47 PM

Well, since council decisions would theoretically continue to have an effect on the AU, I'd be in favor of the AU having a say in council decisions.

1

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 12:48 PM

Personally, I believe it to be a good idea, given how much the AU is now in the public spotlight, and how much we're dealing with third party developers. Removing the seat and making us unaware of the internal workings of Beyond Skyrim would be effectively severing the connection, and you would be losing a very valuable resource for inter development relations. We are very independent compared to many, if not all, of the projects under the umbrella. The recent changes have been what the AU has been working towards for two years now, and only since the leaving of the old guard have we been able to effectively make said changes.

Those are the end of my words. If there is anything that needs clarifying or you would like for me to expand upon, just ping me.

Bellatrix 03-Aug-20 02:59 PM

I’m that case PR should get a council set too. It’s really inconsistent if one does and one doesn’t.

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 03:25 PM

I would agree that PR should get a seat personally. They're doing so much of the lifting for all of us, yet they don't get to know the core workings? That seems strange.

So we have one council vote, yes will add a seat, no will remove a seat. Do the PR / AU teams necessitate a council seat? I will obviously be abstaining, given my vote on the matter would be biased. We've had our discussions, but if we'd like to continue debating that would be fine too.

Meglos (Morrowind) 03-Aug-20 03:39 PM

Since PR only exists to serve the projects and is already composed and led by members who are also project leads, I don't think that would make too much sense

It's a bit different from the AU in that regard

Bellatrix 03-Aug-20 03:46 PM

The ‘led by members who are also project leads’ is only due to luck at this moment in time. There’s no requirement that it be the case.

I don’t really care which way it is but if the AU has a seat, PR should top or vice versa.

Meglos (Morrowind) 03-Aug-20 03:52 PM

Both teams have very different functions though, the AU is a team in its own right with its own goals and internal hierarchy, the PR department is just something that exists to promote BS material, it wouldn't function as a standalone team, so it doesn't make much sense for it to need a representative on the council

Anyway, this was a discussion about the AU, so let's not get too off-topic

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 04:14 PM

i got the feedback that everyone wants to be BS in AU @CreatyChameleon

i dont know, you should probably talk to your comrades there

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:14 PM

I also already knew this.

I'm not sure what you're reading, but I'm also saying we do.

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 04:14 PM

really, some say they leave AU if its not BS anymore

i think we could produce a high damage without reason here and must be careful

okay good

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:15 PM

that's also part of the problem that I'm seeing. We'll lose a large number of teachers and students

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 04:15 PM

then i missunderstood, my bad

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:15 PM

Yeah I'm very much so saying AU is BS and changing it would simply be detrimental to everyone involved. (edited)

1

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 04:17 PM

@Bellatrix we didnt add a PR seat because Rob was holding it right, and we could not give 2 seats to one person?

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:17 PM

It would undo all of the work we just did to partner with other projects and bridge the gap BS has had between other teams for years now.

It could look as if BS doesn't want to be involved with other projects at all, which is very stinky

Bellatrix 03-Aug-20 04:18 PM

Only if you’re paranoid.

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:19 PM

Given how fast the pull out could be, it certainly could have that look, especially with how tentative some of the folk were when we first started suggesting it

Bellatrix 03-Aug-20 04:19 PM

If the AU does stay, it needs to clear up when the charter does and doesn’t apply and also how you deal with none BS teachers wanting to become leads in the future. Otherwise both will come back to bite us on the arse at some point.

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:19 PM

Non BS teachers wanting to become Triumvirate would then become BS members.

Like I had stated previously.

Bellatrix 03-Aug-20 04:19 PM

Is that in your charter?

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:20 PM

No, we don't have an official charter as far as I'm aware.

For the AU specifically. (edited)

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 04:20 PM

I thought the charter is cleared, that it applies, not only formally because we think so, but also materially because most members and teachers will think so, too. And that rule could be added.

Bellatrix 03-Aug-20 04:20 PM

The PR dept does. AU probably did if you go back in time.

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:20 PM

We can add the provisions for non-current BS members becoming leadership if that'd be ideal.

I was never told nor given a charter. If the AU has one, it is long out of date and needs to be redone anyway.

It almost certainly no longer reflects the current atmosphere, beliefs, or goals of the Arcane University.

Bellatrix 03-Aug-20 04:23 PM

I guess one shoe might know. The PR dept charter sets out clearly what the OR dept can and can’t do. Any changes to it require a council vote. It stops mission creep and stuff like what’s happened with the AU from happening without us realising. Not that what’s happened with the AU is bad, it just means that there’s some rules to clear up.

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 04:24 PM

wasnt there a formal decision to open up for other projects a few months ago? But i second you, it all should go down the regular ways, which is why we have rules, to prevent struggle between people and projects.

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:24 PM

We gave you plenty of warning and formally outlined our plan quite clearly. (edited)

It was even put to a vote which was allowed to pass.

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 04:25 PM

yes, i think we did discuss this opening up of AU deeply before it happened.

if i remember correcly, here

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:25 PM

None of what has happened within the AU has been out of thin air. We've gone through every procedure, rule, and regulation to ensure we did it by the books.

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 04:26 PM

i think claire meant that the change of the charter for a part of BS would need the council, if you add or change these rules.

Bellatrix 03-Aug-20 04:26 PM

I have absolutely no memory of this....? Was it in their channel?

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 04:26 PM

not so much AU policy

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:26 PM

It was in here.

Several times

I even DM'd individuals about it.

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 04:26 PM

lets just take a break and read up, at least for me

Bellatrix 03-Aug-20 04:26 PM

But yeah. It was more around why you need a charter.

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:27 PM

I understand the need for a charter and have already alerted the other Triumvirate

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 04:28 PM

so we had this at the 22.06.2020 "it remains BS, we just bring in new teachers and students"

And on 6th of May, too

Bellatrix 03-Aug-20 04:29 PM

Errm can someone point me to the vote though cos I just searched for AU and teacher and got 8 hits. None of which were relevant.

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:29 PM

I asked if it could be put to a vote, people agreed.

Not sure if I used the specific words, but nobody aired grievance or denied it for several months, so we moved forward.

Only recently has a stunk been raised, and like I said it feels like it's a personal issue with what we have done.

We gave plenty of time for these talks to be ceased, for the idea to be shot down, and for people to request details on it and nobody did.

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 04:31 PM

i think its the proposal of 6th of may which didnt get any counters.

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:31 PM

Sixth of may is getting no hits from me

Are you sure it isn't 5th of June?

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 04:32 PM

its a basical issue, we should make everyone pings and quick votes with thumps up or down on such matters, but such procedural issues cant be hold against people applying for something, especially if they are new, when all of us actually slept over it

please allow me to take a screenshot of our conversation here for clearance

it was exactly after you joined the channel

and then we discussed if it really alienates partner project people or not

quite similar to the recent discussion

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:36 PM

Yes. Like I've said before, there was plenty of time for grievances, questions, concerns, and vetoes but none were filed.

Bellatrix 03-Aug-20 04:46 PM

I think the issue is when we were on DC there was a formal vote process. This just kind of didn’t happen. I guess there’s nothing we can do for now but it needs to be more like the old DC process for future votes. I had no idea we were supposed to be voting.

1

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 04:47 PM

I presented it so the council would decide if it was vote worthy. Apparently it was and y'all missed that.

Hannes821 03-Aug-20 06:43 PM

yes on any decsions lets make a ping, type vote/opinion and then

we should formalize this again

1shoedpunk 03-Aug-20 07:55 PM

The AU and the PR Department were both amendments to the Charter

At the time the AU was given a seat, but with the amendment for the PR department we felt like it wasn't necessary

At this point I see a couple options for a vote. PR gets a seat or AU loses a seat and status as a Beyond Skyrim project.

Status quo is recognizing that the AU is a Beyond Skyrim project and the leads are leads per the Charter and covered by its rules

I'm fine with status quo

CreatyChameleon 03-Aug-20 08:32 PM

Status Quo also ensure the AU doesn't die and all of our hundreds and hundreds of hours of work don't go to waste.

ub3rman123 03-Aug-20 08:33 PM

Sounds good to me.

Larrian (Morrowind) 03-Aug-20 11:56 PM

What I don't understand is why the AU would die? The AU outgrowing BS I don't think is a bad thing

if the AU is beholden to the charter, then why could the AU partner with other non-BS projects without any council discussion? My concern is mainly the precedent that sets

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:00 AM

Because you all were negligent in checking this channel for three months. There was plenty of opportunity for council discussion and it didn't happen. That isn't our fault.

That's on you.

The AU would die because half of what brought the other projects into the fold in the first place was that it was partnership with Beyond Skyrim, not just the AU. Many of our teachers and students would leave if we weren't a BS project anymore.

Again, there were months before we moved forward with the partnerships. It isn't our duty to keep reminding you to check this channel.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:22 AM

We haven't outgrown BS at all. We still have BS infrastructure, we still rely on BS hosting, the BS Wiki is where we host all of our information, most of our teachers.

There is no reason to remove it from BS . Doing so simply shoots you all in the foot because we would lose 80% of what is there, and what has been established.

We've gained more alumni in the last month since we opened than almost an entire year combined.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 02:31 AM

I think if we all managed to miss that there was a vote, both sides need to look at how communication can be better. You definitely need to tidy some things with the governance up or let us see it if it already exists so they don’t become a problem in the future.

Main ones are who is a member of BS. How complaints are dealt with even if the members aren’t formally BS members and who owns the work. Our charter as it currently stands would imply that we own any claim. But that’s clearly not the case (or morally shouldn’t be) if it’s worked commissioned by another projects.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:32 AM

How could I be clearer than "if the council finds this amenable"? That is very clearly requesting a vote of the council.

Only leads are required to be members of BS at this time. Requiring teachers to be BS with the current systems would be unadvisable and could come across like we're trying to take members away. We guarantee the individual rights of all teachers to represent their projects by their charters, but also within our rules. Students are not governed nor owned in any way, and as such their claims remain theirs unless the team they make a claim for requests said item, at which point they strike their own deal.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 02:35 AM

So stick it in a word document, pin it to the AU discord and here.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:35 AM

Complaints are dealt with just the same as the community server moderation team for students. For teachers, they go to the Triumvirate or to eachother and manage it civilly.

No ownership is claimed over anybody within the AU, and it is going to remain that way. These are people volunteering their time to learn how to mod, and we're volunteering ours to teach them.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:36 AM

No one is arguing that that should change

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:36 AM

They may decide they don't like it, and they may decide not to come to BS altogether and that is entirely okay.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:36 AM

We're simply discussing the relationship the AU has with BS, that's all

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:36 AM

We've opened the doors as a means to better the community as a whole.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 02:37 AM

So you need to make that explicit because the bit about ownership is the opposite of what our charter says. Because it wasn’t an issue when it was written.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:37 AM

The relationship remains unchanged. The only difference is that other projects are allowed to teach and to recruit from the server.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 02:37 AM

No it has changed.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:37 AM

Claire, I've been teaching in the AU for well over two years. Ownership of students' work has never been a thing. Period. (edited)

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 02:37 AM

Which is why you need some governance in place to deal with it.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:38 AM

Can you make an itemized list of grievances please?

At this point I'm getting 12 conflicting issues and it's frustrating.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:38 AM

Just because the AU has changed doesn't mean its relationship with BS hasn't, you can't honestly argue that bringing on board other external projects doesn't change the dynamic

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 02:39 AM

I just did. You literally need to write down how you deal with the items I listed.

And they aren’t grievances. They’re just ways to safeguard what’s now a more complex arrangement.

Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 02:41 AM

Pinned a message.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:41 AM

Let me retype then for my own clarification. I've got a lot on my plate and this has been very very frustrating. - Statement of ownership over IP - Clarification regarding leadership - Complaint dealing remains unchanged from standard charter.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 02:42 AM

Yep. And make sure everyone on the AU is aware. Doesn’t have to be a big deal. Just pin it and point new students in the direction of it.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:43 AM

Students have no need to know how the behind the scenes works. They aren't members of the project, and shouldn't be treated as such. They're effectively community members. The only team members are teachers

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 02:43 AM

Yes they do. They need to know what happens if something goes wrong.

2

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:44 AM

Anyone from anywhere can join the AU. Can anyone access the charter for BS as it is?

Is it pinned in public channels?

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:45 AM

I'll put it this way - the AU has been mired in inactivity for a long time and I think that what you and others have done to revitalise it is a positive. But the AU is (in part) a resource, and changing the way BS taps into and supports that resource without actually communicating what those changes are in a concise and honest way and then enacting changes regardless doesn't really help promote the image that the AU wants to maintain a mutually beneficial relationship with the rest of BS.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 02:45 AM

You know what I’m not sure. Yes when we were on DC, but I don’t know what the permissions are on the document currently. Again, you can just pin a link to it in the AU discord. Cyrodiil and Roscrea have this. It doesn’t need to be a big deal.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:45 AM

The dev server has the charter somewhere I believe

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:46 AM

That's not the same.

Which is my point.

Students are simply community members who show an interest in learning.

They have no need to access the charter if it isn't in public hands already.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:46 AM

Except they're not just community members, because projects can and do view those community members as potential members (edited)

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:47 AM

BS can tap into the AU just the same as it has before. Nothing has changed with that process. It comes down to the students for a willingness to join the projects. They aren't property, and they aren't just resources.

They're people.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:47 AM

Yes

exactly

they're people, not 'just community members'

so they have the right to know what is going to be done with their work

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:48 AM

I was very up front and honest about what we were doing, and what the plan was. Again, you had two months to ask questions about the plan, air grievances, etc, but nobody did.

Nothing is being done with their work though. (edited)

That's what I've been trying to say this entire time.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 02:48 AM

My problem is. What happens is a student has a complaint that’s not solved by speaking to the teacher. At the moment your hiding what they can do if they have a problem from them.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:48 AM

Their work is theirs and theirs alone.

I'm hiding nothing.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:48 AM

yes it is theirs alone, and that right should be protected

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 02:49 AM

Yes you are. You just said they don’t need to see the charter.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:49 AM

They talk to a teacher. If it isn't resolved, they talk to the Triumvirate.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:49 AM

by making them aware that it's their right

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 02:49 AM

And then what....? They take it to us is what.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:49 AM

Have you checked the rules in the AU since we updated it?

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:50 AM

anyone on Morrowind who wants to post their art etc. is told explicitly that at the end of the day their work is theirs and they can do with it what they want to

and what if a teacher who is a non BS member has a problem with a BS member

how is that resolved

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:50 AM

By coming to the triumvirate or their applicable leads.

We don't have the same hostile environment other projects have.

It's very civil in the AU.

And we resolve things.

Publicly.

and quickly.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:51 AM

except the triumvirate doesn't represent Beyond Skyrim as a whole

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 02:51 AM

That’s irrelivent. It’s exactly the same on Cyrodiil and Roscrea. But the charter is there’s for the occasions when that can’t happen.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:51 AM

Does the council deal with every problem a BS member and a non BS member has?

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:51 AM

There are numerous new teachers who used to be members of BS but were either kicked out due to toxicity and behaviour or left for similar reasons

exactly Claire

because there will be occasions when it can't be resolved like that

if someone on Morrowind has an issue with a Cyrodiil member, or whatever, then it's brought to all of us here

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:52 AM

I'm going to bed because I've been travelling all day. Make a list of shit for me to get done and I'll fucking do it. I'm tired of talking in these dumb circles.

The problem here is you want us to treat students as if they're full members, which we will not do.

I refuse to.

They aren't members, and won't be treated as such. They're interested parties.

Once we start treating them as members, then they'll feel like they are owed something, it's happened in the past.

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 02:55 AM

We don't have the same hostile environment other projects have.

@CreatyChameleon I’m sorry, I’m just trying to catch up before I crash, but what on earth is being implied here?

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:55 AM

There's a reason we operate the way we do

@Rubaedo the toxic nature of many members whose talent has been deemed worthy enough of ignoring the charter entirely. Many of whom are members of the Morrowind team, and who have personally abused me in one way or another.

Who, if the charter was actually followed by anybody, would have been removed for their behavior.

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 02:58 AM

If you’re here to bring a formal inquiry I’d love to hear it.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:58 AM

I'm not

because I don't really care anymore.

about other projects.

We're here for the negligence of many of the council members here to actually inquire and read up on the affairs of projects as stated above.

Meglos (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:58 AM

This is the first I've heard about 'many Morrowind members abusing you personally'

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:59 AM

Yeah, because I haven't come forward about it obviously.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:59 AM

if there are people on our project abusing you then we'd like to know

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 02:59 AM

Yes, it’s our job to prevent such behavior

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:59 AM

I don't care to name them anymore, because I've been very public about my distaste and reasons for my distaste of members in the past. Many people have, and it seems to keep being ignored regardless.

Meglos (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 02:59 AM

How would you expect them to have been disciplined if you never came forward? We aren't omniscient

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:00 AM

If people have an issue they need to bring it forward properly

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:00 AM

Because we were fucking ignored and waved off any time we DID bring it up.

Maybe if the charter was actually fucking available and HANDED TO MEMBERS they would know how to. (edited)

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 03:00 AM

Please give specific examples Ash. We can’t rectify a situation without them.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:00 AM

But that isn't here nor there.

Meglos (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:01 AM

True, this is something that can be discussed another time and is drawing us ever further off topic

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:01 AM

No, because I'm very frustrated that I've had to defend myself and my team for A WEEK due to negligence on the part of leadership. Obviously none of you listen to this channel or what is actually said by members.

All of this could have been asked about months ago. Instead, it was radio silence for THREE MONTHS. I took the silence for abstinence, and we had four yesses. So we moved forward with it.

Then when it was publicized, people started making a stink.

It feels VERY much so like personal vendetta and I'm sick of it.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:02 AM

Except Ash it wasn't framed like a proposal it was framed as an idea bubbling under the surface. There was never any sort of proposal that I was aware of that was posted here

if you can provide evidence that you posted some sort of council proposal here and I and other leads ignored it then I will gladly concede

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:03 AM

Yet you asked no questions regarding it?

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:03 AM

I didn't personally, but others did

and actually I think I did participate in those discussions

no I didn't personally you're right

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:04 AM

Not until well after the partnerships had been started.

Nobody said a damn word. Until we actually started moving.

and that's what pisses me off.

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 03:05 AM

A vote was never called. For something this serious, you, as a council member, have a responsibility to take the initiative and present this sort of action as a formal proposal. This isn’t an internal shift alone, it’s a massive change to the way Beyond Skyrim functions.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:05 AM

There were no publicly available rules on HOW to present a formal proposal.

Anywhere.

I searched for days.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:05 AM

Ash. I’d just go to bed as you mentioned and come back to this tomorrow.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:05 AM

you could have asked?

and yes I'd agree

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:06 AM

Part 1: statement of purpose. Part 2: reason behind purpose. Part 3: request for council talk and vote. Part 4: further reasoning.

I thought I was very clear about it in the first place.

Robcbwilson 04-Aug-20 03:06 AM

Do we need a separate channel to talk about proposals that will require a vote?

Or some other mechanism

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 03:07 AM

No, no

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:07 AM

I don't think that's necessary

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:07 AM

Apparently it is.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:07 AM

we just need to be aware of it

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 03:07 AM

We do need to ensure that everyone is present.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:08 AM

On DC it was a lot easier because there was a specific thread for each vote and it was clear that it WAS a vote. We possibly do need something like that if votes are going to get missed.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:09 AM

My main grievance is that members like SpectralDragon and Kettlewitch who were in the past disciplined for poor behaviour on the project are now on the AU, if they're teachers and the AU is part of BS they shouldn't be

Robcbwilson 04-Aug-20 03:09 AM

It clearly did get missed

Meglos (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:09 AM

I'd suggest a document or spreadsheet of some kind

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:09 AM

you can't have your cake and eat it to

and yes some sort of formal mechanism would be ideal

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:09 AM

People change.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:09 AM

I'm sure they do

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 03:09 AM

If half the council doesn’t respond, I think that qualifies DMing them? Like we’re not hard to reach.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:09 AM

but it isn't up to the AU to decide whether they can come back on

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:09 AM

That sounds like a personal vendetta.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:09 AM

I have never interacted once with either of them Ash

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:10 AM

As it stands I didn’t have a clue it was a vote, and if the personal vendetta comments are aimed at me then I will be taking this further. You can’t make accusations without clear evidence. That absolutely is a charter violation.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:10 AM

It wasn't an accusation.

It was a statement of my personal feelings.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:11 AM

Of which you have no proof. Please stop throwing accusations around.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:11 AM

regardless of whether people change or not, employing people who have been banned is a violation of the charter

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 03:11 AM

Ash, if someone is banned by multiple teams, people wanting to be cautious about their return is not a personal vendetta. Imagine if we were a company, you can’t just rehire someone who was fired without raising eyebrows.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:11 AM

Exactly

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:11 AM

Claire, the proof is in the massive, 16 page arguments that occurred in the AU when they were brought back on.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:12 AM

from some members yes

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:12 AM

It was very much so a personal vendetta between members.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:12 AM

some members have a personal stake in it because there were instances of abuse

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:12 AM

Is there a list of members that have been banned from teams? Because I SEARCHED FOR ONE. I didn't find it anywhere accessible

We asked ahead about this. I reached out to folks. I have ensured EVERY. SINGLE. STEP. OF. THE WAY. That people were informed.

That it was public what we were doing. (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:13 AM

except we were engaging in the AU about getting these people on board!!

all of these concerns were swept under the rug

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:13 AM

They were never once raised.

About specific people.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:13 AM

except they were, I remember they were because I was there

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:13 AM

All I ever heard was "non-bs members" (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:13 AM

yes they were

Meglos (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:13 AM

I do recall this as well

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:13 AM

In this talk*

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:13 AM

there was a long discussion about kettlewitch

not in this channel

in the AU

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:13 AM

I'm specifically referring to this talk.

Yes, there was 16 pages of a screaming match about kettle, if i recall.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:14 AM

Errrm. It sounds like there’s been an awful lot of stuff going on that I (and I’m presuming half the council...?) don’t know about?

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 03:14 AM

^

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:14 AM

that was available on the AU teacher's channel I believe?

before it was locked from BS directors

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 03:14 AM

I’m not even in the AU server, I wasn’t informed of this at all

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:14 AM

yes so it should have been brought up here

but it wasn't

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:15 AM

Which is why I keep saying it feels like a personal vendetta. It always ends up coming back around to kettle, who has proven ABSOLUTELY invaluable in the AU, and has been brought back onto BS.

I wasn't a council member when he was brought on.

That's on the fault of the former AU counselor.

It was brought up there, and discussed, and passed.

Meglos (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:15 AM

Things like this are why we're having a serious discussion about the extent that BS rules play in the AU

Under BS rules, Kettlewitch would not have been allowed in

That's it

So we need to talk about how these rules apply to the AU

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:16 AM

Please find the specific section that refers to that, because most members were unaware of these events, and it had been talked about plenty in the past.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:17 AM

because if you want to be a BS project and want a seat on the council you can't go ahead and employ members who have been formerly banned or disciplined like that

you can't have your cake and eat it too

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:17 AM

You can raise that stink all you want, but the decision was made BEFORE I was council member. This is no fault of mine, stop blaming me like it is. (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:17 AM

who made the decision?

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:17 AM

Sol, myself, and Shin.

I brought it up, and it was cleared.

Sol was counselor for the AU.

Robcbwilson 04-Aug-20 03:18 AM

Not that it matters I am sure, but Kettle has expressed regret for what happened in the past and wanted to give back to BS to rebuild bridges

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:19 AM

Kettle is more than a teacher as well. He is a full fledged BS member now, because collectively it was agreed he was to be given a second chance. I assumed it was brought to council but apparently not.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:19 AM

I am open to forgiveness for sure but it was never brought up here

then it should have been

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:20 AM

I agree, but now that it has already occurred you can stop blaming me as if I made the sole decision.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:20 AM

I never did

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:20 AM

If very much came across that way.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:20 AM

stop acting like I have a personal vendetta against you Ash because I promise you I don't nor have I ever

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:20 AM

I know you don't Larry. That's not what I meant and I apologize.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:20 AM

and I'm frankly confused as to where the idea I or anyone else here does, comes from

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:20 AM

No one is blaming you. You seem to be confusing being the AU’s representative on the council with you personally being blamed.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:21 AM

okay as long as you understand that because I don't want you thinking I do

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:21 AM

I defend my people, and kettle is now one of my people. I apologize that I'm very loyal to those that I represent.

I'm a very empathetic person and take attacks against those I care about as attacks against me as well.

Which is one of the reasons I'm considering handing the council seat over to somebody else.

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 03:22 AM

Honestly this is strongly beginning to concern me regarding some of the comments made about my own team as well. I know it’s not why we’re here now, but I really really really would like it if you could write up a formal list of grievances to go over sometime in the near future.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:23 AM

The language here has been coming off very inflammatory to me, could we adjust it going forward? It feels almost as if I'm being gas lit, likely not intentionally but it needs to change. (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:24 AM

I think that goes both ways but yes, let's try and keep this civil

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:25 AM

It feels as if none of the issues that are being discussed pertain to the current standing of the AU as a whole, but stem from arguments and battles fought long ago.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:25 AM

let's book-end this for now then, and we can try and list the problems properly

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:26 AM

Given that I didn’t have a scooby doo that’s banned members had been brought back until 5 mins ago, I don’t see how the points I keep raising can be covered in that.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:26 AM

- Statement of ownership over IP - Clarification regarding leadership - How leadership deals with complaints through the council

Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:26 AM

Pinned a message.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:27 AM

The third remains unchanged, but we need to make the charter more publicly visible for ALL members of Beyond Skyrim as a whole for me to agree to this. Not enough members actually understand the charter is a thing or what their rights are and that needs to change.

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 03:27 AM

I don’t have access to a keyboard at the moment, but when I do I’ll try and write up some potential ways we can more effectively deal with, and catalogue, banned members.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:27 AM

right let's add to that concerns about previously banned members because I think that's valid

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:27 AM

Yep. And ideally I’d like the charter link pinned in the AU too. Possibly other modding projects equivalents if you feel that taking a claim means a student is impacted by their rules too.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:27 AM

and yes that's fair Ash

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:27 AM

A simple everyone ping in announcements and actually giving the charter out to members when they join. (edited)

I hear, time and time again, "there's a charter?" or "I have never read the charter / I don't know where to find the charter."

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:28 AM

idk if it needs to be a big deal, just have a pinned document in our announcement channels

which I think it already is in Cyrodiil

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:28 AM

We need to rewrite elements of the charter to reflect the current community, operations, and beliefs of Beyond Skyrim as a whole as well in my personal opinion.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:28 AM

Yeah. I mean if it isn’t happening that’s a problem. I used to have an onboarding message that I sent to everyone I onbparded with all the git links, charter link, cyrodiil handbook etc.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:28 AM

More clear and concise if at all possible.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:29 AM

I kind of assumed everyone did.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:29 AM

rewriting the charter has been a thing we've all been trying to do for a long time

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:29 AM

The AU operates generally under common sense.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:29 AM

and yes Claire you're right those of us who don't should be

unfortunately Ash common sense means different things to different people

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:29 AM

unfortunately common sense isn't common

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:29 AM

yes exactly :P

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:31 AM

Yep. Which is why you (the AU) need to formally clarify a few things. No one is having a go but most of the problems on BS come from poor communication so this is just making sure now the AU has changed everything is clear (and fair) to everyone.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:33 AM

We'll publicly let the students know their rights as students, but we aren't treating them as members. They don't need to know the way the internal workings go, i.e. the rules of Triumviracy, what teachers do, etc. They only need what they need

@Rubaedo I'll work on getting you the list of individuals. It isn't just me that has these issues, so I'm getting others to help compile lists and evidence.

It may take a few weeks.

Apologies for my behavior earlier. I was on the defensive because I've felt as though my people have been attacked nonstop for a week now. I'll go to war for my folks.

I would like to re spotlight @Robcbwilson's point of adding a separate discussion channel. I personally believe a new category for council would be more fitting.

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 03:38 AM

I would hope violence is unnecessary ❤️

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:40 AM

@CreatyChameleon hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but this could be useful https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-prevent-things-from-getting-personal-work-debates-shane-snow

How To Prevent Things From Getting Personal At Work And In Debates

Here’s a question: Would Beyonce have gotten to where she is without Jay-Z? One of my best friends likes to ask this question because it riles people up. I once spent a half hour defending Bey to him like my own reputation was at stake.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:41 AM

Usually I don't take things personally believe it or not, at least when it comes to work.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:41 AM

Being on the council can feel like being yelled at constantly sometimes.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:42 AM

In this case, I believe it was due to unintentionally inflammatory language that put me on the defensive. Minor gaslighting

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:42 AM

Yeah, I’d definitely read the article.

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 03:46 AM

(I hate to be a pedant, but gaslighting is used for intensional abuse and misdirection, not honest communication breakdowns)

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:52 AM

@Rubaedo it can also be done unconsciously as a trained behavior.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 03:54 AM

I’m really uncomfortable with how some aspects of this debate have gone. Who is gaslighting? You can’t just say that without saying who and how.

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 03:54 AM

that's a really heavy accusation to just throw around

Rubaedo 04-Aug-20 03:56 AM

Especially towards someone just coming out of 5 years of abuse and gaslighting herself... (edited)

Fuck, that really got to me actually. I’ve normally got a pretty thick skin but that... that one stuck a bit too hard. I think I’m gonna leave this server for a bit.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 04:02 AM

And Ash I mean that literally. It violates section 2.1 of the charter “*Flaming, personal insults, accusations of bad faith and/or conduct without clear documentary evidence, will not be tolerated, no matter the justification, anywhere on the internet that you are identifiable as, or represent yourself as, a member of Beyond Skyrim.”

Woni 04-Aug-20 05:45 AM

Both versions of the charter are available in the wiki. I tried to read the new messages and I'd like to say (to Ash especially): - A vote is not throwing things away and hope no one noticed, then argue that we had X weeks to react. - Don't accuse the void ( everything is always against you but from nobody?? ) for being responsible of your flaming messages. (edited)

Robcbwilson 04-Aug-20 05:47 AM

https://wiki.beyondskyrim.org/wiki/Beyond_Skyrim_Charter

Beyond Skyrim Charter

Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Robcbwilson 04-Aug-20 05:47 AM

Pinned a message.

Woni 04-Aug-20 05:47 AM

Thank you

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 05:47 AM

thanks, Rob that's a good call

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 06:46 AM

For that purpose I wrote down the charter, or rather copied, to bs wiki

And yes, it's public and anyone joining does accept them. And that implies anyone who joins our discord.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 06:54 AM

Ah. I hadn’t realised it was on the wiki. That’s a really good place for it. I knew it had been copied to the gdrive bed more DC shut down but that’s the last I knew of what happened to it!

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 08:24 AM

Yes. I really appreciate the work xae does, but he wasn't interested to put it on the new website yet, so I had to do something myself to keep transparency and prevent issues

Maybe we can still add it to the website, I think it's important

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 08:37 AM

We need to rewrite elements of the charter to reflect the current community, operations, and beliefs of Beyond Skyrim as a whole as well in my personal opinion.

@CreatyChameleon

Well, i worked over the current charter for 3 nights, and it was decided that this overhaul should be checked by Deeza, the original author

but sadly, i never got a response for that, and i have been mentioning this for 3 or 4 times now over the last 2 years-

and the intention from my side was, formal and concise formulation. less a change of rules

so if you say the charter should be adjusted in this way or any other, expect that there will be a very reasonable but deep discussion about it.

i invite you to have a look at the charter, a few things about property and such arent true the way you said them; i said a few times, it does only formulate a minimum level of common sense regarding letting projects release assets, when they had been created with that purpose by the author; and similarly, there shouldnt be any bad effect on AU members that limits their creative work. Also, let me make clear that the council, as far as i see it, is only concerned with basic things like, that only BS members can be a BS counceller; and that our netiquette applies to everyone to prevent damage from our community. Beyond Skyrim was always a community that gave their teams a high degree of autonomy and nobody really wants any kind of reports about how you run AU. In fact, you are being successful and everyone acknowledged this so far. Beyond that, we have a fond interest to stick together as community and further facilitate cooperation with the other partner projects; to the degree that individual teams are interested in proposing partnerships for assets and the like. Thats just mutual benefits and i dont see any reason for confrontations.

And, showing them where they can read up the charter as their rights is an essential lead job, however, its their free choice if they do.

now its up to you that your team has some additional rules they are all happy with, internally

i mean if you guys think thats even necessary.

1shoedpunk 04-Aug-20 09:04 AM

We can amend the current charter but writing a new one has been off the table. It would be like writing a new constitution. None of the projects would be obligated to ratify a new charter.

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 04-Aug-20 09:11 AM

That is a fair point

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 09:12 AM

Understand

And agree, of course

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 01:59 PM

It's a good thing I only mentioned elements of it. I've read the charter numerous times @Hannes821, so there are no concerns about me not understanding it. @Bellatrix is a statement of feeling an accusation? Accusations require me specifically pointing at someone and saying they did something. I stated that I had felt like there may have been unconscious gaslighting occuring, but upon further reading I retract that statement. I was very fired up and, like I said last night, was taking things personally. I wasn't accusing Rube of it, I'll reach out to her and apologize personally as well.

@Hannes821 as one of the wiki lords, could you add the charter as a sidebar link?

The easier it is to access the better.

@Woni I have taken responsibility, several times, for my behavior over the last week. I also stated multiple times that I requested the council's thoughts and opinions numerous times over the course of several months. There was no "hoping nobody would notice" about what I did.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 02:38 PM

@everyone I have made a temporary channel and temporary category called "Council", and #deleted-channel. I believe we should move this channel into there as well. Obviously the council requires a specific section of the server so all of the talks don't get muted from directors and other discussions.

Woni 04-Aug-20 02:58 PM

I agree.

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:04 PM

So let's actually get a VOTE this time.

for yes,

for no

1

9

Robcbwilson 04-Aug-20 03:21 PM

As this is a test a potential new process do we need what we are voting for specified somewhere etc?

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 03:29 PM

What we are voting on is whether or not we want to keep the category I created and if we want to move this channel to it. (edited)

Robcbwilson 04-Aug-20 03:41 PM

Voted

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 04-Aug-20 03:54 PM

Voted

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 04:15 PM

Errrm how do we make it a permanent record? You can change your vote without it being recorded if we use the icons. Not that I don’t think it’s a good idea mind you.

Also on the DC forums if you said no you had to explain why.

Because council votes have to be unanimous.

ub3rman123 04-Aug-20 04:15 PM

Post after the vote the final tallies?

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 04:15 PM

Then we need to rewrite these processes for Discord.

We could make a channel in which only the owner of the server could post

That way we can post the results

Just remove message deletion permissions

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 05:24 PM

well one person as protocollant, OR this channel does not allow editing text messages in general (and if an admin does it, their message doesnt count) and we just write our answer "Yes - short reason." "No - short reason."

this might be good enough for process & understanding

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 05:25 PM

I think we should get rid of the unanimous vote requirement too. It was allegedly to stop big provinces ganging up on small ones but that’s literally never happened and it allows troublemakers to cause trouble.

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 05:26 PM

a qualified majority for votes? i remember this discussion was present, and the biggest argument against was that at least one person of a team should agree, so its not potentially pointed against a team.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 05:27 PM

I don’t know what the right number is but something like greater than 75% of votes seems fair.

ub3rman123 04-Aug-20 05:28 PM

How many votes are there/what's the distribution?

Sol 04-Aug-20 05:30 PM

Just to be clear, its council members voting on this, right? Not all leads.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 05:31 PM

Yep. Just council members.

There shouldn’t be any non council members in here....? (edited)

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 05:32 PM

i fully understand that qualified majority would move things forward, i just have a vague memory that it was a nono 2 years ago, so unless i fully remember why it was such a thing back on DC, i still need to think about the implications. In general, i would welcome some motion for changes etc.

take the overhaul of the formal aspect of the old charter, it should be something we could all easily agree on, if the material rights are unchanged...

Sol 04-Aug-20 05:33 PM

Ah, I thought this channel was for all directors. In that case, you can probably boot me out, because Rub has BM's council seat.

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 05:34 PM

you have up to 3 seats per team available was once the rule.

small teams might send less people

correct me if i am wrong

Sol 04-Aug-20 05:34 PM

Nope, I just got corrected. All good. Misunderstanding averted lol

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 05:35 PM

a complete agreement sounds scary but then i dont remember any instance of a veto blocking in the recent past, too

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 05:35 PM

No all teams have 3 seats if they want to fill them. Although it’s a bit lame when small teams insist on doing that, it is their right. Errrm it’s been so long since I read the charter but who can and can’t vote and seats per provinces is laid out on the charter.

Sol 04-Aug-20 05:36 PM

BM has Rub, me and Klime

ub3rman123 04-Aug-20 05:36 PM

Oh, I think IB is just me and Sage.

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 05:36 PM

we once also considered limiting it to 2 seats at the end of DC, if we already bring up old reform projects now

ub3rman123 04-Aug-20 05:36 PM

because I don't think anyone else on IB wants to put up with having to be a lead

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 05:36 PM

Roscrea is just me and cyrodiil is just 1shoe. As I said it’s a bit lame when people insist on 3 seats.

ub3rman123 04-Aug-20 05:37 PM

Ah, this seems kind of a tangent from the original AU discussion.

Sol 04-Aug-20 05:37 PM

I think MW only has Larry and Meglos, but yeah anyway, back on topic

ub3rman123 04-Aug-20 05:37 PM

Something tha tneeds to be resolved first?

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 05:38 PM

I dunno. I think we need to vote on if we have a voting channel. Which currently cheaty chameleon is scuppering with no explanation and then we vote that we’re ok with whatever ash comes back with in terms of clearing up the rules either here or in the separate channel. (edited)

Sol 04-Aug-20 05:39 PM

I voted yes to a new channel

ub3rman123 04-Aug-20 05:39 PM

Yep, it seems reasonable to not have votes get drowned in the rest of the chat.

What do you mean by scuppering?

Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 05:40 PM

Pinned a message.

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 05:40 PM

Well the charts says it has to be a unanimous vote for the council to do anything. And currently it’s not.

ub3rman123 04-Aug-20 05:40 PM

Oh, I think that's just a placeholder to have the thumbs-down visible.

Notice they 'voted' on both.

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 05:41 PM

so we have a few votes, how about we give them numbers so we dont get mixed up

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 05:41 PM

‍♀️

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 05:41 PM

you talk about having the channel, then qualified majority, and we scratched the topic of 2 seats per team. Maybe you didnt intend to even talk about the latter.

(the vote channel)

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 05:43 PM

We’re currently just voting on the Channel. Cos ash only made one vote. I would love a vote on scrapping the unanimous requirement but that’s for the future.

1

And 3 seats is fine. If Roscrea ever feels we need to fill the other two we’d fill them but no one else can be arsed with the drama and I always discuss things that affect Roscrea and vote on behalf of what we want anyway so we’ve never needed those other two seats.

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 05:46 PM

well, i am just saying, if we care about percentages now and then, it makes a difference if one team has one and others have three, for fairness.

but i understand if thats not requested to keep it simply as it is

Bellatrix 04-Aug-20 05:50 PM

Let’s sort the current vote out first the worry about the rest

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 05:55 PM

makes absolutely sense! so i pinned that vote, and you wanted more specific descriptions; and perhaps only then the vote after being specified is valid? thats how i understood you

@CreatyChameleon so the technical admin of the wiki said he will add the charter to the sidebar for us now

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 06:04 PM

@Hannes821 wonderful thank you.

@Bellatrix if all teams have three seats, the AU could have all of the Triumvirate in the council as well, assuming we are allowed the keep our seat.

Hannes821 04-Aug-20 06:08 PM

the point back there was that the "support teams" are being treated different from the provinces/regional teams. It has historic reasons, and we came from no seats for support teams at all, just to explain why it is the way it is, with PR currently having none and AF being dissolved.

mind you, if AU has 3 seats, that means they all MUST be BS members. That would be my personal only hard point regarding this topic right now.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/691355310316847176/740345109270495282/unknown.png

should be done

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 06:12 PM

We already have a soft requirement that Triumvirate are BS members. We're writing our amendments now, and will make it a hard requirement.

@everyone reminder to vote on the issue at hand. It is pinned. We currently have 7 votes yes, 0 no. We need a minimum of six more yeses to pass (unless it's to be unanimous)

1shoedpunk 04-Aug-20 06:31 PM

Council votes have the be unanimous unless we unanimously decide a vote will be majority

But I don't think we need to vote on making a new channel? Just make it and make sure all the council members are in it. It's a yes if we are actually voting but that's unnecessary for what amounts to executing an administrative task

Its the equivalent of opening a new thread or making a new subforum

CreatyChameleon 04-Aug-20 07:03 PM

Well there was some debate about whether or not it is worth having earlier.

I've already made the channel / category, as I feel it to be entirely necessary

Bellatrix 05-Aug-20 01:59 AM

I don’t have time to go rummaging through the charter / old council vote archive but I as far as I’m aware it’s up to 3 seats for the projects, 1 seat for AU and forge and no seats for PR.

Don’t know if anyone else can find the relevant links....? If not I can try and look tonight or maybe the weekend.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 02:33 AM

that is correct as far as i know

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 02:59 AM

i have the feeling that if the council seat would be lost (negative vote) there would be some new conversation regarding our partnership inside AU ... But these two things should be looked at separately

Robcbwilson 05-Aug-20 03:26 AM

Voted

Larrian (Morrowind) 05-Aug-20 04:32 AM

I think this should be done with an anonymous strawpoll

Using discord emotes like this I'm not a huge fan of

Meglos (Morrowind) 05-Aug-20 04:33 AM

There's also the fact that you could easily vote for both at once

Or misclick, etc

Especially if you're on mobile

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:35 AM

You can undo votes.

That's a reasonable thing to occur

@Hannes821 you are correct. The removal of BS support (which the council is), will result in a wholesale collapse of our infrastructure. The AU will die, and BS as a whole will be losing a large pool of talented people who want to learn.

Robcbwilson 05-Aug-20 04:47 AM

Which no one wants

Woni 05-Aug-20 04:47 AM

I don't see how the AU council seat is related to BS support. Many teachers are from BS and students can integrate BS or any project after making a work example in AU. Can you elaborate how the AU will die?

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:51 AM

yes.

BS AU is BS AU, no matter if they have a seat or not.

if its taken personally and then interpreted as off, "they dont want us", well that would be a one sided act

i dont think AU wants to split, neither BS wants a split

Therefore, i cannot vote for this, as long as this is not made clear.

i have a conflict of interests here, if these 2 things are intermingled

i dont like if people try to influence my vote on a technically different question

Meglos (Morrowind) 05-Aug-20 04:55 AM

I do think saying that the removal of a council seat would cause a complete collapse of the AU is a tad dramatic

Pulling that is not pulling BS support, it's just acknowledging that the AU as an entity is not intrinsically tied to BS as a whole and decisions related to BS matters don't require input from the AU in order to be made

The council is for discussing things like the addition of new projects, dealing with cross-province matters, or dealing with problematic members, none of which are things that affect the AU or that the AU is really affected by, hence a council seat wouldn't make too much sense

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 05:07 AM

But we help in creating a reason or a narrative to. Leave

And by my responsibilities for the community as a whole I cannot support such a scenario, even if it's rationally not necessarily a collapse, it can be promoted as our decision to break with au here

And I am afraid that could happen, eventhough we clearly want to continue with them together

Just read what has been said

I already see how we are being pushed towards granting the seat or else there might be a split

And I tell you in all transperancy that I think the council is for developing teams, support teams may or may not advise us, but I don't like how these 2 things are being talked about in conjunction

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-20 08:43 AM

The AU would not collapse. If anything it's proven that it's doing just fine without regular involvement from Beyond Skyrim.

Though the vote should really be "Should the AU lose it's council seat"

Because the default action if the vote isn't decisive is it keeps it

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 11:12 AM

yes. doesnt look like a clear majority

Bellatrix 05-Aug-20 11:50 AM

Errrm were we not voting on if we wanted the channe?

That’s certainly what I voted on!

Oh crap - turns out I’m having phone issues and it didn’t tell me there was new activity in the core channel. As you were

I only knows about the vote in this channel.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 12:33 PM

Yes, apologies. There's the vote channel, which has the current discussion. The removal of the seat feels as if it would be akin to removal of BS support. Not that it would be of course. If the council seat is removed it's effectively saying we aren't a BS team in the same ways other are. Enforcing the charter isn't something that would be reasonable if changes can be made to it without our vote in the matter as well. If BS council decisions are to have an impact on the AU in any capacity, the AU should retain it's seat. I will say I had originally taken it to be effective to pulling support, but since that's not the case obviously we'll be fine. The main issue is with the removal of the seat the relationship WILL have to change, as Hannes was saying. BS would become a partner project rather than the sponsor effectively at that point, just in a higher role. Though I have already made the decision to hand my seats over as soon as these decisions are over.

Not enough time for all of this anymore, or any of BS tbf.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 01:21 PM

The vote in the voting channel is about the seat now.

Woni 05-Aug-20 02:53 PM

We should really ping everyone when starting a vote.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 02:55 PM

It was pinged, but not in the vote channel. (edited)

Bellatrix 05-Aug-20 03:28 PM

I’m fairly sure it was my phone being stupid

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:39 PM

The removal of the seat feels as if it would be akin to removal of BS support. -> control your personal feelings here please. This could lead to some unnecessary institutional damage else. If the council seat is removed it's effectively saying we aren't a BS team in the same ways other are. -> AU is a pan BS support team like PR and AF before. Its like this dev server, its not a development team, that is correct and was never the case. Enforcing the charter... what are you talking about? everything here was always running under this rules for everyone, and did you even feel any "enforcement"? you hadnt even been aware of it! thats the case! If BS council decisions are to have an impact on the AU in any capacity, the AU should retain it's seat. -> All units of BS have this impact from council decisions by nature, seat or not. Thats how it always was. you switch it upside down now; we recently build up AU and considered they should get a seat and be part, but it was not the standard situation which can be taken for granted. ... relationship WILL have to change -> you quoted me out of context. I said our relationsship will have to change if you are no longer BS. In the unlikely scenario that the current AU leadership gets the opinion they have to pursue a split out of personal motivation against the interests of the community; including BS and AU (which is de facto a violation against the charter!) If you have no seat, that does not change your ties to BS. BS would become a partner project rather than the sponsor effectively at that point -> Wrong again, you said yourself that you rely on the infrastructure, you cannot simply claim the discord and all members like they were your hostages. Where do you take the impression from that you as the managing director (despite the fact that other AU leads need to agree) even all together could one-sidedly change the community rules that effect all of BS ? Such legislative rights lay inside the full community.

i am not defending destructive separatist tendencies based on personal opinions.

i was about to vote for you and more participation, but your reasoning above really did turn me around, i cannot give in on this. its against what i believe is right.

feel free to correct me, we all do mistakes and maybe i got something wrong

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:47 PM

@Hannes821 I am not claiming the members nor am I acting on my own. I am keeping the Triumvirate very informed and based on what has been said we believe there would be more of a split with the removal of a council seat. The removal of our seat very much so felt as if it was a separation of the AU from BS, it's how I interpreted it and nobody made any indication as to the opposite until recent chats. I am not trying to separate destructively, I am stating my perception of this whole ordeal and there was no effort to make corrections. Once this is dealt with, I will be leaving the AU, and I have already left many of the development servers. I don't have time for it anymore, and there's a lot of drama for no reason. I've grown weary of all of it, and we've already lined up my replacements for in all regards.

They would not pursue a split out of personal motivation, again it was me misinterpreting words as I said.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:48 PM

who believes there must be a split without a seat?

as far as i know, only you voice this opinion

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:48 PM

Nobody anymore, as I have stated.

Because no other Triumvirate are in here to voice theirs.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:49 PM

there was no explanation of necessary corrections to begin with

you didnt once answer the question which charter rules are even problematic

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:49 PM

There was a lot of miscommunication and lack of communication on many issues.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:50 PM

it doesnt matter if you leave or stay, i dont take things personally easily

i am just arguing for the case and my understanding here

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:50 PM

We have discussed what parts of the charter I dislike, it's in the pinned messages. We're in the process of drafting our requested amendments to our section of the charter given the methods we must operate.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:52 PM

i think 1shoed explained that any changes to the charter must be agreed by all teams, and i told you we hadnt been able to get there ourselves. Which is why, i think it should be clear we talk about amandements.

whats your issue with the ownership?

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:53 PM

Over assets?

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:53 PM

it lies with the creator?

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:53 PM

Yes.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:53 PM

so whats the problem?

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:53 PM

We don't claim ownership over students' work

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:53 PM

yes, but charter doesnt either.

which was said a few times-

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:54 PM

The charter says, last I read, that a member of a project gives the project full rights to whatever is made

We don't want to take it under our technical bucket of IP, as that could have liabilities that come with it.

The leadership within the AU is a special case, given we are partnered with other projects. We're working on our proposed amendment specifically for the AU charter of leadership to specify how leadership is passed.

Bellatrix 05-Aug-20 03:56 PM

If a student does a claim for BS, BS owns it. End of. That’s why o wanted you to sort out the paperwork. Because technically we own any claim for any other project. Because the AU is a member of BS.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:56 PM

That's separate.

Which is what I've been saying and it keeps being talked over

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:56 PM

When members submit any art, literary works, or any other original content not governed by Bethesda Softworks’ End User License Agreement, to be incorporated into Beyond Skyrim, they automatically grant the Beyond Skyrim community an irrevocable and perpetual license to use that work for the specific purposes of creating Beyond Skyrim only. This does not affect any other copyright they may have over their own work. Moral rights to be identified as the author of the work in question are of course reserved by the author, and must be acknowledged in the Credits of any Beyond Skyrim releases. All game assets created by members are considered donations but remain the property of the original asset authors. Asset authors/donators are solely responsible for ensuring their assets comply with copyright law. However, moral rights to integrity of the work must be partially waived by the authors, for the limited purposes of editing or re-purposing their work to produce variants, or ensure software/lore compatibility. When third parties submit content, this is subject to negotiation.

we can use these assets

we dont own them

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:57 PM

If they do a claim for BS, then if that team desires it, they take the ownership of that claim.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:57 PM

they are formally still the creators.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:57 PM

Yes I am aware of that.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:57 PM

they just accept that it can be used for the teams

define "ownership". legally, they remain owners and just give us a use right, which is exclusive until release

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:58 PM

If a student does a claim for BS, BS owns it. End of.

This is what the general consensus is, and what we are formalizing into writing.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:58 PM

in context of mod

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:58 PM

Hannes, I am aware. You don't need to continue to say the same thing (edited)

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:58 PM

yeah but seriously, first of all this only applies to work handed in to BS

secondly, all teams have this, or even stricter rules than us

Bellatrix 05-Aug-20 03:58 PM

Sorry, my wording was sloppy. But we get the right to use it. But that need clarifying now the AU does claims for other projects too. Cos obviously it’s nonsense that we get to use another projects stuff.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:58 PM

I am aware of that. (edited)

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:59 PM

thirdly, we never had any issues

so where do you see any case where this would lead into a conflict?

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:59 PM

Yes, because there weren't additional parties involved.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:59 PM

they can simply withdraw their claims before handing in if they think so

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:59 PM

It was only a member of a team and BS.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:59 PM

Skyblivion and the others do it the same way

and again, if a Skyblivion member does a claim for BS explicitely

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:59 PM

Claims can be done for any other project aside from BS, and can done as just practice.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 03:59 PM

he is okay with that

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 03:59 PM

Skyblivion members wouldn't be doing the claims.

They give claims out

For students to do.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:00 PM

yes but as you read, this is only if the claim is fone FOR BS

so in that case its not even relevant!

*done for BS

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:00 PM

Given it is posted within the AU, and you ALL keep saying students are beholden to our charter, we need to specify.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:00 PM

which is why i dont understand the urgency here. if they just practice or work for another team, then this rule doesnt apply at all

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:00 PM

So students are beholden to 7, 8, or even 9 charters?

Each project has their own charters effectively.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:01 PM

well we are not responsible if other teams have other rules!

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:01 PM

That's what my issue is.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:01 PM

but its a BS server and we do have minimum rules, and we must

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:01 PM

Within the bounds of our server, with our IP on the name of it, we must specify. (edited)

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:01 PM

and our goal would be that we agree on similar rules

its not your IP my friend, its the students work

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:01 PM

To ensure fairness and even enforcement of IP rights within our server

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:01 PM

they decide what they do

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:01 PM

Our IP as in Beyond Skyrim

and our IP as in the claims we hand out within regards to concept art

There's several IPs that are there, I want to be sure every student has the same rights, regardless of what claim is done for what project

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:02 PM

if we hand out a BS claim. usually we just have this teaching claims and only take in assets when they ask us to

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:02 PM

This is specifically for the AU's charter.

Not for the whole charter

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:02 PM

exactly. so that they have the same rights, you need a standard.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:03 PM

Which is what I am trying to establish. We're on the same page, just talking in circles a bit

We just want to standardize the IP assignment rights within the server. Thankfully, Deis is a lawyer

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:05 PM

but thats actually something you must discuss with other projects and not BS, i dont understand you. If they dont work on a BS asset, with an official claiming declaration of sorts, they can do whatever, and no rules apply at all. And i ask you, are there any other conflicting IP rules? i dont get it. Take your partner projects: their rules dont apply; but why couldnt you treat them exactly the same way if one day their assets are being created there? They give out a claim for Skyblivion, and in the same way, the authors grant a use right? We could accept that by ammandement, but thats not a reason to change the charter; and you must make sure that your partner teams accept that, which is an AU leadership job

but all of that means, you dont originally have any problems with our IP rules.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:06 PM

No, the current IP rules are fine, I just want to have a provision to ensure that the same rights apply for all students regardless of who they are taking a claim from

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:06 PM

she is studiing law. and i graduated too. we talked a bit.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:06 PM

and since partner project rules don't apply, as you said, they won't be technically assigned the IP rights of the claims done.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:07 PM

therefore, you simply treat the other teams analogue to BS, and you only need them to agree.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:07 PM

Which is what we were likely going to do.

I'm trying to be transparent about our actions and methods.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:07 PM

as it doesnt rival with our claims, its clear what an asset is made for

so there doesnt have to be any kind of change imo.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:08 PM

No, not to the overall charter like I said.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:08 PM

regarding complaints, and social behavior in general, i would also suggest you just continue as it was, the charter does apply because we have this "court system" in place; as placeholder but open for anyone

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:08 PM

I've been very clear these changes would be made only for the AU charter, as each project has one

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:09 PM

yeah but your rule basically aims at the agreements of third parties, not BS, our rules are compatible to your ideas in my understanding

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:09 PM

...yes. The BS rules are compatible. But we need to add the provisions within our charter.

since our charter applies to our teachers from third parties as well

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:10 PM

well no matter who is the claimant, if they declare to work for a BS claim, it applies to them, as consequence that if a bs member claims a Skyblivion asset; it would become skyblivion use right, too.

which means, our charter does apply to anyone, and is used this way evenly, else it would be discriminating

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:10 PM

Yes, and we are going to ensure that. There's no reason to continue this discussion, we're in agreement as to what is going to happen.

The current charter is BS specific, we'll be adding the provision for third parties to ensure it is truly evenly applied.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:13 PM

so your first point should be solved for the council, as it doesnt require our action. We could perhaps discuss an amandment and vote, to make sure this interpretation we discussed is legitimate to be sure. your second point, the complaint system, i dont see the necessity for us to change there, too. unless you tell me what it is why you think there should be a different mediation system in place. But we have the structure and the people and the experience to deal with it.

and what was your leadership point about again? i think all of this could be resolved without big drama.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:13 PM

The complaints are fine

1

I don't have any desire to change them

My only point where I wanted to add clarification was to the IP rights

Leadership point was requested by Claire and many others

As there is a concern that a member of a third party could become a lead in the AU

They just want us to specify how leadership is assigned

I personally believe that if a non-BS member is promoted to lead there should be no issue

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:15 PM

ah right, you said that its going to be a hard requirement that the lead in council is BS

and maybe even all AU leads, but thats an internal rule for my understanding

you have a 3 lead system now.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:16 PM

Yes. That is the only requirement I personally had, but other members of council wanted me to enforce BS only

Which I feel goes against what we're working for with the partnerships.

We want everyone to feel equal.

My solution was that any member who is a lead or even a teacher is automatically a BS member, given they are a "member" of the AU

They'd just be AU members.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:18 PM

i personally understand that, but i also understand that a non-bs-member in the council would have a negative impact. Yes, thats an interesting idea, however in the past, BS membership was tied to being member of one of the developing teams.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:18 PM

I've been considered a member of Beyond Skyrim for four years, three of which I was just a teacher within the AU

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:18 PM

so we would have to vote on this. But it would mean that this "artificial member" would have to be in touch with us to build trust, its a bit ... meh

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:18 PM

Nobody really questioned it

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:18 PM

thats the reality, yes-

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:18 PM

If they're a teacher, there is a level of trust there automatically.

We gather for the pursuit of knowledge and sharing of it, not for power or anything similar to that

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:20 PM

true but i guess the council might have an interest that the person knows the charter and the teams a bit. Also true that the work you do doesnt require membership to be beneficial.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:20 PM

Precisely. The methods of operation within the AU don't require membership within BS, and with the council seat currently in the air for validity, this may not even be a problem.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:24 PM

one thing should be clear, we want to avoid a split or violations against the charter to protect our identity as community. So i understand if the council or many here think, a third party lead is more likely to go that way out of not knowing the "traditions" in a way.

how could we bring these 2 things together?

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:24 PM

When we have our project charter drafted, we'll be sending it to teachers for approval / thoughts / additions, then we'll send it here.

Each teacher will be made aware of the charter and what it entails

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:25 PM

Does it make sense to talk about a proportions system?

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:27 PM

Could you clarify your intent with proportions?

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:27 PM

we have like 10% third party teachers. We have 3 seats. In the current situation, BS is doing most of the teaching investment, so they should roughly have a majority in the leadership as well. Now let me be a bit imaginative. In 5 years we have 10% BS and 90% third party teachers. Then they deserve 2 of the 3 places out of their contributions. However, there must be one BS lead else you cannot send anyone to council. Given that dark scenario here regarding BS activity which is extreme, i think BS will always have more than 2/3rds

means, at least 2 of the 3 leads

the win is, you can tell third party teachers that if they work hard, they could also be lead, and hence some equality

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:29 PM

That is similar to what we were going to likely do, until there was a request for us to only allow BS leads

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:30 PM

yeah, i just tried to find a compromise of our mutual intrests, but you still have to get the approval of the council; i can just talk for myself

okay, i guess you have a bit of internal work ahead, best of luck there, i hope we can use this situation to put this "legally" on a more solid fundament and its actually a situation leading to an improvement of sorts.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 04:33 PM

Many of our methods are just undocumented

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 04:35 PM

yes. i guess making them official would be work; maybe we can still document a bit for the future.

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-20 04:55 PM

i think there's a major miscommunication here - the Beyond Skyrim charter as it is applies to everyone in the AU, teachers and leads alike. If someone is a lead in the AU that currently means that person is a Beyond Skyrim lead. The teachers are viewed as members under the Charter as well.

Students aren't members but their rights are protected under the charter. If they contribute a claim to a project that is accepted by that project that means that they've become a member of that project.

Yes some people may be subject to the charters of different groups as well as whatever internal AU charter there may end up being, but that's fine

Being a member covered by the charter doesn't mean anything other than protection by it or, in the case of grievances, being subject to its rules.

The only time the charter will be relevant for most people is if there is a problem that needs resolution

99% of the time it doesn't have any bearing on how people act within projects

Bellatrix 05-Aug-20 05:03 PM

^

Robcbwilson 05-Aug-20 05:04 PM

^^

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 05:06 PM

Which is what my understanding was as well. When it was requested that we enforce BS leadership, I was very confused.

1shoedpunk 05-Aug-20 05:07 PM

Yeah, I think that things have gotten a bit muddied and there were some misunderstandings about what opening up the AU to other projects meant.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 05:10 PM

great! so we dont have an open issue.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 05:10 PM

- we get very experienced teachers from external projects - other members are able to recruit from the AU - we have better programs for students and more people to bolster the subjects we've been neglecting

Bellatrix 05-Aug-20 05:11 PM

This probably comes down to interpretation, but the wall of text I’m about to report is why I keep banging on about the AU needing to tidy up the paperwork. Because my reading of it is we own anything anyone makes under the unreels of a BS activity. Which obviously is morally not the case if it’s for another project. But the charter wasn’t written with that in mind. When members submit any art, literary works, or any other original content not governed by Bethesda Softworks’ End User License Agreement, to be incorporated into Beyond Skyrim, they automatically grant the Beyond Skyrim community an irrevocable and perpetual license to use that work for the specific purposes of creating Beyond Skyrim only. This does not affect any other copyright they may have over their own work. Moral rights to be identified as the author of the work in question are of course reserved by the author, and must be acknowledged in the Credits of any Beyond Skyrim releases. All game assets created by members are considered donations but remain the property of the original asset authors. Asset authors/donators are solely responsible for ensuring their assets comply with copyright law. However, moral rights to integrity of the work must be partially waived by the authors, for the limited purposes of editing or re-purposing their work to produce variants, or ensure software/lore compatibility. When third parties submit content, this is subject to negotiation.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 05:11 PM

It's been posted already.

We're past that already

Bellatrix 05-Aug-20 05:11 PM

Yep then ignored.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 05:12 PM

We're working on the paperwork.

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 05:12 PM

license agreement, as of, if you give a license, then you give out usage rights for a time, but you dont use ownership.

maybe that wasnt intended by deeza

but this is how i understand licensing

Bellatrix 05-Aug-20 05:12 PM

Sort that out and I don’t have any objections.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 05:12 PM

We're on it. It's gonna take time.

Bellatrix 05-Aug-20 05:13 PM

So I really don’t get why we’re having the vote now. Come back in a month when you’ve sorted all the Is and crossed the Ts. Cos at the moment I’m a no because it’s such a mess. Make sure the regulation is workable and I become a yes.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 05:14 PM

We're having the vote now because it was called.

I don't see the point to it now while we're in the middle of restructuring and documenting everything

If we're putting the vote on an official hold, I would like to put in my official resignation from council. Firenight has volunteered to take my position in my stead, and will serve as replacement. I will also be stepping down as Triumvirate from the Arcane University, and will be leaving all servers related to Beyond Skyrim aside from the Elsweyr development server, where I will retain membership for the foreseeable future. Asher has volunteered to take my seat as Triumvirate, and I will be handing control over the Arcane University server to Deis as she has seniority as Triumvirate.

Bellatrix 05-Aug-20 05:20 PM

I think @Larrian (Morrowind) is the only one who can add members to thy is channel?

Meglos (Morrowind) 05-Aug-20 05:21 PM

I can do it as well

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 05:23 PM

That's if we're putting it on hold.

Bellatrix 05-Aug-20 05:27 PM

Err you called it...? At what seems a really not great time. So I don’t get why it wouldn’t be on hold until the governance can be cleared up.

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 06:06 PM

I officially called the vote because it was being requested, unless I misinterpreted

CreatyChameleon 05-Aug-20 06:18 PM

In that case, @Meglos (Morrowind), may you put Firenight in here and take me out?

The vote can be called upon at a later time

Meglos (Morrowind) 05-Aug-20 06:19 PM

Sure (edited)

Hannes821 05-Aug-20 06:27 PM

if we still see the necessity, since a few things changed

or, cleared up now, luckily

@Firenight welcome here!

1

Firenight 05-Aug-20 06:30 PM

Hey

I’m happy to be here :p

3

Bellatrix 05-Aug-20 10:29 PM

Hey Firenight! (edited)

Firenight 05-Aug-20 10:35 PM

hey claire!

Robcbwilson 06-Aug-20 01:38 AM

Welcome Firenight

Firenight 06-Aug-20 02:28 AM

Hey rob

1

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 09-Aug-20 08:38 AM

Welcome!

Firenight 09-Aug-20 10:20 AM

Hannes821 20-Aug-20 10:17 AM

Hello ! i have a question regarding the history of BS before 2017. For the interview with gamestar, i might get asked about how BS was funded and so on, but i do not know. Is there a source for trivia or BS history i could read up? If anyone would advise me what is okay to say publicly i gladly take the offer.

i dont want to say anything wrong since we have the opportunity to shine in europe like a proffesional studio

ub3rman123 20-Aug-20 10:21 AM

I'll ask Deeza, I think he's got a handle on the history. We also used to have a History page on the website.

Hannes821 20-Aug-20 10:22 AM

thank you! much appreciated

Deer is with me

she is also in there, so i will also communicate with her a bit

1shoedpunk 30-Aug-20 07:34 PM

re: Alinor I understand that they've been talking with people on our teams for lore, but we've had an offer of someone taking on what's effectively an inter-province modelling claim. If they are going to apply I think now is the time.

Otherwise we're going to end up in a situation where they've worked with our teams on so many things over so much time that they're defacto members of Beyond Skyrim

1shoedpunk 30-Aug-20 07:44 PM

@here

ub3rman123 30-Aug-20 07:46 PM

What does the process look like? Alinor puts together a showcase of what they've gotten done and their membership/recruitment, and we make a call on if they're developed enough to join up?

1shoedpunk 30-Aug-20 07:48 PM

The previous projects that have successfully applied were the original Valenwood team and Thras. Their applications consisted of an organization chart naming department leads, a document detailing the scale and scope of the project and how it would fit in to Beyond Skyrim

I think Atmora did something similar but they were already an established project with a lot of content implemented so we looked at their developed work more than the content.

Firenight 30-Aug-20 07:50 PM

have they shown interest applying yet?

1shoedpunk 30-Aug-20 07:50 PM

They've been advertising themselves as hoping to join

And they're asking to take on inter-province claims

It's kind of the point where they have to make a decision or not

Firenight 30-Aug-20 07:51 PM

it might be worth reaching out now then

1shoedpunk 30-Aug-20 07:52 PM

I just want them to apply before things go any further because if they've already worked on claims for Beyond Skyrim and there's a significant overlap the application process will be messier if the Council rejects it.

Firenight 30-Aug-20 07:53 PM

thats fair

tbh im for it

from what ive seen on them they have a really good base

1shoedpunk 30-Aug-20 07:53 PM

I need to see more before I make my vote, but I did vote yes for both Thras and Valenwood.

Meglos (Morrowind) 30-Aug-20 07:56 PM

I definitely need to see more, I haven't heard much at all about this team

Is it a completely new group of people or is it mostly people who are also BS members?

Firenight 30-Aug-20 07:56 PM

its lead by bs people iirc

Meglos (Morrowind) 30-Aug-20 07:57 PM

Hmm, ideally they'd be bringing new talent to the table rather than spreading our current talent ever thinner

Firenight 30-Aug-20 07:58 PM

i think the main base is mixed but im not 100% on that

Sol 30-Aug-20 09:34 PM

As well as scope and detail I'd like to see what they've achieved so far in terms of the different departments just to show they've got the work behind them

Hannes821 30-Aug-20 11:34 PM

does Alinor cover all of summerset or only the main isle? (out of curiosity, i think the latter) and you said that Valenwood applied successfully, did they join us recently or was that in the past?

i am looking forward to see more people working on this vision of expanded TES5 on the highest possible level of quality.

with us if possible

Robcbwilson 31-Aug-20 02:22 AM

I think it would be a good idea to quantify exactly what we expect to see from a new project.

2

Things off the top of my head would be:

Team size

Percentage of BS people

A decision on how much showcased work we would need to consider a team

What documentation is required

Etc

Robcbwilson 31-Aug-20 02:34 AM

Am I also right in thinking that a team could be initially denied, given reasons why and the opportunity to fix things in their application and reapply?

And be accepted

Hannes821 31-Aug-20 04:07 AM

everyone deserves fair chances of course. I would assume that a team needs at least 25ish active members that contributed the last 3 months and i would assume that there should have 10 to 20 non-BS members. i think numbers is better than %. i think we need to negotiate such criteria.

better of course, if they have more. no question.

and a game design document / worldspace would also help, and design plan for their art, some environemntal lore structure. all this would show mature effort, and most importantly, if its realistically doable

Sol 31-Aug-20 04:32 AM

@Robcbwilson I don't see why not. If they've actually gone away and specifically improved on what's been asked, I'd say that's even more in their favour

I can't speak for other departments because they're not my forté but if a team can show they've got some 2d work for architecture, creatures, clothing, weapons/armour, environmental concepts, and clutter I would personally be happy

Robcbwilson 31-Aug-20 05:17 AM

Thanks @Sol I think it is these kind of expectations that we need to set out. I agree that a team that has work to show across the board is obviously serious and a worthy addition to BS (edited)

1

Bellatrix 31-Aug-20 06:45 AM

@Hannes821 I think 1shoe meant blackmarsh not valenwood.

Hannes821 31-Aug-20 06:50 AM

Oh.

Okay

Thanks for clarification

I thought I missed it

Bellatrix 31-Aug-20 06:59 AM

If you missed it I did too. But the only two I know about are blackmarsh and thraas.

Robcbwilson 31-Aug-20 07:01 AM

And Atmora of course

1shoedpunk 31-Aug-20 08:04 AM

Right, Black Marsh was the successful one.

Hannes821 31-Aug-20 08:51 AM

i would suggest that we make a paper together where we agree on criteria for accepting applying teams. These should not be binding, not replace our evaluation at all, but give some sort of "range of expectations" that we can agree on, and we can also hint on them if someone does apply, so they know what they have to work on. I think that (if we get good people/teams) its a a great advantage for Beyond Skyrim; it really depends on that applying team and their project.

Hannes821 31-Aug-20 09:07 AM

i put down some thoughts, very raw and unsorted, maybe it helps?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14LRMhuvhXiFlw7QW3d00EBJwSzVyaZRduty7OPpMAVk/edit?usp=sharing

Expectations towards applying projects for Beyond Skyrim

Expectations towards applying projects for Beyond Skyrim (discussion paper) Applying projects should fulfil the following requirements: Project goal and the overall goal of Beyond Skyrim respect and accept the charter of BS as fundament of operation cooperate in the structu...

i am very happy if we discuss it, even if there is a lot of disagreement, but to get forward in this process

and sorry for bad English, feel free to correct it entirely

Robcbwilson 31-Aug-20 09:37 AM

I agree that this is the approach that we should follow

2

It may even be worth having something to give prospective teams when they apply

1

Hannes821 31-Aug-20 10:47 AM

we got the BM application back then in january /february 2017. it really helped understanding what to do and where to work on

Sol 31-Aug-20 04:01 PM

Those expectations look good to me

Robcbwilson 31-Aug-20 04:33 PM

They should have an active and vivid team of developers and artists, at least (25?) or more They should have a pool of developers and artists which are not already invested in ongoing projects to assure a minimal conflict of interests in terms of time capacity, at least (66%?) or more “new people”. The number of active people in the team would need to be bigger than 25 I think (maybe 50+) and given that one of the main concerns around new teams joining being a drain on existing resources, the percentage of "new" people could be 75% perhaps?

1shoedpunk 31-Aug-20 04:41 PM

I don't think putting a number on that is necessary. Multiple people are on multiple teams. As far as I know most of Roscrea has members on other teams

I think the biggest concern with new applicants is that they are likely to last without collapsing under their vision and that their vision is in line with what we're doing

We don't have a monopoly on Elder Scrolls projects, a rejection shouldn't be a verdict on the viability of the project, just if it is a good addition to this one

Hannes821 01-Sep-20 01:07 AM

ok. Well 25 seems low, but consider them "active" as of, actually achieving something in regular time, not just chatting or sitting by. anyhow, yes a number is problematic. it highly depends on individuals

maybe remove numbers then

Hannes821 02-Sep-20 02:29 AM

i am looking forward to the wave of applications of new devs after the Gamestar articles, hopefully

while we do not have a monopoly, we are the only hope of the community to achieve such a great goal as of realizing such a huge game environment

i adjust our expectations according your feedback

@Team Leads For future applications it would be nice to agree on a set of general expectations, your right to vote and decline an application remains untouched, of course. Please give it a thumbs up if you read this and in general agree, or a thumbs down if there is something inappropriate or to be fixed. thank you very much https://docs.google.com/document/d/14LRMhuvhXiFlw7QW3d00EBJwSzVyaZRduty7OPpMAVk/edit

3

(it would be best to understand if there is something to be fixed, let us know)

Hannes821 08-Sep-20 08:12 AM

Anathem stepped back from his position, so the admin of the server can do the necessary administration work

(see department lead channel message)

Hannes821 11-Sep-20 02:16 AM

i dont know about you, but i feel its frustrating if nobody cares enough to even reply here, as lead.

ub3rman123 11-Sep-20 09:11 AM

You just need an @Administrator to update the roles?

Meglos (Morrowind) 11-Sep-20 11:41 AM

I can do that, I've just had limited time at my pc this week, will try to remember when I get home

Hannes821 11-Sep-20 02:06 PM

Ah thanks. My interest was more the topic of criteria for new projects

It would be good to get any kind of feedback. In theory, we could have all tamriel covered and make beyond Skyrim even more powerful. That's my opinion.

It would be an incredible opportunity to waste, at least discuss it. For the sake of those who would love to play the world of tes5

Hannes821 12-Sep-20 03:00 AM

I mean, working on beyond Skyrim, serving teams as a hub,

is eventually the sole purpose of our community, if I understand correctly, so we should be able to agree on the conditions of fulfilling our job

Bellatrix 12-Sep-20 07:09 AM

Sorry. I'm not around much during the week. I should be able to read it this weekend though!

I was the facilitator for both Blackmarsh and Thraas applications and effectively we got them to do a project design brief - it was pretty similar both times. Atmora was different because that was a fully fledged project that was part way through so you had a much easier time because it was obvious that you'd already thought about all that to be able to get as far as you had.

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 12-Sep-20 09:05 AM

I think it's a good idea to take codify what we expect for a new project, but I'm not sure what that looks like.

Hannes821 12-Sep-20 12:15 PM

Hmm the draft as suggestion is linked up there, @Samurai Healer (Elsweyr)

it's open and in discussion. Well, digging out old applications would help, if anyone finds them, I will also have a look!

Hannes821 21-Sep-20 01:46 AM

So, except for the 3 team leads agreeing above on the suggested conditions of welcoming applications to fill valenwood and summerset and potentially island provinces, there is no other reaction?

Okay let's not call Island projects provinces. They are small in comparison.

Meglos (Morrowind) 21-Sep-20 07:33 AM

Yeah, looks ok to me. Obviously each application should still be judged on a case-by case basis on top of this

1

Hannes821 21-Sep-20 08:26 AM

yes, of course.

Robcbwilson 23-Sep-20 03:43 PM

The Alinor Leads Team have been made aware of the actions of a Lead (Nipzo), which pertains to allegations of targeted harassment and general inappropriate behaviour towards several female members of our project. After internal discussion and investigation, we have acted swiftly to remove this member from our project and will no longer associate with them, as their actions directly oppose the values and beliefs of the Alinor Leads. The allegations against Nipzo are extremely serious and we do not take them lightly. After coming to the conclusion that our project environment, nor any project environment, is a safe place for him or any others around him, we decided that a ban was the appropriate action to take. We intend to deal with the future repercussions of this member's actions, as we are aware of the way this represents the modding community, and have apologised to both our team as a whole and the affected members. We will act with vigilance to prevent this happening again and will check in with our team regularly to address any lingering issues.

In addition, he has been removed already from Elsweyr and Valenwood, the AU and the Outpost (edited)

ub3rman123 23-Sep-20 05:10 PM

Removed on IB.

Robcbwilson 23-Sep-20 05:10 PM

I believe he has also been removed from Cyrodiil

Bellatrix 24-Sep-20 02:17 AM

I think he removed himself from Roscrea - he's gone anyway

1shoedpunk 30-Sep-20 08:19 AM

I've been made aware of issues pertaining to Tobi, a member of several projects. I am not sure of the exact timeline, but he has been exhibiting inappropriate advances towards a 15 year old and he is 23. However this is a very sensitive matter as he has attempted suicide due in part to his attraction towards minors. Suffice to say we cannot safely allow them to continue with the projects. We will be removing them from Cyrodiil asap but based off the evidence we believe that they should be removed from Beyond Skyrim completely and reported to Discord.

Again, this is extremely sensitive and we do not want to trigger another suicide attempt, so any discussion should be kept here and confidential.

This also needs to be resolved today, given the nature of the offense.

ub3rman123 30-Sep-20 08:21 AM

Hm, seems he already left the IB server a bit ago.

Hannes821 30-Sep-20 09:58 AM

Oh, I guess I am lucky we don't know him then

Robcbwilson 30-Sep-20 10:26 AM

He is no longer with Alinor

Bellatrix 09-Oct-20 09:40 AM

Apparently Tobi is still in the dev server?

I checked and he does seem to be but it’s odd because 1shoe and I can’t contact him to tell him he’s banned from cyrodiil because we apparently don’t share any servers.

Robcbwilson 09-Oct-20 11:04 AM

Should be removed. I will ban him unless anyone has a concern.

Bellatrix 09-Oct-20 02:48 PM

I think given how serious it is if no one can be around to engage and reply you should just go for it. Whole council response has been v lack lusture TBH. (edited)

Robcbwilson 09-Oct-20 03:51 PM

Banning them now

And done

Bellatrix 09-Oct-20 03:54 PM

Thanks Rob

1

Hannes821 14-Oct-20 05:48 AM

Unclaimed Provinces of BS: Valenwood and Summerset and the external teams taking shape now. Now, it seems that Alinor and Valenwood are already big and make a lot of progress, and as i heard from a developer, they do that with only very very few BS people, even rejecting most applications of BS team members to rely on inhouse capabilities. They posted in a public discord server about their current status. They also got attention in public: https://www.pcgamesn.com/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/mod-valenwood They also got good reddit range, additionally. They are now comparatively big for a Skyrim new lands project, they could potentially contribute to BSAssets and increase our community as a whole, whose goal it is to provide the expanded player experience beyond Skyrims borders, essentially. I would even consider to proactively suggest them as Beyond skyrim to apply, providing some application form sheet to be filled out. It will show if their goals, progress. Overall, i think it makes sense to take a step ahead and can create great synergies. One example of such effects would be, its great news alone for game magazines, that there are these areas working in a concerted effort with the others. And more people here might also mean more and deeper discussions. I think it would be a win-win situation for everyone involved. Even if we end up putting the application on hold until (yet) other criteria are being met (if thats really necessary), or have to turn it down for unforeseeable reasons, its still best we go ahead and take the next step of action and open this discussion with them and internally, i believe, personally. If we ignore the situation, maybe they even grow tired of us and we loose potential partners.

Skyrim modders are bringing The Elder Scrolls: Valenwood to life

Valenwood is coming to Skyrim, thanks to some dedicated modders

Robcbwilson 16-Oct-20 04:09 AM

I would be very interested to hear people's opinions on this too

Firenight 17-Oct-20 12:55 PM

@Team Leads We at the AU have been working on a cohesive guidelines on what the AU is and how it functions. We've come up with a charter for the AU and how it works. Please look this over and tell us if there is something you disagree with or want change and we will immediately implement those changes. We need a vote on this from every project before we are to fully implement it into the AU. https://docs.google.com/document/d/10DUCvjmEPD8uhdkWqeuZQ06vts5hiuxwphAawZL7npY/edit?usp=sharing (edited)

AU Rules draft

AU Rules draft The Following rules are additions to the Beyond Skyrim charter that solely affect the Arcane University. The BS charter has validity unless a rule written in the following text states otherwise. Server behavior- Skywalker General behaviour rules, this section...

Robcbwilson 17-Oct-20 01:54 PM

I am reading them now @Firenight

Hannes821 17-Oct-20 04:13 PM

there is one point where i will talk with deisabri, which is about the subsidiarity and the formal application of the charta, see the comment.

Hannes821 17-Oct-20 05:46 PM

okay we sorted it out

Firenight 17-Oct-20 05:55 PM

awesome

Robcbwilson 18-Oct-20 02:54 AM

I provided a lot of feedback and comments to Deis with this too

Bellatrix 18-Oct-20 04:04 AM

I think it looks OK - it makes it clear that if conflict resolution isn't working then it's dealt with in the usual BS process which was the problem initially.

Robcbwilson 18-Oct-20 05:44 AM

^

Hannes821 18-Oct-20 05:48 AM

Firenight 25-Oct-20 06:25 PM

@Team Leads sorry for another ping but I just wanna make sure that everyone is alright with the new daft before we go about implementing it

1

Sol 25-Oct-20 06:29 PM

Seems good, yeah

ub3rman123 25-Oct-20 06:38 PM

I had no objections.

Hannes821 25-Oct-20 06:48 PM

Good

Bellatrix 26-Oct-20 02:27 AM

Yeah I’m fine with it. As no one has said no and it’s been a week I’d just got for it.

Robcbwilson 26-Oct-20 05:39 AM

^

I fed back all my comments to Deis already so I am fine with the amended version

Firenight 26-Oct-20 10:39 AM

nice just wanna make sure @Morrowind is cool with it before going

Meglos (Morrowind) 26-Oct-20 11:39 AM

Yeah I don't think there's any major issues

Bellatrix 28-Oct-20 03:30 PM

Just as aheads up we think Tobi might be back. A new recruit called DarkTriad signed up and claimed all the dungeons Tobi had been working on which seems odd

Robcbwilson 28-Oct-20 03:31 PM

On Cyrodiil?

Asking people who may know

Bellatrix 28-Oct-20 03:33 PM

Yeah

Firenight 28-Oct-20 04:37 PM

its been confirmed

for any team that they are on, it seems it was just mw and cyr, make sure to ban

we don't want someone like this lurking around

Meglos (Morrowind) 28-Oct-20 04:39 PM

Banned from MW

Firenight 28-Oct-20 04:39 PM

awesome ty

Bellatrix 29-Oct-20 02:15 AM

Ugggh. Is there anything we can do to stop it happening again? As someone pointed out to me IP address checking won’t work if he uses a VPN and the only reason we noticed is because it was unbelievably badly done. If he’d put a bit more effort into it we probably wouldn’t have noticed for months.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Oct-20 02:22 AM

I honestly really do not know

Bellatrix 29-Oct-20 02:23 AM

We should probably report it to discord again. I’ll do that when I’m on my PC later if you like.

We got really lucky it was so badly done. If he’d put a bit more effort in it would have been months until anyone found out and that’s quite worrying given what he was upto last time.

Robcbwilson 29-Oct-20 03:31 AM

It is a real concern, all we can do is be vigilant and keep an eye out for him.

Meglos (Morrowind) 29-Oct-20 03:41 AM

I disabled the invite he used to get back into MW, you might be able to do the same for Cyr

Bellatrix 29-Oct-20 02:14 PM

Reported it to discord. Doubt they give a shit but who knows

Tempted to look into how to reporting him to the UK police as I believe he's British

ub3rman123 29-Oct-20 02:25 PM

Could someone forward me the evidence against TobiPie?

@Robcbwilson I think?

Robcbwilson 29-Oct-20 02:27 PM

Yes, I can send you some Ub3r

Bellatrix 29-Oct-20 02:32 PM

I've got some DMs from one of our leads

TBH it was all a mess - I'm surprised no one showed any interest in what had gone on when it happened

Robcbwilson 29-Oct-20 02:32 PM

I have sent some screenshots

Bellatrix 29-Oct-20 02:32 PM

OK

Robcbwilson 29-Oct-20 02:33 PM

I was also surprised

This was real world stuff

Bellatrix 29-Oct-20 02:33 PM

It was still a mess and as far as I can tell several directors got groomed so they'd feel sorry for him and didn't immediately report what had gone on to the council

Robcbwilson 29-Oct-20 02:34 PM

Yes, that is sadly accurate

In addition, they were convinced they could not come to the Council at all

The whole thing was horrific

Bellatrix 04-Nov-20 01:10 PM

Did we ban Tobi from and servers he subsequently joined under the new account? Discord want to know.

ub3rman123 04-Nov-20 01:11 PM

He's banned on IB's servers, at least.

I banned the new account too.

Oh, IB community server, lemme look.

Firenight 04-Nov-20 01:11 PM

yes

i banned the original from the outpost

and he joined again using a new one

same goes for the au

Bellatrix 04-Nov-20 01:12 PM

Cheers. We didn’t ban him from cyrodiil cos he left.

But I can tell Discord about the others.

ub3rman123 04-Nov-20 01:12 PM

Yep, not on the IB community server with either account.

Woni 06-Nov-20 05:27 PM

Isn't there an IP ban feature?

Oh nvm it's on by default

Woni 06-Nov-20 06:21 PM

VPN IPs are probably almost all banned imo.

Bellatrix 18-Nov-20 02:59 PM

Who’s a blackmarsh lead in here?

We’re having a few problems with Mathy in his curtesy role as 3D coordinator for BM on cyrodiil.

@everyone

Rubaedo 18-Nov-20 03:08 PM

What's up?

Bellatrix 18-Nov-20 03:09 PM

Hey! Can you have a chat with Mathy about playing nice in a collaborative environment?

And or is there anyone else that would make sense to have as your 3D peep in cyrodiil chat?

Bellatrix 18-Nov-20 03:17 PM

We do really appreciate all the free assets and want to work together on the Blackwood / blackmarsh look but whenever Mathy doesn’t agree with something it all blows up and it’s really not going well. Plus he’s pretty rude (possibly accidentally) when he doesn’t think assets are up to scratch which isn’t hugely appreciated.

Rubaedo 18-Nov-20 03:20 PM

Yeah, I'll try and talk to him. He can be a bit of a loose cannon for sure.

1shoedpunk 18-Nov-20 03:22 PM

This is beyond being maybe accidentally rude - he's specifically telling three department directors and a lead that he's not going to do something

Please let us know how the conversation with him goes. I don't think we want to continue working with him if this is how he works with others.

1shoedpunk 19-Nov-20 08:31 PM

@Sol @Rubaedo have you spoken with mathy? He hasn't posted anything in the Cyrodiil server since the other day.

Sol 20-Nov-20 12:40 AM

@Rubaedo has been, I think

Rubaedo 20-Nov-20 12:41 AM

Yes, sorry, busy day. Yeah, Ive spoken with Mathy. It sounds like tensions are high rn, so he's going to step back for a bit and we're gonna see about finding someone else to fill that void, so long as that's alright by ya'll.

Bellatrix 20-Nov-20 04:41 AM

That sounds great. Thanks!

Rubaedo 20-Nov-20 10:11 PM

Nw! We're sorry things blew up like that. I love mathy to pieces but he can be very opinionated and doesn't really know how to back down. I hope this doesn't damage our collaboration at all.

Bellatrix 21-Nov-20 04:57 AM

It shouldn’t do. We need to figure out how we can still work closely on the plants but there’s absolutely no animosity on our side!

1shoedpunk 22-Nov-20 01:43 AM

Ditto

Firenight 10-Dec-20 01:57 PM

The AU has an important announcement to make. Effective today, Deisabri has been banned from the AU due to evidence backed allegations of misconduct. This compilation of evidence-backed allegations were brought forward to the Alinor leads and AU Triumvirate which demonstrated a clear breach of our trust, and the safety of its member. This is unacceptable behaviour for a representative of the AU and is a gross misuse of power. Because of this, we unanimously decided to both demote and ban Deis from the AU. If you so choose, you can remove her from your servers.

ub3rman123 10-Dec-20 02:33 PM

I would like to have the evidence forwarded to me prior to removal from the IB server.

Firenight 10-Dec-20 02:42 PM

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1X6ZjdyV9RbS8CKuhiG-s_6qY9lyeKnZv @ub3rman123

Robcbwilson 10-Dec-20 03:12 PM

Please make sure this is not shared outside the Council

Firenight 10-Dec-20 03:12 PM

^

Bellatrix 11-Dec-20 02:53 AM

Don’t we need to do this properly? As in if it’s so bad it warrants a whole BS ban we need to investigate it as per the charter?

Robcbwilson 11-Dec-20 03:52 AM

She has not been banned from Atmora as things stand.

Or Elsweyr

Does the investigation start from Alinor or the AU? The evidence of course will be the same, but who puts the case together will be different

Bellatrix 11-Dec-20 04:28 AM

Alinor isn’t a BS project!?!

If the AU thinks what went on is serious enough that it warrants a full BS ban then they need to tell us and we need to look into it.

If not then no one should be encouraging other projects to purge someone.

Tobi was different as he’d voluntarily left BS so that was making sure he really had left.

Robcbwilson 11-Dec-20 04:34 AM

I know, I was just making sure

With Alinor being a partner of the AU, I just wanted to be certain

Bellatrix 11-Dec-20 06:38 AM

Following on from directors chat. As per the charter, if Desi thinks she has been unfairly removed and it can’t be resolved within the AU she can ask the council to step in. Also, if the AU feels what went on was so bad it warrants further action they can bring a complaint and ask us to investigate. If neither of those things happen nothing happens.

ub3rman123 11-Dec-20 09:41 AM

I'm not going to be removing Deis from IB.

Hannes821 11-Dec-20 10:20 AM

ok. we will see what she thinks the next days. i dont think she wants to get back in there. but the announcement hurt her from what she said. I suggested her to let it be but she feels unfairly treated. But i dont think that bringing her back to AU would make any sense. I guess her interest is restoring her reputation and being regular maybe.

i think this was unnecessary

Rubaedo 11-Dec-20 03:22 PM

@here I have to say, I am incredibly shocked and disappointed that this has been a contentious issue here. A major figure in our project covering for sexual predation and grooming should not something that requires a deft touch or much debate. The AU team has provided an overwhelming amount of evidence and the testimony of multiple victims of Dei and Nipzo's behavior. Were this to be revealed publically we would be at the centre of an enormous amount of controversy. I am entirely uncomfortable continuing to work with any members of this project who continue to defend this sort of behavior. I don't intend to escalate, but I feel the need to make it clear that the behavior of many of you in this discussion has irrevocably damaged the working relationships between yourself and both Morrowind and Black Marsh.

Bellatrix 11-Dec-20 03:31 PM

This is what’s really annoying. It’s all been covered up. I vaguely know 3rd hand what might have happened, but if people actually have a complaint then for heavens sake actually bring it to the council so we can do our job.

Because at the moment it’s all just hearsay.

Rubaedo 11-Dec-20 03:35 PM

@Bellatrix were you not given access to the AU document explaining their ban?

It contained an enormous amount of direct evidence

Bellatrix 11-Dec-20 03:36 PM

And that’s not you saying OMGz Desi definitely did it. That’s a formal complaint asking us to investigate with a complaint backed up by evidence and a chance for the defendant to put over their side as we’ve done for everyone before.

As per the charter

As we did for bard and everyone before

And yes it takes time and effort. Me and rob spend weeks writing up the hard complaint and got a load of shit in the process.

Rubaedo 11-Dec-20 03:43 PM

We already have the evidence Claire. This isn't a question of judgement, its a question of action. We already have proof she did what she is accused of doing. There is nothing to defend here. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1X6ZjdyV9RbS8CKuhiG-s_6qY9lyeKnZv

Bellatrix 11-Dec-20 03:43 PM

You need to go through it, itemise which Charter rules have been broken and ask us to investigate it. (edited)

Then we will.

It’s what me and rob had to do with bard.

If no one can be arsed doing that then it’s not a complaint. (edited)

And the investigation is a full council investigation where the defendant gets to address the pints raised. As we did with bard.

As is also outlined in the charter

I’m fairly sure you were part of that process.

As in the last council investigation into Bards behaviour.

Rubaedo 11-Dec-20 03:52 PM

All of these actions fall solely under the (very broad) category of bringing Beyond Skyrim into disrepute, as laid out in section 5.6.4. of the charter. No other sections exist for abusive behavior or sexual misconduct, or covering up thereof. The evidence has already been collated by the AU, in the documents linked above. I had assumed this was self evident, but apparently not.

Bellatrix 11-Dec-20 03:53 PM

So are you asking for a formal complaint?

I also find it really weird that literally moths after I told this chat that something had gone on then had to deal with getting Tobi reported that people are now loosing their shot about it. Maybe next time do it at the time.

I mean discord are literally still emailing me about it and all I got from here was a shrug of indifference.

Rubaedo 11-Dec-20 03:57 PM

I think it's been long since established that attendance and participation in this specific chatline is sporadic at the best of times.

That said, yes, I am making a formal complaint.

Bellatrix 11-Dec-20 03:58 PM

Right we’ll if you think it warrants a formal complaint then we need to set up a server outlining the claims against desi. (edited)

Same as we did with bard. Need an outline of the complaint and which bits of the charted it violates then all of the council not involved directly need to investigate what went on.

Robcbwilson 11-Dec-20 04:00 PM

Am I considered directly involved?

I would assume not

Bellatrix 11-Dec-20 04:18 PM

I dunno? Anyway how it happened last time wa a me rob and katie wrote up the complaint, then made a server inviting all the council with the exception of bard who we were complaining about which I guess doesn’t apply in this case, outlined our compaintand it went from there. (edited)

Robcbwilson 11-Dec-20 04:19 PM

Yes, if I remember rightly, last time I was able to see the server with the exception of the channel where the deliberations took place

Bellatrix 11-Dec-20 04:20 PM

Me and rob then got removed from the investigation as we’d brought the complaint so I don’t have a scoobs what happened next. (edited)

Robcbwilson 11-Dec-20 04:20 PM

Aside from the final decision

Bellatrix 11-Dec-20 04:21 PM

Yeah. I meant the process.

Robcbwilson 11-Dec-20 04:21 PM

Yes

We were completely unaware of what happened between the start and the end

Bellatrix

I also find it really weird that literally moths after I told this chat that something had gone on then had to deal with getting Tobi reported that people are now loosing their shot about it. Maybe next time do it at the time.

Meglos (Morrowind) 12-Dec-20 02:49 AM

I seem to remember there was a general unanimous movement to ban him from all servers that didn't warrant a whole lot of discussion because the issue was so obviously clear-cut

I feel like that should be the same case here, and I don't understand the controversy about banning someone who's been proven to have engaged in such behaviour.

Hannes821 12-Dec-20 04:00 AM

No matter what you say how striking the evidence may be

This is not the appropriate process just kicking people out without talking to them

And frankly, all of that sounds very different from deisabris perspective

So if you believe this Charta and our leadership values are worth anything then you stop burying the topic

Else it is me who looses my belief

Apparently other leads asked her to always act the way she did

And apparently they always agreed on these moves

So claiming that she protected misbehaving people is flawed

If you think you want to go this way because looking at the actual case would be inconvenient, then I will not bother you anymore

There was a conviction without an investigation

Asher and fire have effectively triggered drama without a need and also violated the Charta on how to act in such cases

@everyone is there anything more to say?

Or do you believe everyone here can just do whatever they feel like, if they have a few friends?

That's mostly a reaction on rubaedo.

I believe that the triumvirate didn't know any better

But they should know, that they are in duty to get an objective view themselves

It is very interesting that you, rubaedo said, we gathered evidence.

At what point where you in charge of au or alinor?

Hannes821 12-Dec-20 05:05 AM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14epWGNMjGonMot9tnX-ynoe5N9uHub6HfeCf-fh7KOk/edit?usp=sharing

Deisabri

Dear Members, I want to give you my version of the events described in the accusations. I know defending myself is futile, but I do this for my dignity and to clean my name. When acting as a lead of the Arcane University and Alinor, the wellbeing of my students and developers had the highest pri...

Robcbwilson 12-Dec-20 05:08 AM

I hate to say this Hannes, but you crossed the line posting that in the Department Directors channel. It is confidential information on a case in front of the Council. That is never OK

Hannes821 12-Dec-20 05:11 AM

I didn't have the impression that this is confidential

What qualifies it as such?

Robcbwilson 12-Dec-20 05:12 AM

It is evidence from Deis about this case is it not?

How is that not confidential

Hannes821 12-Dec-20 05:12 AM

It's at this stage one opinion against another, as I see it. However, one has the favour of public promotion, the other doesn't

Which is why i feel it is not fair

There are no evidence details inside

She does only react on the public information, but not use names

Robcbwilson 12-Dec-20 05:13 AM

It is not about public promotion, this is about following the correct procedure

Hannes821 12-Dec-20 05:14 AM

Then, we should do that since start.

And I believe we didn't open any investigation

It's only one person talking against another

Robcbwilson 12-Dec-20 05:15 AM

There was talk here of doing just that

By Rubaedo

If you want to do so instead then feel free as is your right

But do not post anymore information with regards to this in public channels

Hannes821 12-Dec-20 05:16 AM

I don't say deisabri is right. I also think only she is responsible for her actions

However, the way this is being dealt with is not fair

Robcbwilson 12-Dec-20 05:17 AM

Fair in terms of the BS charter is to open an investigation as we did with Bard

Hannes821 12-Dec-20 05:21 AM

Or not not just throw sanctions and kill reputation if they want to keep it small

Which is still possible.

Au is done.

Robcbwilson 12-Dec-20 05:21 AM

We cannot comment on the judgment of an investigation that has not even started Hannes

Hannes821 12-Dec-20 05:21 AM

Yes.

I just felt we really should not need to be here.

Wish you have a nice day.

Robcbwilson 12-Dec-20 05:22 AM

And you!

Hannes821 12-Dec-20 05:36 AM

I might be wrong about her, I have doubts, too. And there is no excuse for manipulation or rule bending. However, I stand up to the idea that we should follow the procedures. Or seek mediation. If she what she responds is not true, then I do not think she will be able to restore her reputation which was what she was talking about. If some things others had been talking about is true, she might disconnect with her bs teams sooner or later because we wouldn't tolerate this either. But I don't know any better.

1shoedpunk 13-Dec-20 02:14 PM

Alinor has nothing to do with us from an administrative perspective.

I think that the ban and demotion so far has been appropriate, Deis is not in a position to allow anything like what happened previously to happen again.

I would be really hard pressed to find a reason to punish her further. Nothing new has happened, we have no indication that her being a regular member has the potential to cause any harm similar to what's already happened.

I also think that there's a question of who has the right to bring a case against her with new information? Right now it feels like double jeopardy, she's being prosecuted for the same thing twice without any new evidence.

The AU made a judgement and so far I haven't heard anyone say that was too much. Elevation to the council is the solution when a project can't reach a verdict and determine a punishment on their own. That's already happened.

If individual leads wish to ban her based off the case I believe that they have a right to, but I don't think Cyrodiil will be unless new information comes to light that she remains a threat.

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 04:26 AM

For the protocol: 1. Deis is innocent until proved otherwise, calling her a threat is inappropriate. Her reasoning is equally believable. 2. Said victim is a core member in one of my teams and said they are alright & friends with Deis. Leads told her she did react well. damage Ratio Deisabri/AU ban? 3. Sanctioning her without confronting her is a violation of the charter, it is a lead responsibility to seek mediation and don't act arbitrarily. 4. People spoke up against the ban in AU and got instantly banned, too, escalating the situation, including my 3d dep lead. They just asked for hearing both sides there. 5. My team disagrees this was handled well, many people saw what happened in AU. 6. I accept the outcome of the situation. However, the public impression is disastrous. congratulations. I have no interest in any investigations vs AU triumvirate or case of Deisabri in Alinor. 7. We all should have a general interest in how conflicts are dealt with in the future here. 8. We hope (please!) that the leads of Beyond Skyrim will next time avoid drama by talking with each other instead of cannibalization. Sadly, it seems to me this pattern continues from the very start until today, born from convenience. I was so hoping this ended last time. Everyone who is looking away or says "if nobody complains, then it was alright" supports this mentality of subduing others. Yes, everyone is tired of this. which is why it should be done differently. So we don't get this again. 7. Do not damage people's names or our community publicly without further consideration. I hope you can agree to that on a general level. We do this for us, too, and the accused. 8. It is not on the accused to seek mediation or investigate, it is on the independent lead(s) who have the responsibility for order in their teams. 9. Any amendment of the charter cannot outrule the fundamental principles of the charter. 10. It would be a sign of goodwill if Asher/fireknight would say sorry here.

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 04:46 AM

i am still now trying deisabri to stop pursuing this case. i dont want any further discusssions. She would like to have her ban revoked and an apology, but this will be complicated. Do any of you have an idea how we can handle this situation? We dont want another long investigation, do we?

i certainly dont

Robcbwilson 14-Dec-20 05:09 AM

I take strong objection to number 10. I fail to see how Asher and Fire mishandled this, much less how they should be forced to apologise here.

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 05:16 AM

i see you. i had the impression she wasnt heard. but i accept your opinion. This is just pro forma, my opinion. okay. it is up to them, i do not insist on anything.

i cannot, either way

Robcbwilson 14-Dec-20 05:18 AM

I suggest in that case that you remove number 10

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 05:38 AM

would it not appear in the moderation then? Let me just say, that i cut number ten like that

Robcbwilson 14-Dec-20 05:38 AM

So you are asking for evidence?

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 05:38 AM

did i?

no

why?

i mean if i edit the message above, which is confidential according to you, then it appears in the mod channel by the bot

this is really just a soft note: it would be nice - its just something i would wish, in a perfect world. it means nothing, pragmatically.

Robcbwilson 14-Dec-20 05:41 AM

Everything in this channel is confidential

Not according to me, it just is. (edited)

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 05:42 AM

yes, i just mean if i edit this, it will be duplicated with the remark "before" and "after"

right?

yes it is.

Robcbwilson 14-Dec-20 05:43 AM

Edits appear here

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 05:44 AM

yes, and we dont want that right? so i just say, ignore number 10, mentally. its alright

Robcbwilson 14-Dec-20 05:45 AM

It should be moved ideally (the moderation logs that is)

1

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 05:49 AM

i was talking to her now for so many hours, to make her accept this situation. Apparently, her character is reasoned by negative childhood, in general, so that reputation and social connections are very important to her; already as of "taking care of others too much", I believe this is how things went down the wrong way. Please consider this when talking about her. from what she says she will not appeal now. This is obviously confidential personal information. I hope we can close this then.

Meglos (Morrowind) 14-Dec-20 08:26 AM

Moved the moderation logs to the council category; I'm a little bit confused Hannes when you say that there is no evidence against Deisabri, I saw a whole bunch of really damning stuff from her that warranted her a ban from MW based on our own policies.

Robcbwilson 14-Dec-20 08:26 AM

Thanks Meglos, that is a much more appropriate place for the logs to be

1

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 08:28 AM

i dont say there is no evidence, i say that she also gathered explanations for each of these.

all i say is that it hasnt been decided on the matter putting these 2 points of view on the table inside bs.

which is, again, not necessary at this point

but, we cant act as if there was an investigation against her inside bs.

and as i said, i accept what has been done

just my personal opinion and maybe that of others is, maybe it could have been resolved with demotion and not ban. maybe, doesnt matter anymoe

Meglos (Morrowind) 14-Dec-20 08:32 AM

Well, each province can handle it as they see fit, I suppose. We on MW decided that it was best to protect our other members from potential future harm rather than take a risk on the off-chance that the claims weren't true

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 08:36 AM

I understand you

Of course we worry for our members too

Rubaedo 14-Dec-20 10:15 AM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/10-hs2VIDbvY6lHf2juoSriR5U6uR5ohA2iGSrPzd5tg/edit?usp=sharing @here

Deisabri Formal Complaints

The Arcane University’s accusations against Deisabri can be summarized as follows: General mismanagement of her leadership position Breach of trust by exposing private AU leadership discussions to the rest of the team Knowing protection of abusive or dangerous members The first complaint is int...

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 10:33 AM

okay. yes

we can talk about these suggestions

i suggest block sentence formate

i would like to add though, the argumentation of the AU leadership was not her damaging BS but rather, her being fallen out of trust with third parties, especially alinor, and therefore she would have to be automatically removed

now i see that you agree this was not the case, and you are looking into accusations against her back from alinor, is that correct?

what exact charter amendment do you suggest then?

i mean the likeliehood of agreement depends on the contents

we could always informally agree, if we are convinced, yes.

i would have to talk with alinor and look at their evidence to actually understand the accusations

i avoided that so far, in detail

imagine your case was true, if i understand your suggestion correctly. Someone was banned from a team, and then all other teams have to ban that person as well, without having an evaluation of the situation for themselves. Accusing parties would basically, and without indipendent checks, do staff management for all of BS.

imagine i would ban a core member of MW from my team, if there was one

and then this rule forces you to exclude them from your team

you wouldnt like that, would you?

Larrian (Morrowind) 14-Dec-20 10:47 AM

hannes I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding the point of ruba's doc

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 10:48 AM

yeah maybe

Bellatrix 14-Dec-20 10:48 AM

I think this is irrelivent now Hannes. As far as I can tell we’ve been asked to do a formal investigation?

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 10:48 AM

not by me!

Bellatrix 14-Dec-20 10:48 AM

By Rubaedo

Rubaedo 14-Dec-20 10:48 AM

1

Bellatrix 14-Dec-20 10:48 AM

Ah crap. Missed that. So what is this then?

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 10:49 AM

adding said rule i guess, which is why i tried to rephrase and understand it

1shoedpunk 14-Dec-20 10:49 AM

As far as I'm concerned the AU internal investigation and ban were appropriate.

I would vote to uphold what they determined.

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 10:49 AM

didnt we all agree that its fine, now

lets move on

but whatever you feel is appropriate

we can of course formally vote for that

1shoedpunk 14-Dec-20 10:58 AM

@Rubaedo I understand where you're coming from with that but we don't need to do anything further. Deisabri is banned from the AU as is their right and each individual project has a right to ban her based off this as well. I don't believe there is a basis for further action.

Cyrodiil bans people without bringing it to the council every single time

If it's serious we'll let other leads know so they can act if they choose to

Rubaedo 14-Dec-20 11:03 AM

The point of this document was to point out that there are some fundamental holes in the way we determine the severity of an infraction, and that the variance between interpretations of severity are what led to this dispute. In the eastern provinces, the actions Deisabri took are things we consider major infractions and worthy not just of a ban but assurance that none of our members would be forced to work with her in the future. In other projects that isn't necessarily the case. As I stated in the document, this is a question of personal judgement regarding how serious these actions actually are, and therefore us coming to anything resembling a settled conclusion is a distant dream at best. (edited)

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 11:05 AM

And I said that it's a bit quick to consider a judgement. But some teams don't need to hear or see both sides. And we work with them. That's fine as well

Bellatrix 14-Dec-20 11:05 AM

I think it’s a difference in style. She didn’t do anything on either of the projects I’m a lead on that would warrant a ban. Therefore before we did ban her I’d want to know exactly what went on and that involved me directly hearing from both sides.

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 11:06 AM

Also, yes it's a question of leadership. I banned like 2 poeple in all my life.

Bellatrix 14-Dec-20 11:06 AM

Which is the point of a council investigation.

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 11:06 AM

Consider this

I always got my team into cooperation and team work and respect

1shoedpunk 14-Dec-20 11:09 AM

It's less a judgement of how serious the action is and more a question of is the punishment that's already been meted out appropriate?

Her not being in a leadership position anymore precludes her from being able to repeat her mistakes.

If she had been the one doing the harassment it would be a different story.

Bellatrix 14-Dec-20 11:10 AM

The part with Tobi that did directly involve Cyrodiil involved the grooming of adults by Tobi to give him cover for what he was trying to do. My sister is a psychologist and I got her to help me with what my legal responsibilities were when I found out about Tobi and she pointed it out to me. So in this case I absolutely would want to know exactly what went on, who was manipulating whom etc.

The fact then when I keep saying if it’s so bad (I have no idea what Desi did, we found out through another route) no one is willing to bring a complaint makes it impossible for me to know what to do. Other to keep an eye out.

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 11:21 AM

yeah, you can read her version above. she did explain that from her perspective.

so together with the provided evidence, you shouldnt miss anything

i feel like we have access to all information we need at this point

its more a question of if further escalation makes sense

Bellatrix 14-Dec-20 11:27 AM

Ah ok. But if we do go further I’d like to be able to ask questions directly rather than rely on 2nd or 3rd hand accounts of who did what and who contests what.

Which again is the whole point of an investigation....

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 11:35 AM

I heard you asked around to have this investigation. But I don't see what will be the benefit for us as community. Or is it because you want to not be legally liable for anything? I don't think you are.

Hannes821 14-Dec-20 05:17 PM

she leaves BS for at least a few weeks, maybe permanently.

she said

Bellatrix 15-Dec-20 08:00 AM

It’s not that I’m personally bothered about myself legally (although I think it’s not unwise given some of the stuff that Tobi did is almost certainly a real world crime), I’m just concerned that there seems to be a lot of very serious stuff going on that doesn’t get to the council.

And also that if we’re going to ban someone it has to be done properly.

But personally I’d like to hear 1st hand what happened with both Tobi and Nipzo, how many people knew, who was apparently covering it up, is it a wider problem, was it just Desi and the AU and it’s definitely sorted now etc.

I mean officially I still don’t know anything about Nipzo. I’ve heard rumours and there’s some stuff surfaced on the documents this week but that’s it really and apparently months after it happened.

Rubaedo 15-Dec-20 08:28 AM

I'd also like to point out that the screenshots collected by the AU have seemingly been deleted from their folder.

Something smells very off about this honestly.

Hannes821 15-Dec-20 08:35 AM

i didnt touch anything.

but wasnt this evidence all stuff from Alinor?

and didnt these guys leave?

Rubaedo 15-Dec-20 08:36 AM

I'm not accusing you. I believe the folder was put together by the AU leadership, but I don't know why they would delete it.

Hannes821 15-Dec-20 08:36 AM

you should see in the history who deleted it, if thats true

yeah, i am just saying that, to be sure

i completely deleted this topic out of my brain last night

and it felt so good

Rubaedo 15-Dec-20 08:37 AM

How do you check the history? Pardon the technological illiteracy.

Hannes821 15-Dec-20 08:37 AM

there should be a botton on the right top

"activities"

the other is "details" i believe

Rubaedo 15-Dec-20 08:38 AM

Thanks!

Hannes821 15-Dec-20 08:38 AM

oh let me check in my drive

you are welcome

sorry for the bad shape scribbling.

so first details, the little gear icon

then "activities" at the right there.

Rubaedo 15-Dec-20 08:39 AM

Does anyone know a "Hassan Alam?"

Hannes821 15-Dec-20 08:39 AM

ouch,

so the owner has it

who is the owner

?

ah its written there, pardon my stupid comment

so thats the person from alinor.

Robcbwilson 15-Dec-20 11:31 AM

Ok, so I can confirm that the evidence was removed as there was a concern about it being leaked

Here is the link once more

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1G6KmPhUFxV593nCMqUHJXNZgZC8CMcMF

The evidence was put together by someone from Alinor, who has no links to the AU leadership

Larrian (Morrowind) 15-Dec-20 12:18 PM

thank you Rob

2

Rubaedo 15-Dec-20 03:28 PM

Thank you very much

2

Hannes821 16-Dec-20 04:59 AM

Reddit: Will Beyond Skyrim move more content to the Xbox Series X with its higher capabilities? that's also an interesting option, no?

Sol 16-Dec-20 05:08 AM

I suppose it depends on how big a mod the series X allows you to download and store (edited)

1

Bellatrix 16-Dec-20 05:19 AM

^

Bellatrix 23-Dec-20 11:09 AM

I know most people are probably busy cos it's Christmas, but for once I have some free time cos it's Christmas.

Anyway, we're trying to tidy up BSAssets a bit in Cyrodiil and have a few spreadsheets of what we think are old outdated assets that should be deleted. Obviously we can do that but then some provinces are using them (cyrodiil was using some due to the odd designer going a bit too far with the artistic license vs our style guide:) and in the odd case we may want to keep them (at least for now) but in order to ever tidy it up we need to get other provinces involved cos of course you all use some of them too (possibly also unintentionally).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1atp1wiEn7L4R-67BHSKQFFkwPClzC2ilnzhHJn5oTag/edit#gid=0

BSAssets cleanup

Sheet1 TREES,Usage,Removed,INGREDIENTS,Usage,Removed,FLORA,Usage,Removed,FURNITURES,Usage,STATIC,Usage,ARMOR,Usage,NPC (actor) + RACE,Usage BSEdjeflorasnowberryyellow02,Iliac Bay,BSEdjenightshadeGreen01,Iliac Bay, Heartlands,BSKHangingLavender01,Heartlands,should be kept,BSKARDoor01STAT_OLD_DONO...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gyoGGYH-lWjTkMuePoMArJ4bIppbg5cweOgYwoZkD3c/edit#gid=1799300696

BSAssets Usage

TREE_All Green: good assets,Yellow: should be deleted but used a lot / placeholders Red: strong candidate for deletion; very few use cases or broken model,No colour: unsure See TREE_export for tree asset use in BSassets provinces Keep,Delete,Form,NOTES BSEdjefloracabbagered01[BSAssets.esm]:TREE ...

Hannes821 23-Dec-20 04:00 PM

guess not interesting for me. Nice that you work so hard on getting everything sorted

Sol 23-Dec-20 04:24 PM

Yeah, great job! Seems like a bit of pain in the ass to do

Rubaedo 24-Dec-20 10:36 AM

Great job Claire, I can’t imagine how tedious that was.

Bellatrix 24-Dec-20 10:50 AM

Oh it was a team effort - Ro and Were need most of the credit and yeah pretty tedious.

Rubaedo 24-Dec-20 11:44 AM

Well in that case let em know I give my thanks ❤️

Bellatrix 26-Dec-20 11:44 AM

I've sorted out heartlands and roscrea so we're not using any of the stuff identified in the not flora list

1

I suspect most of the use instances are with people getting a bit over creative

Hannes821 26-Dec-20 03:01 PM

Desperate lds who wish for more assets to work with

1shoedpunk 26-Dec-20 09:17 PM

New BSAssets merge is up

2

Hannes821 27-Dec-20 10:55 AM

NMGMÖ _

4

sorry my daughters

Robcbwilson 02-Jan-21 02:22 PM

I have just been informed of something which could potentially be very damaging to not only BS but other modding projects:

The people involved so far (confirmed) are not part of BS, but there is mention of BS Devs being on the server

If I get any additional information, I will share it here

Bellatrix 02-Jan-21 03:23 PM

Errrrm

Rubaedo 02-Jan-21 03:47 PM

@here Worth taking a look at these.

Personally, unless we can find more solid evidence I'd prefer we keep this quiet.

But at the very least, maybe we could draft and reaffirm a code of conduct? No mention of this, but it would be good to say something like "bigoted or fascist opinions are not welcome here." (edited)

Bellatrix 02-Jan-21 03:53 PM

I think leave it a few weeks so it’s not obvious how we know and then say something.

At least a reminder that bringing BS into disrepute is banworthy

Rubaedo 02-Jan-21 03:54 PM

Yeah that sounds good

I can write up a brief internal memo for when the time is right, if people like.

Maybe save it for February? Black History Month?

Rubaedo 02-Jan-21 05:21 PM

Also at the risk of being a little frivolous, I can't help but laugh at "Oh we just have a dark sense of humor!" While the 'humor' is just boring racist screeds.

Bellatrix 03-Jan-21 04:03 AM

Yeah. Everything about that was just so wrong yet so pathetic. Such edgelords

‍♀️

Robcbwilson 03-Jan-21 04:28 AM

I am tying to get someone on the server and will be hopefully able to provide a full list of members soon (thought someone was on already, but it appears that they aren't yet) (edited)

Hannes821 03-Jan-21 08:25 AM

ouch. this never stops.

we need strict rules

our community should not be part of such things.

Robcbwilson 03-Jan-21 08:29 AM

Yes, I agree. I think it is also a good idea regardless of the outcome of this that we do reinforce what we expect of everyone

Bellatrix 03-Jan-21 09:25 AM

We could maybe do it as a new year new start? Frame it as generally a fab place for everyone to be but a few incidents last year, here's a reminder of the rules and oh yeah that does include everywhere that you're representing BS...?

Who's diplomatic at phrasing things?

Rubaedo 03-Jan-21 11:35 AM

Oh a new year thing would be a great way of phrasing it

Gimme a bit and I’ll try and scratch out a rough draft

1shoedpunk 03-Jan-21 10:52 PM

Do we know the name of the server?

And has any of this reached any of the subreddits or twitter accounts?

I'm thinking that this is a targeted action by an online white supremacist group.

I'm on a elder scrolls community server that Bethesda set up to interface with other groups. If we find evidence supporting that theory, we can interface with people pretty quickly.

I feel like I should share this with them, especially if other projects are part of it. It's not going to just be a mark against the modding community, it's going to affect their IP

Robcbwilson 04-Jan-21 03:49 AM

The server is called Albuquerque

1shoedpunk 04-Jan-21 04:14 AM

I misread the chatlog, sorry

Sounds like a breaking bad reference

Deleted references to the name in my reply

Is there any indication as to who started it?

Robcbwilson 04-Jan-21 05:23 AM

No problem at all, here is the image without the names

I also did likewise

Yes, it is a Breaking Bad reference from what I understand. I haven't seen the show but isn't it about a drug dealer? (Not that it is relevant to this

)

I don't yet know who started it, I am still trying to get people on the server

Bellatrix 04-Jan-21 05:29 AM

You need to delete the moderation logs too incase anyone goes looking (I know some people do keep an eye on moderation logs). Not sure if that’s a server owner level permission?

Robcbwilson 04-Jan-21 05:34 AM

Good call and done!

Of course, everything here is confidential but you can never be too careful

Bellatrix 04-Jan-21 07:22 AM

We have two elders in the outpost - are either of them the same person?

Yeah I think they are it looks like Elder#0798 has the same profile pic as in your screengrab?

1shoedpunk 04-Jan-21 08:32 AM

Does 0798 indicate an early signup for discord?

Robcbwilson 04-Jan-21 09:30 AM

It is the middle one

Bellatrix 04-Jan-21 09:35 AM

Is it worth flagging up with the mods on the outpost?

Robcbwilson 04-Jan-21 09:37 AM

That the server exists?

Bellatrix 04-Jan-21 09:41 AM

Yeah. I mean I’m not sure what if anything we’re doing other than reminding anyone not to bring us into disrepute.

But I’m not sure I’m that comfortable with someone who’s not on BS but has been recruiting people for such a dodgy server to be in our outpost. Although I guess if they’re not doing that there they probably aren’t breaking our rules...?

Robcbwilson 04-Jan-21 10:43 AM

Until we get more information (assuming we can), the only reasonable thing we can do is remind everyone not to bring us into disrepute.

1

Rubaedo 04-Jan-21 02:08 PM

WIP Announcement, please give feedback Hello everyone! As we enter into the new year, it's inevitable that we'll be reflecting on the past one. 2020 was a hard year for all of us. Beyond all the pain and confusion in the rest of the world, Beyond Skyrim met with some hiccups and drama which hurt a lot of people. As we look to the new year, we in the council felt it would be good to reafirm some of our beliefs. Beyond Skyrim has always been intended as, and will always remain, a safe space for all vulnerable people. We do not discriminate based on race, ethnicity, sexuality, gender, appearance, neurovariance, or any other social category, and those who do discriminate based on these categories are not welcome here. We are here to make the best product we possibly can. In order to do that, we must be unwilling to bring Beyond Skyrim into disrepute, and we must be willing to respect and honor all vulnerable peoples who contribute their talents to our project. (edited)

Bellatrix 04-Jan-21 02:14 PM

I’m generally quite cold but the second paragraph is a bit stronger than I’d do. Definitely put a link to the charter between the first and second paragraphs so people can see this has always been the case.

I mean they should know that anyway but we should reinforce it.

How about "Beyond Skyrim has always been a warm and friendly community for all members. We do not discriminated based on race, ethnicity, sexuality, gender, appearance, neurovariance, or any other social category. We are here to make the best product we possibly can. In order to do that, we must be unwilling to bring Beyond Skyrim into disrepute, and we must be willing to respect and honour all Beyond Skyrim members."

And I jsut realised it's discriminate not discrimintated but there's no way I'm editing it in case anyone spots it before it's ready to go out in the wild

Hannes821 04-Jan-21 03:56 PM

Typo

We do not discriminate

I think the d below is not necessarily at the start

Robcbwilson 04-Jan-21 03:57 PM

Claire already spotted it

Hannes821 04-Jan-21 03:57 PM

Ah.

Yeah. Maybe we keep the warm and optimistic tone of Claire?

It's still the same message

Right?

Bellatrix 04-Jan-21 04:25 PM

Haha. And there was me saying I was cold. I was trying to make it super neutral so people can't quibble with it whilst at the same time making it absolutely clear that we do not tolerate this crap.

That is one thing that's genuinely really good about BS. I know we're not perfect but I've only experienced any sexism about twice in the (lots) of years I've been here which is pretty amazing for a gaming community.

Hannes821 04-Jan-21 04:45 PM

maybe because we arent anymore the teenagers

1shoedpunk 04-Jan-21 09:23 PM

I feel like the last two sentences imply something

I don't think a blanket statement like this is going to prevent people from joining that server

I don't think this is an isolated incident with just a handful of people

Even if it isn't an outside group targeting the modding community, they intend to invite more people.

1shoedpunk 04-Jan-21 09:51 PM

I've asked Rebelzize if he's heard of it. No reply yet but I'm pretty sure he's not involved. If he is we've got a much bigger problem.

I didn't say what the server was, just the name and if he'd heard of it.

Bellatrix 05-Jan-21 01:54 AM

They said 18 people? I don’t think it’s a big thing I think it’s just a small bunch of idiot. Think about how many people get banned from the outpost on a monthly basis.

As in elder said 18 people were on the server. Across the whole modding community that’s basically no one.

Rubaedo 05-Jan-21 01:59 AM

Yeah, I'm honestly not that concerned. Just put up a face saying bigotry isnt welcome and I'm happy, personally. A few people saying slurs at each other on a private server isn't dangerous, its just kinda pathetic.

1shoedpunk 05-Jan-21 01:40 PM

I'm concerned because they've expressed intention of growing it, plus if anyone at all prominent on any of the projects is in there and it comes out to the public that's going to be a huge mark against that project.

This is literally how white supremacist groups recruit people online. It starts with 18 people across all projects then everyone there invites a couple friends, maybe they tone it down a bit to make recruitment easier.

Flash forward a couple of months and they could have hundreds of members.

Hannes821 05-Jan-21 01:52 PM

I need to be careful. We have a very mature and human and educated team, but especially Northern provinces can take damage given how easy their lore could be hijacked by people with other motifs that are against the elderscrolls immersion

Hannes821 05-Jan-21 02:29 PM

honestly if i was a game designer and would make a fantasy world, i would probably not use "races"

Bellatrix 05-Jan-21 03:01 PM

I don't really see what we can do. We don't know who's on it if anyone from BS. @Robcbwilson I'd definitely report that conversation to Discord though. Fairly sure the server will violate their ToS so they should shut it down.

If it ever does become public with people from BS on it we ban them (because that definitely violates the charter because it will have brought us into disrepute) and release a press statement confirming it's nothing to do with our views (link to charter) and the members have been removed from BS.

Hannes821 05-Jan-21 03:10 PM

Both roscrea and atmora are relatively close to a release so any bad publicity would now especially be bad for everyone

Bellatrix 05-Jan-21 03:10 PM

As for the statement how about...

Hello everyone! As we enter into the new year, it's inevitable that we'll be reflecting on the past one. 2020 was a hard year for all of us. Beyond all the pain and confusion in the rest of the world, Beyond Skyrim met with a few incidents which hurt a lot of people. As we look to the new year, we in the council felt it would be good to remind everyone of the charter we all signed up to which contains our code of conduct for behaviour within Beyond Skyrim and also externally where you may be seen to be representing Beyond Skyrim and reaffirm some our core values. Beyond Skyrim has always been a warm and friendly community for all members. We do not discriminate based on race, ethnicity, sexuality, gender, appearance, neurovariance, or any other social category. We are here to make the best product we possibly can and want to make sure BS is an environment where everyone feels comfortable as we all work towards the shared goal of building Tamriel! https://wiki.beyondskyrim.org/wiki/Beyond_Skyrim_Charter

Beyond Skyrim Charter

I've probably over corporatized it but in real life I've spent the whole day arguing with our HR team which seem to be trying to get my team killed by Covid so I'm absolutely full of corporate speak right now

Rubaedo 05-Jan-21 03:12 PM

Looks good to me! Sorry I wasnt as available as I could have been, didnt mean to dump it on ya'll

Bellatrix 05-Jan-21 03:15 PM

"If you ever have concerns about another members behaviour, please do speak to your province leads or alternatively any other lead you feel comfortable talking to."

On the end for good measure?

Rubaedo 05-Jan-21 03:16 PM

Oh yes, definitely

Bellatrix 05-Jan-21 03:17 PM

OK. Lets leave it a few days for anyone to object but TBH it's been a few days already so I assume anyone who wants to comment has done

Robcbwilson 05-Jan-21 03:25 PM

I think the message is perfect, will we post it on each team's server and the Dev server?

I have submitted a report to Discord, I am also still trying to get someone on the server

Bellatrix 05-Jan-21 03:26 PM

Makes sense - not everyone is on the dev server

Robcbwilson 05-Jan-21 03:26 PM

Yes, the vast majority of Elsweyr are not here

1shoedpunk 05-Jan-21 07:45 PM

I like that message

It stays positive without implying anything is out of the ordinary

We do always get the odd meme posted that requires moderator action

Bellatrix 06-Jan-21 03:01 AM

OK, who wants to do the honours?

Rubaedo 06-Jan-21 03:02 AM

I feel like there might be some residual skepticism about MW and BM, so it should probably not come from me.

Hannes821 06-Jan-21 03:22 AM

hmm maybe someone from a big team?

i feel like i have a "small voice"

Bellatrix 06-Jan-21 03:49 AM

I was actually thinking rob? Or 1shoe..?

1

Robcbwilson 06-Jan-21 04:31 AM

I can do it. I assume we @ everyone on the Dev server

1

Maybe also on the Dev channel on the Outpost

Bellatrix 06-Jan-21 05:09 AM

Yeah. Shall we go with Friday?

Give this channel a little more time?

Robcbwilson 06-Jan-21 05:31 AM

Friday works for me

Bellatrix 07-Jan-21 05:43 AM

Let us know when so we can all be lined up to like it.

Hannes821 07-Jan-21 06:44 AM

Wow, sounds like a conspiracy

Of course I support it

Bellatrix 07-Jan-21 06:50 AM

Well I was more think if so it doesn’t sound like it’s just Rob:)

Hannes821 07-Jan-21 06:55 AM

Yes exactly. Of course it should be clear that we all agree on our values. That's important, especially in such times.

I was just making fun, sorry

Robcbwilson 07-Jan-21 06:59 AM

I was thinking 18:00 GMT

Devs_Only here and the Dev Room on the Outpost

Then leads can also post it on their own Dev servers

2

Robcbwilson 07-Jan-21 08:26 AM

Also, knowing what time the announcements are going up will enable people to be here to answer questions etc

Rather than it all just falling on me

Robcbwilson 07-Jan-21 09:55 AM

I finally have confirmation that there are no BS Devs on Albuquerque. The only Dev is on Esironet. I have notified their leadership already

Hannes821 07-Jan-21 01:01 PM

i guess thats really good news, but of course we should still do that announcement

Robcbwilson 07-Jan-21 01:10 PM

Oh yes, the announcement should absolutely go ahead

Robcbwilson 08-Jan-21 12:27 PM

Just over half an hour until I drop the announcement

Hannes821 08-Jan-21 01:01 PM

Just saw it

Robcbwilson 08-Jan-21 01:01 PM

It has been done

Hannes821 08-Jan-21 01:01 PM

Maybe you should have pinged here hahha

Okay I liked it

1

Posted a copy in my team

Robcbwilson 08-Jan-21 01:03 PM

Thanks, saw it

Hannes821 08-Jan-21 01:03 PM

@everyone maybe it's better for the other teams to ping quickly here so we do this together

Bellatrix 08-Jan-21 01:10 PM

Done for Roscrea and cyrodiil.

1

Robcbwilson 08-Jan-21 01:19 PM

Done for Elsweyr

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 08-Jan-21 01:27 PM

I'm here.

2

Hannes821 08-Jan-21 02:53 PM

It would be good to have this on arcane university too, imo.

Bellatrix 08-Jan-21 06:32 PM

Endoc cleaned up the charter apparently? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_3cuOozpO26KeThUz1PIp66BinPcw9NHaqxsBbcal98/edit?usp=sharing

Beyond Skyrim Charter

Beyond Skyrim Charter The '''Beyond Skyrim Charter''' is the constitution of this community. These basic agreements between the teams assure cooperation and mediation and balance of interests. TOC == Condensed Version == The Constitution codifies all of the unw...

I haven’t read it but if it’s just removing DC references I don’t see why we wouldn’t update it.

1shoedpunk 08-Jan-21 10:25 PM

When will we vote on the revisions as they are?

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 03:17 AM

They apparently aren’t revisions just comments?

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 03:53 AM

I think given the discussions yesterday in #department_directors it would be helpful if we knew exactly what was changed

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 04:39 AM

The link is there. I need to go through it line by line. And yeah I’m not going to ever be voting for anything that takes the equal power of small projects away.

So if it’s just editing to remove DC references that’s fine. If I don’t get to veto other projects trying to take control of Roscrea that’s not going to happen.

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 05:00 AM

I agree 100% Claire: without the power of veto and the unanimous vote, Elsweyr would have been ripped apart last year by the members of "the server" so I will absolutely not be voting for anything that removes or dilutes either of them or removes equal power given to smaller projects. Smaller projects absolutely need protection from the larger projects. Unless the changes are strictly cosmetic I will be voting no without question (edited)

Hannes821 09-Jan-21 05:19 AM

The comments he made where 90% about cutting dark creations

And the rest was a comment on appeal methods.

Maybe only considering the dark creations part?

I saw nothing on vetos in his comments last night there

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 05:22 AM

There were discussions about the power of individual projects so I’m making my feelings clear before we even go down that road. Frankly I find it insulting there there a default tendency for larger projects to assume they’re better.

Not all and not everyone on large projects but it’s there constantly in the background.

Hannes821 09-Jan-21 05:24 AM

Yeah the discussion came up by other people's input

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 05:24 AM

Again, I agree with Claire 100%

Hannes821 09-Jan-21 05:24 AM

But wasn't part of his original suggestion

And he has a point there, DC doesn't exist

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 05:25 AM

As a lead of a "smaller" project we have often been made to feel inferior or at the very least "less important"

Hannes821 09-Jan-21 05:28 AM

Yes

But that was not his intention nor his suggestion for change

Rather the opposite

I can only suggest to fly over the comments. The text itself is unchanged

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_3cuOozpO26KeThUz1PIp66BinPcw9NHaqxsBbcal98/edit?usp=sharing

Beyond Skyrim Charter

Beyond Skyrim Charter The '''Beyond Skyrim Charter''' is the constitution of this community. These basic agreements between the teams assure cooperation and mediation and balance of interests. TOC == Condensed Version == The Constitution codifies all of the unw...

And if you click In the text, the comments appear as yellow highlighted text, clicking again shows the comment, for mobile

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 05:35 AM

That is not strictly accurate. While a lot of them are removals of mentions of Dark Creations in a couple of places an entire paragraph or sentence has been removed. It will need rewording rather than deleting

Hannes821 09-Jan-21 05:39 AM

Yes, or we exclusively look at the easy cases of DC

We don't need to reinvent the wheel. For me, this is cosmetics

What we can agree on to look more out of time

Less*

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 06:14 AM

This is an example of this:

It is clearly important that we cover discussions around politics so removing that entire paragraph is not appropriate

Hannes821 09-Jan-21 06:17 AM

But didn't this paragraph previously prohibited exactly that

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 06:17 AM

Yes, that is my point Hannes

If it is removed then it will no longer be prohibited

Under the Charter

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 06:18 AM

It just needs editing. We have the discord opt in channel.

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 06:18 AM

Exactly!

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 06:18 AM

So that’s the current equivalent.

1

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 06:18 AM

Editing no removing

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 07:18 AM

OK - I'll try and put each paragraph side by side and highlight the changes. Not really what I want to be spending my afternoon doing but it looks like it needs doing.

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 07:21 AM

Thanks Claire

Larrian (Morrowind) 09-Jan-21 08:03 AM

None of the discussions had anything to do with the power of individual projects

In fact I was suggesting each project gets a single vote, as was enodoc

If the unanimous vote wants to be kept I wouldn't die on that hill

Despite previous misgivings by a younger and more immature me on the nature of BS, I think each project deserves equal say no matter its size, and even if I didn't, nobody would agree to something that changed that anyway

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 08:10 AM

That's great to hear. However I'm guarding against future versions of your younger self.

Just because leads won't try it now it doesn't mean different leads won't in the future.

Larrian (Morrowind) 09-Jan-21 08:10 AM

In terms of preserving the unanimous vote?

I can respect that

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 08:10 AM

Sorry - try it isn't the right phrasing. Believe that larger projects should be more powerful

Larrian (Morrowind) 09-Jan-21 08:10 AM

I wouldn't mind keeping it if each project had a single vote

Yeah that makes sense dw

If each project gets a single vote we don't have to worry about anything being blocked by one person even if the rest of their project disagrees

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 08:11 AM

I'm not really sure where the 3 leads thing came from. We've only ever really had one on ros and cry. I know I technically do both but on here I only ever vote for Roscrea

Larrian (Morrowind) 09-Jan-21 08:11 AM

It also discourages packing of council seats

Yeah I'm not sure either

Projects should be able to decide on their votes unanimously anyway

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 08:14 AM

Errk. On a complete change of topic, thingy just DMed Cyrdodiil leads chat and wants to raise something with the council. How do we do this? I can't remember where we asked with the bard complaint, but Rob and I got told to make a separate server and invite us all.

But I don't know if that's the offical way to do it or how we did it because it was a lead being investigated?

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 08:15 AM

I am not sure if there is an "official" way

Larrian (Morrowind) 09-Jan-21 08:15 AM

I don't think there is

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 08:15 AM

A new server is cleaner

Larrian (Morrowind) 09-Jan-21 08:15 AM

Yes I'd agree

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 08:15 AM

To avoid cluttering this channel

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 08:16 AM

Yeah

Should I tell Thingy?

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 08:17 AM

That we need a server?

If it is what I think it is, I can do it

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 08:20 AM

Errm I don’t know what it is just that it’s serious. So yes a server seems like a good idea.

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 08:20 AM

OK, I will spin one up and add an invite here

https://discord.gg/xvmpStB9t5

Should I also invite Thingy?

Larrian (Morrowind) 09-Jan-21 08:23 AM

I'd say yes

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 08:24 AM

When we did it we were on it then I'm not sure what happened as I left after we'd outlined the complaint.

But yes definitely initially

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 08:26 AM

We had a separate channel for the discussion based on the evidence and for a decision to be made

Which I created

Once I know what this is about I can restrict that

I went on the "Bard" server and that is basically what it had

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 09:51 AM

So how does it work with the server? I guess we need everyone to join then Rob hands the lead role over to someone so we can make a private channel to discuss? I'm assuming if Rob is brining the complaint (although yo don't seem directly involved?) then it's like the Bard situation and he can't investigate it?

@everyone

also I guess if there are any inactive province leads, now would be the time for teams to sort it out. There's not point being a council member if your lead isn't around to actually deal with this stuff.

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 10:12 AM

I am not directly involved, so I will leave it up to the rest of the Council to decide if I am to be excluded from the investigation

My involvement in this was purely administrative

Hannes821 09-Jan-21 10:54 AM

same but it was said that we were introduced to the topic at 30th of september

i must have missed that

as council

right my bad, i found it! you did bring it up but it was only a side note between bigger topics

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 11:00 AM

Ah crap - I though I was talking in here. Feels like something that should be in alead chat on there.

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 11:02 AM

Hannes, given that you are friends with Deis I feel that you should sit this one out

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 11:11 AM

At the very least you need to stop saying stuff then deleting it.

Currently I’m not confident you’re going to be impartial given you opened with ‘are you really doing this’ then deleted it and I think you’ve deleted one more comment already.

At the very least take it seriously and don’t prejudge.

And do give serious consideration to if you think you can be impartial.

I really wanted to take part in the bard investigation but with hindsight it was completely appropriate that I wasn’t allowed to because there was no way I could be impartial.

Hannes821 09-Jan-21 11:30 AM

yeah

@Robcbwilson do you think its okay if i leave

and honestly after reading this, i feel she should have kicked tobi at the beginning

she is very bad in judgement

how could that happen...

i really dont object if you find that she is unfitting

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 11:31 AM

I think personally it would be better if you did

Hannes821 09-Jan-21 11:31 AM

if thats really all as he said

great, this takes a lot of weight from my shoulders.

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 11:32 AM

I think it's a complex situation. It makes sense if you sit it out and you're more matur than I was with bard

But (I haven't read it yet) if what Thingy posted with Tobi is similar to what went on with Desi, he was definitely being groomed by Tobi

Hannes821 09-Jan-21 11:33 AM

yeah sorry i was too fast

she did a lot of bad decisions, but this suicide threat was a weapon and i believe tobi used it against everyone

gosh. its not an easy situation, and i wouldnt know how long it would have taken me at thingies or deisabris position

i still feel a bit of pity for them.

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 11:34 AM

This doesn't excuse any of what went on but it might explain it. If you've been brainwashed into being half convened it's not as bad as it really is your judgement is going to be shot. However none of the tell people and get it sorted was followed so it's a moot point but that might be why it happened.

Hannes821 09-Jan-21 11:35 AM

i am so happy when this is over.

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 11:35 AM

yeah

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 11:35 AM

This is never easy

Hannes821 09-Jan-21 11:35 AM

now, lets focus on polishing the new build

1

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 11:35 AM

We all will be

1

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 11:36 AM

So my plan was mod roscrea today but I'm now splitting it between trying to format all the charter edits and read a load of stuff that frankly I don't want to read

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 11:36 AM

Yes, I had the same plan. Today was a Roscrea day

Hannes821 09-Jan-21 02:34 PM

hope we can soon all be 150% BS@work again

and enjoy

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 03:14 PM

Does this bring any extra benefit vs Endocs document in terms of being able to see changes? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LS8FvsDz4Q8bs37cgRv4xIIYaoOK86W7wHcFiPqBdJg/edit

Charter amendment side by side comparison

In the comparison all text with a strikethrough will be removed in the final version. Additions or rewording are highlighted in bold. Condensed Version 1O The Constitution codifies all of the unwritten conventions that in the past have dictated how Beyond Skyrim is run. It should still be run in ...

Only done the condensed version so far but it if doesn't add anything then I'll stop

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 03:16 PM

I think it does, I also think that seven needs some discussion / thought as to what if anything we want to do with it

Bellatrix 09-Jan-21 03:17 PM

Yeah - I'm not sure if you have comments on but I did comment on each paragraph and they're all removing references to DC or typos apart from this one which I did flag as I think we need to discuss it.

Robcbwilson 09-Jan-21 03:18 PM

I didn't comment on it as I just updated the wording but we should really think about whether we want what it proposes

I think petitions from Devs has some merit

1shoedpunk 09-Jan-21 06:05 PM

"Whereas historically, many decisions were taken by groups of Team Leads on Skype,via PM thread or DC channel, these discussions can be carried out in the open, and formal decision-making votes be taken by the Council. A dedicated public Discord category on the Beyond Skyrim: Development Server within which a channel will be created channel will be created for regular members to vote in polls present petitions, discuss issues, or critique the team leads' discussions in the decision-making channel."

This isn't even close to the original meaning and opens up the leads to a lot of criticism

Should instead designate the project lead chat as the new private council chat

When we make a judgment we include the reasoning and evidence if it can be released anyway

We don't need a free for all

1shoedpunk 09-Jan-21 06:32 PM

I made comments on some of the most substantially different language.

This is a joke, he's trying to get rid of the unanimous vote and prevent the council from having a say about approving new projects

Meglos (Morrowind) 09-Jan-21 06:44 PM

Wait, what's happening?

Someone's trying to sneakily rewrite the charter?

1shoedpunk 09-Jan-21 06:47 PM

In Enodoc's Charter revision document, instead of just making the changes to remove references to Dark Creations, it instead substantially alters multiple sections of the document

He literally marked the entire section that defines how the council accepts new projects as subject to deletion or change

I made comments in response to it. I'm fine stripping out the DC references and updating them to the appropriate channels, but that's it

Meglos (Morrowind) 09-Jan-21 07:14 PM

Yeah, wow

Seems like a major overstep

Bellatrix 10-Jan-21 03:03 AM

Errrm in the complaint chat, thingy really shouldn’t be in the dosuccioj channel.

Bellatrix 10-Jan-21 03:23 AM

Or at least can we make a channel where we discuss what we’re going to do. It’s not really appropriate giving the people bringing the complaint a role in the discussion about what happens. Especially as Deis has a right to defend herself.

I’d personally like a full ban but not going to start discussing it till we have a council only channel cos I think there’s some tangential stuff around the moderators on BS that we need to discuss too.

Specifically this bit "especially because she’d seen a lot of moderators in the community outpost saying that pedophiles deserve to be killed"

We can’t have an atmosphere where there’s any excuse for people not to come forward with problems.

Hannes821 10-Jan-21 03:38 AM

I agree, 1shoed

Robcbwilson 10-Jan-21 03:38 AM

I agree. I will change the permissions on that channel Claire

1shoedpunk

We don't need a free for all

Hannes821 10-Jan-21 03:38 AM

Absolutely

Robcbwilson 10-Jan-21 03:38 AM

I assume that I have to hand over control of the server to someone else and be locked out myself at this point?

1shoedpunk

He literally marked the entire section that defines how the council accepts new projects as subject to deletion or change

Hannes821 10-Jan-21 03:39 AM

I am sorry, I didn't notice that when I fly over

1shoedpunk

I made comments in response to it. I'm fine stripping out the DC references and updating them to the appropriate channels, but that's it

Hannes821 10-Jan-21 03:40 AM

Absolutely

If you are out and I am out, do we have still a enough active leads on the investigation though?

At Rob

Robcbwilson 10-Jan-21 03:44 AM

I would prefer to be involved, but if people feel I should be excluded from the investigation then of course I accept that (edited)

Bellatrix 10-Jan-21 03:48 AM

It’s up to everyone but if all you did was provide technical help with what to do I don’t see why the document can’t be updated to reflect that and you stay part of it.

It’s not like the Bard investigation when we were both complaining about things he’d done directly to us.

Robcbwilson 10-Jan-21 03:50 AM

Yes, exactly. I provided technical help and I believe screenshots from the group chat that was setup to discuss the Tobi case among the Alinor leads

Robcbwilson 10-Jan-21 04:38 AM

The Discussion channel has been restricted

1shoedpunk 10-Jan-21 04:55 PM

@here if you have not already joined the channel for the investigation, please do so within the next 12 hours. That covers anyone with a time zone discrepancy.

You must be a lead and on the council. If you're here you probably are, but if you are on a project that has more leads than council seats just the members with seats should join.

This takes priority over any suggested changes to the Charter

Hannes821 10-Jan-21 04:57 PM

i still wonder if i should just wait or sit there. i mean i have nothing to argue for or against. things are the way they are. what do you think, 1shoed?

yeah, the charter is not urgent

1shoedpunk 10-Jan-21 05:00 PM

Any Council members can abstain from the vote. By precedent members involved with the complaints directly are asked to sit out but it's really your choice. If you are planning on just voting after evidence is presented and the case is discussed then you don't need to do anything else at this point other than join the server. If you're not sure what to do and want to help I'd say message any of the Council members you know who haven't already joined and get them to.

Hannes821 10-Jan-21 05:06 PM

i think that i can be distanced enough from the people that it is about to vote, personally. The vote is a clear thing about the charter and the accusations, there is not much space for interpretation. thats just how it is. i should do my duty, i feel.

i contacted woni a lot the last 6 months, sadly, he is inactive.

no response.

grand ecole, he entered the best university of france for engineering

between us, i am sad to see anathem and tascani inactive, and i wanted to promote Jani to director/team lead, but he wasnt sure about it, preferred to be dep lead for the moment

i am still working on having the best possible management capacity in my team

happy to have 3 new dep leads now since october.

so the dep lead team is full, and maybe i can promote someone in a few months, hopefully

Robcbwilson 10-Jan-21 05:47 PM

@Hannes821 if you feel that you can remain impartial and be distanced enough then I have no issue personally with you returning to the Complaint Server

Hannes821 10-Jan-21 06:02 PM

thank you for your trust. I am not biased. i will join tomorrow.

2

Robcbwilson 10-Jan-21 06:03 PM

Once you rejoin, I will have to give you a role so that you can see all the channels

1

Hannes821 10-Jan-21 06:06 PM

gn

Firenight 11-Jan-21 12:59 AM

sorry things have been a bit all over lately with the semester starting up but im there now

1

Sage of Ice 18-Jan-21 06:39 PM

Popping in to say that I'm sorry I didn't see this sooner, I've been either in the hospital or bedridden for the last two weeks and I have no idea what's been going on during that time

Rubaedo 18-Jan-21 08:22 PM

Everything okay sage?

Sage of Ice 19-Jan-21 01:04 AM

Out of the immediate urgent phase, but it's going to be a thing for a while unfortunately

Rubaedo 19-Jan-21 01:31 AM

Well as silly as it sounds, just know that if you need anything just let us know, alright?

Robcbwilson 19-Jan-21 04:05 AM

Hope you get better soon

Bellatrix 19-Jan-21 05:10 AM

Ugh. That sounds rough. Hope you’re feeling better!

Hannes821 19-Jan-21 06:09 AM

Same, Wish you good recovery

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 03:06 PM

Errrm we have a problem. Someone is leaking posts from this discord onto 4chan.

Anyone clever enough to work out who it is?

@everyone

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 03:09 PM

Oh no!

What is being leaked?

Do we know which channel it is from?

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 03:11 PM

Related to the last round of 4Chan leaks from the MW server?

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 03:15 PM

Think it’s current and from this server in general chat.

Worth catching up on cos their posts look bannable.

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 03:16 PM

Are you able to give us the 4Chan link?

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 03:16 PM

https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542164075

/v/ - I'm on Beyond Skyrim. AMA - Video Games - 4chan

I'm on Beyond Skyrim. AMA - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

Was linked in #general

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 03:17 PM

We could definitely ban them for that. Removal from the dev server at a minimum.

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 03:18 PM

That is a massive conversation

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 03:22 PM

If this happens, bans must start being handed out when the person is identified.

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 03:26 PM

I’m on my phone. Anyone got a link to the charter? Good time to repost it in general chat.

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 03:27 PM

https://wiki.beyondskyrim.org/wiki/Beyond_Skyrim_Charter

Beyond Skyrim Charter

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 03:27 PM

Probably also a good time to revisit the "Don't trash other peoples' mods" rule for people who want to discuss Fallout: Frontiers.

Sol 28-Jan-21 03:28 PM

Great. Someone else deciding 4chan is a great place to leak shit

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 03:29 PM

The fuck is wrong with people

‍♀️

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 03:30 PM

This is likely the most bannable post. Completely unacceptable tone. I'm not familiar enough with 4chan though to filter it down to just posts by the actual OP. IDs appear to be unique per-post. So it could even be just random people saying they're on the project.

Meglos (Morrowind) 28-Jan-21 03:30 PM

Not on MW either

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 03:31 PM

Ugh, I don't wanna scroll through the thread again, but I thought I saw a different post saying they were on both BM and MW. But it's also possible that was a different person.

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 03:33 PM

Errrm Novak is being a bit weird about it in directors chat

Meglos (Morrowind) 28-Jan-21 03:34 PM

They seem to be familiar with IB

Ok, they also posted a screenshot to prove they were a dev, from the Heartlands worldspace https://i.4cdn.org/v/1611847170382.jpg

So likely someone on Cyr/Elsweyr

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 03:39 PM

Yup

Those are Elsweyr rocks

If they were on Elsweyr I would expect them to take the screenshot facing the other way

Unless they are being "clever"

Actually, that is a very good point @ub3rman123

About the /v/

That makes it an LD

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 03:48 PM

No, it's just the in-game fire spell cast on the ground.

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 03:48 PM

Oh is it?

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 03:48 PM

Yeah, decals look different.

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 03:49 PM

Either way, it has to be someone from either Cyr / Els

Who has GIT access

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 03:49 PM

just saw the 4chan thing

talking crap about atmora

anyways

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 03:49 PM

Yes

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 03:50 PM

shall we make a reddit post and say "this is not true" or rather say nothing?

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 03:50 PM

No, keep quiet. We'll just Streisand effect it if we do anything.

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 03:50 PM

they cant really be core of atmora for what they say is not true

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 03:50 PM

4chan's gonna 4chan.

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 03:50 PM

alright understood

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 03:51 PM

I don't care about what 4chan thinks of us, but I don't want a member who talks about other members that way.

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 03:52 PM

100%

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 03:53 PM

^

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 03:54 PM

yes, i follow that statement

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 03:54 PM

Completely unrelated (well mostly) but I am going to do an audit of who is on here as an Elsweyr Dev and make sure they are on the teams still

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 03:54 PM

So in terms of hard evidence, they're viewing 4chan a European time zone so they're likely in Europe or the UK. They have access to Heartlands and they're not in either Morrowind or Black Marsh as they referred to those provinces as "they"

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 03:54 PM

And remove anyone who isn't

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 03:55 PM

That narrows it down to probably about 30 or more people. Doh!

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 03:55 PM

and unlikely atmora.

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 03:55 PM

29, it isn't me

Meglos (Morrowind) 28-Jan-21 03:56 PM

Ooh looks more and more like a Cyr dev

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 03:57 PM

They're also not a Roscrea dev

Meglos (Morrowind) 28-Jan-21 03:57 PM

Could be someone on both Cyr and IB? Since they seem so confident in those projects above all else

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 03:58 PM

It is possible they're a Cyrodiil dev if they have access to our Google Drive

In fact that seems more than likely

Still reading through though

I'll post hard evidence as I find it here

They seem to have access to Roscrea though

Or have a good idea of where they're at, but that doesn't prove anything

Calls people lads, that's a relatively uncommon phrasing here

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:02 PM

Brit

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:02 PM

Also they have a lot of knowledge of Atmora and hasn't directly worked with Skyblivion but has spoken to them

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:02 PM

Definitely.

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:02 PM

Definitely a Brit

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:02 PM

And probably northern. Lads is really common in the UK

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:02 PM

I'm not seeing other British phrasing or spelling though

I've also seen lads used a lot in chauvinist circles

But the time zone does fit

Also the phrasing "you must remember"

That's an uncommon way of phrasing that

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:03 PM

Yes

We could search servers for people who use such phrases

Given how uncommon that is

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:04 PM

I just checked for lads and around half a dozen members use it consistently

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:05 PM

Two on Elsweyr (edited)

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:07 PM

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:07 PM

One of which would not be able to take that screenshot or set up GIT

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:07 PM

Wait they posted this image

Two things - what server was hug.hams message posted on and where was this image posted?

I feel like if we can narrow down which servers they're on, we already know which provinces they're not in

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:08 PM

Which was hug's message?

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 04:08 PM

Hugh's, I think. In #general

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:08 PM

On this server?

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:09 PM

yep

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:09 PM

Oh Hugh

Sorry

Ok, so they have to be on this server and either Cyrodiil or Elsweyr

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:11 PM

I'm concerned about TheMightyNovac's response to this.

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:11 PM

yeah

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:11 PM

He's basically dismissing this as no big deal when it clearly is and he doesn't have any problem with the slurs being used it seems.

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:11 PM

Yes, that is really not good

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:14 PM

Wait is TheMightyNovac's name on Discord Apuru-kun?

I right clicked on their name to look at their profile (edited)

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:14 PM

I did wonder if it might be him TBH

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:14 PM

No

Sorry, to be clear

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:14 PM

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:15 PM

I was just curious

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:15 PM

Yes

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:15 PM

Yep

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 04:15 PM

I think he just hadn't read all of the more vitriolic posts from the 4chan thread.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:15 PM

Googling that name gives some, uh, interesting artwork

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:15 PM

Hope so

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:15 PM

I don't know if it's like an anime reference so someone else just has the same name

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:15 PM

Cos that’s pretty edgy stuff for a directo to be chill with.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:18 PM

Yeah,

I don't think it's the same person as the porn artist but I don't know. The artist with the same name is 21 and male from the online profiles I found.

More evidence that it's someone from Cyrodiil - they're referring to something I said about the Ayleid ruins in VR

I've talked about it in other servers too, though

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:20 PM

Yes, none in Elsweyr (yet)

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:20 PM

They are not in our leadership team for sure - they have a 2025 release date suggested

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:22 PM

That could just be from this server though. I’ve been spamming @getroscreadone2021 almost constantly since the start of the year and we’ve discussed how it would be cool to get it to beta and atmora out after that.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:22 PM

Only a handful of people on our server have ever mentioned 2025 as a potential release date

Though bori says they've been telling people on the Community Server that

But the 4chan poster seems to be speculating, bori sounded like they were saying it with authority

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 04:23 PM

If you really wanna narrow it down, does comparing to the list of members online today help?

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:23 PM

I have Elsweyr's

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:23 PM

Yeah it should.

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:23 PM

The full list of everyone on this server

Firenight 28-Jan-21 04:24 PM

they're a writer

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:25 PM

With GIT access and in the UK (edited)

That is a small group

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:26 PM

Firenight 28-Jan-21 04:29 PM

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 04:30 PM

wow. incredible.

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:30 PM

That’s absolutely disgusting.

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 04:30 PM

how fast you can find the person

maybe you can reason with said person (or do the appropriate, whatever that is=

Firenight 28-Jan-21 04:31 PM

full text

confirmed to use enbs

screenshot was 100% theirs

they work on multiple provinces

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:35 PM

Explicitly not in either Morrowind or Black Marsh here

"They're honestly not far enough along to have made any blunders. Their core is mostly ideas guys, writers, and 'geck generalists' helped ahead by the modelers. Most of which go around making models for near every province already. not actually a red flag, cyrodiil was like this early on too"

Quoted since part of the sentence was in a spoiler tag

They have been around since the early days of Cyrodiil or have knowledge about the early days of Cyrodiil

Firenight 28-Jan-21 04:37 PM

they know their history then

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 04:37 PM

What does "pozzed" mean?

Also lmao "the tranny"

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:37 PM

Ugggh. It’s even worse if it’s an old timer.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:39 PM

Is there a way to copy the list of all the members who have access to a server on discord?

At least they're not leadership, none of us would have floated 2025 as a Cyrodiil release date

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:39 PM

Not easily

You can open the member list and copy it

But not all at once

There is a limit to how many you can copy

I did Elsweyr (50 people) in three chunks

Firenight 28-Jan-21 04:40 PM

what team does this

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:41 PM

That could be Cyrodiil

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 04:41 PM

I don't think you can narrow it down, IB has meetings and writers do drafts. Pretty basic things, those.

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 04:41 PM

Elsweyr have regular team meetings

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:41 PM

Especially for writing.

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 04:42 PM

clearly not IB because they described the meetings as "regular"

Firenight 28-Jan-21 04:42 PM

not 100% if this is them but

Hannes821

maybe you can reason with said person (or do the appropriate, whatever that is=

Meglos (Morrowind) 28-Jan-21 04:42 PM

I don't think there's much reasoning to be done with this kind of person lmao

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 04:42 PM

No, different user @Firenight

Firenight 28-Jan-21 04:42 PM

ah gotcha

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 04:42 PM

Ehh maybe not? I dunno.

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:42 PM

Can we bring the white supremacist server in director chat?

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:42 PM

I'm fairly sure that it isn't TheMightyNovac for what it's worth, but I am getting the impression that they're sympathetic to them.

Firenight 28-Jan-21 04:42 PM

its hard to tell tbh

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 04:43 PM

Without meaning to say "I told you so," this is why I wanted to go aggressive on making it clear people like this aren't welcome tbh.

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 04:43 PM

No, let's keep as much of this as possible in lead chat only.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:43 PM

Yes

Sorry about that then

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 04:43 PM

Yeah keep this contained

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:43 PM

With the Discord server

I just meant to hint that there's something more out there beyond this thread.

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:43 PM

OK. But they’re all busy going ‘there’s no conspiracy’ and there probably isn’t but some weird stuff has been happening lately.

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 04:43 PM

yes. we cant make a big rumour of this, but rather respond according to our standards. we already proclaimed our charta clearly and our interpretation of it.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:45 PM

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 04:45 PM

Let's make sure we have a strong idea of who it is before we go spreading anything around. Also we should try and think of a hard response once we do know who this is. Could we make some edit to the charter regarding spreading internal information/use of slurs or something?

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:45 PM

Is this Morrowind scene real?

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 04:45 PM

I have literally no idea what theyre talking about @1shoedpunk

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 04:45 PM

@Rubaedo The charter absolutely should be covering those already.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:45 PM

Okay

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 04:45 PM

@1shoedpunk I think they were talking about the Fallout mod ther.

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:45 PM

I’m fairly sure the charter does cover it. They’re clearly identifying as a BS member.

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 04:46 PM

Oh nevermind, just saw the reply part..

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 04:47 PM

We have a bathhouse that you help build in dfel but there are no scenes in it once it's constructed, and we do have plans for a trans character but they're completely unwritten atm and just floating around in the tentative "once we shift focus to the mainland" space.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:48 PM

Seems to be referring to Nirn Uncharted here

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 04:51 PM

Is it OP who said that, or someone else?

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:52 PM

Not clear

"That's exactly how it works though. Cyrodiil has a long as fuck doc telling everyone what needs to be adjusted or removed for every new piece of content, and shutting down retarded stuff before it happens. There are separate teams per province all under the same banner. Morrowind is going to be shit, but they aren't inside the Cyrodiil or Illiac Bay teams. Which are the only ones that are ever going to come out anyway."

I know we have a screen of that but they definitely believe both Cyrodiil and Iliac Bay are going to come out but misspelled Iliac Bay

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 04:53 PM

Could just be a typo

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 04:53 PM

I'm most insulted by the misspelling.

how dare they

Firenight 28-Jan-21 04:53 PM

i cant find anything else

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 04:53 PM

Have they repeated made that typo actually? Because that could be telling

Hmm

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:53 PM

Even I've made that typo

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 04:54 PM

It is in canon in a few spots..

Anyways, don't take that as hard evidence of anything.

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 04:55 PM

Yeah Im reaching here

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:56 PM

Seems like a fan of the dev diaries

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 04:57 PM

Cyrodiil doesn’t have ‘a long duck’ document though does it?

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:58 PM

"ya trips dont lie but I am not working on morrowind or black marsh. Its up to some other based anons who are working on these projects. If you are watching MW/BM anons. Save your provinces. Otherwise: https://youtu.be/04xOsNW7zTA [Embed] and join us"

Lekbarnet

The Lord Of The Rings - Flee For Your Lives!

Depends on what piece of writing we're talking about

We have a lot of documents

Firenight 28-Jan-21 04:58 PM

i guess we can narrow it down as they are a writer, they have access to heartlands, they use an enb, they have a lot of knowledge on Cyrodiil and IB, possibly an editor (?), the team their on has multiple writing leads, know about the history of cyrodiil, pushed for alternate start mods, and believe in a 2025 date

oh and are potentially from the uk

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 04:59 PM

Also I don't think this has been brought up but in this post they say that they haven't been in the dev server for a while

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:00 PM

yeah

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 05:03 PM

God these people are SOOOOO mad that we're acknowledging the existence of queer people

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 05:03 PM

It's 4chan, they're always spun into an incandescent rage like that.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:04 PM

Use of frens, definitely a fascist

At least in that context

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:06 PM

There’s so much I don’t know. And I’m actually very happy about that.

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 05:06 PM

@Bellatrix do you want context for why "fren" is a fascist dogwhistle or no?

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:08 PM

Or no. I’m too sad with humanity already today. Unless you think I need it to be a good and effective lead:)

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 05:09 PM

Yeah just keep an eye out for the term "fren" and "bop"

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 05:09 PM

God, that weird baby talk phase was the weirdest thing. Was glad when it got banned from Reddit.

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 05:10 PM

Good god yeah

something like 70% of their dogwhistles are just "I blhate blblack blpeople" and they expect everyone to fall for it

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:11 PM

I thought people just bopped dogs noses and did the rediculos dog talk thing.

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 05:11 PM

Bop =/= boop!

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:12 PM

oh also i think its safe to say they're definitely on cyrodiil

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 05:12 PM

Different circles

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:12 PM

Phew!

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:12 PM

they're fully aware on how the writing system works

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 05:12 PM

God, if the supremacists took away 'boop' I would never forgive them.

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:12 PM

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:12 PM

For a sec I was wait what, half my Facebook timeline is nazi now:)

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 05:12 PM

Maybe "never forgive" isn't the right term.

Time for a ctrl-f on who uses "alot".

Ban them for bad grammar.

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:12 PM

so yeah they're cyordiil writing

bad snip

but yeah they're definitely on cyrodiil

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:13 PM

Are we the only team that does this?

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:13 PM

we're the only one who has it so split up like we do

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 05:13 PM

Elsweyr only is working on Riverhold in writing terms

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 05:14 PM

I think most teams have focuses like that but I think CYR is the only team that makes it that explicit.

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:14 PM

not to mention their into with "for cyrodiil its more complicated"

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 05:15 PM

OK, so that is not that many people then

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:16 PM

How sure are we they’re also on atmora?

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:16 PM

they used "they" when refering to atmora

but we when refering to cyrodiil

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:17 PM

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:17 PM

not 100% confirmed but just a note

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:18 PM

Which 3d modeler does it sound like they're talking about?

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:19 PM

not a huge note but they've never added in anything LGBTQ in their writing

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:20 PM

We should also freeze or monitor applications that have come in since this thread was posted

They posted our recruitment link so we're going to see people coming in from this thread

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 05:20 PM

Yes, good point

Also, we should look at who has access to this server who are not still Devs

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:21 PM

Arcaneimpact DMed me earleir asking us to stop adding the new testers

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 05:21 PM

I have removed 6 ex-Elsweyr people

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:21 PM

Because that’s a fairly easy route in.

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 05:21 PM

And I know Hannes has removed some ex-Atmora folks

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:21 PM

But forgot to pass it on.

Robcbwilson 28-Jan-21 05:21 PM

That is a good shout

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:22 PM

It’s a bit tricky cos they are technically team members.

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 05:22 PM

heyhey! i am just about to head to bed

shall i remove the ex atmorans from community server?

they arent in dev server.

they never really engaged so much, since they are inactive

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 05:23 PM

What, removing their BS member tags?

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 05:23 PM

i mean their team role

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 05:23 PM

Yeah, good idea to keep that stuff current.

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 05:23 PM

ok

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:28 PM

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 05:29 PM

God I really wish he'd stop with the slurs

1

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 05:29 PM

i dont know what is in this kids mind. like making a fuzz out of nothing just to feel important

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:30 PM

Who is Coronan The Barbarian?

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:30 PM

IB LD lead

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 05:30 PM

he joined recently atmora to help LD they said

*he said

not much activity at all but a well known person, at least from world affairs

channel

good night everyone, best of success

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:32 PM

He came up when I searched this server for "bad eggs" and "dogshit" and one of the other terms I'm trying to recall

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 05:32 PM

oh i remember didnt they say he was from new york and havent herd from him in a while and worried with corona

*heard

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:33 PM

Okay, then probably not them

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 05:33 PM

I know Coronan has said some... unfortunate things regarding his political stance in the past, but I hardly think he's on this level.

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 05:33 PM

Also, definitely not his typing style.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:33 PM

Yeah I saw some of that in worldaffairs

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 05:33 PM

Wouldn't be caught dead saying "ppl".

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:33 PM

I thought the typing style was key too but some of the posts have perfect punctuation and some are barely legible

Hannes821 28-Jan-21 05:34 PM

so either one is drinking beers or its many?

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 05:34 PM

Does 4chan have a way to tell if two posts are by the same person? Because it could actually just be two people.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:34 PM

No

At least I don't think so

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 05:34 PM

Yeah I think most of the big name contributors to BS are probably not this guy. You kinda have to know how to work with people you don't like if youre gonna make it anywhere.

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 05:34 PM

For all I know, the real slim shady stopped posting after their first 'evidence' shot.

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:35 PM

If they go to the effort of hiding it from us on BS then I doubt we’ll ever know who it is.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:35 PM

"If you want me to prove I am real then I will go to a province in game and send a picture of my character there with "/V/" written on the floor from a fire spell. Is that proof enough?"

So that's what that image is from

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:36 PM

We need to send someone in to 4chan and ask subtle yet leading questions:)

Maybe roast as he seems to be the living incarnation of Sherlock Holmes (I’m not serious BTW:)

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:37 PM

I have a potentially solid clue

This is the metadata of the Elsweyr screenshot they sent

That aspect ratio is very rare

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:38 PM

How do we find aspect ratios?

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 05:38 PM

nervous glance at my 1050p Goodwill monitor

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:39 PM

We download screenshots from suspects and check the metadata

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:39 PM

Oh ub3r. Do we need to get the ban hammer out...?

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 05:39 PM

It's my Discord monitor too! Ban me now.

Anyways, use "from:user" and "has:image" for searching posts.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:42 PM

Yeah

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:42 PM

they're on the outpost

and aren't in a position on power there

also apparently 4chan hates the outpost

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 05:43 PM

At what point do we have enough matching data points to ban someone? I wouldn't be comfortable banning based only on monitor resolution and that they're a writer on a specific project.

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:44 PM

I don’t know. I don’t know if we’ll ever know for sure.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:46 PM

They also seem to have the latest lod

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:47 PM

i think the big thing is seeing if any writers on cyrodiil use an enb

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:47 PM

Says lorebeard

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:47 PM

and potentially their writing history

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 05:48 PM

Yeah this is all deductive reasoning. No matter how close we get, this is always going to be a guess. I'm less concerned with swinging down the ban hammer for something like this and more concerned that its made clear that people with this attitude arent welcome.

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:48 PM

Can we. Heck who’s downloaded lod from gdrive? Does it record that info?

@Rubaedo that’s the really gross thing. They know we don’t allow people to behave like that on BS. The ‘they won’t know it’s me posts’ are the ones making me most mad.

It’s someone on cyrodiil who I probably like and get on with because they’re smart enough to hide what the way think because they know they can’t behave like that on cyrodiil.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:53 PM

It is definitely someone newer - they weren't on the project when we were in LE

Checking the git members now

Tobi is banned right?

Or am I getting them confused with someone else

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:55 PM

Tobi is banned

Firenight 28-Jan-21 05:56 PM

so they joined in the last year

and are still active

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 05:56 PM

They still had Git access

Removed Tobi

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 05:56 PM

Ah.

Yeah Tobi is banned from here

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 06:44 PM

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/636675069854351360/804494625686814770/unknown.png?width=624&height=701

Sorry, thought I was in the wrong chat at first

Klime 28-Jan-21 06:46 PM

notably Aikido is Smarty#2533 who was participating in the discussion in #general and is on IB (edited)

and not on MW or BM

Firenight 28-Jan-21 06:47 PM

hes also on cyro

Klime 28-Jan-21 06:47 PM

Indeed

A screenshot of his https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/410173614940356608/737912239549317172/unknown.png

Firenight 28-Jan-21 06:48 PM

looks a lot like the enb (edited)

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 06:48 PM

I’m deleting edits that specifically name him from the mod logs.

Just FYI.

People do stalk the mod logs and it doesn’t seem like something to get out till we’re sure.

Firenight 28-Jan-21 06:49 PM

wait isnt it only us who can see logs now

Klime 28-Jan-21 06:50 PM

it is

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 06:50 PM

Oh. If it is then my bad. I know thingy used to read them.

Klime 28-Jan-21 06:50 PM

Yeah they were changed during one of the previous messes

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 06:50 PM

Good all whoever did that!

Klime 28-Jan-21 06:50 PM

I think when the Complaint Server invite was posted

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 06:52 PM

They’ve mentioned alternate start in cyrodiil chat too.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 06:56 PM

Klime 28-Jan-21 06:57 PM

He appears to either be on Elsweyr or to previously have been on Elsweyr https://canary.discord.com/channels/330741581009387520/330741581009387520/728727265629962302

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 06:57 PM

I don't know if there is enough evidence

I mean, there is evidence

The screenshot ratio is probably the hardest evidence we have though

Firenight 28-Jan-21 06:58 PM

its worth investigating

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 06:58 PM

And other people have monitors with the same ratio

But it is rare

Says incase

Also a lot

Err, alot

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 07:03 PM

Oh god. I spell like a 4chan user

‍♀️

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 07:06 PM

Time zone lines up for them being in the UK/EU timezone area.

(I'm in EST)

Klime 28-Jan-21 07:17 PM

https://canary.discord.com/channels/330741581009387520/330741581009387520/804428195784949800

almost certainly Scottish considering this+what he's said here (search "Scottish" and "Scotland")

and this

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 07:26 PM

Holy yikes

1

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 07:27 PM

?

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 07:27 PM

Read that

He's proud of how capable men used to be, like his Nazi grandfather

And yes, we have an international project, some people of German descent might have similar stories

But he is practically glowing as he retells it

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 07:28 PM

Oh. I’m so stupid. I misread it.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 07:28 PM

No it's fine it took me like 3 reads

To be sure

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 07:28 PM

Didn’t clock the escaped from American camps.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 07:28 PM

Haha

Yeah jeeeez

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 07:29 PM

It would me more usual if his grandad had escaped and fled back to Britain cos he was British not to a random new country.

I guess that’s the bop box ticked too.

Are you absolutely sure he doesn’t mean his grandad was American. Because that’s how I read it.

On no. I’m too tired. He says he was German. It’s just terrible grammar.

It is 12:30 but I’m too cross to sleep.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 07:39 PM

Question is, is this sufficient for a ban? Or do we need to hold a formal investigation?

Or we could announce that we found the culprit and they're going to be banned at a specific time tomorrow to see if he shows

I dunno

I'm not 100% positive but the more we look into it the more we find.

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 07:39 PM

Ugh, it still feels like I want just one more data point to prove anything. I'm not sure.

But for now, we definitely need to keep it in just this room.

I don't want to try to play "gotcha" mind games to out him, would rather just get the evidence together, ban, and that's that.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 07:40 PM

The "its crazy what men were capable of back then" really stands out to me. It echoes a lot of what I've seen online from groups like the Proud Boys

Yeah but that last data point might just end up being the gotcha

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 07:41 PM

Would someone mind listing together all the points again? Everything does line up.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 07:43 PM

The 1680x1050 resolution, the similar grammatical structure, use of alot, on all the right servers and all the right teams, joined up after we switched to SE, is a writer who has git access

@Klime do you have the screenshot you derived the resolution from?

Just so we have that

Klime 28-Jan-21 07:44 PM

https://canary.discord.com/channels/330741581009387520/330744052330921994/804498105206308884

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 07:44 PM

Let's look a bit longer to make sure there aren't any other people who line up with a majority of those.

What specific server/channel was that posted on?

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 07:45 PM

Also uses ppl

1shoedpunk

@Klime do you have the screenshot you derived the resolution from?

Klime 28-Jan-21 07:45 PM

^^^ or search "from: Smarty#2533 has: image " on CYR

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 07:45 PM

Yeah I can verify, it's there

I don't remember the channel but having the link to the image is enough

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 07:46 PM

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/410173614940356608/740705994174234723/near_anvil.jpg

This one he posted is in the same resolution.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 07:46 PM

That is in the same area from the screenshot he posted

From the North looking South

Larrian (Morrowind) 28-Jan-21 07:46 PM

Honestly? This stuff is kinda concerning

(regarding the 4chan stuff)

seeing that anti Morrowind stuff does make me pretty uncomfortable

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 07:47 PM

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/373594464469647363/737986500624384030/unknown.png

If someone's really dedicated, he posted his mod list for comparison to the 4chan shot..

And also 1050p.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 07:48 PM

Wait where was that?

I missed that

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 07:48 PM

https://discord.com/channels/373594464469647361/373594464469647363/737986387764051968

Does that link work?

Firenight 28-Jan-21 07:48 PM

yes

if you're in the cyro server

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 07:51 PM

It’s the same screenie.

Is that first one from 4chan @ub3rman123 ?

Because if it is that’s good enough for a ban.

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 07:52 PM

No, the only screenshot posted to 4chan was the one near Elsweyr with /v/ on the ground.

Larrian (Morrowind) 28-Jan-21 07:52 PM

holy shit well done

did you figure out who it was then?

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 07:53 PM

It's a very good idea of it, but I'm going through the other people on the list so I can be certain there aren't multiple people who happen to line up with these.

Bellatrix 28-Jan-21 07:53 PM

Doh! I thought he’d been really stupid for a second.

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 07:53 PM

Checking image resolutions posted on the IB server.. I'm not on the Elsweyr one.

Nope, only a couple were on the IB server as well, and none had posted images with that resolution except Aikido.

Meglos (Morrowind) 28-Jan-21 07:56 PM

If someone messaged him about it they could probably figure out pretty quick from his reaction if he's the guy

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 07:57 PM

I really do understand now why people who dabble in darknet markets suggest never having your browser open at a standard resolution.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 07:59 PM

I saw someone mention that online once and I remembered it when I noticed the odd resolution of the screenshot

Larrian (Morrowind) 28-Jan-21 07:59 PM

also treading old ground but

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/330744052330921994/804507643195686922/unknown.png

this is soooo fucking funny

I mean

horrific

but funny

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 07:59 PM

Yes

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 07:59 PM

It's why I'd never get into the darknet, I'm too lazy to keep resizing my browser every session.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 08:00 PM

The idea isn't to resize it, it's to use the default resolution of Tor and not maximize it

So everyone pretty much looks the same to the sites

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 08:01 PM

Ohh, I did not know that detail

Browser fingerprinting still scares me off anyways.

Would a council vote on "This collection of data points is sufficient to ban without further discussion" be an appropriate way to proceed?

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 08:02 PM

Yes, I think so. There's a sentence about how the punishment is dependent on the severity of the infraction

Also if the council votes unanimously we can technically rewrite the charter, so banning a single member for recruiting fascists into the project is a reasonable application of that power. (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 28-Jan-21 08:04 PM

I don't think that's unreasonable

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 08:06 PM

Eh? Charter needs a rewrite to ban people for insulting transgender members of the project in a public space?

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 08:06 PM

No I mean

Hypothetically, a unanimous vote can change the charter

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 08:06 PM

Oh, okay, sounded like an oversight if it didn't have something like that covered already.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 08:06 PM

It can do anything within the legal framework of our project

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 08:06 PM

Ohh I get what you mean now.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 08:08 PM

As an aside and reference to what Larrian said, I am concerned that this is becoming a pattern. Even if this person isn't linked directly to Albuquerque, they're in the same circles and if this is what's happening is just them acting apart I'm very concerned at what they can do acting together.

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 08:09 PM

Yeah, most terrifying for me was the 4chan post (not a BS member, just some random 4channer) suggesting he doxx the trans people on the project so 4chan can harass them until they quit.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 08:09 PM

Also, they claim to have spoken to Skyblivion and other teams too. This isn't just our problem, it's the entire modding community.

Yeah, I saw that

ub3rman123 28-Jan-21 08:10 PM

ANyways, have to go do real life things now. Do ping if I'm needed.

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 08:10 PM

And it's not like The Frontier was made in a vacuum, either.

Later

Is anyone aware of any efforts in the community to combat this kind of stuff directly?

Larrian (Morrowind) 28-Jan-21 08:19 PM

there's too many epic gamers in the community for that

they'd think it's just 'virtue signalling'

Firenight 28-Jan-21 08:20 PM

as sad as this might sound i dont think the community is willing to do anything

Larrian (Morrowind) 28-Jan-21 08:20 PM

exactly

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 08:22 PM

I think Elianora would be, though she mostly does her own stuff as far as I know

I definitely am

Rubaedo 28-Jan-21 08:34 PM

Im just tired tbh

1shoedpunk 28-Jan-21 08:47 PM

Cyrodiil Lead Chat

message.txt

2.84 KB

Our leadership team came to the same conclusion independently

Really, rhea

I would like the document to be redacted, though, unless everyone in the log agrees to have their screen names there

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 03:27 AM

On the subject of the Albuquerque server Discord came back to me again and said they can’t do anything unless I can provide screenshots etc. Which given that I said I don’t have them in my original message to them is not encouraging

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 03:27 AM

ahh that's a shame

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 03:51 AM

Someone is asking a question about the 4Chan thing on Reddit

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 03:54 AM

Ah crap

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 03:56 AM

Yeah, I didn't want to answer that without getting guidance

For the previous one I was fine as I could just answer the Elsweyr bit without referencing it

Meglos (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 04:04 AM

Just don't answer tbh

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 04:07 AM

Yeah. The ‘ah crap’ was more people had notice the 4chan thing. It’s not a good look for us. Although at least they’re open about how they have to hide their behaviour on here.

Sol 29-Jan-21 04:11 AM

At the same time, not great because I'd rather the reddit people not go looking for the /v/ thread (edited)

What's the plan on this, by the way? As I understand it (was all happening while I was at work unfortunately), we seem relatively sure we know who it is. Where do we go from here?

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 04:13 AM

I really don’t know.

It’s a lot easier if you have direct proof. I mean I’m pretty convinced it is Smarty but it’s not like we have anything other than weight of evidence.

It’s not like with Deis where there was a whole paper trail of comments that were very definitely made by her.

Sol 29-Jan-21 04:17 AM

Hm. I'm not keen on having someone like that around. I think if we all have a review and come to a conclusion on what we have, it might be best to ban the guy and reaffirm our status as a LGBT-friendly place without saying who was banned.

That said, yes, unfortunately we don't have a Dei papertrail.

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 04:18 AM

No I’m really not keen on having them around either. But also not keen on banning the wrong person.

Not that I think it is the wrong person but hopefully you get what I mean? It’s so much easier when there’s direct evidence.

Sol 29-Jan-21 04:19 AM

No, I completely understand. It'd be rather stupid of us if it was the wrong person.

Sol 29-Jan-21 04:29 AM

I guess the only thing I can think of in this case is politely approaching him asking if he is aware of the /v/ thread to judge his reaction, whilst making sure he's removed from the git and gdrive folders in case he tries to sabotage anything. (edited)

1shoedpunk

He's proud of how capable men used to be, like his Nazi grandfather

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 04:52 AM

i would like to comment on this. The notion of being proud is very immature and one sided and shows a lack of education. This is not common in Germany. However, it should not automatically mean that this person also admires all crimes that have been convicted, although they really might appear as such and are negligent of the real meaning of things. This whole decade destroyed entire societies, and the claim that we never want to repeat this again was very clear for everyone who have experienced it or suffered from it even down to me as grandson and grandsons son. My grandparents and parents on both sides had great problems getting back to a normal life, it basically took 3 generations. As i mentioned, not only families but societies were destroyed. All my grandparents lost their families basically, and had a strong anti-authoritarian opinion as well as a pacifistic mindset, but they had to survive cold war and obbey local one party structures. Unfortunately, the 90ies and 20ies saw not only liberal development of our western societies but also the lack of taking education for social beliefs and pacifism important. I say that to tell you that this fellow is not representative, however i believe, that living in the era of a Donald Trump, this kind of relativism and interpretation will sadly increase especially under younger folk that doesnt even care. If they only watch some historic interviews to former soldiers on youtube, old grandpas that cry how they tried to survive in the murderous system. Those who are proud of the events back then befoul our memory of the great suffering that everyone had to face as consequence of their political immaturity. Regarding this grandfather that went to Scottland, i dont think he was such a believing nationalist, since he wanted to leave everything behind and just survived, as did the majority of people.

you should of course ban people that break our agreement of confientiality and reveal any project or personal information

*confidentiality

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 05:02 AM

it isn't the fact that his grandfather was a nazi, it was the fact that he seems to glorify it

but it's besides the point

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 05:13 AM

exactly

my grand grandfather and his 8 brothers and 2 sisters entered communist party in 1942, they had been in nazi party since 1939. it was such times. if you didnt join, you have been seen as an enemy. but thats old stories.

luckily now we are free and happy alltogether

i just have an odd feeling when such a boy talkes about history

they dont understand a thing

being proud of something you didnt do, and even more on suffering of others, this is just disgusting

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 05:22 AM

If I may propose something: could we have some basic community rules that we make a point of putting up in dev servers? Just some basic stuff like a link to the charter, telling people not to share private dev info outside the server, making it clear fashy shit like this is super not okay? I feel like that would at the very least help some more vulnerable folks feel a bit better.

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 05:31 AM

Yep. We can definitely do that.

But from what they posted on 4chan, this guy clearly knows his behaviour isn’t welcome and so hides it. It’s not that the bad behaviour is openly going on it BS, it’s more like attempted sabotage. Which won’t actually happen because all the teams have writing QC processes.

If they were openly posting the stuff hey posted on 4chan here then it would be a super easy instant ban. The hiding it part makes it really tricky to deal with.

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 05:39 AM

No of course I don't think that it will stop people like this, but I do think it will help make things a lot more clear and give a stronger protective sense here.

I mean by the time you're using fascist code words I very much doubt God himself descending on a flaming chariot pulled by mighty ophanim and heralded by the four living creatures could get you to stop being a nasty little prick.

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 05:44 AM

Probably not. Uggh. It’s just so gross. I mean it’s literally weeks since rob did the at all post in the dev server.

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 05:47 AM

Yeah, it's exhausting.

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 05:59 AM

What statement do you want to do? Just that we don’t condone it?

Alternatively we could go stronger and say the behaviour violates <insert relevant bits of charter> and we’re investigating. If we find out who it is they will be banned.

If you want to throw in some mind games say there are hints to who it is but to borrow from Scottish law, it’s currently not proven. Cos if it is smarty that tells him we know it’s him. And if it’s not it’s just a slightly pompous post:)

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 06:03 AM

Honestly I was thinking we can just add a seperate channel to all dev servers, lock it, and stick some really bog standard rules there like: 1. Racism, sexism, homophobia, and other forms of bigotry are not allowed in Beyond Skyrim! 2. Harassment is not accepted! If someone is bothering you, let a lead know. 3. Don't break discord TOS! etc etc etc

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 06:23 AM

We can probably just paraphrase the relevant bits of the charter and add a link to it.

I can try over the weeeknd if no one beats me to it?

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 06:34 AM

Yeah that sounds ideal, although I would like to include a clause specifically about bigotry, given the current drama.

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 06:38 AM

I got part way through itemising the proposed charter changes before (as) the Deis stuff kicked off. We should probably bite the bullet and revisit that.

Oh the fun never stops!

There is stuff in there about behaviour which definitely covers bigotry but doesn’t name it specifically, but I can’t see anyone objecting to us inserting bigotry specifically into it.

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 06:43 AM

Revisiting the charter was something Hannes and I brought up during the Deis stuff too, especially around dealing with straight up illegal behaviour

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 06:48 AM

Yeah. We should put everything in and come up with a final definitive updated charter we all ageee on. Might be easier to do it but by bit as some parts will literally just be removing the references to DC and others will need updating to reflect all the current crap.

Or we could slim it down and replace it with ‘don’t be a dick’ which covers pretty much all eventualities:)

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 06:53 AM

In very big letters

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 07:18 AM

In large, red, friendly letters on the back cover perhaps.

2

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 08:41 AM

That is not enough

We were infiltrated by a fascist who openly recruited other fascists to harass members. If we don't make a strong statement against them we're just giving them a slap on the wrist and it will happen again.

Are we agreed on banning them now or are we waiting to confront them? Because they're going to be online soon if they aren't already.

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 08:47 AM

One last thing I'd like to do is collect the worst posts that were made supposedly by the OP on that thread and confirm (writing style or something) that they actually are from the OP.

I don't want to ban and then have them show up with an alt saying "That was just someone else posting all that stuff, I only answered BS questions!"

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 08:49 AM

That's not going to be possible

We're never going to know for sure, they can just lie

He's never going to admit it

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 08:54 AM

I'm not saying we shouldnt investigate and ban the fuck. Honestly we should probably take this as a sign of things to come and be more stringent about our internal policy here. I'm just saying its at least one thing we can do.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 08:56 AM

Is there any objection to us banning them now from Cyrodiil? My only concern about doing it right now is that they'll still have access to the other teams files.

The ban should be everything at the same time

If possible

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 08:57 AM

Id prefer to do it all at once, yeah

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 08:57 AM

Can we do this very soon today then? I feel like we're starting to drag our feet.

And this is too important and too big.

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 09:06 AM

What are we banning him for? Solely the Nazi post in BS? That’s the only provable bit.

Or that and weight of evidence that he’s likely to be the 4chan poster?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 09:11 AM

Between the Nazi post and their comments in the writing department they're clearly expressing a Western Chauvinist viewpoint

On its own that is an ideology incompatible with the project

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 09:16 AM

Lemme do some actual work things this morning so I have something to show for the day, then I'll get on reviewing that 4chan post.

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 09:20 AM

Thanks U3ber

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 09:29 AM

Yes, thanks Ub3r!

Then we ban everywhere

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 09:31 AM

"Reviewing a 4chan post" Look what these awful people make me do

I'll try to pick out the heinous bannable comments that are ostensibly from the OP and try to link them with typing style if I can.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 09:32 AM

Just for reference, alot, ppl, and incase are the three consistently misspelled words that show up more than once in his posts here and on that post

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 09:32 AM

Lad as well

Or Lads

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 09:32 AM

Yes

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 09:32 AM

In the meantime, could someone put together a doc with the rest of the corroborating evidence/screenshots?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 09:34 AM

I can

I'll post here, just let me know if I'm missing anything

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 09:49 AM

First time I see smarty posting

Wasn't he said person?

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 09:50 AM

Yep.

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 09:51 AM

There are definitely two BS members posting here.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 09:54 AM

Oh should I ask him if he made the thread?

In a PM

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 09:54 AM

I don't think so. Does 4chan allow deletion of posts?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 09:54 AM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/110VkwE2jQutrSxx6vjmPEKY3zIztJBhwoT-aCojVX8E/edit?usp=sharing

Smarty Aikido

4chan thread: https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542164075 Time Zone Word usage: Ppl Alot Isnt Incase Lads Resolution 1680x1050 and ENB usage: Push for alternate start: Join date within the last year: Political statements: "ya trips dont lie but I...

This is what I have so far, request editing privileges if you want to add

I'm technically working so I don't know how much I can add

v__-_Im_on_Beyond_Skyrim._AMA_-_Video_Games_-_4chan.html

967.28 KB

It's archived and I saved a copy

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 09:59 AM

how was this found int he first place out of curiosity?

apologies for missing that

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:00 AM

I think @Bellatrix reported it?

Not sure who originally posted it

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 10:00 AM

No. I didn’t report that. I did Tobi to discord.

I didn’t think 4chan deleted stuff?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:02 AM

I don't know, but either way we have a backup and screenshots

Someone leaked Aikido to Thingy and he messaged me with these.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:05 AM

that looks amazingly like he's trying to cover his tracks

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:05 AM

There's nothing there either way, but the discussion of his "speculation" stands out to me

Yeah

It's not firm

But none of this is

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:07 AM

These are the posts I believe are by Aikido: https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542164075#p542165119 https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542164075#p542191315 https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542164075#p542202786 https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542164075#p542191965 https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542164075#p542202786 https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542164075#p542213510 https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542164075#p542219042

/v/ - I'm on Beyond Skyrim. AMA - Video Games - 4chan

I'm on Beyond Skyrim. AMA - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

/v/ - I'm on Beyond Skyrim. AMA - Video Games - 4chan

I'm on Beyond Skyrim. AMA - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:09 AM

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 10:09 AM

That would make sense cos the only thing that doesn’t fit with smarty is the use of ‘lads’

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:09 AM

this is fucked

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 10:09 AM

Now that you say trans phobic. I recently was forced to kick a guy from Iceland because of how and that they started talking to one of my members in a unconsciously aggressive and disrespectful pattern

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:10 AM

video is a fucking lotr clip lmao

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 10:10 AM

His name is blaechrim

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:10 AM

Reason I say there are two: https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542164075#p542201918 https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542164075#p542202786 The second link is a reply to the first, and the second is definitely from Aikido.

/v/ - I'm on Beyond Skyrim. AMA - Video Games - 4chan

I'm on Beyond Skyrim. AMA - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

The two highlighted posts, second being Aikido, first with a very different typing style.

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 10:11 AM

He is a older family father but also beer drinker and black metal head. He was more there as voice actor and relatively loosely connected to our team but in general a nice guy. But then he did a few bad messages to a few people. But he accepted my decision and invited me to his sauna even.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:11 AM

'even our trannies are tame and grounded'

what the actual fuck

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:12 AM

Can someone search the atmora server for anyone using desu

?

If there is a second person they're on Atmora

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:12 AM

Someone else wanna do the legwork on actually screenshotting the posts I linked that are from Aikido?

Because actual work work done today is still zero for me.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:12 AM

I might opt out

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 10:12 AM

It’s close to zero for me too

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:12 AM

I don't love reading this stuff tbh

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:13 AM

Yeah, I had to go through that whole thread. It was pain to figure out who was meant to be the OP.

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 10:13 AM

I welcomed roasted gorilla for that purpose yesterday

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:13 AM

The non-OP people say even worse.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:13 AM

yeah

I mean

I don't care what 4chan fascists think of our mod

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:13 AM

I still think there's only enough evidence supporting a single person whose typing style changes

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:13 AM

but I don't like that this sentiment exists

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:13 AM

Mostly the guy saying he should start doxxing devs so 4chan can harass them into quitting.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:13 AM

yeah that's pretty fucked

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:13 AM

Aikido has exhibited a similar variety of typing

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:14 AM

did aikido reach out to thingy?

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:14 AM

I don't want to start a witch hunt for the second person, more just "be on the look out" if we see anything in the future from 4chan. We can refer back to this set of posts.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:14 AM

No, Thingy reached out to him

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:14 AM

ahh yeah

well I can't wait to be doxxed out of the project sounds like a great time

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 10:16 AM

It’s just so messed up

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:16 AM

Anyways, the posts I linked as "definitely" Aikido are bannable by themselves.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:17 AM

we're 100% sure it's him?

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 10:17 AM

I’d go for 97%

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:17 AM

It's not like we didn't seriously look at everyone who fit the known criteria

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:17 AM

Always the off-chance it's somehow a 4chan frame job where a bunch of people copied his typing style..

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:17 AM

that's true

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:17 AM

I don't think he's as good at hiding his beliefs as he thinks he is

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:17 AM

I highly doubt it

you're right

we should keep an eye on the thread regardless

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:18 AM

The thread is locked now, but it's entirely possible another one shows up post-ban.

The usual "those awful people banned me".

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:18 AM

that's true

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 10:19 AM

It’s like looking into a mirror world. All the stuff about ‘the leads don’t say anything’ they think we’re being quiet because secretly we support them. No we’re being quiet because you haven’t quite stepped over the line and we just want you to get bored and shut up.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:19 AM

I am also somewhat concerned about him internally riling up other members about his ban

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 10:20 AM

Only person in directors chat who’s likely to be a problem is Novak

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:20 AM

if he's right about other people sharing his sentiments then that does concern me

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:20 AM

Let him rile, maybe it'll draw the other member out of hiding.

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 10:20 AM

All the other directors were freaked out by it.

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 10:21 AM

anyway i hope we can find this person.

its a breach of trust to talk like that in public

and on top, its hatred against other people. members specifically

dont know if reaching out to smarty was a good move, but its your team member i guess, not mine. and if they are not like that, maybe they will change

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 10:23 AM

I don’t know who told Thingy. I wish they hadn’t. It hasn’t helped.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:23 AM

yeah

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 10:24 AM

he is a nice guy. but he does things before considering

he sure has a lot of positive energy we need

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:24 AM

thingy handled it with style though so I forgive him lmao

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 10:24 AM

yeah i mean he is really a friend, thats how i consider it, dont get me wrong

but maybe we should really also talk with our department leads not to act on their own, perhaps

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:25 AM

that's for 1shoe and claire to handle if they wanna

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 10:25 AM

yes

no worries, it will be fine

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:25 AM

So when are we dropping the banhammer?

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 10:26 AM

We’ll have a gentle ‘pls don’t be a loose cannon’ chat with him.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:26 AM

He's going to be offline in 6 hours

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:26 AM

Do we have a vague quorum of leads here?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:27 AM

@here

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:27 AM

I made some quick documentation edits and dropped a Slack ping for work so I look productive today. Will get to adding the 4Chan posts to the doc.

Oh, sent edit access request @1shoedpunk / (edited)

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 10:27 AM

I am happy for you to ban whenever you feel is appropriate

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:28 AM

Done @ub3rman123

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 10:28 AM

Ditto. I might not be around super late tonight because I was up till 1 cos of this last night and I’m an old lady.

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 29-Jan-21 10:29 AM

What's going on?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:29 AM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/110VkwE2jQutrSxx6vjmPEKY3zIztJBhwoT-aCojVX8E/edit?userstoinvite=ub3rman123%40gmail.com&ts=60142969

Smarty Aikido

4chan thread: https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542164075 Time Zone Word usage: Ppl Alot Isnt Incase Lads Resolution 1680x1050 and ENB usage: Push for alternate start: Join date within the last year: Political statements: "ya trips dont lie but I...

1

There was a 4chan thread recruiting fascists posted by a fascist that we believe based off of significant evidence that it's Smarty/Aikido

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 29-Jan-21 10:30 AM

Ugh. Didn't we just deal with super-drama?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:30 AM

We did not just look at their posts, we looked at all of the members that fit the criteria of which projects the OP was on, what servers they had access to, when they joined, and what they said they do.

The smoking gun imho was that the OP and Smarty both use a relatively uncommon/rare screenshot resolution.

None of the other members that fit the bill do

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:31 AM

Yes, we were unable to find a single other person that meets even a majority of the data points.

Much less all of them.

I added the offensive 4chan posts to the doc.

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 29-Jan-21 10:32 AM

Wow, that sounds like some significant investigation.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:32 AM

We all worked together pretty quickly

This is a real life threat to members

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:32 AM

threats of doxxing MW and BM members bc we're all evil SJWs

I wish I was joking

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 29-Jan-21 10:34 AM

That's a big issue.

It sounds like the leg work's been done and the threats are real. Is there anything that would need to be done to secure ourselves before the banhammer drops?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:35 AM

Freeze applications

I think we need an unofficial freeze

Don't tell people

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 10:35 AM

Agreed

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:35 AM

I'll at least issue a "check applications more rigorously for a while" to my directors.

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 10:35 AM

Can I tell the Core?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:35 AM

That way we can try to identify any applications

Not yet

Well wait

Yes sorry

I told ours

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 10:36 AM

OK

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:36 AM

Yeah, I should do the same since he's active on IB.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:36 AM

Partially because they also identified him completely separately

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 10:36 AM

I can say that I can't say why yet

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:36 AM

Time to break out the extremely rarely used directors-only channel...

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:36 AM

From our investigation

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 10:39 AM

I have let the Elsweyr Core know (that we need to pause recruitment via application)

1

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:40 AM

#star_trek_memes on the IB server is becoming increasingly misnamed...

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 10:43 AM

I personally check applications in our small team with our department leads and they are mature and diverse personalies. But I will make an announcement for them too to be very careful

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:56 AM

Okay, wanna go ahead with the ban in 1 hour? Should give my directors enough time to wake up and read if needed.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:56 AM

I'm good with that

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 11:01 AM

Same

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 11:03 AM

I removed him from se-iliac-bay and se-assets. Is he already off heartlands?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 11:04 AM

What user?

Martin Zabek?

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 11:04 AM

smartymarty or something.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 11:04 AM

That's odd, he used Bob Harvey as their name on the Google Drive

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 11:05 AM

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 11:15 AM

Working on a statement

There was a recent unauthorized AMA thread posted to 4chan by a member of Beyond Skyrim. They were a relatively new member and we quickly identified and banned them. We won’t be identifying them publicly at this time. However, as the thread was public, we have received questions about it and found it necessary to address the situation. The views discussed within that thread represent a threat not just to Beyond Skyrim but the modding community as a whole. We have worked very hard over the past decade to build a project where anyone with the interest and ability to contribute has the opportunity to do so. The environment that we’ve fostered has helped us grow far beyond our humble start. We are not the first project to be targeted by such groups and we won’t be the last. If we want to continue to grow our community and put out content for people to enjoy, we need to be vigilant.

I would post this on my own in the BS reddit but if we want to make a bigger statement we could post it as a group in Skyrim modding.

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 11:16 AM

I'd be concerned about just amplifying it if we make a public public post. In the dev server, sure, but a Reddit post would just invite more people to ask about it.

I'd say if someone asks about it, give 'em that info, but no need to spread around 4chan.

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 11:18 AM

The first two paragraphs work if people ask us about 4chan specifically.

It gets a bit vauge after that.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 11:19 AM

I really believe that other projects need to be aware of this

I don't know if this is the best way to alert them all

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 11:19 AM

Could send it to the leads of the other projects and suggest they post it internally as well?

It really feels like putting out a big "4chan is targeting us" sign will result in... 4chan targeting us.

Their short attention span is really our greatest weapon.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 11:20 AM

Maybe

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 11:22 AM

If we know leads maybe just approach them directly and say we had some 4chan trouble just as an FYI it was this person.

Then it’s up to them if they do anything.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 11:22 AM

We know they're in Nirn Uncharted

And have spoken to people in Skyblivion

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 11:22 AM

Yep so we should definitely get in touch.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 11:22 AM

Yeah, I'm okay with that.

I feel like we should still say something publicly and get ahead of it. Otherwise it feels like a tacit endorsement.

But at the very least warning other projects will help with this immediate threat.

I'm more concerned about future threats now.

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 11:24 AM

At least the ban will for sure not be able to be interpreted as "the leads are quietly on my side and it's a vocal minority who are the problem".

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 11:25 AM

He’s still in this discord. Is it a BS wide ban?

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 11:25 AM

Yes, just holding off on the ban for another 35 minutes. Still working with my directors on removing his permissions.

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 11:26 AM

Ah.

I have git admin permissions for IB still I think if you need a hand with that.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 11:27 AM

are y'all aware skywind has a few fascists in their leadership as well?

eloth, one of their head 3d modellers had some awful opinions on the skywind server when I was there

Firenight 29-Jan-21 11:27 AM

one of the skywind leads were in the thread

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 11:27 AM

shit about the soc dems winning the swedish election being a 'red scourge'

ahhh there we go then

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 11:36 AM

Maybe a little world-affairs, but ehh, calling soc dems a "red scourge" would be par for the course in America.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 11:37 AM

I mean it wasn't just that but yes that's true

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 11:59 AM

Revised for internal use without the link and for other leads including the link There was a recent unauthorized AMA thread posted to 4chan by a member of Beyond Skyrim. It is archived for viewing here: https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542164075 While we identified the primary poster as a relatively new member and banned them, we won’t be identifying them publicly at this time. However, as the thread was public, we have received questions about it and found it necessary to address the situation. The poster made it clear that they were prejudiced against LGBTQ+ writers and concepts being included in the mod. Replies suggested targeted harassment against those members and both the poster and respondents used slurs and other denigrating language to describe them. The views discussed within that thread represent a threat not just to Beyond Skyrim but the modding community as a whole. We have worked very hard over the past decade to build a project where anyone with the interest and ability to contribute has the opportunity to do so. The environment that we’ve fostered has helped us grow far beyond our humble start. We are not the first project to be targeted by such groups and we won’t be the last. If we want to continue to grow our community and put out content for people to enjoy, we need to be vigilant.

/v/ - I'm on Beyond Skyrim. AMA - Video Games - 4chan

I'm on Beyond Skyrim. AMA - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

It's ban o'clock

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 11:59 AM

Banning it is!

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 12:00 PM

fun times

let me know how it goes

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:00 PM

I'll get Cyrodiil. We need him banned here, the community outpost, iliac bay, and the arcane university

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 12:00 PM

I'll ban him here

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 12:00 PM

Banned on IB.

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:02 PM

Banning Smarty99 on the Outpost

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 12:03 PM

Should I repost that in the IB core channel @1shoedpunk ?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:03 PM

Sure if you want

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 12:03 PM

And on here?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:03 PM

I'm fine with that

Oh, they are the one who wrote A Man and His Vices

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:03 PM

This is them isn't it?

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 12:03 PM

yes

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:03 PM

I thought Bob Harvey was a suspect independently from Smarty

But they're the same person, lol

Yes

gimmethoseeyes@gmail.com - that's their email address.

Just in case they reapply

Firenight 29-Jan-21 12:06 PM

banned from the au

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:06 PM

Done!

Banned from the Outpost

Will post your update on the Elsweyr Core

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 12:07 PM

Are we doing the general channel here?

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:07 PM

I think we should

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 12:08 PM

I guess I can take one for the team if you want?

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:08 PM

Thanks

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 12:08 PM

General or dev?

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 12:08 PM

Dev.

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 12:08 PM

It was discussed in general

Ok

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 12:09 PM

Yep, but dev has a more limited audience since you must have a role.

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:09 PM

Yeah, Dev is better I think

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 12:09 PM

Yeah. That was kind of my thinking

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 12:09 PM

Must remember the bots that were able to scrape server invites a while ago... (edited)

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 12:09 PM

But then it was discussed in general.

Will do dev

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:09 PM

Also true

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:11 PM

Dronon has also reached out to me asking if Aikido is the person and I confirmed, they're banning them from Alinor now.

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:13 PM

Thanks Claire

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:13 PM

Should I tell him directly?

We pretty much have to

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:14 PM

Dronon?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:14 PM

No, Aikido

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:14 PM

Ah

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:14 PM

I already told Dronon

1

I'll message Aikido

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 12:14 PM

Thanks 1shoe

1

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:22 PM

I tried but it bounced, Dronon is delivering the message and banning them from Alinor (edited)

Reacted about as expected

Can I share the evidence doc with Dronon?

He's a NU lead, right?

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 12:30 PM

I’d be fine with that.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:30 PM

https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542297928

/v/ - I am now really worried for other mod projects due to frontie...

I am now really worried for other mod projects due to frontier - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:30 PM

I can vouch for Dronon

He is a lead on both Alinor and Valenwood

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:32 PM

Shared, I asked him not to share with others without explicit permission

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:32 PM

It is not over

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 12:32 PM

Probably the second person I figured was in the thread.

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:33 PM

Yes, it must be

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:37 PM

Thingy had a suspect who is on Atmora as I posted above. No evidence other than came back into the chat at the right time, though.

And we do suspect the other person is on Atmora

Based off their knowledge of it

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 12:38 PM

Cross-reference against people with access roles on the dev server online right now?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:38 PM

Update from Dronon

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 12:38 PM

Based dronon

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 12:39 PM

Aw, I feel bad for him being stuck in the position of "I'm just the messenger, I can't answer anything."

I already hate PMing people for anything though.

Almost as bad as making phone calls.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:39 PM

And the rage quit

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 12:41 PM

Really not doing a very good job of selling the whole innocence thing huh

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:46 PM

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 12:47 PM

Lol come on

I almost want to share the evidence with them but it's useful if they try to reapply

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 12:48 PM

It has been removed already

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 12:59 PM

Well this is fun.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:00 PM

isn't it?

so happy to see our project come together in times of strife

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 01:00 PM

Well it kind of is. And then you have a Mathy hand grenade and one more 4chanposter.

Firenight 29-Jan-21 01:01 PM

ffs

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 01:01 PM

Locking the threads won’t work will it?

Not 100% sure I want to be identifying as myself right now!

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 01:02 PM

I just invited thingy a week a

Ago*

By the way a question from my department lead

Is there a pan-project list of banned users available for dept leads to see? Would be helpful for a quick check when handling applications.

Firenight 29-Jan-21 01:03 PM

https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542297928

/v/ - I am now really worried for other mod projects due to frontie...

I am now really worried for other mod projects due to frontier - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

watch this thread

thats where the leak may happen

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 01:07 PM

The person that posted the image to 4chan does not have the World Affairs tag.

https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542297928#p542318485

/v/ - I am now really worried for other mod projects due to frontie...

I am now really worried for other mod projects due to frontier - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:07 PM

nice that narrows it down

I say semi sarcastically

in all seriousness good job

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 01:08 PM

who knew world affairs would ever add anything positive to this server

Also, they don't have #muted , so they don't have department director flair, in case that allays anyone's fears.

They are clearly planning on releasing things.

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 01:12 PM

@Robcbwilson linton suggested shutting off new joiners to the public discord for a while if it’s a thing.

Can we lock the general and dev threads?

They’ll still be photo able though won’t they?

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:15 PM

yeah

Firenight 29-Jan-21 01:15 PM

yea this thread is full of BS members

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:15 PM

there's no way to turn off screencapping

Firenight 29-Jan-21 01:15 PM

ive counted like 4 right now

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:15 PM

jesus

that's honestly quite sad

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 01:16 PM

Yeah. Although we don’t know if they’re multiple accounts but it’s at least smarty and one other.

Firenight 29-Jan-21 01:19 PM

just as a general note

if you have your real name anywhere please change it

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 01:20 PM

Yeah, what's with people who use their real name on Gitlab? I don't even have my real name on my PC.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 01:20 PM

They can easily identify me from my Twitter being the same as here.

I'm not afraid though.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:20 PM

my name isn't anywhere

and if it is there's not much they can do

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 01:20 PM

Still in the hospital so I'm only getting bits of this, but I've read through everything and I fully support the proceedings

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 01:20 PM

Yeah, plane tickets to Australia are super expensive.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:20 PM

I'm mostly worried for the trans folk

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 01:20 PM

wouldn't try to harass you in person either

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:20 PM

lmao exactly

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 01:21 PM

IB absolutely does not condone this kind of thing

I would say that I trust everyone here to handle this, but it looks like you already did

2

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 01:22 PM

It doesn’t feel that handled right now. Feels like the eye of the storm!

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 01:23 PM

Oh wait did more happen? I'm just caught up on the ban

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 01:23 PM

On that note, can we report whoever is threatening to leak screenshots to 4chan?

Firenight 29-Jan-21 01:23 PM

no

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:23 PM

look in devs only sage

they didn't threaten to, they did

Firenight 29-Jan-21 01:23 PM

4chan is completely anonymous and everything goes there

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:23 PM

yeah

part of the reason it's so awful

Firenight 29-Jan-21 01:23 PM

yeah

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 01:23 PM

So they can’t ban someone?

Firenight 29-Jan-21 01:23 PM

nope

you could post horrible stuff and walk away fine

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 01:24 PM

Happy to report that until yesterday I’d never been on it:)

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 01:24 PM

I have been on 4Chan twice now

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 01:25 PM

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 01:25 PM

Once was enough. Suspect it won’t be the last time this week though:)

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 01:25 PM

This is a Cyrodiil member. The only post referring to chuds was made in our general server. (edited)

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 01:26 PM

FFS

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:26 PM

who are they referring to as annoying

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 01:26 PM

who is genecel?

Robcbwilson

Click to see attachment 🖼️

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 01:26 PM

not aware of him?

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 01:26 PM

I have the worst Discord search history now...

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 01:27 PM

Oh I see, there were two of them at least, great

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:27 PM

four, at firenight's current count

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 01:27 PM

We think this is Albuquerque?

Sorry if that's been asked already, I'm still trying to get caught up

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:28 PM

probably not

this is almost certainly separate

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 01:28 PM

Sigh

Bellatrix

Happy to report that until yesterday I’d never been on it:)

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 01:29 PM

same

i dont understand sethi. are they feeling with the victims or ?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 01:33 PM

They're referring to a post made by Raelyr in our general chat

Firenight 29-Jan-21 01:35 PM

We were right on akkido

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:35 PM

yeeeep

that's actually relieving

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 01:37 PM

hahah yes our secret illegal IP detecting technology

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 01:42 PM

Hope he has fun suing us.

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 01:42 PM

Well well

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:43 PM

it's very funny to me that we got him by looking at screenshot resolutions

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 01:43 PM

I was about to say lol, no one mention the screen resolution

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 01:43 PM

We got v lucky with that!

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 01:44 PM

Okay hold up, desu dude is a different person?

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:44 PM

there's hordes of them

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 01:44 PM

:(

I can't bear the thought of still being on a team with someone who says "desu".

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:44 PM

ikr

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 01:45 PM

Off to urban dictionary...

Firenight 29-Jan-21 01:45 PM

The sad thing is there are multiple people like that

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:46 PM

and there's not much we can do

which sucks

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 01:47 PM

Did a quick search through IB's discord just for fun and didn't find anything apart from its mention in the post about banning Aikido

Firenight 29-Jan-21 01:50 PM

Ffs

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 01:50 PM

fuck me

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 01:51 PM

I'm taking this to the Elder Scrolls Community Network

Firenight 29-Jan-21 01:51 PM

He can leak the esm if he wanted to

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 01:51 PM

It's a server created by Bethesda

For interacting with fan projects and sites

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 01:51 PM

Yeah. That’s probably a good idea.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 01:52 PM

Ugh, it's basically dead

I was hoping that they'd have more people there

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 01:56 PM

It wouldn't hurt, and I'll support you there if necessary

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 01:59 PM

Done

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 02:00 PM

I’m on it too.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 02:03 PM

Just to be clear, I was able to find their "fake name" that they claim they used as well as their real name.

I won't post their real name here at all, but their pseudonym was Bob Harvey.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 02:19 PM

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 02:20 PM

So it's that very person. Let me know if there are further measures necessary

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 02:56 PM

So I think it must be someone in the dept director channel

Because I totally just made up the number

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 02:57 PM

elaborate?

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 02:57 PM

I have no idea if he actually did 2 or not

Firenight 29-Jan-21 02:57 PM

Wym

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 02:57 PM

Above you can see the person who posted a screenshot of the server doesn't have director tag though.

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 02:57 PM

But that post is saying he did 2 shit quests

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 02:57 PM

Two is a pretty random low number when saying something like that though.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 02:57 PM

yeah

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 02:58 PM

If they were a director, zero chance they'd be able to resist reposting from that channel.

It's too spicy for them.

Larrian (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 02:58 PM

idk if that's sufficient evidence

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 02:58 PM

OK, maybe I'm worried over nothing

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 02:59 PM

That was partly why I was letting the crazy in directors chat run. See if we get any leaks.

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 03:37 PM

Just a note, someone is posting MW screenshots without usernames censored.

https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542297928#p542334094

/v/ - I am now really worried for other mod projects due to frontie...

I am now really worried for other mod projects due to frontier - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

Also, that guy is actually legitimately taking offence with a "BE GAY DO CRIME" easter egg.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 03:40 PM

Another thread https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542314582

/v/ - Beyond Skyrim - Video Games - 4chan

Beyond Skyrim - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 03:41 PM

Same screenshot?

About to be banned from the Outpost

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 03:41 PM

Can you link the post?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 03:42 PM

Not the same person who posted it I don't think

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 03:42 PM

This was a DM

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 03:42 PM

That screenshot was posted on 4chan

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 03:42 PM

Check if the dimensions of the crop are the same.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 03:42 PM

Was it?

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 03:42 PM

Yes, to a moderator

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 03:42 PM

https://i.4cdn.org/v/1611952343441.png

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 03:42 PM

That's still not necessarily the same person who posted it originally

But yeah that Ulfric guy seems like he's one of them demanding answers

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 03:44 PM

Not any longer

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 03:45 PM

Kagrenax appears in the screenshots. Is this just Kagrenax posting old stuff?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 03:45 PM

I think so?

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 03:45 PM

Eh, could just be someone reposting from the last 4chan drama thread.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 03:46 PM

Nice @Robcbwilson

1

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 03:46 PM

I find it hilarious that that crate is the best example of "They're evil SJWs who hate us!" they have.

Sol 29-Jan-21 03:49 PM

Just a note: if you haven't already, I strongly suggest backing up your project files, especially the gdrive just in case. It won't help with leaks if they already have the files, but it's still a good thing to do while things are a bit volatile.

Firenight 29-Jan-21 03:51 PM

Maybe a bit extreme but I would honestly say a purge of the git repositories would be a good idea

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 03:55 PM

It wouldn’t be a bad idea at all tbh

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 04:00 PM

Cartograffi has been notified of what's going on along with heads of the modding community in that server I mentioned earlier.

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 04:00 PM

Thanks!

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 04:03 PM

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 04:35 PM

New thread: https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542314582

/v/ - Beyond Skyrim - Video Games - 4chan

Beyond Skyrim - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 04:39 PM

Love the way it starts off totally normal ‘oh yeah I’m looking forward to Roscrea ’ and then just gets gross.

Sol 29-Jan-21 04:40 PM

Thats 4chan for you

Sol 29-Jan-21 05:22 PM

@Morrowind this is regarding writing a MW quest because apparently we only like quests with two path choices

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 05:23 PM

I informed a lead on Fallout: Miami that one of their devs is in there posting similar stuff

Sol 29-Jan-21 05:24 PM

yeah i saw that too

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 05:24 PM

Now it sounds like it’s just bitter ex members.

I mean katie isn’t even on BS anymore is she so it must be from along time ago?

Sol 29-Jan-21 05:25 PM

2018

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 05:25 PM

Duh. It’s past my bedtime again:)

Sol 29-Jan-21 05:25 PM

they're practically a walking salt mine

also possibly a ros member

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 05:33 PM

Just checking to see if that’s a public or at least dev server post.

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 05:34 PM

Maybe you want to make a reminder announcement that you don't want people to do one man Army pr moves?

Doesn't look like bad intention

But I guess you still don't want that

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 05:35 PM

Yeah. I mean there’s nothing wrong with it other than if it’s on one of those threads there’s a lot of wrong going on around it.

It’s one of ribs screenies and he often posts them in the outpost so it might be from there.

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 05:36 PM

If it flipps or appears wrong they can't do anything about it there

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 05:37 PM

The post kind of sounds like like they’re an outsider to Roscrea though.

Hannes821 29-Jan-21 05:39 PM

Yeah maybe just someone who likes it and tries to push positive vibes for a difference

Night

Robcbwilson 29-Jan-21 05:41 PM

I didn't post that particular one on the Outpost

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 05:42 PM

https://twitter.com/GamesHotline

Games and Online Harassment Hotline (@GamesHotline)

We provide text based, confidential, emotional support for people who make and play games. Text SUPPORT to 23368 to get started. Mon-Fri, 4-7pm PT, USA only.

Tweets

506

Followers

1789

In case any of this gets a bit too serious

Bellatrix 29-Jan-21 05:44 PM

Oh that’s a good idea. I can think of the odd person we should possibly let know about that.

Although not sure if US based but better than nothing!

Sol 29-Jan-21 06:26 PM

Dunno if it's worth warning TR but Smarty is trying to join TR now

Meglos (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 06:32 PM

I think the TR people saw Rich's message in the TES community network?

But I'll make sure

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 06:41 PM

Yes, I got that to a lead of TR

I also let a Fallout: Miami lead know about their leaker

What channel is this?

It was in dev chat

On this server

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 06:50 PM

They.. censored the dates?

Sol 29-Jan-21 06:52 PM

???

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 06:53 PM

They probably realized the time zone thing was part of how we realized it

Sol 29-Jan-21 07:05 PM

yeah another dev is actively posting screens https://i.4cdn.org/v/1611965002260.png

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 07:13 PM

Just FYI but mathy is absolutely furious about this stuff and I'm needing to talk him down.

Sol 29-Jan-21 07:14 PM

instead of actually being mad at the people throwing slurs around? (edited)

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 07:20 PM

:I

MHM

Sol 29-Jan-21 07:20 PM

Awesome

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 07:20 PM

Honestly at this point I'm kinda looking at a time limit on the guy

Because if he keeps throwing his weight around like this Im really not sure its worth keeping him on

Sigh

Sol 29-Jan-21 07:21 PM

I feel like this is a big cultural divide thing as well, which doesn't help

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 07:21 PM

FYI he's also apparently a boomer lmfao

Which I feels covers like 60% of it

Sol 29-Jan-21 07:23 PM

Oh. I thought he was in his twenties. Right. I'm gonna tap out on this for a while and try to do something BS productive. Stick it to the haters and all that

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 07:23 PM

On another subject: Honestly considering how much I show up in these leaked screenshots I'm shocked no one has tried to hit me up.

Sol 29-Jan-21 07:25 PM

Might be because non-leads seem like easier pickings. Might be because they fear you lol

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 07:26 PM

Lmfao big scary gay lady Rubaedo

Sol 29-Jan-21 07:26 PM

You do have a threatening, all-consuming aura about you

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 07:26 PM

Im still rolling on the ground laughing that someone sent a transphobic message to Eric about how he'll never be a real woman

You know, the guy with the username "Eric Gordon Berg," a clear giveaway for being a trans woman.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 08:03 PM

@Morrowind RoastGorilla on our server has reported that Kagrenax, who they believe posted this image, is now John P

I don't know if they actually posted it or if someone else on Morrowind had these images from somewhere earlier, but either way figured you would want to know

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 08:11 PM

God I miss Melancholeric

Firenight 29-Jan-21 08:12 PM

https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542358401

/v/ - Beyond Skyrim: Shitshow General - Video Games - 4chan

Beyond Skyrim: Shitshow General - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

someone is uploading some sort of build

Cyrodiil and Illiac Bay

and SE Assets

@1shoedpunk and @ub3rman123 you should know about this

Sol 29-Jan-21 08:15 PM

It's still likely Smarty since he did have git access to both

Firenight 29-Jan-21 08:15 PM

yeah

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 08:16 PM

oh no they'll have an incomplete build with a bunch of broken textures

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 08:17 PM

Yeah I mean its unfun, but I doubt you've got many quests in the current build, right? Its not like they can spam spoilers.

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 08:17 PM

Maybe they'll follow through on their threat of making their own Beyond Skyrim without any of that LGBT filth.

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 08:17 PM

Lmao how would they even approach dealing with canonically genderless Black Marsh

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 08:17 PM

Yeah, nothing, really. I was a proponent at some point of releasing our landscaping progress anyways.

Oh man, they're going to try to upload it as a single zipped file? Oh lord jesus.

Sol 29-Jan-21 08:17 PM

asset theft does kind of worry me though

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 08:17 PM

Good luck to them.

Firenight 29-Jan-21 08:18 PM

yeah

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 08:18 PM

Where would they upload their stolen assets? Can't use Nexus or Steam because admins will nuke it.

Sol 29-Jan-21 08:18 PM

but it would surely take awhile to track down and identify multiple people doing it on the nexus/steam

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 08:19 PM

They could use some sort of private network, but tbh I feel like we're giving them more credit than theyre worth. They're doing all of this on a public forum, its not exactly the height of espionage.

Fascists tend not the be the sharpest knives in the drawer.

Firenight 29-Jan-21 08:20 PM

yeah but part of me thinks they want us to see this

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 08:22 PM

I mean if they want us to see it then its probably for the purpose of either scaring us (which I dont think any of us are really scared, just peeved), or to make some grand stand with dramatic music about how "See! We will fight you to the last! Never again will we tolerate seeing icky gays!"

Sol 29-Jan-21 08:22 PM

they are free to knock themselves out

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 08:24 PM

With how large and impossible to down the file is, I will say less than a dozen people even try to install.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 08:32 PM

I'm sorry, this still slays me

The latest thread has been archived - anyone have a lead on the followup?

They didn't post a link but there definitely will be one

Firenight 29-Jan-21 08:35 PM

https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/542358401

/v/ - Beyond Skyrim: Shitshow General - Video Games - 4chan

Beyond Skyrim: Shitshow General - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

you saw what i said?

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 08:36 PM

Yes, sorry. I heard the rumor and we were discussing it in Cyrodiil

We're not as concerned right now because it's basically free PR and next to no one will side with these people (edited)

It's serious, yes, but in terms of actual harm towards people? I don't think it will hurt us as much as they think it will.

Frankly half the thread speaks of us in disdain and the other half in reverence

We could possibly even turn some hearts

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 08:40 PM

Yeah I mentioned before, theyve had plenty of opportunity to harass people like me and theyve yet to do anything, which to me makes it sound like a few pissy fashy members trying to use 4chan as a personal army, rather than a concerted effort to do anything.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 09:00 PM

Who is this

Rubaedo 29-Jan-21 09:01 PM

I mean #2 there is a pretty valid issue tbh

But no idea who it is that posted that

Sol 29-Jan-21 09:07 PM

yeah probably this dev who is posting screens from the outpost dev chat https://i.4cdn.org/v/1611972365504.png

Meglos (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:07 PM

This is concerning https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/784378026061856779/804910190645870642/unknown.png

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:09 PM

We can confirm that his permission change, logged here, came before we fixed permissions. Unless there's some weird way Google Drive functions that we're not aware of, he let them in.

@Sage of Ice

Sage of Ice 29-Jan-21 10:11 PM

Shit what's happening now?

Wait I see now

Meglos (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:13 PM

Novac changed the link so that everyone on the internet could view, it seems

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:13 PM

As mentioned in #department_directors , he changed it from anyone being able to edit.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:14 PM

Yeah, that was my honest mistake

Meglos (Morrowind) 29-Jan-21 10:14 PM

So can we see who made it editable before that?

ub3rman123 29-Jan-21 10:14 PM

Probably was like that whole whole time? Drive permissions are hard.

1shoedpunk 29-Jan-21 10:15 PM

It's not recent, we probably opened it up for a meeting years ago and forgot about it.

Still raises the question of how they identified that to edit

Firenight 29-Jan-21 10:30 PM

BSAssets has been posted

Bellatrix 30-Jan-21 03:16 AM

Oh well. First leak in ~10 years kind of sucks, but 10 years is a pretty good record:)

What a crappy person he is.

Sol 30-Jan-21 03:17 AM

Good news is only the assets were posted. Never managed to fully complete the torrent for IB and never started posting Cyrodiil

Meglos (Morrowind) 30-Jan-21 03:17 AM

It was a glorious trainwreck of a leak at least

Bellatrix 30-Jan-21 03:25 AM

How salty are we allowed to get? Because o can’t quite believe a self entitled prick who had barely been around for a year and was a very minor member of cyrodiil had the audacity to think they had the right to leak so many other peoples hard work.

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 03:30 AM

Apuru Kun is mighty novac ? I am slow

My discord just showed the original names without nicknames in dep lead channel as a bug for the blink of a second in white

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 03:42 AM

Are we going to do a full audit of everyone who has GIT access and be more careful about who gets access in the future as a bookend to this?

1

Bellatrix 30-Jan-21 03:50 AM

I’m not sure how we be more careful. Smarty was a writer who apart from the word grandfather post that we should have spotted seemed like a regular team member. Right up to the point where he went on 4chan.

We’d give the next smarty access too.

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 03:59 AM

you should only give vision access to LDs and imps, and only edit permissions to dep leads. is my suggestion, thats how we do it.

and never never permission links, i kept saying that

dep directors and team leads in pan bs vocab

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 04:01 AM

Yes, I agree Hannes

Only people who need it to work on the files should get access

We should also regularly audit it and remove people when they leave

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 04:57 AM

On Elsweyr we had a comparable problem with Trello when Bard left. He was opposed to removing anyone because it might make our team look "small". We were faced with having literally 100 people there who no-one new. I simply emailed the team asking anyone who was removed accidentally to DM me with their email address / Trello account and then removed everyone I didn't recognise

Took one day

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:19 AM

Yes. We don't need to be big to be a great team. We need Expertise and trust and an open environment.

Is that related to the leak story?

New post on Reddit 30 mins ago

Bellatrix 30-Jan-21 06:24 AM

Probably

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:25 AM

@Robcbwilson don't you have admin on Reddit?

Maybe, once they released something

Let's see what they do and then remove the post

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 06:25 AM

I do, but only on our subreddit

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:25 AM

It will take time for them to repost

And we will think about our response in public and they might even give up

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 06:26 AM

I am inclined to just remove it tbh

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:26 AM

I would be patient and wait?

Maybe

Bellatrix 30-Jan-21 06:26 AM

I probably would. It's in our subreddit isn't it?

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 06:26 AM

It is yes

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:26 AM

They don't know yet you can do that

Let's see what they actually do

So far it's just gossip

They test us, too. Most people will not even care or understand

Bellatrix 30-Jan-21 06:27 AM

True. God I[m bored of this now

Just waiting for cyrodiil to copy over into MO and I have some skingrad interiors to polish

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 06:28 AM

I think given what happened with Frontier I will kill it

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:28 AM

We shouldn't validate theories that we are autocratic

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 06:29 AM

Yes, but we also shouldn't just allow people to post junk on our Subreddit

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:29 AM

They don't know yet we can manage it appropriately. I would love to read their post and immediately remove it.

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 06:29 AM

Frankly, what people on 4Chan think of me as a person is of no interest to me

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:29 AM

It would give advantage

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 06:30 AM

What advantage?

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:31 AM

To know if they're actually dangerous or just talking

And how they behave exactly, what exactly they can do and did.

The moment they committed an offense, the situation is different

Now, it's just a game

We should not throw the first stone, to quote the Bible

Just my opinion. But I am not in Charge

Once they know, they will post elsewhere

Bellatrix 30-Jan-21 06:34 AM

Beth would just delete it

I'm not sure what the answer is but essentially you don't mud wrestle with pigs and if the community does see that post it is likely to turn into a mud wrestle

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:36 AM

Hmm. I meant yes it should be removed as soon as possible

But I was curious if they even go a next step

In other words, they only do that seeking attention

Bellatrix 30-Jan-21 06:36 AM

I'd jsut remove it and ban them

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:36 AM

The worst that can happen is that nobody responds

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 06:36 AM

It is gone now

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:37 AM

Okay. I would expect that this will make them more determined

Bellatrix 30-Jan-21 06:37 AM

At the and of the day it's our community. We don't need to put up with people saying we're frontier on our own message forum. It's not legitimate criticism, it's jsut trolling

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:37 AM

But maybe also more hilarious

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 06:37 AM

I am done with hilarious, I just want to get back to modding

1

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:37 AM

Sure, I understand. I just thought about a way to contain it

Sure.

Robcbwilson

I am done with hilarious, I just want to get back to modding

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 06:38 AM

Absolutely. Which is why I thought of subsequent de escalation by delaying any response and showing them they aren't as important as they think

It's going on all our nerves, I absolutely understand

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 09:30 AM

Didn't they remove all links to outpost for a day or two?

https://www.reddit.com/r/beyondskyrim/comments/l8l1yc/beyond_discord/

r/beyondskyrim - Beyond Discord?

0 votes and 1 comment so far on Reddit

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 09:34 AM

Yes, we did

At one point, people from 4Chan were trying to come on and say Sneed

As well as DMing moderators

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 09:40 AM

Because said Reddit post just posted a link to our discord

See link above.

Churchburn88 also is not a very trustworthy name. Just saying

Did you get this message, @Robcbwilson

Else, if you really don't want new People to join now, that link should be deactivated in the Reddit post above and the thread removed

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 09:42 AM

Yes, I did

The link in the post is dead in any case

Removed it

1

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 01:14 PM

I just went through SE-Assets and SE-Heartland and removed 28 people across both repositories that I know have left BS / Elsweyr

If we can all do the same, it would greatly help with keeping it tidy

ub3rman123 30-Jan-21 02:23 PM

IB should be pretty clean, the swap to a new repo for SE was essentially a housecleaning at the same time.

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 02:24 PM

Excellent!

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 02:26 PM

Atmora is zero clean lol. Not even I have access

Which is totally how it should be

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 02:26 PM

Actually, you do

Pretty sure I saw your name

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 02:27 PM

Ah ok

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 02:27 PM

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 02:27 PM

Lol. See I don't even know

Feel free to remove me. I might help at roscrea though

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 02:28 PM

Help Roscrea, then we will remove you

1

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 02:34 PM

Lol

I help either way

Be careful or I keep helping elsweyr hahhaha

1

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 03:33 PM

@Robcbwilson ugly new post 2 minutes ago.

in our subreddit

seems its bed time for the kid

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 03:34 PM

Good spot!

Removed

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 03:35 PM

funny they dont yet realise we remove them

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 03:36 PM

They don’t seem to, no

They posted another one

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 03:44 PM

ye.

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 03:45 PM

I will keep a closer eye on it

I have been watching it all day on and off

Hannes821 30-Jan-21 03:46 PM

you can look at our channel "community updates" in atmora, i get a notification there publicly for all new posts

i am afraid i wake up and i have to delete a few dozen lol

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 03:49 PM

Hope not

I can watch it for another few hours

Robcbwilson 30-Jan-21 04:00 PM

I banned the person who made both the posts

1

Robcbwilson 31-Jan-21 03:38 AM

All quiet on Reddit

1

ub3rman123 31-Jan-21 09:47 PM

It's been pointed out that the charter doesn't actually have a specific offence for "literally leaking the entire project to 4chan". This was the closest I could find:

5.6.3 Breach of trust Several other offences are not in themselves illegal but nevertheless should be regarded as very severe misconduct for which expulsion may be a proper sanction. These include, but are not limited to: Breaching the trust of a fellow member where information was offered confidentially (for example when mediating disputes between team members). Note, however, that team leads are allowed the defences of acting in the interests of the parties in question, or of averting serious harm to Beyond Skyrim as a whole. Willfully defying the attribution requirements and/or permissions of a third party modder or deliberately misleading the rest of the community as to such, may, if proven, be considered evidence of dishonest behavior, and as such constitute grounds for expulsion. 5.6.4 Bringing Beyond Skyrim into disrepute Acting in such a way so as to damage the reputation of Beyond Skryim, including but not limited to spreading malicious rumors, deliberately misleading information, character assassination, and repeatedly acting in a rude or disrespectful way to fellow members on public forums, or to members of other communities and/or projects, may be considered grounds for expulsion.

I mean, I know it's common sense, but should we go ahead and wedge that in there next round of updates?

Hannes821 31-Jan-21 11:13 PM

We can specify it but the project information should be seen as confidential information along with personal information. It's the most common interpretation. But it really wouldn't hurt to specify it even more so it's really evident to anyone that they shouldn't do that (if they borther reading, or at least it makes our job more transparent and easy to explain what must be done)

Bellatrix 01-Feb-21 02:28 AM

It comes under unauthorised PR

Robcbwilson 01-Feb-21 03:40 AM

Do we have any idea who the new leaker is?

Bellatrix 01-Feb-21 03:45 AM

No

Not even sure if it’s a new leaker. Could be smarty managed to get the files to someone who can host a torrent.

Whoever it is leaked the build before last. Don’t know if git records who’s downloaded what.

Robcbwilson 01-Feb-21 03:56 AM

It may well do, worth checking out

Bellatrix 01-Feb-21 03:56 AM

I will tonight if no one else does first.

Robcbwilson 01-Feb-21 04:36 AM

Under the category it never rains but it pours, someone has advised me that Tobi is back talking to people again. There is no indication that he plans to try and rejoin BS but given that he has done this before it is probably worth keeping an eye on applications

Bellatrix 01-Feb-21 04:43 AM

Given we’ve all stealth frozen recruitment he’d have a hard time anyway:)

Robcbwilson 01-Feb-21 04:44 AM

Yes totally, just wanted to warn everyone just in case though

Hannes821 01-Feb-21 04:50 AM

its not even PR, its simply releasing confidential information.

every screenshot, every music or text info.

they talked about a grooming 2d lead, i wonder if they meant deisabri in AU before

anyways

i dont even know what grooming means, i should google it

Bellatrix 01-Feb-21 07:41 AM

You know it’s not a proper BS crisis unless Mathy is singlehandedly arguing with everyone

Robcbwilson 01-Feb-21 07:41 AM

ROFL, yeah

Bellatrix

You know it’s not a proper BS crisis unless Mathy is singlehandedly arguing with everyone

Rubaedo 01-Feb-21 07:57 AM

Bellatrix 01-Feb-21 12:28 PM

I don’t know if this would help or not but from the 4chan thread it seems like there’s a lot of confusion around who has been banned and for what.

Do we need to be better at communicating this stuff?

Larrian (Morrowind) 01-Feb-21 12:29 PM

not to 4chan

but to our teams? Yes

Bellatrix 01-Feb-21 12:29 PM

Sorry. Should have been clear. Teams not 4chan.

But someone from our teams (probably cyrodiil) is spouting confused nonsense on 4chan

I don’t think we should put out an announcement or anything because that will probably make it worse but it’s something that we might need to do better on the future.

Larrian (Morrowind) 01-Feb-21 12:31 PM

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/784378026061856779/805849315129556992/unknown.png

this is nice

but yes I agree

also maybe have a tighter policy on anything involving minors

Bellatrix 01-Feb-21 12:32 PM

I don’t get the last post? About bullshit.

And fingers crossed you don’t get leaked. So far it’s just heartlands taking one for the team.

1shoedpunk 01-Feb-21 08:58 PM

I thought I had a plan but I think we're just going to have to deal with a leaker on the team unless anyone has a better idea

Firenight 01-Feb-21 10:06 PM

imho its worth purging everyone off the repositories just to be safe and being more strict on them

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 01-Feb-21 10:59 PM

that's what Morrowind did

ub3rman123 01-Feb-21 11:14 PM

I'd rather not do it for IB. If the person leaking things is an LD or something, they can just request access again, because they need it. And I believe our writers need to be able to see the world they're working with as well.

Of course, if this leaking becomes a pattern, I'll be more strict about it.

A one-time cleanup of who has repo access wouldn't be a bad thing though, just I don't want to start saying "You don't have the right to access the files" to members.

Larrian (Morrowind) 01-Feb-21 11:19 PM

oh no I just meant we cleaned it

very thoroughly

anyone inactive lost access - and some people might need to re-request

ub3rman123 01-Feb-21 11:23 PM

I don't think we have too many inactive people on IB, but I'll comb through the repo.

Meglos (Morrowind) 02-Feb-21 12:54 AM

I removed pretty much everyone from our git except for leads and very active, trusted members for the time being

Better safe than sorry

Bellatrix 02-Feb-21 03:10 AM

If we’re the only dev build that’s leaked by the weekend it should be relatively easy to check who only has access to cyrodiil.

Bellatrix 02-Feb-21 03:58 AM

Ares isn’t a to e on any project is he? I know he was banned from the outpost and IB but if I remove his assets access will that cause drama?

Hannes821 02-Feb-21 04:30 AM

I would. I trained ares in ld 2 years ago and then he was inactive and only remained in draketand and other small teams and didn't want to take up all the training he got and do anything, and I still don't understand what changed his character so drastically but it just happens

His initial work was very good and he worked a lot on improving.

What a pity

I think he entered uni if I remember correctly, but he didn't ever do anything bad to atmora. Was always correct

Hannes821 04-Feb-21 11:59 AM

wasnt there this old charter with suggestions that 1shoed checked? to avoid doing the same thing twice, i would start there.

so much 4chan...

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-21 12:01 PM

We have your suggestions from during the Deis case

Hannes821 04-Feb-21 12:18 PM

yes. that too, and the dark creations removal aspect.

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-21 12:19 PM

Yes, totally

That old stuff needs to be weeded out

Hannes821 04-Feb-21 12:19 PM

i made a copy of what we had from thingy, and was commented by you already. I am not suggesting any controversial changes, only the names as everyone agrees and the process we went through in short

https://docs.google.com/document/d/10Q6X1YMfSUFyTnEtWxF9qN5M3QyhCfzNXoqd-Mxc0ec/edit?usp=sharing

Beyond Skyrim Charter

Beyond Skyrim Charter The '''Beyond Skyrim Charter''' is the constitution of this community. These basic agreements between the teams assure cooperation and mediation and balance of interests. TOC == Condensed Version == The Constitution codifies all of the un...

so any unaccaptable change suggestions from thingy should be reverted of course

(its only comments)

Bellatrix 04-Feb-21 12:20 PM

I’ve already mostly pulled together comparisons of what the original says and the suggested changes.

But then Deis happened and it all kind of got forgotten.

Hannes821 04-Feb-21 12:20 PM

yes

one topic at a time and slow enough to be careful.

Bellatrix 04-Feb-21 12:22 PM

It’s section bu section. In some cases broken out onto paragraphs if there were a lot of changes. I I didn’t even bother with one cos it was way out of scope with what the person claimed to have been doing (removing DC references)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LS8FvsDz4Q8bs37cgRv4xIIYaoOK86W7wHcFiPqBdJg/edit

Charter amendment side by side comparison - condensed version

In the comparison all text with a strikethrough will be removed in the final version. Additions or rewording are highlighted in bold. Condensed Version 1O The Constitution codifies all of the unwritten conventions that in the past have dictated how Beyond Skyrim is run. It should still be run in ...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SiFFQ7vNiKJLsv6AOFh4couLI8IWP93C5TfyHkhFiLQ/edit

Charter amendment side by side comparison - full version

Full version O Preamble On Behalf of the Team Leads of Beyond Skyrim Nobody could dispute that Beyond Skyrim has changed greatly since its beginning in November 2011. We started out as a discussion group to ensure compatibility between fundamentally separate mods, and since then, via the common h...

This is just the side by side comparison - it doesn't include any of the stuff that came up during the Deis investigation

And I think I changed a bit about PR at Robs request as the old charter was pre the PR dept

Potentially we could vote on each section / paragraph, but probably need to add in anything that needed changing as a result of the discussions around Deis before we do

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-21 12:47 PM

I think your proposed changes are an excellent place to start @Bellatrix

Shall we call for a vote on them?

Hannes821 04-Feb-21 01:40 PM

wait @Robcbwilson should we not carefully start all in one document and first discuss before voting?

i dont feel that if we vote now it actually resolves both topics yet

i had promised to work a bit on it.

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-21 01:41 PM

No, I meant what Bellatrix did

Removing the DC mentions

1

Hannes821 04-Feb-21 01:48 PM

so the both documents are the suggested new version. But what changed at some highlighted areas, i cant tell.

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-21 01:51 PM

The changes are hightlighted with the old version struck out with lines

Bellatrix 04-Feb-21 01:51 PM

Sorry - one thing that held me up was how to make it clear.

Hannes821 04-Feb-21 01:51 PM

ah now i see. there is N for new and O for old.

Bellatrix 04-Feb-21 01:51 PM

One document is the short version and one the extended version of the charter.

Hannes821 04-Feb-21 01:51 PM

it should be dealt together in the same way.

Bellatrix 04-Feb-21 01:52 PM

What I’ve done is anything with an o next to it is the old version then directly below is the same paragraph or section from the (proposed) new version with an n next to it.

I’ve then tried to highlight the changes in the mew version in yellow so you can compare easily.

Only reason it’s two documents is it was getting quite large.

I think voting section by section is going to be easier.

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-21 01:53 PM

I added a new sentence in the PR section

Bellatrix 04-Feb-21 01:53 PM

Some sections may be contentious so it would be a shame if we don’t update it at all because we can’t agree on one section.

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-21 01:53 PM

That is fair

Hopefully, this is not the contentious part of making updates

Hannes821 04-Feb-21 02:20 PM

It only makes sense. But we are working again with permission links instead of personalized access by mail. I think we should use colours for old and new and comments.

And overall, maybe some cheesy old political language isn't necessary after these years anymore.

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-21 02:22 PM

Let's start with the easy stuff (getting rid of DC mentions)

1shoedpunk 04-Feb-21 02:22 PM

Yeah

Hannes821 04-Feb-21 02:22 PM

Sure

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-21 02:23 PM

Deal with one thing at a time

Hannes821 04-Feb-21 02:24 PM

I just hope that interest is not too soon lost at actually getting a contemporary style in there. Okay.

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-21 02:25 PM

Later

Shall we deal with the Condensed Version first as there are only a few changes in it?

Hannes821 04-Feb-21 03:17 PM

Ok

Bellatrix 04-Feb-21 03:43 PM

oh one other thing is you need to read the comments- where there are no changes I've put the identical old an new sections in so you can verify they're identical. The comments next to each section hopefully explain it. Not sure this is the best way but it's what I came up with.

2

Robcbwilson 04-Feb-21 03:44 PM

I think it works fine

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 03:44 AM

OK, if there are no objections shall we start voting on the changes in the condensed version?

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 03:46 AM

I think we need to number each section on vote on it (or something similar) that was the bit I hadn't done cos drama. Probably overkill for the condensed version as the changes are minor. I guess we also need to start incorproating updates based on the Deis investigation into the main charter too which we could do in parallel?

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 03:48 AM

Ok, I can number them (may have to request write access) and then we vote on them. We do need to add a Deis section which perhaps we can do at the end of this first pass

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 03:52 AM

yes we need to be absolutely precise about changes.

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 03:55 AM

Oh yes, don’t worry we will be

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 03:55 AM

@Bellatrix could i have access to editing?

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 03:56 AM

It will be very very clear what has been changed and any change will require a vote for it to be implemented

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 03:57 AM

To make sure it doesn't get confusing can you send me changes and I can add them

if we have multiple people editing it's going to turn into a mess

I spent ages documenting every change so don't want to get to the point where we loose that level of detail due to multiple editors

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 03:59 AM

100%

If that happens people will lose confidence in what was done

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 04:01 AM

you can make copies though even if no write access? Google docs works the same as word doesn't it?

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 04:07 AM

this implies that i dont highlight changes. disappointing. I should work on other things for now.

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 04:09 AM

I'm not giving rob access either. But already we have one person getting ready to number and vote and you wanting to re-write section. Hence my reluctance to hand over write access to my version of it

If you wantto make a copy and totall re-write it go for it but it took me all of one weekend to pull together and I don't want it getting messed up

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 05:45 AM

Yes, we don't want to over complicate this

We are ONLY working on the DC parts right now

There is no desire or intention to rewrite it at the moment

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 05:50 AM

You don't even know what my suggestions are, but you are eager to moderate them by principle.

We all have the right to suggest things. That doesn't mean I destroy your previous work at all.

And the history is clearly visible in each google document.

Do whatever you want, what you say is not convincing.

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 05:51 AM

Hannes, we are only working on the DC parts right now (edited)

Which Bellatrix has already done

I am not sure how much more clearly I can spell that out

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 05:54 AM

Fine.

I just don't want to sit once again 3 nights on some suggestions only to be laughed about later again

Then we vote step by step and it's probably the minimum we have to do in the end. This is however not connected to Claire's draft as each point is separate, so the argument doesn't make sense to me.

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 06:00 AM

I don’t know why you turn everything into a massive drama fest. You can either copy the document, edit it and I can back populate the changes and merge them with anyone else’s suggestions or you can copy the document, edit it and merge anyone’s suggestions yourself.

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 06:01 AM

This is how I worked on the section that I updated (PR)

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 06:03 AM

I’m literally sat in a meeting where we’re discussing the master document we’re submitting to the FDA. Weirdly we’re not all allowed to go in and edit it as some massive free for all. Because it’s chaos.

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 06:04 AM

Totally. If multiple people work on multiple versions of the same document it really does descend into chaos

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 06:11 AM

You still use permission links. That's the issue. If people log in with their names and it's only us, I don't see the problem. We are clearly accountable and every comment or highlight is visible.

But as I said, apparently you determine the way it is being done and so it shall be.

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 06:13 AM

You haven’t thought it through. What happens if you make a change which directly contradicts a change someone else wants to make?

Do you go all wiki wars and keep editing each other’s changes? Do we have multiple versions and vote on each.

You can literally copy my document and edit it but I’m not letting you mess up the original.

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 06:15 AM

Which is what I just did for section 4

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 06:15 AM

How do we decide when to stop and vote? There’s literally tonnes of unresolved stuff.

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 06:17 AM

If we constantly try to over complicate things nothing will ever get done

All Bellatrix is doing is suggesting an entirely sensible way of getting this done

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 06:19 AM

And I don’t mind if Hannes wants to make a copy use that and do this whole process his way. But I don’t want an editing free for all on what I’ve already done.

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 06:20 AM

Totally

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 08:13 AM

okay, i have read the condensed version, and i agree to all suggested changes.

i also read the long version and consent. Minimal changes, nothing that could be objected in my eyes.

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 08:25 AM

okay, i make a copy.

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 08:34 AM

@Hannes821 what do you want me to do with the condensed version? Shall I label it up and make some sort of excel sheet we can vote on?

I guess we should wait until everyone has time to read and comment but as far as I remember it’s pretty dull and only removed DC changes.

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 08:45 AM

no, its so little changes, i personally am completely okay with every change done in both docs, so if you ask only me, we can vote on it, and i say yes.

i am more busy on structure and phrases. what you changed is all correct and good and non-controversial for me.

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 08:50 AM

Ok well I’m which case if @everyone reads them and feels similarly we could vote on the whole lot in one go. If anyone objects to certain bits we can go for the more complex line by line part. Then if it passes that’s our new charter and we can discuss and further changes using that as the basis?

1shoedpunk 05-Feb-21 08:55 AM

We need to do this line by line. The last time this came up there were just a ton of edits that were too hard to parse and I'm not going to vote for it that way.

This is how legislation works

In terms of making it clear where each edit is

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 08:58 AM

yeah she highlighted changes, it was only 5 or so per document so... okay.-

i also found my now 4 years old draft, and i am pretty happy about it, it was work.

1shoedpunk 05-Feb-21 09:03 AM

@Bellatrix can you ping what we're voting on?

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 09:05 AM

Yes when I’ve formatted it. Will be this weekend.

1shoedpunk 05-Feb-21 09:07 AM

Ok. Yeah, after this if anyone has amendments we can consider them in a separate vote

1

Right now it's mostly just cleaning up outdated language with no substantial change

1

Sol 05-Feb-21 01:15 PM

Yeah as this is right now, I'm fine with the changes

ub3rman123 05-Feb-21 01:47 PM

The two docs @Bellatrix linked above are the proposed changes? Can someone pin those?

Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 02:17 PM

Pinned a message.

Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 02:17 PM

Pinned a message.

I think Bellatrix is working on them still

But yes, those are the proposed changes

For round 1

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 02:20 PM

Oh I’m not touching them. The only thing I was going to do is add a, b, c etc to each part then we can vote on them. Although as a few people are ok with all the changes I think I’ll make that the first voting option then sub votes. So if we’re all cool with all of it it can pass straight away. If not we can pass certain bits and discuss the others. Does that sound sensible?

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 02:21 PM

Yes, sounds good to me

I am also in favour of all the proposed changes

ub3rman123 05-Feb-21 02:23 PM

Yep, these look pretty uncontroversial. I have no objections.

1

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 02:25 PM

Should we ping everyone so the whole Council knows there is a vote?

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 02:25 PM

Can do but I can’t do the excel sheet till tomorrow.

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 02:29 PM

OK, I will do it tomorrow once you are done with it

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 02:32 PM

Sorry all, tonight is wine and zoom nervous breakdown with colleagues night:)

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 02:38 PM

No worries, good luck!

1shoedpunk 05-Feb-21 05:10 PM

@Iliac Bay is Novac always like this? I'm genuinely concerned that he doesn't have our best interests at heart.

ub3rman123 05-Feb-21 05:11 PM

He's a good devil's advocate.

I agree with him in this case.

1shoedpunk 05-Feb-21 05:11 PM

The devil has enough advocates

What point do you agree on?

ub3rman123 05-Feb-21 05:12 PM

We don't need to issue a public statement, because 4chan and similar groups don't actually care about what we say or do.

They don't care about any of the allegations, they don't care about our writing. They care that we give them attention.

1shoedpunk 05-Feb-21 05:12 PM

I agree on that point, though he was arguing very strongly for one a few days ago

Specifically with a bullet point referring to lgbtq+ content and members in the mod

It's just that he's framing the 4channer's requests and gripes as reasonable

ub3rman123 05-Feb-21 05:13 PM

Didn't we already post internal statements to that effect already?

1shoedpunk 05-Feb-21 05:13 PM

Yes

In support of them

Like, this is sketchy as hell

] TheMightyNovac (Iliac Bay): @1shoedpunk @Dronon i agree that we shouldn't be playing into any drama of fervor(i mean, i've been saying that from the start after all) but these are some pretty serious allegations, and ignoring allegations is what inspired the original leaker to begin with

He's claiming that the original leaker did it because of allegations against Nipzo which is not even in the neighborhood of what happened

And optionally 4. Address the rumors that we somehow have an LGBT or progressive bias, that our writing is politically driven, and that our goals are anything but lore accuracy, authenticity, and quality. (For the record, I don't mean responding to the allegations that we defend LGBT people from harassment, obviously we do that and proudly, but rather to address the conspiracy that we defend them over both the quality and authenticity of the project, and other non-LGBT members.)

I just am seeing his comments and the result is a statement that doesn't oppose 4chan, but say that we agree with them on some basic level (edited)

ub3rman123 05-Feb-21 05:18 PM

Doesn't seem that way to me. He was considering a statement more along the lines of "We aren't going to be The Frontier with our writing because our writing staff is dedicated to quality above all else and we review everyone's work."

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 05:18 PM

I have to say I’m pretty uncertain uncomfortable with Novacs posts but I guess I need to deal with it.

1shoedpunk 05-Feb-21 05:25 PM

Is he the same Apuru-kun that comes up on google? Highly nsfw. No problem with people doing 18+ content but I'd think if they are they would be more concerned about 4chan coming after them?

1shoedpunk

] TheMightyNovac (Iliac Bay): @1shoedpunk @Dronon i agree that we shouldn't be playing into any drama of fervor(i mean, i've been saying that from the start after all) but these are some pretty serious allegations, and ignoring allegations is what inspired the original leaker to begin with

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 05:33 PM

this does read odd, i cant understand why he would say that, in context /in mind the strange accusations that people of a certain characteristic would impact our way of making these games.

in a negative way, even. which is just unfair

i guess - in doubt in favour of the case - we dont understand that he did have a different context in mind

there is no need to defend or even argue with 4chan people talking nonsense about Beyond Skyrim. They are just wrong.

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 05:37 PM

Honestly he’s being really insensitive.

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 05:38 PM

Very

I was personally very upset by all of this as I am sure many people on Cyrodiil were

ub3rman123 05-Feb-21 05:38 PM

Blunt, maybe, but his posts can be read charitably or uncharitably. He's trying to help. (edited)

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 05:38 PM

It is very unpleasant to see your work leaked and then picked apart

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 05:39 PM

And someone from an unrelated project concern troll for 4chan.

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 05:48 PM

it is, but i guess the warning to him was okay as a reaction as it really seems to be not intentional and will probably not repeat

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 05:48 PM

?

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 05:48 PM

didnt you talk with novac in dep leads about that just now?

i thought so

*directors. sorry

i still use the atmoran vocab for positions

maybe i never get used to it

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 05:50 PM

Oh that. I’m confused as to why a director has spent the evening trolling cyrodiil and elswhyr with who it wasn’t that big a deal really. And as for it not being a repeat, he’s done it all week. I’d personally be astonished if he doesn’t repeat it.

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 05:52 PM

oh, sorry then i really missed that.

thats unfortunate. Didnt i ask about novac being apuru kun earlier and wasnt apuru kun one of the first identities discussed on the leak? (i probably should stop talking about it anyways, being not 150% in the topic right now)

ub3rman123 05-Feb-21 05:54 PM

I strongly disagree with characterizing it as trolling. Take it at face value as he explained it: He didn't know it was such a personal thing for those who worked on Cyrodiil, and he has apologized for his statements made before now. I don't know how I'd react if IB was leaked, but hey, I was on the side of open-sourcing everything anyways.

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 05:55 PM

Let’s see. He’s not been very sympathetic at all so far. If it’s a genuine misunderstanding I’d expect him to be more sympathetic from now on.

But yeah. As a project that’s had it’s worked leaked it’s properly shit no matter how we try and pretend it’s not.

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 05:59 PM

i guess we need to spend more time with our team members and also consider inactivity rules etc. and recruiting checks, but this must happen at some point for big volunteer teams that just believe in the good faith of unknown recruits i guess.

i just hope its not such a damage.

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 06:00 PM

It’s already caused damage. We’ve already discussed siloing all the teams, music chat is locked to directors only etc. (edited)

Robcbwilson 05-Feb-21 06:01 PM

Elsweyr has also severely restricted GIT access now

To almost no one

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 06:01 PM

So it’s absolutely having an effect.

Even if I other projects who weren’t leaked don’t really get that (edited)

Hannes821 05-Feb-21 06:03 PM

i am personally very sorry to hear that, i can just renew my offer to do anything to support you, that i can

2

Bellatrix 05-Feb-21 06:05 PM

Getting novac to stop posting would be a good start but good luck with that!

Bellatrix 06-Feb-21 06:04 AM

Just getting round to making the voting form. Where do you want me to put it?

Hannes821 06-Feb-21 06:10 AM

Here or is a voting channel necessary?

Bellatrix 06-Feb-21 06:10 AM

well, I'll share a version first so you can check it's clear etc before we vote

1

Oh I meant where the document is physically located

Hannes821 06-Feb-21 06:11 AM

If there was a voting channel comments should be locked and we only have emojis so it's not cluttered Up again

Discussing here

Bellatrix 06-Feb-21 06:21 AM

OK - I've only done the condensed version so far. Is this clear and a good way to do it (added 2 example vote columns which I'll delete when we're good to go) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1deSqZTAgxqgDq9CHz5DJQNDBovQOEwHVC9oXggPZpwg/edit#gid=0

Google Sheets - create and edit spreadsheets online, for free.

Create a new spreadsheet and edit with others at the same time -- from your computer, phone or tablet. Get stuff done with or without an internet connection. Use Sheets to edit Excel files. Free from Google.

Bellatrix 06-Feb-21 06:35 AM

Whew! Need to double check my numbering but I feel for anyone who doesn't agree to all the full version changes as it's 66 separate votes if not

Hannes821 06-Feb-21 06:38 AM

thats what we need, i take number 34!

okay ignore me

Robcbwilson 06-Feb-21 06:42 AM

Looks clear enough to me

Bellatrix 06-Feb-21 06:45 AM

haha- I wouldn't vote yet hannes. I was thinking about changing the y to all on the full version to y to all or y to all and additionally approve the removal of the old preamble. but no sure if that unecessarily over complicates things

Hannes821 06-Feb-21 06:46 AM

okay

well either way. yes.

i am 100% sure that each of these changes are good for me, i checked them 3 times, and if we go a step further later, i am still very convinced thats positive for BS.

Bellatrix 06-Feb-21 06:49 AM

I'm currently adding in all the explanations for each sub section to the voting form. If we all vote yes to everything that's an hour or two of my life I'm about to waste

Hannes821 06-Feb-21 07:02 AM

Yeah it's absolutely good to be careful about it, don't misunderstand me, I just was very sure for myself

Bellatrix 06-Feb-21 07:03 AM

Yeah. I'm trying to be as transparent as I possibly can be. I mean I know I'm yes to both but I've had to read it all in forensic detail multiple times putting it together

OK - I'll keep it simple an go with the one yes option. If people know they're OK with it please feel free to vote whilst I'm still adding the sub sections

Literally all that is is adding the comments from the document to make it easier to see where to vote for each sub section if you need to.

Robcbwilson 06-Feb-21 07:09 AM

I have read it all multiple times so am also happy to vote yes to all

Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Bellatrix 06-Feb-21 07:23 AM

Pinned a message.

@everyone voting spreadsheet is done. Assuming you're happy with it, vote at will

With it being the voting system

Hannes821 06-Feb-21 10:29 AM

Is it relevant that this morning some guy in community server made a screenshot of a random topic in 4chan?

Or is it just normal

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 06-Feb-21 10:39 AM

Are the changes noted by the numbers in the voting doc?

Hannes821 06-Feb-21 10:47 AM

Yes

1shoedpunk 06-Feb-21 11:38 AM

Depends on who

Hannes821 06-Feb-21 02:49 PM

It's so quiet with closed server

How long will we continue submarine mode on community server?

It's almost like a lock down, fitting to the physical conditions in my place

Robcbwilson 06-Feb-21 02:51 PM

We opened up invites yesterday

Hannes821 06-Feb-21 02:53 PM

Oh! Land in sight

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:23 PM

@ub3rman123 this meeting, when can we have it and is it a council one. Drectors chat is really angry

I'm a bit confused as to how we discuss anything as everyone seems to be arguing about what the law actually is and none of us are lawyers.

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:24 PM

Eh, let's schedule it for a week from now or so. Give us time to get the facts together both of what happened, what the law is regarding DMCA, what we can and cannot claim, how it should be claimed, and how our response needs to be in the future.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:25 PM

I mean I'd be fine with 'lets never do this again just incase'

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 01:25 PM

I should also point out at this time that I was involved in Thingy's take down request

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:25 PM

I'd like to be solid on what we can do for DMCAs, and what our public response (if any) should be in the future, though. Best to have this written out. Not as a charter change or anything, but a precedent.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:26 PM

yeah

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 01:26 PM

A week? Hell no, this is happening today or tomorrow at the latest.

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:26 PM

If you'd like.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:26 PM

I don't think any of this was in bad faith but there dose seem to be a lot of confusion about if we own joint copyright or not so would be really useful for the future (not that any of us are getting leaked again :))

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 01:26 PM

We're being attacked

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:27 PM

I wanted to have some time for everyone to calm down, but if we think we'd collectively like to get it over with, I'm fine with that too.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:27 PM

This needs to be dealt with by the council

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 01:27 PM

There was absolutely no bad intent

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:27 PM

Oh, and a bit of verbiage on when we should be issuing copyright claims would be good too. Probably obvious "If it's material from the leak", but good to have it pinned down.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:27 PM

We generally don't all start screaming at each other

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 01:27 PM

Thingy acted and I assisted

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:28 PM

Sure, by the council. I do expect to be able to take some feedback from my team once we have it down though, and I'll make suggestions based on their suggestions.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:28 PM

Oh. I do that anyway

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:28 PM

Delegation makes the world go 'round...

Anyways, someone want to write up the list of questions and proposed answers? I can put a few together myself.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:35 PM

Im out. I'm still waiting for everyone to vote on the charter upddates I lost 2 weekends on

Plus I'd be fine with 'lets not DCMA again just to be safe' as an outcome.

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:36 PM

Wait, do we still need to vote on that? I thought my casual "It looks good!" was enough.

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 01:36 PM

We are changing the charter

We have to vote

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:36 PM

the one in the pins?

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 01:36 PM

Yes

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:36 PM

yep. link is pinned I tihnk. You just need to write yes in two boxes if tht's what you think

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:36 PM

Oh, terribly sorry, guess I missed that.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:37 PM

I'ts fine. I wasn't stoppy - the '2 weekends' on admin' was the takehome message

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:37 PM

I'm not on the list, should I add myself in there?

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 01:37 PM

I voted

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 01:37 PM

Yes please

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:37 PM

you should be. Errk yes if not. Maybe I'd lost the will after getting most of the waythrough the alphabet...

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:38 PM

Whew, I managed to add a column correctly on the third try.

I've added in my vote.

Probably worth throwing a ping for getting everyone else in? (edited)

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:39 PM

haha. can you imaging how man attempts it took to gt the numbering right and so far you're all being helpful and voting yes to everything so it's not needed anyway

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:39 PM

I mean, I can be more problematic if wanted. Lemme start checking for Oxford commas.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:39 PM

oh. I can do another. I assumed everyone was just reading it diligently cos it is a lot to read!

Ther was one weird point whre I corrected a typo deeza made and it was like a disturbance in the force!

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:40 PM

Yep, I see the ping from the sixth. Definitely managed to miss it.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:40 PM

It's fine we're all busy. I know firenight isn't around this week cos exams

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:41 PM

@Sage of Ice may not be readily available either.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:41 PM

TBH we could leve the vote up for a fortnight and it wouldn't matter

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:42 PM

I was going to suggest we make 'not voting for two weeks after initial proposal' an abstention but then it'd be another round of voting to do.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 01:42 PM

please no

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 01:42 PM

In serious business, this leaked to 4chan:

@Morrowind

That seems to be on one of your internal channels

I think that's the old thread they're referencing though

Can't be sure

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 01:47 PM

Yeah thats pretty old. Thank you for the heads up though.

Sol 08-Feb-21 01:47 PM

Likely another one of kagrenax's screens

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 01:47 PM

Could you link the thread in which it was leaked @1shoedpunk? (edited)

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 01:49 PM

https://boards.4channel.org/vrpg/thread/1292774

/vrpg/ - Beyond Skyrim Leak Thread - Video Games/RPG - 4chan

Beyond Skyrim Leak Thread - "/vrpg/ - Video Games/RPG" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of role-playing video games.

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 01:49 PM

Thank ye kindly

Heh, god they just seem so beaten down about it at this point.

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:53 PM

The lack of juicy/awful writing like they were begging for seems to be the #1 cause of lost interest. Almost like we aren't as bad as they'd hoped.

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 01:55 PM

"If its made by [slurs] that makes it bad!"

Digs around files No writing is implemented All there is is landscapes and good level design

"Ah! Well, nevertheless!-"

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 01:56 PM

They pivoted real quick to the tired old "Well they'll never finish anyways!"

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 01:58 PM

My favorite bit is them looking at all of Kothri's level design and claiming the reason its good is that it clearly wasn't made by an sjw [slur].

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:01 PM

I need to not read those threads. Some comments are normal then there's stuff like that @Rubaedo it's really quite upsetting to read.

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:01 PM

Generally the first rule of being trans we learn is never read the comments on anything

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:01 PM

Yeah, they got boring when they defaulted to 'never gonna release'. I've read that in thousands of variations, 4chan, come up with something new.

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:02 PM

You gotta grow a thick hide quick.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:02 PM

I don't think the focus is really on us as in Cyrodiil

The people who are targeted by 4chan are Black Marsh and Morrowind explicitly

We just ended up in the crossfire.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:02 PM

That's why I was so mad last Friday when people were trying to minimise what had happened. It's really really bad. God. BS is absolutely no fun at the moment. It's just one really gross drama after the other.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:02 PM

Same with Elseweyr

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 02:03 PM

Yes, they stole Cyrodiil and got Elsweyr as a "bonus"

Bellatrix

That's why I was so mad last Friday when people were trying to minimise what had happened. It's really really bad. God. BS is absolutely no fun at the moment. It's just one really gross drama after the other.

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 02:03 PM

I agree Bellatrix, it is horrific

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:03 PM

Yep, IB wasn't their target either and we happened to get lucky with the guy being incompetent.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:03 PM

I'm growing increasingly concerned that maybe Beyond Skyrim isn't completely lgbtq+ friendly

As a whole

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:04 PM

As I've said, we should probably make it clear to everyone involved that its a requirement of working here that you be able to act nicely.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:04 PM

There was real resistance to putting out something in support of lgbtq+ themes and members. The suggested statements were all "We don't support the leak and we strive to be lore friendly" which is worse than saying nothing

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:05 PM

But it's really hard to enforce. I mean Smart admitted he knew to hde it as does whoever leaked it

You can't police what people think only how they act on our discords

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:05 PM

Yeah I'm realistic about the limit of how much we can actually do

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:05 PM

The resistance was solely because it would instantly be reposted to 4chan as "hahah look at these scared SJWs". We foster a culture of acceptance among members and leaderships in any way we can.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:06 PM

Why be afraid of that leaking?

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:06 PM

Because it just prolongs it

ub3rman123

The resistance was solely because it would instantly be reposted to 4chan as "hahah look at these scared SJWs". We foster a culture of acceptance among members and leaderships in any way we can.

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:06 PM

I mean, whats the harm in them going "Hahah look at these scared SJWs?"

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:06 PM

I mean god knows we've posted that enough over the past 6 months what wth Tobi, Nipzo and Deis

If people don't get the message its bcasue they don't want to get the message

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:07 PM

Ignoring them gets this targeted internet harassment over with. If there's anyone on the project who doesn't understand that we are accepting and inclusive by this point, they won't get it.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:07 PM

That messaging isn't really for those people though.

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:07 PM

I agree that we shouldn't be doing anything publically, we don't want to exasperate the situation, but I think we need to be clear that 4channers making mean comments on their own site isn't something we're concerned with in and of itself. Just how it affects us here.

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:07 PM

Yes, exactly.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:07 PM

It's for the people who would otherwise see all this hateful stuff on 4chan and then look at their leads and then see us do nothing

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:08 PM

But presumably peole are doing things?

Me and roast personally contacted everyone on dungeons and interiors and checked they were OK

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:08 PM

I've talked to a couple members. I guess I made the big statement that leaked too.

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:09 PM

It's all buried by now, but I thought we did do a post when this kicked off on this server and others explaining that we're inclusive?

Yeah, that one.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:09 PM

That's something

I just feel like we shouldn't be completely passive against 4chan because it's not just 4chan

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:09 PM

Yep and we did one ltierally 3 weeks earleir about Deis and how if you were having problems contact someone you trust and we're a welcoming environment

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:09 PM

They represent transphobia, racism, and sexism but those ideologies are present in this project.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:09 PM

We have been doing this stuff

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:10 PM

There are members who support most of what 4chan said or did

Just maybe not their methodology

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:10 PM

Who though?/ As we jsut discussed the two people who leaked cyrodiil are smart ehough to hide it

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:10 PM

That's the frustrating part. I know we can't single these people out, but we can at least make this such a positive and open environment that they either change their minds or leave

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:10 PM

all you can keep doing is lead by example

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:10 PM

They weren't

We just missed the signs

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:11 PM

well Smarty tought he was and whoever di is

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:11 PM

I don't consider "ignoring a baseless accusation" to be making us appear any less inclusive. I'd be more worried when we start seeing anyone other than 4chan asking, and we can respond directly then.

(Especially when that accusation is that we're inclusive, the leaked chats are hilariously wholesome and well-written)

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:16 PM

That's technically not a baseless accusation. We are inclusive, it's just not the issue that specific website seems to think it is

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:17 PM

If I may make a suggest as someone directly in the sightlines: I really do think the absolute most we should do is an internal memo saying that this isn't okay, and that bigotry and its proponents aren't welcome on the project. That's all. If it gets leaked, it gets leaked. There's really very little they can do about a memo, and we haven't seen any targeted harassment yet, which leads me to believe it's unlikely that we will see any if we do. It voices support for vulnerable members if it weeds out one or two people who might have otherwise come on assuming us to be "based" then so be it. I doubt it would put anyone aside, but it at the very least puts out a hand to folks who might otherwise feel a little less comfortable.

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:17 PM

Okay, I'll be happy to repost to IB as well. Probably definitely someone else should handle the writing, since I'm awful at that.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:18 PM

Is this saying something more than the previous statement?

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:18 PM

I could write something up this afternoon if ya'll like

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:18 PM

@Rubaedo if you think it will help of course

Bellatrix

@Rubaedo if you think it will help of course

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:19 PM

I mean it wouldn't be earthshattering. This is more for the vulnerable members than the bigoted ones. Make it clear that this is intended to be a safe space for them.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:19 PM

But we have done multiple so ifhtere starts to be a perception we're not inclusive based on two bad actors who didn't behave that way on cyrodiil chat and openly admit to hiding it then I don't see how we fix that.

Because it's literally not fixable.

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:21 PM

Sorry to potentially derail but my fucking sides

My man didn't even play fucking SKYRIM

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:21 PM

Didn't Oblivion have a bunch of Orc racism too? At least for the Arena champion guy.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:22 PM

I can't help worry then abut 50% of 4chan spend waaay too much time fantasising about other peoples private lives. Elswhyr and furries were not getting a lot of love today. Plus they don't have a good opinion of anyone who mods. We're not normal apparently

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:22 PM

Literally every TES game from tes3 on has approached racial oppression to some degree

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:22 PM

Oh yeah, wood elves got racism in ES3 too.

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:22 PM

Yup

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:22 PM

Basically every race, now that I think about it..

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:25 PM

2:24 PM] Andrew [Cartogriffi]: I can't suggest a course of action in legal matters. I have some experience with DMCA take down notices submitted by mod authors to get unapproved uploads of their mods taken down. But I don't know how a video of a mod works in this situation.

So basically they can't suggest a course either way

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:26 PM

I quite like TES because it's pretty deep and no one comes out looking perfect. I think that's the whole message the developers are trying to get over. You look good or bad depending on which perspective the various narratives are bing viewed from. Like the stormcloack - fighting to free skyrim from oppression on the one hand, not loving the dark elves on the other. It's very morally ambiguous.

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:26 PM

In that case, I'd err on the side of caution in not issuing strikes, since we can't definitely say we'd have the right. Soundtrack claims are still good?

I'm iffy on 3d and 2d art for claims. I think if a lawyer really wanted to mess with us, they could claim it's reproduced via the proprietary graphics engine.

ub3rman123

In that case, I'd err on the side of caution in not issuing strikes, since we can't definitely say we'd have the right. Soundtrack claims are still good?

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:27 PM

I'd be fine with that. Have no opiniion on music cos this is waaaay outside my area of exprtese

ub3rman123

I'm iffy on 3d and 2d art for claims. I think if a lawyer really wanted to mess with us, they could claim it's reproduced via the proprietary graphics engine.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:28 PM

We'd need a lawyer. We do some of this at work and usually there's a comprehensive agreement about who owns what and who's granting a licence to whom and jsut becasue you use other peoples software or knowhow doesn't mean they own it. But I just fill in the science part.

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:28 PM

@1shoedpunk Good to see that we would have standing for takedown requests on actual asset uploads, though.

Yep, I'd say if we enter into "We need a lawyer" territory, it's best to.. well, not enter that territory and pursue other methods.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:35 PM

@1shoedpunk we probably ought to avoid directors chat till we have a consensus here

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:36 PM

I don't want to encourage anyone to issue a DMCA complaint that could carry legal consequences until we have that.

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:36 PM

I concur

Let's not pick fights like this

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:37 PM

I'm not going to pretend that the charter is completely imaginary and doesn't have any legal value as a document

That's just nuts. We created it because we needed a legal backbone to the project.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:38 PM

Well, we don't know it does for sure until it's tested in a court of law

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:38 PM

And I really don't want to test it in a court of law.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:38 PM

I don't think 4channers are going to bring this to court

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:38 PM

haha. we ca't afford it for a atart

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:38 PM

To who would they complain to?

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:39 PM

It's not 4chan, it's Microsoft who see people issuing DMCA complaints on a game they own.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:39 PM

They don't own Skyrim yet

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:39 PM

Whoever owns Skyrim, it's not us.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:39 PM

Which is wheere it gets complex. I'm farily sure anyone eropean co-owns anything they've submitted

but we'll never find out for sure

can we not just agreeto avoid DCMA on vidos t obe sure

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:40 PM

I will continue to put in DMCA requests if those are the only option to take down.

I won't let that stand.

Sorry

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:40 PM

@1shoedpunk Mathy is very deluded as it comes to how internet conduct and law works in general. He's also monstrously stubborn and absolutely never going to back down on anything he says. We keep him on as he makes an extremely consistent stream of high-quality assets and remains very technically proficient. I strongly advise here and now that if he gets in a... mood... just leave it. Unless he is specifically harassing someone or otherwise breaking conduct, he is not worth arguing with.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:40 PM

we can get torrents taken down by saying we didn;t authorise the upload

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:41 PM

He gave me a long monologue the other day on how "I wouldn't be targeted for this stuff if I hadn't let anyone know that I'm trans." and that I shouldn't give out "personal information over the internet like that." He's basically living in the 90s still.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:42 PM

That's not living in the 90's that's transphobic

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:42 PM

It just doesn't seem like a hill worth dying on. The aren't an official channel, won't get many views. The mainstream skyrim youtubers won't touch a leaked mod with a barge pole becasu they don't ned that kind of grief. Some torrents we can gettaken downwithout a copyright claim an some torrent hoters don't care so the mod will always be out there

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:44 PM

It's bigger than that, though. Between Albuquerque, that person in community chat saying that other groups have latched onto harassing us, and the fact that more than one poster in that thread expressing racist and transphobic views is still with Beyond Skyrim. I have heard rumors for months about people like this targeting the modding community.

How do we know we're not one week away of being the next gamergate target?

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:45 PM

I don't think we can, and even if we launched an all-consuming witch hunt, it wouldn't make it any better.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:45 PM

It would make it worse TBH

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:45 PM

We can make where we stand clear

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:45 PM

Best we can do is foster the right atmosphere and culture and attract good people.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:46 PM

And public - to others in the community

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:46 PM

We have. Multiple times and we will continue to do so

And how do you know Alberquirque is a real thet not some idiots making a server thinking they're all edgy. It's jsut a rumor it could be either.

1shoedpunk

How do we know we're not one week away of being the next gamergate target?

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:47 PM

This is a big reach. Again, I, and people like me, are the primary targets in this. I'm saying take this slow. Getting worked up is more likely to escalate things and put us more in peoples crosshairs than anything else.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:47 PM

If we ever get screenshots of who's on it and they're acting as BS members then tha'ts a stright ban. Right now we seem to be imploding over 2 confirmed leakers and a lot of rumours

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 02:48 PM

I agree 100% Bellatrix

It does feel like we are imploding

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:49 PM

Discord among our leadership is more damaging than anything 4chan can do.

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:49 PM

Yeah. I'd rather just get back to working on the project first and foremost if we can.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:49 PM

I'm 50:50 navmeshing and posting

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:50 PM

I raised the same concerns weeks before the 4chan thread

It keeps getting worse because we have done nothing substantial to oppose them

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 02:51 PM

It's only been a few weeks, though. I don't think I'd expect to see a shift or change that fast.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:51 PM

Likewhat? Seriously. Give me screenshots of people who have broken our rules and we can ban them

1shoedpunk

It keeps getting worse because we have done nothing substantial to oppose them

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:51 PM

There's nothing we can do and at some point we need to accept there are just some limitations attached to being in a situation like this.

Rubaedo

There's nothing we can do and at some point we need to accept there are just some limitations attached to being in a situation like this.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:52 PM

Yep

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:52 PM

At some point we need to be willing to just go on the defensive.

Retribution isn't worth it.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:52 PM

And also 1shoe. Yure not really listening to the person with diret relevent expriance of what its like to be targeted

On a selfish not I don't want 4 chan coming for us becasue I like being female and modding

I've also been more open with who I am than I should have been. Don't make us a target by turning it into a macarthyesque witch hunt

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:54 PM

I'm not going to go on the offensive. I will report any videos or streams I see as myself. If there's any legal risk, which I really don't believe there is, I'll take that on myself.

1

It's not a false claim, I believe it's a true and accurate claim based off their guidelines for reporting.

I'm not looking to escalate

That's the bare minimum

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:55 PM

But you're also advocating we make public postings which will directly bring us to the attention of people who aren't very tolerent. You seem to be tru=ying to rush us into things that will do more harm than good

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:56 PM

I don't mean to suggest making public posts in that sense

I mean, we should reach out to the leadership of other modding teams and try to oppose this as a community.

I probably wasn't very clear.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:56 PM

That's very different to what you said

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:56 PM

Yes

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:56 PM

Becasue you scared the crap out of me and Im not the main target

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:56 PM

That was what I was trying to get us to do weeks ago though

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 02:57 PM

I thought you had done?

I mean again, you don't go bluring it ut offically, just get incontact with other leads whenever they need a heads up. We do it on here all the time when another team's member is causing drama.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 02:58 PM

I said something right after the thread came out

I'm just afraid that there isn't enough support in the modding community for that

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 02:58 PM

I have a contact in the Apotheosis leadership, but they're currently in a bit of a crisis at the moment (They're Lebanese, the Beirut Explosion really took a number on their situation) so I'd really prefer not to bug them if at all possible.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 03:23 PM

Are we against 4chan or just the leaker?

Serious question

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 03:23 PM

We're against people on 4chan who attempt to have our content leak and denigrate us in public.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 03:23 PM

Because the leaker would not have a platform without 4chan

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 03:23 PM

We are not against 4chan as a platform.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 03:25 PM

I kind of am. I mean the thread this morning was amtisemitic amongst anti everything we've already covered

I'm not cool with BS using it as a PR platform

Not if stuff like that isn't moderated which it doesn't seem to be?

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 03:36 PM

How are we going to move forward from all of this?

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 03:37 PM

Errrm wel I'm planning on muting the serer for a week and seeing if there's a project lef then

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 03:38 PM

Yes, sadly at the moment that seems like a good plan

It feels like we are ripping ourselves apart

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 03:39 PM

Actually, I have an idea. Might be a little cheesy, but could be worth a shot.

Some kind of pan-project group project or contest? Share a bunch of internal builds or writing or sommit with each other, get some opinions on each other's work? I could honestly be a really nice breath of fresh air to have some folks get to peak at what everyone else is doing. Working on the same stuff can be exhausting.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 03:44 PM

I wanted to do something like that in January but the leak happened and I kind of forgot about it.

Rubaedo

Some kind of pan-project group project or contest? Share a bunch of internal builds or writing or sommit with each other, get some opinions on each other's work? I could honestly be a really nice breath of fresh air to have some folks get to peak at what everyone else is doing. Working on the same stuff can be exhausting.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 03:44 PM

yes!

love it

someone (can't remember if it was pan project or cyrodiil only) did a wacky creatures contest ages ago

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 03:44 PM

I was referring to the DMCA issue that we have (do we do it or not)

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 03:45 PM

Oh. Well I think we really need to not be doing them until we're really clear it's OK. Sorry 1shoe but I think you've lost perspective on this which isn't like you

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 03:48 PM

What's a bigger threat to the project, bigots or calling them out?

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 03:49 PM

Errm I think you're speaking from a position of privilage

The biggest threat to the project is not dealing with it in a helpful way

you're going in all guns blazing

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 03:50 PM

This isn't just an isolated incident and it's incredibly frustrating trying to get anyone to take action within that context

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 03:53 PM

We need to put this issue to bed and move on

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 03:53 PM

Put what issue to bed?

Because as I see it, we're just going to completely ignore the bigotry of the 4chan thread

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 03:54 PM

The DMCA argument to start with

I am not honestly sure what we can do to 4Chan

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 03:55 PM

As Ive said before, there's nothing we can do.

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 04:17 PM

I locked Dept_Directors.

I'm going to leave it locked for the next hour at least, unless someone objects.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 04:19 PM

year?

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 04:19 PM

Can we discuss the moderation changes in here or are we just going to go back to it when it's reopened?

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 04:19 PM

I would prefer to discuss it here.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 04:19 PM

Because I agree that adding warnings for red flags is a good idea but we should standardize the way we do it

Like, have a list of examples as to what would bring a warning

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 04:51 PM

keeping directors chat locked isn't a bad idea if it's overheating anyway (edited)

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 05:08 PM

Haha. My typing is even worse tonight. Two edits to even get a coherent string of words together.

Rubaedo 08-Feb-21 05:09 PM

Get some rest, I can tell you're exhausted.

ub3rman123

I'm iffy on 3d and 2d art for claims. I think if a lawyer really wanted to mess with us, they could claim it's reproduced via the proprietary graphics engine.

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 05:34 PM

its intellectual property of the artist for its shape and its design, not because of being exported in a certain fashion.

1shoedpunk

That's just nuts. We created it because we needed a legal backbone to the project.

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 05:35 PM

agree.

Any project information is confidential, thats the nature of what we do and can easily be argued about. it is our choice what is being published. And we represent the community which holds the rights over the builds.

Bellatrix

we can get torrents taken down by saying we didn;t authorise the upload

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 05:37 PM

exactly

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 05:37 PM

Can we leave directors chat locked for the time being? On DC we didn’t even have one. If we can it would be good to agree how we go forward in here which has been working really well recently.

Both in terms of how we handle takedowns / what to do in future but also the other thing that came up is what if anything to do to make it not happen again. If we do need to tighten up of moderation etc. I don’t think that will be resolved on directors chat and it’s also actually a council issue anyway.

Larrian (Morrowind) 08-Feb-21 05:40 PM

I think locking dept directors would piss them off even more

Rubaedo

This is a big reach. Again, I, and people like me, are the primary targets in this. I'm saying take this slow. Getting worked up is more likely to escalate things and put us more in peoples crosshairs than anything else.

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 05:40 PM

But i also understand the necessity to trigger some de-escalation mid term, and as 1shoed says, remain clear about our identity as inclusive and open community.

Larrian (Morrowind) 08-Feb-21 05:40 PM

But I agree it might be good for now

1shoedpunk

I'm not going to go on the offensive. I will report any videos or streams I see as myself. If there's any legal risk, which I really don't believe there is, I'll take that on myself.

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 05:42 PM

i can understand you!

its true that we need to have a common stratgey together before a broad debate makes it impossible for us to agree. i guess. if that is happening; if the dep director conversation makes it harder for us to sort our thoughts. But, its understandable that they also have their opinions... so thats not the best solution.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 05:49 PM

Well what’s supposed to happen is we represent our teams on here but I get the impression that doesn’t happen in practise?

I mean like for that charter vote did anyone other than me (for Roscrea) even ask their directors what they thought was best as a team?

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 05:52 PM

1) anyone who didnt vote should vote on Bellatrix doc pinned (charter update) 2) i really think that asking to take down leaked material without any debate in public is very legitimate and i second it 3) we can think about if we find another public statement like rubaedo wanted to write up; and further practise an open and inclusive community spirit 4) we can consider this "exchange pan bs move" for sure, yes its fresh air, and maybe its also a good idea to focus on good news. 5) finding the leakers will take some time. Maybe consider how you can talk with your members in a rotation from time to time on voice? 6) The underlying conflicts for dep leads channel need to be defused, everyone there is a key player in our community and we need them, and we need them behaving in a way that we can all be professional and trustworthy with each other. (edited)

*dep directors of course, excuse atmoran vocab

maybe the team leads can talk with their dep directors if they know them best to be de-escalating

for the charter vote, you say ask our teams?

@Bellatrix no i dont think so, because if its just a formality of changing names (removing DC effectively) it has zero effects on them

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 05:55 PM

I do this all the time for anything non confidential.

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 05:56 PM

so this needs a careful and responsible evaluation if it affects them and the team or not

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 05:56 PM

I thought we treated everything here as confidential

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 05:56 PM

i sure can ask them, but then i also need to ask you if i am allowed to share your version in my management channel

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 05:56 PM

Just a heads up that it was changing we were voting on it it was all minor stuff so I was planning on voting yes if anyone wanted more info or ask then let me know.

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 05:56 PM

exactly, rob

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 05:56 PM

I’d never share DMs but why would you keep it secret that we were doing what endoc asked us to do?

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 05:57 PM

i dont see a necessity if we remove DC to ask, because for the team and BS nothing changes, it wouldnt be appropriate

its not a secret

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 05:57 PM

It's a fair point though

I voted yes without a second thought

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 05:57 PM

Yeah, I didn't ask my directors this round because there wasn't anything changing for their day-to-day activities, just grammar and DC removal.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 05:57 PM

In this case, yeah, it's fine, but would I have done that if it was a substantial change?

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 05:57 PM

yeah but how exactly would they be interested in his topic at all=

at some point you do have delegates to deal with specific subjects

like a pan bs formality

of course, as we have it in the charter, anything that affects them needs us to ask them!

and thats the case for any content decision for teams

by the way, so the dep directors chat is not locked yet?

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 05:59 PM

I guess it’s how much you see yourself as doing things on behalf of your team and how much you think you’re elected to do what you think is best on behalf of your team. From the. CharterI’d interpreted it as the former.

And yeah these changes are minor but I also mentioned that there might be a bigger overhaul so they had a heads up. Cos I’m on here are a representative of Roscrea not as me.

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 06:00 PM

you know, i have absolutely no issue with bringing anything before them, i trust my team 100%

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 06:00 PM

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 06:00 PM

even beyond the dev stuff

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 06:00 PM

This was just posted in the thread

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 06:00 PM

but is it leading anywhere

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 06:01 PM

But yeah from my perspective this is where we work out what we need to do and communicate it back to directors and wider team.

For how to move on from the leak.

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 06:01 PM

@1shoedpunk That's old, they've been throwing that shot around since the original post.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 06:01 PM

I'm just concerned because it's alongside a reference that implies we're all suspect

We have had reports from the community server over "vultures" looking into us because of this thread

ub3rman123 08-Feb-21 06:02 PM

4chan + baseless accusations, name a better combo

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 06:02 PM

I'm sorry but this is serious. It's very likely we'll be doxxed.

We've had people actually come to us saying that they've heard it's happening

This has been steadily escalating from rumors of a racist Discord server to the ama to the leak

Where is it going to go next?

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 06:04 PM

I don’t see how we can stop it if it’s going to happen and 4chan is anonymous. Do they really not moderate any posts?

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 06:05 PM

We can't really do anything about 4chan, but we can take it seriously here. We need to step up moderation but also we need to step up security, not just for us, but for the project

Enable 2fa, check privacy settings on Facebook, that sort of thing.

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 06:06 PM

OK. These seem sensible.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 06:07 PM

I already have 2fa set for my Gmail account, Discord, and I'm setting it now for Gitlab

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 06:08 PM

And making sure we moderate on here. I mean I’m not sure where smarty’s Nazi grandad post happened but it wasn’t moderated and no one flagged to me or 1shoe that it had happened. I guess sometimes stuff slips thorough but we could have done with knowing.

1shoedpunk

I already have 2fa set for my Gmail account, Discord, and I'm setting it now for Gitlab

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 06:11 PM

That all sound eminently sensible to me

Robcbwilson 08-Feb-21 06:20 PM

Also time limiting people’s GIT access so that has to be reapplied for each year

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 06:21 PM

I wondered about that. Would mean inactive members automatically lapse but doesn’t help with active ones who also decide to leak.

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 06:31 PM

and if you have given time windows for downloading at all?

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 06:31 PM

I checked with the person who said that vultures had gotten hold of this and he said it was being discussed on kiwifarms - a forum of people who are stalkers and doxxers

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 06:32 PM

you keep teaching me about the darkest holes on the internet i did never want to discover

not your bad of course

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 06:32 PM

I have found a couple messages from them about us, nothing more than the 4chan thread

Yeah, they are truly vile

They make 4chan look classy

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 06:33 PM

i mean some haters need that for their lifestyle

but the real meassures are all on our site, not there

so we shouldnt distract ourselves, too

talking with our teams, moderating, etc

Bellatrix 08-Feb-21 06:34 PM

Yeah. And if you’re me a refresher in basic internet safety.

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 06:36 PM

The forum is truly bizarre to me. They equally harass everyone, including people on opposite sides of a position

It's like it's designed to forment bigotry and generate a massive amount of white noise on the internet

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2016/07/kiwi-farms-the-webs-biggest-community-of-stalkers.html

Kiwi Farms, the Web’s Biggest Community of Stalkers

The prototypical virtual pillory.

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 06:44 PM

what is white noise? ahw i dont understand the language, gonna googke

*google

1shoedpunk 08-Feb-21 07:09 PM

static

Like, a level of background noise

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 11:04 PM

Thanks, I found it. Yes.

Like white light, containing a density of multiple level frequencies at once

It was always interesting in thermodynamics how electromagnetic radiation of different kinds behaved analogue

You could use optics to calculate specific acoustics or thermal radiation.

Because they all go back on the same states of elemental energy quantum steps.

In the matter

Hannes821 08-Feb-21 11:23 PM

The Planck constant, or Planck's constant, is the quantum of electromagnetic action that relates a photon's energy to its frequency. The Planck constant multiplied by a photon's frequency is equal to a photon's energy. The Planck constant is a fundamental physical constant denoted as {\displaystyle h}, and of fundamental importance in quantum mechanics. In metrology it is used to define the kilogram in SI units. Maybe you know about Max Planck. His work was very important, including for chemistry and relatively theory

Sorry. I got carried away

Woni 09-Feb-21 02:44 AM

Engineers can't talk about something without understanding it

1shoedpunk

I'm just concerned because it's alongside a reference that implies we're all suspect

Woni 09-Feb-21 02:52 AM

I agree, we should be careful about "recruits" in the near future who may want to infiltrate to leak / doxx. (edited)

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:08 AM

We do seem to have some agreed ways forward. Mostly around IT security, new members (we kind of have an unofficial pause on that for now). Should I set everyone's BSAssets access for 1 year?

The things that are less clear are what we can do if there's a leak. Personally I'm happy for us notto do DMCA takedowns just to be on the safe side but flag torrents etc where we can.

The other part I'm less clear on is moderation on here. I'm not sure if it was just because director chat had got so blooming bonkers before it was locked or not but the part where people were going bonkers about the idea of challenging behaviour that's specifically not allowed according to our rules really worried me. I mean this is directors chat, these are the people who set the tone of the projects the represent. So do they really think that or had it got to the point where everyone was just full on red-mist and screaming? (edited)

Robcbwilson 09-Feb-21 03:20 AM

I would recommend setting BSAssets access to one year (maximum) that way it becomes auto-cleaning.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:21 AM

If no one objects I'll make that this weekend's boring admin task cos I think you have to do it one at a time

Robcbwilson 09-Feb-21 03:22 AM

The behaviour in the Directors chat last night was shocking. I hope that it was just a case of mass hysteria because we simply cannot have leads behaving like that

Robcbwilson 09-Feb-21 03:40 AM

We should as members of the Council, remind our directors that they are ambassadors of their teams and BS and should always behave accordingly

If yesterday’s ridiculous behaviour had happened on the Outpost several people would have been banned

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:45 AM

On a relatedish note some of the external behaviour about the leak hasn't been ideal. We had a director from another province posting on 4chan under their own steam becuae they thought it would help, we've had a director from cyrodiil trolling the twitch streams, DCMA takedowns which happened without anyone knowing etc. I think we need to make it clear that you absolutely don't engage with stuff like that without the express permission of the leads on the province affected and the council being aware. Everyone was just randomly doing their own thing and adding to the chaos.

Robcbwilson 09-Feb-21 03:49 AM

I agree. I also apologise wholeheartedly for my involvement in the DMCA email from yesterday and assure you that it won’t happen again

Robcbwilson 09-Feb-21 05:04 AM

I think all your points are valid and we need to express those to Department Directors and also to our individual core teams (many people from Elsweyr are not on this server) that in the future, such behaviour is not acceptable (along with the arguing and disrespect shown in the Director Channel yesterday). This should be done using an agreed statement for avoidance of doubt (edited)

Robcbwilson

We should as members of the Council, remind our directors that they are ambassadors of their teams and BS and should always behave accordingly

Hannes821 09-Feb-21 07:12 AM

Exactly

Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Hannes821 09-Feb-21 07:12 AM

Pinned a message.

That is policy point six I suggest

We can remove the pin of course. Just to have it as a summary of the previous looooong debate

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:02 PM

Okay, another thing that needs covering.. @1shoedpunk We need to talk about your actions over the last few days. You made an implicit accusation against TheMightyNovac for having a dissenting opinion, and proceeded to start researching his username and calling it out in a chat that wasn't limited to only leads. If you have reservations or suspicions like that about people on my team, they need to go through me or Sage, not aired out in a chat with dozens of people. Your interactions with him have been unacceptable as a project lead, particularly what he took as an implicit threat to doxx him. If that wasn't your intention, I would like an apology to that effect. If it was, then I need an explanation and guarantee that is not how things will be handled going forward.

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 02:10 PM

We’re also concerned because this isn’t the first time something like this has happened. When we were asked to ban desi and we asked for the evidence against her (since we were not involved at the time and had no idea what was happening) immediately our integrity was questioned, which I found to be an overreaction at the time. Now it seems multiple leads on Cyr and MW are willing to think the worst of IB members by default (edited)

Neither ub3r nor I are comfortable with the pattern we’re seeing here

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:21 PM

Please don't take this as pedantry, this isn't my intention. I'm only trying to get a clear picture of exactly what behavior is being considered implicitly distrustful on our part so I can respond clearly and accurately. That said, could you give specific examples as to what you mean regarding Morrowind leads thinking the worst of Iliac Bay members?

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:21 PM

I won't apologize for searching Novac's alt nor for asking him directly about it. I asked Ub3r about it here first and when there was no reply I brought it to Novac directly in the Department Director chat. It was a public and easily identifiable part of his profile - accusations of doxxing are moot.

Desi again was moot, she was guilty and is gone

Evidence from the trial was provided to leadership

Meglos (Morrowind) 09-Feb-21 02:27 PM

I'm a little confused at MW leads being implicated in something here since as far as I've seen we haven't been closely involved with any of this

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:27 PM

Novac and Coronon's reaction to the possibility that additional moderation is akin to an authoritarian shakedown tells me all I need to know about their politics. There are real people on this project that had slurs thrown at them in the 4chan thread. I have no respect for people who see 4chan as anything but a cesspool.

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:28 PM

From what I saw, you weren't actually investigating any other people. Novac was singled out, and based on a difference in opinion on how we should handle the situation.

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:29 PM

He made a suggestion that we reassure 4chan that there aren't excess lgbtq+ themes in the project or writers on the team with that much influence

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:29 PM

You posted a single question in here with no ping toward me asking about it. I thought it was an inappropriate thing to ask so I didn't respond. Had I thought you'd proceed by making insinuations in the director's chat, I would have had a better response.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 02:29 PM

That's a misunderstanding as we did it wth directors chat knowing we were doing it. O friday we compared lists of everyone on the dev server and cyrodiils sever and began a process of elimination. People in the director dev server were specifically asking for this to happen.

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:30 PM

The fact that he drew adult cartoons and wasn't worried about 4chan finding that out was suspect

And again I just googled his screen name

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:30 PM

You're considering almost any trait to be suspect.

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:30 PM

Nothing about it was creepy or a violation

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 02:30 PM

Absolutely eveyone on the cyrodiil discord was looked at. Inclluding all the leads on cyrodiil. I didn't know we'd googled but I'd searced names on discord to see who was active etc and cross checked git access

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:30 PM

We aren't new to this

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:31 PM

From the very first day, people, with your egging-on, were piling on Novac for saying we needed to have some moderation in our reaction, to the point of outright accusing him of being one of the leakers.

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:31 PM

I'll remind you that we also identified Aikido in the same way

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 02:31 PM

That's when we were saying we'd probably never know. We maanged to rule out some people cos not on both servers no git acces etc. Although even that was dodgy becasue who knows if Smarty DMed the files so maybe the leaker didn't have git access.

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:31 PM

We identified Aikido with a multitude more hard evidence than there ever was to put suspicion on Novac.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 02:32 PM

I do specifally have a problem with how Novack behaved. I don't have a problem with anyone else.

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:32 PM

We didn't simply look at his reactions to posts and decide it wasn't the right kind of reaction.

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:32 PM

I'm sorry but yes, that's exactly what we do

Whether or not that's actionable depends on the reaction

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:33 PM

No, we absolutely do not do that. There is not to be any open accusation or the insinuation thereof based only on someone not expressing the right flavor of sympathy. Novac apologized, profusely, when he understood how his messages were taken.

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:34 PM

I must have missed that

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 02:34 PM

He apologised on Friday

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:34 PM

Yes, and I apologized for accusing him about the leak based off not enough evidence

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 02:34 PM

But I absolutely had a problem with how he behaved last week and I don't think me having a problem with it is unreasonable

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:34 PM

Yes exactly

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:35 PM

I've had a word with him on that, he understands that he needs to be careful in how he approaches these situations.

On the other hand, I need reassurance that people on the council will not attempt to start a witch hunt based on psychological examination of peoples' text posts.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 02:36 PM

I'm not. I think I've been very clear since it became perfectly obviosu on Friday that we couldn't narrow it down beyond ruling out about 3/4 of people on the cyrodiil server based on not matching other known things

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:36 PM

@ub3rman123 at the risk of derailing this conversation somewhat, would you be alright with me bringing up a point?

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:36 PM

Certainly.

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:37 PM

So, I've actually been writing up a message to you to try and talk about this, but seeing as this is the direction this conversation has gone I think it would probably be inappropriate to sit on it any further.

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:38 PM

I'm open to criticism, I think I'm relatively new at being a lead.

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:40 PM

That said, I've seen a few things that have been said in Iliac Bay which have been a part of the tension here and I was hoping to have a conversation about. Notably, it's difficult to ignore the fact that Novac and Coronan were the ones most shocked and horrified by the suggestion of us being keeping an eye on members who use extreme right wing talking points and dog whistles, given some of the things they themselves have said. Just a moment, let me fish out the screenshots I was given for context.

For example, Coronan's response to being told someone's grandparent was a Nazi was essentially "Yeah, back when men were real men."

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:42 PM

Yes, the concern there is that it turns into 'thought police'. We need to be careful with our atmosphere, but we also need to not turn into paranoia.

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:42 PM

Or the two of them joking suggesting inviting Morrowind leadership to a DM and saying slurs until we leave.

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:43 PM

This looks like their usual jest. They're edgier than most, but I seriously don't consider it harmful.

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:43 PM

Are you kidding me?

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:43 PM

And the fact that you seem to be entirely supportive of this is the biggest concern in my mind.

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:43 PM

I still maintain that conversation with Aikido doesn't indicate much. My grandfather fought in WWII, didn't make him a Nazi either.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 02:43 PM

'gamer words' errm isn't that say racist misogonistic stuff until someone is forced out?

I mean I know I'm a granny but I'm fairly sure that's what it means

ub3rman123

I still maintain that conversation with Aikido doesn't indicate much. My grandfather fought in WWII, didn't make him a Nazi either.

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:44 PM

Aikido says in that screenshot his grandfather fought for the axis.

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:44 PM

Interpret that the other direction, and they're mocking the people who do act like that. They aren't acting like that.

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:44 PM

But they are

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:44 PM

Yes, the Axis is Germany. There was a draft.

I still have his card for that.

ub3rman123

Yes, the Axis is Germany. There was a draft.

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:44 PM

And the response to it should be pity, not "Yeah, when men were strong."

ub3rman123

Interpret that the other direction, and they're mocking the people who do act like that. They aren't acting like that.

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:45 PM

I'd also like to say, doing something ironically is, in fact, still doing that thing.

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:45 PM

I recognize that we're an international team and that some people were on other sides during different wars, but the problem is the admiration of it

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 02:45 PM

For the record, the reason Coronan and Novac jest about MW that way is because of the circumstances involving my “encouraged” retirement from MW back during the heightmap incident

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:46 PM

That was also a piece of core evidence that got Aikido kicked

Sage of Ice

For the record, the reason Coronan and Novac jest about MW that way is because of the circumstances involving my “encouraged” retirement from MW back during the heightmap incident

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:46 PM

Sage, surely you've spoken to me long enough to realize that we're an entirely seperate team with entirely different leadership.

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:46 PM

Thought it helped us identify him more than acting as a reason to kick him on its own

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 02:46 PM

Should they do it? Probably not. But to take that at face value and as proof of their real feelings towards MW is just wanting to be suspicious (edited)

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:46 PM

"Love the warrior, hate the war" is a common saying. You can admire someone and still hate what they were involved in. It's not a relevant line of discussion.

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 02:46 PM

I realize that and they realize that.

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:47 PM

The post of Aikido talking about his grandfather was the weakest part of the evidence chain and I don't think it should have been included at all except for the info on his typing style.

I don't believe edginess or political views are a good indicator for 'is this person suspect in leaking our files'.

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:48 PM

The issue is that this represents a pattern of behavior on Iliac Bay which has resulted in attracting multiple members who considered it appropriate place members of other projects, especially queer members, in dangerous positions which can attract harassment.

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 02:48 PM

I hard disagree with that

There is no “pattern of behavior” on IB

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:49 PM

I don't see how that happened outside of Aikido, who was on multiple teams, not just IB.

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:49 PM

So what chat room is the nazi talk from?

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 02:49 PM

Two members out of how many is not representative of everyone else

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:49 PM

Where is it appropriate discussion to joke about saying slurs until people leave?

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 02:49 PM

And plus smarty I guess when he was there, but he wasn’t just on IB

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:50 PM

This is not the first time screenshots from the Morrowind Dev server have been leaked to 4chan, I thought you were aware of this.

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:50 PM

Not by anyone with a relation to IB?

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 02:50 PM

How do screenshots leaked from MW implicate IB?

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:51 PM

Because the only person we had any lead on at the time was a member of Iliac Bay at the time.

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:51 PM

What person? I'm not clear on which incident this is.

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 02:52 PM

Ok, at the time? Is this still the case?

And yes who is this

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:53 PM

Our only lead at the time was JohnP, then Kagranax. We didn't feel the evidence against him was sufficient to be worth bringing up with the council, but the fact remains that whenever screenshots or information is leaked to 4chan, they mention that Iliac Bay is "based" and encourage harassment against members from my teams. (edited)

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 02:54 PM

So because smarty said IB is “based” you’re willing to believe him over us?

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:54 PM

Was Kagrenax on IB? I genuinely don't remember. And I believe everyone in here has stated before how much 4chan's opinion on anything matters.

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 02:54 PM

I still don’t know why he said that for the record

We already have LGBT stuff planned that he clearly must have missed

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:56 PM

How is the discussion in the screenshots okay? I genuinely don't see how you could justify that. If people joke around about that kind of stuff on Cyrodiil they would be warned at the very least.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 02:57 PM

Errm derailing it a bit. A lot ofthe dramer in the directors server has been novack and conan. And reading those chat logs I do genuinely have a problem with the language conan is using in IB chat

And the lack of a bollocking

unless that's cut out of the screenshots

that's nuts

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:58 PM

Not sure what it's worth, but I missed the 'gamer slurs' postings and would have said something there. I'd be happy to bring this up with them to make sure our attitude is correct when talking about other provinces.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 02:58 PM

that would be really good

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:58 PM

I'd say it's worth something

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 02:58 PM

Ive told them both to be more aware of what they’re saying, especially after last week

So that’s definitely been cut out

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 02:58 PM

I think it explains some of the stuff in directors chat. They don't seem to think it's a big deal

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 02:58 PM

Clearly there isn't anything I'm capable of saying that would be willing to convince you to change how you operate or treat discussion within your project, so I won't push for that. At this point I'm content to say that I find this behavior, and your defense of it, concerning. It's difficult to remain on friendly terms with a project when multiple members within consider so-called "edgy humor" like this harmless, when it does actively harm a great number of people, including members of our own teams.

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 02:59 PM

You’re also looking at what, a couple screens? To imply this is the normal standard at IB is farcical

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 02:59 PM

@Rubaedo As I've said before, I'm open to criticism, and you can convince me. I missed those postings and need to make things more clear on IB.

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 02:59 PM

This isn't a couple screens, they are one data point of behavior

And they aren't all the same day, are they?

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 03:00 PM

Where are the others then

Sage of Ice

You’re also looking at what, a couple screens? To imply this is the normal standard at IB is farcical

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:00 PM

And what's gone down in directors chat over the past fortnight. I realise I'm probably seeing the highglights btu I also know for a fact that you can google my entire discord and not find me saying I'll gamer someone out of any team

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 03:01 PM

I don't think the point of this is to make accusations to get Novac or Coronan banned.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:02 PM

No

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 03:02 PM

The point is that we as a community need to step up moderation so our Discord servers aren't indistinguishable from /v/

1

Sage of Ice

You’re also looking at what, a couple screens? To imply this is the normal standard at IB is farcical

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 03:03 PM

Sage, I absolutely have no idea what to say at this point. I'm not a member of Iliac Bay myself, and the only reason I felt compelled to bring this up is because I have had members of my own teams mention that incidents like this had occured and they felt uncomfortable. Members who I know are very uncomfortable being put in the spotlight, and thus chose to remain anonymous. I was hoping to do this privately, but given the fact that you and Ub3r have since decided to make this a broader public concern here I felt like it would be inappropriate to do it in a back channel. (edited)

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 03:04 PM

Fine then. I can easily see where this is going, and clearly you all think you’re in the right to moderate and judge our entire team because one member plays devil’s advocate more than he should and another likes to be edgy. To treat the rest of IB like this and to insinuate we’re all right wing extremists I find just as deeply insulting as you seem to find our questioning your conduct.

And for the record, I am gay. Don’t even try to hold that out over me or act like I don’t understand what being terrorized because of that is like. I am well aware.

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 03:08 PM

So, quid pro quo? We on Iliac Bay will make an effort toward recognizing our shortcomings in dealing with other provinces and cut down on edgy jokes. In return, I need Iliac Bay to not be treated with what's become automatic suspicion and distrust these last couple of weeks.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:09 PM

I shouldn't single people out but as far as I'm concerned the problem seems to be Nocak and Conan. I don't want them banned but I also don't like the fact that the directors chat stuff when the leak broke was dismissed as me being mad but then screenies from IB appear suggesting I'm not mad

And it's possibly jsut a getting used to BS not being a call of duty like environemnt so it's a clash of styles

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 03:11 PM

I think what's important is that we don't lump in slurs with edgy jokes. Edgy jokes are funny when they're not punching down.

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 03:11 PM

I'll be talking to them as a part of this.

1

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 03:11 PM

I think that we need to specifically engage more here.

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 03:11 PM

Personally, I had read the "gamer" thing as aimed at the people who talk like that, not their victims.

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 03:12 PM

That's a misreading

But fine

I mean

It's not going to be all sorted out and fixed today

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 03:12 PM

I'm glad we had the conversation, so we can collectively know what needs improvement.

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 03:12 PM

But I think that's a good first step

That's my opinion

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:13 PM

And also, whilst we we're being frank I think some of the stuff 1shoe said last night in directors chat stepped over the line too

But it never should have got to that point

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 03:14 PM

Yes, we as leads need to be the most cognizant of how we behave when things are getting heated. I don't have a great answer on how last night should have been handled.

1

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:14 PM

Lock the server an hour earleir

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 03:14 PM

Honestly I apologize for being slow to do it.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:14 PM

And whne people say members of your team are being jerks listen to them and stop it the next time

Robcbwilson 09-Feb-21 03:15 PM

If leads see members of their teams behaving like that then have a quiet word with them

To calm the situation down

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 03:16 PM

As I’ve said, I already spoke to them about the events over the last week, which is conveniently not in the supplied screens that I can see

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 03:16 PM

I was slow in reacting to that because I wanted it to calm down from both sides, and I felt it would've been unfair to tell Novac to just take it, since I don't really have authority over everyone else. That was probably the wrong way to go, and I'll be more proactive in the future.

Sage of Ice

As I’ve said, I already spoke to them about the events over the last week, which is conveniently not in the supplied screens that I can see

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 03:16 PM

I apologize, this was all I was given. I wasn't aware you spoke with them.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:16 PM

I've raised his behaviour a fortnight ago (edited)

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 03:16 PM

I’m also a medical student. I can’t monitor every thread in IB 24/7. I wasn’t even aware of the nazi thing until someone pointed it out during smarty’s banning

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:17 PM

I don't know if it would have changed anything. we'd have probably read a bit more into one weird chat about how to refer to women earlier the week before he leaked the mod but but it would probably just have caused it to leak a few days earlier (edited)

Sage of Ice

I’m also a medical student. I can’t monitor every thread in IB 24/7. I wasn’t even aware of the nazi thing until someone pointed it out during smarty’s banning

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 03:18 PM

None of us are able to monitor everything 24/7, I was hoping it would be clear that I was bringing this up as a concern, not a demand. Again, I apologize for making you feel otherwise.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:23 PM

If it helps, Thingy and Roast are getting a talking to about not being so impulsive and more lead like when it comes to dealing with the leaks. We don't need 'get in the sea' posts from devs on dodgy twitch streams when the next leak happens.

1

Robcbwilson 09-Feb-21 03:25 PM

That seems entirely fair and appropriate

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 03:29 PM

So I’m still in clinic and won’t be out for a while

I want to apologize for getting upset a little while ago, I shouldn’t have, but this isn’t the first time I’ve felt IB’s been treated poorly or marginalized by the other teams, so I’m probably overly sensitive to that

I’ll be on later, but I do want to say I’m concerned by the turn this has taken

I know I’m not going to get a name, but I’m concerned that this is happening while we still have known leakers on the loose, and that this feels like someone trying to destabilize BS

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:34 PM

I can't work out if it's that or if it was two idiots (one of whom we don't know) and then we've collectively destabilised BS by going bonkers over it

Us all calming down is gonna rule out the latter though

ub3rman123 09-Feb-21 03:35 PM

I have been saying I'm concerned that internal finger-pointing is doing more damage than 4chan is capable of. We've got to keep a good working relationship!

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:35 PM

Yep

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 03:36 PM

Same

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:36 PM

It's really hard right now. I do think the cross province thing that got suggested yesterday is a good idea

Sage of Ice

I know I’m not going to get a name, but I’m concerned that this is happening while we still have known leakers on the loose, and that this feels like someone trying to destabilize BS

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 03:36 PM

I do think that's giving them a bit too much credit. If anyone can destroy us its us, I don't think we'd really need any help to pull an ouroboros.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:36 PM

And there's something in the charter about assuming best intentions. I think many of us in here have stuggled with that a bit this week

But that's the problem with the leak. It's so insidious even if you're trying not to it easy to get a bit paranoid.

This is probably too frank but when I was complaining about Novack and getting dismissed. A tiny voice did go 'well this is weird' I'm sure IB isn't based and its just some 4chan creep, but because you've read it plants a tiny seed of doubt which you then firmly quash becasue yo've worked alongside the IB leads for years. Then I was questioning if I was maybe overreacting about Novack, but I don't think I was and then you start questioning what is and isn't a proportionate response by everyone (including myself). I think it's the same when you said 'this is the first time I've felt IB under attack'. You wern't but it felt like that. It's because we're all wondering who the leaker is, what it means is it just one idiot or is something going on, if so who and you jsut chase roud in circles

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 03:41 PM

It's also difficult to assume the best of people when the language they use is similar to the people we're opposing, whether that's intended to be edgy or not

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 03:52 PM

We also need to be concerned about continued outside threats. This kiwifarms thing is concerning.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:52 PM

See maybe I'm naieve but I don't thin kti is

1shoedpunk 09-Feb-21 03:52 PM

It would be if they have a thread on us but I haven't found one yet, just a couple messages.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 03:53 PM

The ony way people can ge to us is through the outpost which is well moderated nd can pause new people joining and through emails to join the project which we can vet

Robcbwilson 09-Feb-21 03:57 PM

We can shut the Outpost very quickly and the moderation team is brilliant

It takes a few seconds to revoke all invites

1shoedpunk

We also need to be concerned about continued outside threats. This kiwifarms thing is concerning.

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 04:27 PM

It's worth mentioning that kiwifarms is a MUCH bigger concern to me than 4chan ever was. Kiwifarms are infamous for doxxing and SWATing people they target, especially trans people.

4chan is more of a disorganized chatroom where people shout slurs at eachother ad nausium. Kiwifarms is much more organized and unfortunate.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 04:47 PM

OK - do we need to do anythig more than be vigilant in the outpost and applications and keep a discreete eye on the website>

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 04:51 PM

I'm absolutely not one to comment on what we should be doing to find the leaker(s), I've genuinely got no idea where to start. Beyond that, we've all already commented about being more careful about who we let onto the project and to keep an eye open for red flags, be willing to talk things through more with members who seem to be upset, etc.

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 04:54 PM

Oh no I meant about kwilofarms if you’re more worried about that than 4chan.

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 04:54 PM

Oh god that Ive no clue about

Yeah I'm flying blind in regards to that

Bellatrix 09-Feb-21 04:55 PM

I just didn’t want to dismissing it if you think it is something. But I can’t think of anything more than moderate the outpost like the mods do anyway and be super careful about recruits which we were doing anyway cos of 4chan.

Rubaedo 09-Feb-21 05:01 PM

Yeah, I'm more thinking we just need to be careful with our data/information and aware of it as a threat. I don't know if there's really anything to be done beyond that.

ub3rman123

Yes, the concern there is that it turns into 'thought police'. We need to be careful with our atmosphere, but we also need to not turn into paranoia.

Hannes821 09-Feb-21 05:15 PM

both is true, healthy environment maintained but also good faith regarding suspicions.

Rubaedo

Aikido says in that screenshot his grandfather fought for the axis.

Hannes821 09-Feb-21 05:19 PM

yes we shouldnt however make that a judgement that he was a nazi, because i would argue that being a german soldier doesnt make you someone who hates humans.

this is also a stereotype i would like to get off with

having grandparents that fought in the war doesnt make you a bad person.

and we already cleared the fact that this boy has no clue about what he was talking.

I agree to Rubaedo however that they both talk very edgy, and maybe for dep leads that do more than just work level talks, its good to have some spirit of ... i dont know, professional cooperation to others when being in discussions

1shoedpunk

I recognize that we're an international team and that some people were on other sides during different wars, but the problem is the admiration of it

Hannes821 09-Feb-21 05:23 PM

that is true.

1shoedpunk

The point is that we as a community need to step up moderation so our Discord servers aren't indistinguishable from /v/

Hannes821 09-Feb-21 05:31 PM

to some degree. yes.

i am really happy that everyone is going a step back to talk with their teams and we calm down.

back to the vote on the charter DC wording update, since this point seems resolved for the day; we actually have 2 SamuraiHealer columns

we have 9 votes and 6 left.

so far all yes.

Rubaedo, Sage, Samurai, Larrian, Fireknight left.

lol i made the mistake myself and counted samurai healer twice

5 left

Sage of Ice 09-Feb-21 05:54 PM

Yeah I have to look at that tonight, my schedule has been horrible

Hannes821 09-Feb-21 05:57 PM

it shouldnt be too urgent and we need to be careful with the charter, but yeah, we can do it now and we shouldnt forget about it, cool!

now = the next days and maybe weeks.

Robcbwilson 10-Feb-21 05:19 AM

The next few days would be good tbh

I removed the second SamuraiHealer column

Bellatrix 10-Feb-21 05:22 AM

I think I must have had a moment and done samurai twice and that’s why uber didn’t have a column:)

Hannes821 10-Feb-21 08:24 AM

fansavant left. yes, soon would be good. Have a nice day, everyone.

Hannes821 10-Feb-21 06:23 PM

Whilst we are still voting on removing DC from our charter, i have gotten a document from a department lead of my team, which is used in their company. They copied it and suggested me to hand it in in case it was your will to use it. Seems to be a common practise in the states, excuse my not knowing. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iBf3Cusc4u6d93wm4PB-bAupM0QXDNfW5kljW8NbmTE/edit?usp=sharing let me know if you think you need that, you could use it.

called "ONLINE AND SEXUAL HARASSMENT POLICY"

i dont know if its necessary to have, but best is i let you have it, i thought

Hannes821 10-Feb-21 07:42 PM

and, this is the revised Charter i handed in 4 years ago, i now reworked it again, so that its without DC and Atronach Forge and only unanimous vote. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FqGRM9tIwl4MoNIpD3RglfYFcooisQCyC86Pk5q_CQk/edit?usp=sharing I would be super happy if you had some criticism.

1shoedpunk 11-Feb-21 11:04 AM

There are a lot of changes in that document. Instead of rewriting the full charter from scratch, the changes should be really proposed as amendments to the existing document.

Hannes821 11-Feb-21 01:20 PM

I understand you.

The goal is a higher quality and precision of the text, to avoid stress. Maybe it's not feasible, but it would help to remove differences in content, if they were highlighted by you, to have a qualitative suggestion for the same rules in better shape. I understand it's more work. But essentially it could be much cleaner and shorter and avoid diverse interpretation.

Oh and thank you very much for looking into it

At the very least, you can take the new paragraph about investigation as my suggestion how it can be added on the old charter.

Bellatrix 14-Feb-21 03:38 AM

At the risk of further drama, I’ve been DMed a conversation that happened in this chat from someone who isn’t in council chat. I thought everything we wrote in here was confidential?

As in literally a snip of the message that was written in here.

Rubaedo 14-Feb-21 07:56 AM

Hrm

Well that’s concerning

Bellatrix 14-Feb-21 08:21 AM

Yeah. I mean I don’t know what the context is but I thought everything in here was confidential. It’s not a summary of what happened (which outside of things like ‘we’re voting on the charter I’m going to vote like this for us’ or ‘IB asked if we could promote this asset are you ok with that’) there wouldn’t be many reasons to do an executive summary anyway, it’s a direct snip. (edited)

Hannes821 14-Feb-21 08:24 AM

thats concerning indeed. was it a recent conversation?

Bellatrix 14-Feb-21 08:25 AM

Yeah. From when all the leak stuff first started.

Sorry, I’m being a bit vague. I don’t really want to get anyone into trouble but also don’t really see how we function with a leaky council chat.

Hannes821 14-Feb-21 08:26 AM

i wasnt following the conversation at start, even. yes.

i understand.

Woni 14-Feb-21 08:45 AM

Well, then I ask the person responsible of this leak to tell us and explain. (edited)

Hannes821 14-Feb-21 10:10 AM

Well, even if they had a good reason, it's a formal offense so maybe some would not be as understanding. Personally, I don't know if it's part of the charter but I understand that such a rule should be kept consistent.

Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Hannes821 14-Feb-21 10:18 AM

Pinned a message.

Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Hannes821 14-Feb-21 10:18 AM

Pinned a message.

Let's finish the voting on the DC name removal from charter

ub3rman123 14-Feb-21 03:49 PM

Sheesh, we have enough witch hunts around here already. I wish whoever is reposting stuff from the IB director chat would just message me or Sage directly instead when they have concerns.

Bellatrix 14-Feb-21 04:02 PM

I don’t think I’d heard about that.

We’re a mess at the moment.

ub3rman123 14-Feb-21 04:07 PM

Seems like the biggest culture change we need to foster is that if you see something wrong, you need to talk to your project lead about it because they're the person in a direct position to do something about it. Not forwarding it to someone else, not cropping it for max drama, and certainly not posting it on 4chan to build a personal army.

Hannes821 14-Feb-21 04:28 PM

Yes. Trust towards people you depend on. It's not easy but necessary. I think an open culture there between project leads and department directors could help, but not everyone takes the offer I guess,it depends on the persona

Shall we add a formal rule to the charter draft that the contents of this channel are confidential, and text or pictures or other files from here should not be given out specifically? I might be wrong but I think it's neither in the old very vague text charter, nor (yet) in the cleaned paragraphs proposal I am working on for so long now.

Bellatrix 14-Feb-21 04:33 PM

Sharing confidential information is specifically banned in the charter. I guess it could be that whoever did the snip didn’t realise that was what they were doing but seems odd if so as we’ve all been leads a while?

ub3rman123 14-Feb-21 04:34 PM

Really feels more like a "You should know not to do that already" thing.

Then again, I had the same reaction to the discussion on if we needed to put a sexual harassment section in the charter.

Bellatrix 14-Feb-21 04:36 PM

Sometimes this place makes me want to facepalm hard. And yes people should definitely know that already:)

Firenight 14-Feb-21 10:44 PM

@Team Leads Both me and Asher have decided to step down from my position as Triumvirate after a long time thinking about it. We decided that leftover pat should take the position as council representative. If there is anything that I need to do please lmk but if not could you please give pat the role and remove it from me. Thanks!

Hannes821 15-Feb-21 02:33 AM

yeah. so Leftover, then, @Larrian (Morrowind) @Rubaedo @Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) are left to vote on the DC proposal by claire.

Larrian (Morrowind) 15-Feb-21 02:39 AM

Oh I vote yes

Sol 15-Feb-21 02:39 AM

theres a spreadsheet

Larrian (Morrowind) 15-Feb-21 02:49 AM

bit confused

Sol 15-Feb-21 02:51 AM

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1deSqZTAgxqgDq9CHz5DJQNDBovQOEwHVC9oXggPZpwg/edit#gid=0

Charter vote

Sheet1 Edit,Example yes to everything ,example not yes to everything,1shoedpunk,Bellatrix,Firenight,Hannes,Klime,Larrian,Meglos,RobCBWilson,Rubaedo,SageofIce,Samurai Healer,Sol,ub3rman123,Woni Condensed version I am happy with all amendments (y/n) If n please vote seperately below,Yes,No,yes,Yes...

Bellatrix 15-Feb-21 02:51 AM

It’s a pinned link. You just have to write yes twice in your column if you agree with the changes.

Larrian (Morrowind) 15-Feb-21 02:51 AM

oh!!!

sorry

thanks sol ❤️

Sol 15-Feb-21 02:51 AM

Larrian (Morrowind) 15-Feb-21 02:51 AM

done

1

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 15-Feb-21 09:12 AM

done

1

Firenight 15-Feb-21 12:21 PM

@Administrator could I get roles updated please remove team leads from me and give it to leftover pat

1

Hannes821 15-Feb-21 01:00 PM

@LeftoverPat welcome here! Let us know if you have questions. We are currently voting on a small formal change for the charter, pinned. Nice to meet you!

LeftoverPat 15-Feb-21 01:29 PM

Thank you, I will take a look when I get the chance

2

Woni 15-Feb-21 02:11 PM

Welcome!

Hannes821 15-Feb-21 02:39 PM

(the pin by Bellatrix, not the recent pin by me)

LeftoverPat 15-Feb-21 03:12 PM

Replaced my name with Fire's & voted

Recently reviewed charter. Now to catch up on everything else

1

Hannes821 15-Feb-21 04:47 PM

cool, all voted, rubaedo please, ty

Rubaedo 17-Feb-21 01:06 PM

@here I've posted my votes. Sorry it took so long!

Hannes821 17-Feb-21 01:08 PM

great thank you!

i see that everyone voted with yes to all changes.

Bellatrix 17-Feb-21 01:23 PM

Cool. I’ll convert it to a PDF and put it somewhere...?

Now we just need to update the wiki!!

ub3rman123 17-Feb-21 01:32 PM

I was going to ask, what is the official repository of the charter?

Bellatrix 17-Feb-21 01:33 PM

Don’t think there is one. There were screenshots of the original DC one and it got copied into a document then onto the wiki.

For the PDF I was thinking the record of the vote but could do the charter documents too.

ub3rman123 17-Feb-21 01:34 PM

Can the wiki be made the repository with appropriate editing permission lockdowns somehow?

It'd keep a changelog automatically, too.

https://wiki.beyondskyrim.org/w/index.php?title=Beyond_Skyrim_Charter&action=history

Index.php

2

Hannes821 17-Feb-21 02:24 PM

Enodoc might be able to do that

Cool, another point on our Agenda resolved

Hannes821 17-Feb-21 03:45 PM

soo, could you tell me if you think its more approproiate to add a praragraph regarding harassment, or just leave it as it is, or maybe even bring this full declaration pinned? To resolve this. I could just phrase one condensed article to be voted to be added as middle way, too

Robcbwilson 23-Feb-21 02:49 PM

Are we ready to open #department_directors yet?

ub3rman123 23-Feb-21 02:50 PM

I forgot it was locked. Yeah, it should be open.

Bellatrix 23-Feb-21 02:52 PM

TBH I was really enjoying the lack of drama.

Robcbwilson 23-Feb-21 02:53 PM

As am I, but someone asked me because they want to ask a sensible question

Hannes821 23-Feb-21 03:51 PM

Oh, by the way, the changes suggested by Claire have been implemented, correct?

Bellatrix 23-Feb-21 03:53 PM

Doubt it.

This weekend I can PDF the vote and changes but as no one said they’d updated the wiki or asked someone to update the wiki it 99% hasn’t been done. (edited)

Hannes821 23-Feb-21 03:54 PM

If nobody feels being responsible I will do it. Since I guess you don't want to look at the full charter, I should bring now the description of the investigation process as single paragraph to be added. Exactly as it is in the doc.

That was what I was asked to do and I believe it's necessary and good for everyone.

See my draft pinned. I extract paragraph 22 (was it?) tomorrow.

They are all short and clear. And concise.

Bellatrix 23-Feb-21 04:06 PM

That would need a new vote?

1shoedpunk 23-Feb-21 05:28 PM

Yeah, that's a separate process

Hannes821 23-Feb-21 06:59 PM

Of course, as we said

Hannes821 24-Feb-21 07:26 AM

this is where i stand currently.

i was cutting down my full draft a lot now. its only half as long. maybe that is also interesting later on.

i appreciate feedback

Hannes821 24-Feb-21 07:36 AM

so the thing above, after your feedback, i would hand it in as suggested amendment. And for your interest/information, the condensed draft i would like to consider in the long run and discuss in the future with you is down to 5 a half pages and 18 short paragraphs https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FqGRM9tIwl4MoNIpD3RglfYFcooisQCyC86Pk5q_CQk/edit#

oh and, if there are no objections, i can copy claires suggested changes into the wiki there.

you can see the history version

later!

LeftoverPat 24-Feb-21 07:41 PM

I'll give the whole doc a look later, but it so far looks pretty good @Hannes821. Good that this info is being added. My only thing might actually just be a noob quesiton, in #4 what determines a "council member that might be prejudiced"? Hypothetically we could all be significantly prejudiced, right? So unless a council member is directly involved, where is the line drawn?

Hannes821 25-Feb-21 12:50 AM

thats the thing. Like everything in this investigation, its "writing down an established process" - we can formulate basic rules but at some point we always depend on good faith of everyone, especially councellors. So far, when there was an investigation, we had been honest to each other if we feel that we would be prejudiced and then didnt join the investigation server. If the complaint is formulated by one of us, then they dont have had a voting right on the matter and couldnt be in the discussion channel (like any complaining member or witness).

now that you mention this point, i am not sure i wrote that down specifically. in reality, this whole parragraph is trying to formalize what we had been doing by custom and practise so far.

so its clear for everyone, and doesnt feel spontaneous and arbitrarily

Bellatrix 25-Feb-21 02:31 AM

I need to read it properly but some of it feel like overreach. Like kicking inactive people after 3 months. Atmora might do that and it’s fine. I’ve always tended to be lax about it because some inactive people can reappear. I don’t really want to be told how we to manage the province. It’s fine if it’s ‘team members inactive for greater than 3 months MAY be removed for inactivity’ but that’s not how it reads. Plus I’m finding it really hard to see what’s a re-write and what’s not. (edited)

Hannes821 25-Feb-21 02:46 AM

It doesn't say that though

It only defines a minimum

It's a team leads task to figure out when this is appropriate

It just defines a minimum border, so that team leads don't kick people for even less inactivity.

@Bellatrix the idea is to have a minimum protection of members and at the same time keep team lead authority

If you read through, the draft is about minimal mandatory framework and all other decisions are explicitly given to team leads.

Everything (as it is now) about organising the team, setting schedules and communication tools etc

And it's only a condition that you don't kick people for inactivity for less than 3 months to be fair with them, other things remain untouched, so of course if someone violates rules (breach of trust, illegality) this time limit doesn't apply

Bellatrix 25-Feb-21 03:12 AM

But I didn’t get that from the document

Do you have a side by side comparison similar to what I did? I don’t really have time to sit down and go over it with a fine tooth comb until the weekend and unless stuff is hidden on my phone there’s no way to tell what’s changed or not and how. (edited)

Robcbwilson 25-Feb-21 03:24 AM

I agree with Bellatrix, the Charter is not here to tell provinces how to manage their teams. Also, we need a "Old" New" setup as was done previously so we know exactly what has changed

1

Hannes821 25-Feb-21 04:56 AM

shall i say the same to you again that i said to Bellatrix, Rob? Of course not. and, i didnt do that.

yes

okay so for clarities sake, first we should implement the DC wording from Bella, and then i only bring the investigation parragraph for vote. everything else we will see

Bellatrix 25-Feb-21 06:28 AM

This is the other thing. Are you only talking about one paragraph? If so why share the whole document because that has tonnes of changes. I’m really confused TBH.

Hannes821 25-Feb-21 06:54 AM

Because, (I think it was mentioned) the next step is that we clarify only the investigations

But essentially, there are many things that could be improved on the charter, so you see what I currently see as best possible version of it. Open for critical review.so that other issues can be specified or formulated shorter and more concise and precisely

The goal is to avoid missunderstanding and very wrong interpretation and by that, disputes for everyone

Robcbwilson 25-Feb-21 06:59 AM

And as I said last time, we do one thing at a time

Hannes821 25-Feb-21 07:46 AM

yes.

thats what i said.

LeftoverPat 25-Feb-21 08:15 PM

Docs has a great "Compare Documents" feature that highlights every change from a previous doc, if it helps in this case

example of it in action, when you select a 2nd doc w/ similar text

Robcbwilson 26-Feb-21 03:12 AM

This also works! We just need to see clearly exactly what has changed so there is no doubt about what was changed

Bellatrix 26-Feb-21 03:31 AM

Gah. If I’d known about that a few weeks earleir I could have saved an entire weekend of cut and paste drudgery

Robcbwilson 26-Feb-21 04:26 AM

True, but your way is neater

ub3rman123 26-Feb-21 10:19 AM

Oh boy, spotted another typo.

Was that in the round of fixes we voted on? And is someone deploying that update to the Wiki at some point?

Bellatrix 26-Feb-21 11:08 AM

Oooh I’m not sure. I fixed all the typos I spotted, but this is me we’re talking about...

Believe it or not I’ve got a book chapter out this month but happily someone else proof read it

Hannes821 26-Feb-21 01:03 PM

they say dep directors is still locked in #ban-discussion-and-notification

is that true?

Robcbwilson 26-Feb-21 01:53 PM

Yup

I did ask if it could be reopened the other day

Rubaedo 26-Feb-21 01:54 PM

I'm going to unlock it with a quick notice that arguments arent allowed.

Bellatrix 26-Feb-21 02:24 PM

Errm with stuff like this if you phrase it as ‘this is going to happen’ I’d assume it’s fine to happen unless someone says no.

But TBH I’m sad to see it go and don’t want to see any examples of Novack or Coanan not living up to the BS charter requirements in there in the future...

Or anyone else for that matter.

But TBH if it detracts more than it helps why would we open it up again.

Hannes821 26-Feb-21 02:34 PM

Well, technically we aren't in the position to permanently tell all our department leads to stop discussion in bs for lead topics.

This isn't beneficial for our community

Sometimes, minor distractions must be accepted for the greater good. How does it appear if we just don't allow any discussion permanently

Robcbwilson 26-Feb-21 02:35 PM

I agree, but what happened before it was locked was not discussion

Hannes821 26-Feb-21 02:35 PM

The teams need to deal with their members and the requirements of the charter

Yes. But we have both security and freedom concerns. It's about finding an appropriate balance

We should expect that they do better now or seriously discuss if they fit In their position, if the attitude persists

But we are here together in good faith

And we all agreed that it wasn't good

Bellatrix 26-Feb-21 02:36 PM

Oh yeah that’s fine but if that crap starts up again I’ll be complaining. I’m done with white knight crap on BS (edited)

Hannes821 26-Feb-21 02:37 PM

I understand that

Hannes821 26-Feb-21 02:54 PM

I was reading an article what that actually is, "white knighting" in contemporary internet language.

Does that mean you are against any further regulations?

Because I had no idea what that is

Bellatrix 26-Feb-21 02:57 PM

Errrm no. I’m against people concern trollling about stuff they really do seem to be for. If any of the IB leadership has concerns with me describing how two of their directors acted earlier this year, please do come for me. (edited)

Hannes821 26-Feb-21 03:00 PM

Ah okay. Yeah. Let's move on all together anyways. I will try to finally do that necessary DC changes to the charter as soon as possible. Was there any more feedback on the investigation paragraph from your side?

(not yet being voted on, just polishing the suggestion)

Bellatrix 26-Feb-21 03:02 PM

I’ll have a look tomorrow. It does seem like a lot. If you want the complaint part to go through I’d do that as a one off TBH.

Hannes821 26-Feb-21 03:09 PM

Yes, that's what I meant, sorry if it wasn't clear

Only the one single paragraph regarding our standard investigation process, as amendment to our recent charter, as we said all the time.

Bellatrix 26-Feb-21 03:11 PM

Can you just stick that in a separate document and we can vote on it?

Robcbwilson 26-Feb-21 03:51 PM

That would be easier

Sage of Ice 26-Feb-21 04:17 PM

I thought we already discussed not assuming the worst of IB leadership

Hannes821 26-Feb-21 04:49 PM

yep

yes

Hannes821 26-Feb-21 05:39 PM

11_Investigations.docx

14.92 KB

11_Investigations.pdf

62.27 KB

thats what i would prepare as suggested amendment.

Hannes821 26-Feb-21 06:13 PM

bit tired, but i have done the necessary changes from our vote. please check. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SiFFQ7vNiKJLsv6AOFh4couLI8IWP93C5TfyHkhFiLQ/edit The approved voted changes. https://wiki.beyondskyrim.org/wiki/Beyond_Skyrim_Charter The updated version. If you do not find any issues, we can announce it and it should become formally effective.

so one topic solved, hopefully.

Sage of Ice

I thought we already discussed not assuming the worst of IB leadership

Bellatrix 26-Feb-21 09:34 PM

I’m not. Have you ever heard me having a go at you, Garfield, any of your other leads. There’s a big difference between having a problem with how two people acted and the whole of the IB leadership.

Bellatrix 26-Feb-21 09:49 PM

And nothing ever really got resolved. Directors chat was locked which stopped what was going on in there. 3 weeks have passed and now it’s unlocked. But I’d like it to not be like it was.

Bellatrix 26-Feb-21 10:16 PM

But sorry the original comment was overly antagonistic. But what happened didn’t really get resolved.

Bellatrix 27-Feb-21 05:54 AM

Where are we going to record council votes? I've PDFed the vote and the two documents

Charter_amendment_side_by_side_comparison_-_full_version.pdf

174.21 KB

Charter_amendment_side_by_side_comparison_-_condensed_version.pdf

62.13 KB

Charter_vote_-_Sheet1.pdf

310.86 KB

But it feels like we need somewhere permanent to keep them?

Bellatrix 27-Feb-21 06:03 AM

I can also edit the charter in the Wiki tomorrow if no one lese does it first.

Hannes821 27-Feb-21 01:38 PM

How about a council decisions Channel next to department leads chat?

Where we only pin the results, no chatter

Bellatrix 27-Feb-21 01:40 PM

That could work. Or a folder on the shared drive but don’t know how we keep that private?

Your suggestion is probably the easiest!

Robcbwilson 27-Feb-21 01:47 PM

Yes, a channel seems like the best approach

Hannes821 27-Feb-21 02:11 PM

It would be most accessible. And that would help.

Robcbwilson 27-Feb-21 02:11 PM

Yes, and easy to find

Which is important

Hannes821 27-Feb-21 02:12 PM

Is it important that we correct the team lead pr or officer title?

Could be added to the vote on the investigation amandment since it's one single name exchange. I think having lead title is okay, and we have only one currently

Robcbwilson 27-Feb-21 02:17 PM

As long as the language is consistent throughout the Charter then I don't think it is worth worrying about

Hannes821 27-Feb-21 02:21 PM

Ok

Robcbwilson 27-Feb-21 02:26 PM

Especially if it needs to be a voted on change

If we can change that as well as PR to Publicity team then fine

Bellatrix 27-Feb-21 02:27 PM

TBH rob you can call yourself what you like

Robcbwilson 27-Feb-21 02:27 PM

Yes, indeedy

Bellatrix 27-Feb-21 02:28 PM

It’s just a bit weird cos it clashes with the more recent while PR dept rather than just one role.

Hannes821 27-Feb-21 02:32 PM

Well that's what I mean, like, it would make sense to have one consistent name. Of course you could call yourself what you like but if it's "just another lead like the others" it would answer many questions people could have reading up the charter now. That similar standards apply and it's the same thing.

Robcbwilson 27-Feb-21 03:33 PM

Consistency is key

1

Hannes821 02-Mar-21 07:01 AM

@here i would create a new channel under directors. maybe a server admin can make it so that only team leads can post there to restrict chat there. Then we can post council votes there. Call it "Council Votes" ? Then we pin Claire's docs there with a short explanation sentence. Also, if there are no further comments on the "Investigation paragraph" above, i would bring it to vote soon.

1

Robcbwilson 02-Mar-21 07:07 AM

I have created a channel

If we keep the channel clear, then it will be much easier to keep track of things

I created a second channel where we can discuss votes / present things to be voted on

Hannes821 02-Mar-21 09:09 AM

We already have dep director channel?

I mean technically that's where we discussed so far this

Robcbwilson 02-Mar-21 09:21 AM

We cannot discuss council matters there Hannes (edited)

Hannes821 02-Mar-21 11:58 AM

wait wait wait

you say you create a channel for department directors to discuss the public part of council decisions:; and now you say that cannot happen in the dep directors channel`?

@Robcbwilson i dont follow your logic

dep direcors channel is dep directors and team leads only as far as i know, its perfect and thats exactly the purpose

Robcbwilson 02-Mar-21 12:00 PM

No, I did not

Hannes821 02-Mar-21 12:00 PM

not even mentioning that we didnt quite put down all our decisions as publicly as the charter actually requires it (they usually in DC times needed the council to publish decisions in member level chat, not in dep lead chat)

Robcbwilson 02-Mar-21 12:00 PM

I created channels for the Council to discuss votes

Hannes821 02-Mar-21 12:00 PM

i thought we do that here

okay sure.

Robcbwilson 02-Mar-21 12:00 PM

Department Directors do not contribute to Council discussions

Hannes821 02-Mar-21 12:00 PM

i didnt say that

i repeat myself

Robcbwilson 02-Mar-21 12:00 PM

I did what you asked

Hannes821 02-Mar-21 12:01 PM

department directors to discuss the public part of council decisions

the idea was that we start presenting our decisions again, at least to department leads

after we de facto ignored that point for the last years.

Not that they would take part in discussions prior decisions

we didnt have many decisions at all anways

but technically it was a standard on DC that the decisions become public after the effect

(anonymously, of course)

it was a missunderstanding!

it works as it is.

we talked about showing decisions that happened. like a protocol of public information

retrospectively and without debates.

or, at least that was my suggestion, since we dont need to pin our own decisions for ourselves i guess.

we know what we had been discussing (we should)

Robcbwilson 02-Mar-21 12:22 PM

It is fine, I misread it

But I think the extra channels for the Council will still be useful for future votes

Hannes821

after we de facto ignored that point for the last years.

Bellatrix 02-Mar-21 12:22 PM

Depends how you do it. The Roscrea leads have always know what roscrea is voting on...

Robcbwilson 02-Mar-21 12:23 PM

We need to anonymise voting I assume for the Directors channels

Bellatrix 02-Mar-21 12:24 PM

Do you want a massive director free for all or do you want to discuss it within your teams and then vote on their behalf....which is what I’d always understood the charter said we were supposed to do?

Robcbwilson 02-Mar-21 12:24 PM

I do not really want the former no

Bellatrix 02-Mar-21 12:25 PM

I mean obviously not the investigations and we don’t vote much outside that but we definitely discussed the PR dept creation other projects joining and the charter changes as a lead group.

Bellatrix 02-Mar-21 12:38 PM

What we did used to have on DC was a bs only channel where people put proposal and anyone could comment. And then the vote and discussion were on council only channels.

Bellatrix

Depends how you do it. The Roscrea leads have always know what roscrea is voting on...

Hannes821 02-Mar-21 12:39 PM

Whilst I second this since we have the duty to ask for their opinions and take their standpoint into account for our votes, we have a problem here. We execute publicity about bs policies with double standards. Officially all conversation inside of here should be confidential. Unofficially we do talk with our team leads when they are affected. That's not a good situation. On top of us having the duty to present all our decisions to the pan bs members in public in a standardised way.

Bellatrix 02-Mar-21 12:39 PM

Not sure how well that would work here because you don’t make a new thread on discord so the discussions get buried and loose the direct link.

Hannes821 02-Mar-21 12:40 PM

So, since we moved to discord, we did loose transparency and we kinda held the ship on course by personal case by case decision on how we interact. However, as an institution that is not very satisfying.

It depends very much on each of our good wills how our teams can work with the pan bs umbrella

Bellatrix 02-Mar-21 12:41 PM

And there hasn’t been any breach of this channel. Endoc asked us to vote on it in the directors channel and all the others we’re pre discord.

Hannes821 02-Mar-21 12:41 PM

Strictly taken confidentiality, we wouldn't been able to talk with our leads at all. So we have a classic conflict of institutional interests between participation and coordination

Hannes821 03-Mar-21 03:58 AM

we should have a standard coverage of votes towards our leads, so that they know what we vote on, and we need to publish the outcome to everyone.

having this pan bs could influence our decisions negatively, but it would also be be more fair.

the actual discussion should of course always be in here only

naming dep leads what we plan to vote on, but not discussing it with them, i see, will be very hard to do in reality

so maybe we just keep everything as it is

but i still think that having past decisions pan bs public is really no issue and very beneficial for communication

Bellatrix 03-Mar-21 04:44 AM

Could trello work for pan BS awareness? People can post the proposal on there then people can comment in the card. It would make it more self contained like the DC forum used to be.

Not that it's a huge deal - the whole idea of BS is it's basically autonomous teams so we barely ever need to vote. I think this is first vote we've done outside an investigation since switching to discord? And I think I've done 4 in total in the entire time I've been on the council....

Hannes821 03-Mar-21 04:53 AM

i just thought that we have our #council_vote_results (under name "Council Decisions" or similar) under dev only visibility.

that would be everything in my humble opinion

and without stating who voted for what, or who initiated a vote.

thats interna.

Hannes821 08-Mar-21 09:10 AM

@1shoedpunk is a triumverate lead automatically a dep director here?

i am not sure. i am friends with opus, so its not like i am against it, i just want to follow the rules properly

1shoedpunk 08-Mar-21 09:53 AM

I think so, the department director chat is meant to be more of an information sharing chat anyway

Hannes821 08-Mar-21 12:53 PM

ah okay

so no reason to be very dogmatic about it

so i guess i can give it to opus, thingy asked

LeftoverPat 09-Mar-21 11:31 PM

Yeah opus and ComatoseHuman I would consider dept directors

Of AU. Late to this sorry.

Bellatrix 04-Apr-21 01:43 AM

Do we need to put the Yesses in an occicial document somewhere? Like the last vote so we can PDF it and keep a record or something. We’ll have all forgotten what it was about next year and discord isn’t easy to search.

Robcbwilson 04-Apr-21 01:50 AM

I can, yes. I was unsure about where I could store a spreadsheet so that everyone could see it and wanted the voting completed before focus moved

Bellatrix 04-Apr-21 02:21 AM

We can do it after I guess?

Robcbwilson 04-Apr-21 04:38 AM

Yes, if we are just recording cast votes I can do it later easily enough

Robcbwilson 04-Apr-21 04:49 AM

Do we have a drive for Council matters?

Hannes821 04-Apr-21 05:03 AM

so far i was using my private drive for stuff and sometimes others did the same.

as far as i remember. maybe we need to define a council folder somewhere?

Robcbwilson 04-Apr-21 05:27 AM

Yes, I think that is exactly what we need to do

1

Robcbwilson 05-Apr-21 01:39 AM

With the current vote concluded, the amendment to the Complaint process has been approved

I would like to create the channel that @Hannes821 suggested under #department_directors where we inform them of the results of our votes so unless anyone has any objections I will do that today and post the amendment there

1

Robcbwilson 07-Apr-21 05:08 AM

OK, as no one has voiced any objection I will go ahead and create the channel

Robcbwilson 07-Apr-21 05:32 AM

I would also like the Complaints Process added to the actual Charter. (edited)

As 5.8 seems about right

Hannes821 07-Apr-21 07:14 AM

okay.

i schedule that

Robcbwilson 07-Apr-21 07:14 AM

Thanks! I am going to propose an amendment based on what Thingy is saying

1

Hannes821 08-Apr-21 01:13 PM

@Robcbwilson hey say, this change to say "address your issue at a team lead of your choice" (or similar) doesnt need a vote does it? is it only a re-formulation of the quasi same status quo or also a formal change we should vote on?

ah right you said you propose it

Robcbwilson 08-Apr-21 01:13 PM

I am not sure if it needs a vote

I assumed that I do

Hannes821 08-Apr-21 01:14 PM

what would be the phrase before and after?

maybe we can ask the council if they think its a minor formality or not

Robcbwilson 08-Apr-21 01:15 PM

This is a brand new phrase

Hannes821 08-Apr-21 01:16 PM

ah okay. so if we compare it to the sentence in the general section?

i should probably check if it was there lol, or if its just my flawed memory

oh i should unpin the draft we already decided on, and this harassment doc. since its not relevant now anymore, as it wasnt relevant enough to be followed it seems.

the other recent pins by claire and chameleon might be redundant now, too but i dont want to remove other peoples pins

Robcbwilson 08-Apr-21 01:18 PM

Yes, clean them up once they are voted on

Bellatrix 08-Apr-21 02:01 PM

It’s a bit weird that we’ve voted on something and now taking feedback. We need a better mechanism for this. People should have done the criticism before we voted and it became part of the charter not after.

Also do you want to do it as a free for all where everyone can pile in or disseminate this stuff at a province level and feed and criticism from a province level back to here? I can see it getting very messy the current way we’re doing it if a single director takes exception to something.

Robcbwilson 08-Apr-21 02:08 PM

It is perhaps not the best way, but it is part of the transparency the Charter mentions (edited)

We clearly need a better process, yes

Bellatrix 08-Apr-21 02:12 PM

I mean I think we already have a better process. We’re supposed to vote on behalf of our projects so non of this should be coming as a surprise at director level at the very least.

Robcbwilson 08-Apr-21 02:13 PM

So, the channel in Directors should just be the logical end to that process

Informing people that the process has finished

Robcbwilson 08-Apr-21 02:25 PM

Perhaps we need to re-iterate the process to ensure everyone here knows what is expected of them

Bellatrix 08-Apr-21 02:28 PM

I mean ultimately its up to the people in here how they want to feed back to their teams. But once we’ve voted on something in here we’re not unpicking it just cos someone in directors chat doesn’t like it. That’s not how council votes work.

Robcbwilson 08-Apr-21 02:31 PM

Yes, totally understand. Thingy just pointed out a typo

Bellatrix 08-Apr-21 02:32 PM

No it’s more than that it’s about the phrasing. Which to be fair seems sensible but why waste my time voting twice when this could have been ironed out before if we’d actually engaged with our teams as we’re supposed to?

Because let’s face it if we change the text we have to vote again.

Robcbwilson 08-Apr-21 02:36 PM

So should we formalise the process of talking to our teams in some way? To avoid things like this in the future?

Hannes821 09-Apr-21 02:20 AM

if we represent our vote drafts en detail that would help transparency but also put maybe leads under some pressure

as far as i understood the current practices, you didnt want that

but that would be the alternative approach

presenting drafts for vote there

might be harder to align all feedback, but we would have more feedback,.

or we do it step by step rather and give a rough direction by our council vote

and later fix it like now

Bellatrix 09-Apr-21 02:26 AM

No one is saying directors should vote on anything but if you read the charter we’re supposed to represent our projects views and how do you do that if you haven’t discussed it with your team prior to voting?

Oh sorry I misread it, you’re suggesting we get directors to vote on proposals?

Hannes821 09-Apr-21 03:40 AM

you know in the end of the days its always views of individuals

there is a saying in german: if you have 3 lawyers you have 5 opinions

i absolutely not did suggest that

i was asking if you want to show vote proposals before vote on directors chat or not.

and i am sceptical because it was not the practise so far for the council, and i got the feeling between the lines this would potentially be seen as "too chaotic"

i am fine with it either way but i understand both, the position of having a broader opinion input and the view to have a more guided consensus making within time and on focus

and adjust issues like this formal addition for clarity later on

in this specific case, we just add a sentence that is already clear by context, for cosmetic user friendlieness, if you like

how could i potentially suggest changing the vote? (edited)

you just suggested more transparency, i and i discussed the most logical step that could be taken on more transparency if we follow this concern further

but as always, its a balance of interests to be followed

we still have had this open point from last time though, and you are right to point that out.

you meant that any vote should be discussed with the team before, which is a notion i understand; at the same time, writing together the investigation process has nothing to do with team matters here, so i dont think this is a pattern to be generalized

also, note that formally speaking, all discussion here is confidential between us, and we yet have to define actually (if we are accurate about it) to what degree it is to be revealed for getting opinions

its so far, as we said a blind spot where we by practice, gradually, ignored our charta so far if we involved our teams

now, tell me this is overkill, but its not a good situation if we bring ourselves into this position to either reveal confidential discussions OR ignore our teams

it would be a daydream wish of mine if there would be a good middle ground which is passed as formalized rule to make us act safe here

so, to long to read:

i think if you want more transparency, you should consider showing vote proposals in department directors chat. However, it might not be appropriate, comparing interests in leading to consensus for direction versus interests for broader input, since we will now always get feedback after the process from department directors anyways and can easily post adjust what we voted on. The second issue is that we still did not define, to what degree our confidentiality is being lifted when presenting votes to our teams to get the teams input. Formally speaking, we are not allowed to ask our teams on their opinions at all, which conflicts with our duty to do so, which should be resolved in one way or the other.

in this particular case, this cosmetic change should would not constitute a need for a general open proprosal draft requirement for me. In practice, it looks fine as it is to me.

Hannes821 09-Apr-21 04:05 AM

a change of the vote would mean that i would ignore the charter and our constitution, hence i was confused.

Hannes821 09-Apr-21 04:13 AM

we could actually hit 2 birds with one stone, as briefly mentioned before. if we ask our department directors for opinions on a topic here in the department directors chat before a vote is held; there is no need to reveal confidential discussion topics in the teams, and we keep BS topics in the BS server.

we can make sure that all dep directors have access to the same information, and we do not have to walk on the border of revealing too much confidential info ourselves to our teams

this, in effect might also reduce "team specific interpretations" and team to team frictions in BS politics, if we all talk on the same fundament of information

so, instead of us going in our teams management channels, we could present vote applications or general topics here to the dep directors and get a broader discussion on an even level, less influenced by our own personal factors, which could be more fair overall.

of course we cannot discuss ALL details on a subsequent level

it would also mean more publicity for dep directors and more moderation effort here, instead of in our teams

you know your dep directors. what do you think?

Hannes821 09-Apr-21 05:02 AM

But before we discuss the changed voting proposals before voting in council maybe resolve the open discussion on the 5.8.

i drafted a formulation in #council_vote_discussion

@Robcbwilson what do you think there?

Robcbwilson

So should we formalise the process of talking to our teams in some way? To avoid things like this in the future?

Hannes821 09-Apr-21 05:07 AM

yes

but step by step

Hannes821 11-Apr-21 02:25 AM

If thingy doesnt respond i assume its fine?

1shoedpunk 11-Apr-21 09:45 AM

I think that there's always going to be issues with wording but that just means that additional language can be voted on

We put this together with experience of how these kind of policies have worked in the past, but we aren't always going to get it right the first time. I think as long as there is a mechanism for feedback, as there has been, we can always make fixes where they're necessary

But amendments to the Charter aren't meant to be accumulated law and rules, they're meant to be fixes to the existing structure. The best way the Council has always functioned when it's a buffer between actions people might be tempted to make and actions that are actually good for the projects.

Robcbwilson 11-Apr-21 11:28 AM

Perfectly put as always

Hannes821 12-Apr-21 05:03 AM

okay

Hannes821 17-Apr-21 04:32 AM

@here a short heads up, as there was no futher feedback from Thingy our vote is passed and i pasted the copied text here: https://wiki.beyondskyrim.org/wiki/Beyond_Skyrim_Charter#5.8_Complaint_Process

Beyond Skyrim Charter

please make sure to check and correct

/give feedback or whatever

2

Bellatrix 17-Apr-21 04:47 AM

Thanks Hannes!

Robcbwilson 17-Apr-21 05:46 AM

Nice work!

Robcbwilson 18-Apr-21 04:59 PM

While we are updating the Charter on the wiki, could we also make sure that Bellatrix's changes (the removal of the DC references) are added to the wiki

@Hannes821

Hannes821 18-Apr-21 05:12 PM

wait

didnt i do that?

did someone revert that or did i edit the wrong wiki lol.

could you tell me which line you saw the old version? @Robcbwilson ty

or was it simply all?

Robcbwilson 19-Apr-21 12:53 AM

It was all of them as far as I could tell @Hannes821

I did a search on the wiki for DC and Dark Creations and got multiple hits for both

Robcbwilson 19-Apr-21 01:37 AM

Hannes821 19-Apr-21 02:19 AM

maybe i edited the internal one...

okay

i work on it

Bellatrix 19-Apr-21 02:52 AM

Oh. I didn’t realise there were multiple versions!

Hannes821 19-Apr-21 04:38 AM

We have this international Dev wiki and the public one.

I might have edited the wrong one. I will check

I edited the linked text at 27th. I must have overseen some

Robcbwilson 19-Apr-21 07:21 AM

I had no idea there were multiple versions

Do we need more than one?

Hannes821 20-Apr-21 05:16 AM

this is due to the fact that BS decided to have an internal (dev) and an external (public) wiki.,

but i might be wrong, the charter may be stored always on the same page, i was just assuming they have duplicates.

anyways i obviously made an error here and correct it as soon as i can

this is the complete history of the page, and the edits of DC is between the 2 blue marks.

https://wiki.beyondskyrim.org/w/index.php?title=Beyond_Skyrim_Charter&type=revision&diff=3575&oldid=2878

Beyond Skyrim Charter

this is the comparison view of all the changes i made. left right

i must have missed some. i fix that.

Robcbwilson 20-Apr-21 05:27 AM

Thanks! Let us know when it is fixed

Hannes821 20-Apr-21 05:27 AM

will do!

Hannes821 20-Apr-21 05:38 AM

there was a small typo and i meant to fix it, but i dont want to change anything so, i ask you./show you

will copy the wording except for that mistake.

The management of Beyond Skyrim has been overhauled to make it much more transparent. Whereas historically, many decisions were taken by groups of Team Leads on Skype or via PM thread, now a dedicated discord channel is being used. Discussions can be carried out in the open, and formal decision-making votes can be taken by the Council of team leads. A dedicated community public discord category is made where regular members can vote on polls presented, and join petitions, discuss issues and critique team lead decisions and give feedback and improvement suggestions. Regular members will be able to read and "like" discussions in this forum, but not place their own posts. A separate discussion forum will be created for regular members to vote in polls present petitions, discuss issues, or critique the team leads' discussions in the decision-making forum.

Robcbwilson 20-Apr-21 05:47 AM

I actually want to rewrite that and put it up for a vote

That paragraph shows intent but not exactly how we are doing it / want to do it

Hannes821 20-Apr-21 05:54 AM

yes. its maybe the most interesting aspect

so i just checked highlighted changes last time (27th of february) and missed a hand full of changes and didnt delete number 13, which was full of DC refs

Robcbwilson 20-Apr-21 05:54 AM

What is written there we simply aren't doing at the moment

Hannes821 20-Apr-21 05:54 AM

it should be fine now, but i will keep polishing if we find some more mistakes

Robcbwilson 20-Apr-21 05:54 AM

So we need to decide what we are going to do

Thanks!

Hannes821 20-Apr-21 05:55 AM

yes this would require us to decide to do that and honestly i am a bit suprised it was in the text

content discussions aside, the shape should be much closer to where its supposed to be now

https://wiki.beyondskyrim.org/wiki/Beyond_Skyrim_Charter#S3:_Rights_and_Duties_of_Members

Beyond Skyrim Charter

Robcbwilson 20-Apr-21 05:55 AM

I found no DC mentions and only one Dark Creations

Hannes821 20-Apr-21 05:57 AM

thank you,

that sentence was to be removed entirely and i missed it

ok now.

so, having optional surveys is good i think.

but the way its written now it looks like the council chat could be public and de facto single individual messages are subject to team public revision

i dont think that it was like that on DC either

so we want to be careful with the wording here

Robcbwilson 20-Apr-21 05:58 AM

Yes, it is a bit weird how it is now

Hannes821 20-Apr-21 05:59 AM

and since it is public right now, we should fix this quickly.

Robcbwilson 20-Apr-21 06:03 AM

Yes, it is next on my list

Hannes821 20-Apr-21 06:05 AM

i started a conversation now for that: #council_vote_discussion

Robcbwilson 27-Apr-21 01:43 PM

Should we have a channel on the Dev Server that has a link to the Charter, any other documents we want everyone to see and a list of everyone on the Council?

Bellatrix 27-Apr-21 02:34 PM

Does the dev channel not already have the link to the charter?

Wow. I’m not actually sure if it does because there’s an insane amount of irrelevant shitposting that got pinned. What the heck???

Robcbwilson 27-Apr-21 02:37 PM

Yeah, the pins are not great

I have in the past cleared them out, but got a very angry reception for doing so

Bellatrix 27-Apr-21 02:40 PM

I’ve deleted them all except the mega map, because frankly they were mostly insulting in their banality (or really old, but mostly the former) (edited)

Does anyone have a link to the charter.

Can we limit who can pin? Because honestly those pins were not good.

Robcbwilson 27-Apr-21 02:43 PM

https://wiki.beyondskyrim.org/wiki/Beyond_Skyrim_Charter

Beyond Skyrim Charter

Bellatrix 27-Apr-21 02:44 PM

Ok. I’ll post and pin that.

Robcbwilson 27-Apr-21 02:44 PM

I don't think we can restrict pinning

Bellatrix 27-Apr-21 02:45 PM

Yeah you can...? https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/how-to-pin-a-message-on-discord%3famp

How to pin a message on Discord so anyone can easily find it at any...

You can pin a message in Discord by clicking the three dots that appear over a message, or holding your finger on it.

Robcbwilson 27-Apr-21 02:48 PM

OK, I will see if I can find the permission for it as I couldn't see it on first glance

Found it

So, the only people who can pin messages (hopefully) are people on the Council

I have asked someone to test it and it seems to work

Hannes821 28-Apr-21 05:04 AM

can, you can set permissions for pinning

Robcbwilson 28-Apr-21 05:26 AM

Yes

I have done so already in #devs_only

Hannes821 29-Apr-21 01:18 AM

@Robcbwilson https://wiki.beyondskyrim.org/wiki/Beyond_Skyrim_Charter#Condensed_Version should be changed

Beyond Skyrim Charter

i also think if you want to share the vote results channel, it should really not contain the names of individual leads who suggested a vote. We all carried a vote together and take responsibility at the point its passed; and the general principle is that we discuss policies here without singling out any of us for being "too quiet" or "too active". So i am for keeping the "how exactly the discussion is being held" internal as it is now, and not hinting at who initiated new ideas; it might always be interpreted with speculations.

Robcbwilson 29-Apr-21 01:26 AM

I disagree, I think it adds to the transparency (adding the people who propose the ideas)

Has this version been updated? https://wiki.beyondskyrim.org/wiki/Beyond_Skyrim_Charter#Condensed_Version

Beyond Skyrim Charter

Hannes821 29-Apr-21 01:30 AM

we have the non disclosure of debate here to avoid unorthodox influence on individual council members and allow free debate and consideration here.

whenever we point out individual positions of us from here, we essentially limit that principle further

yes it has, look at the bottom of "condensed version".-

Robcbwilson 29-Apr-21 01:44 AM

Bringing forth an idea is not part of the debate.

Hannes821

yes it has, look at the bottom of "condensed version".-

Robcbwilson 29-Apr-21 02:08 AM

Thanks! For some reason, searching was not working in my Chrome

I can see the new section

Hannes821 29-Apr-21 09:05 AM

people might even interpret new suggestions negatively, thats speculative and hard to tell.

1

LeftoverPat 06-May-21 07:47 PM

@Team Leads We will be dropping Comatose from Triumvirate position after a long period of uncommunicated inactivity. See background section below for more info. More importantly - Naariel is our first choice for replacing him, without question. She basically does the work of a Tri already, greatly respected, and cares about the AU more than anyone. However, Asher had told me there might be a charter rule against having non-BS members as AU Triumvirate? I could not find it in the charter, though. I read twice but may have missed it? She is currently part of Skywind and Alinor. So my question is - what/where (if any) is the rule on this? And if there is a rule, should I get her to join a project before we consider selecting her?

Background on Coma's demotion * As stated, our primary reason for moving toward demotion at this point is due to his uncommunicated inactivity. We have attempted to make contact multiple times to ask if he plans to return or if he would like to step down, with no response. However, I would like to explain some background events which influenced the situation to inform you all. * Back in early March, Comatose joined Skyblivion's community stream plastered drunk, criticising a Skyblivion lead's example of reinterpreting art to the point of publicly insinuating Skyblivion was taking advantage of its fans. He also said that SB was sucking Kazuhide dry (AU student who made Imperial Palace for AU collab), and oppressing him (SB leads are actually very good to Kaz - Coma was referencing something Kaz told us in private about wanting to avoid burnout). Again, this was in a community voice chat during a stream. I was approached by two SB leads about what happened, and spoke to witnesses privately, confirming the discomfort.

* I spoke very strongly with Coma about how unbecoming it was of his leadership & project ambassador position. He was very embarrassed about his actions (for those who don't know him, he is normally a very kind person). He said it made him want to leave the AU. Instead of immediately demoting/banning him, we decided to ultimately give him two options: To step down honorably, or give him another chance while I took over project outreach. He loosely decided to stay on board. * With the exception of 3/30 when he said he'd try to catch up in some days... He has not responded to any pings, any DMs, etc for over a month now. * I gave him a final ultimatum that while I understand his embarrassment, if he is not willing to dedicate even minimal work, esp without communication, then we must seek to replace w/ someone who could devote more time. * He did not respond for a week. I wrote him to ask if he's had time to think about it, and if he did not respond, we would consider him moot and drop him from the position. * He did not respond for yet another week. We've decided it would be more responsible of us to drop his role, given the ghosting. Now we are here.

ub3rman123 06-May-21 07:49 PM

I don't see anything in the BS charter specifically requiring it, except maybe having to act in the interests of BS. Doesn't the AU have its own mini-charter?

LeftoverPat 06-May-21 07:59 PM

"...additions to the BS charter" here, yeah. Part F, Section III "has to be an active Beyond Skyrim member, teacher for 3 months..." though I'm not really sure how old this was (pre-partner project days?) nor if it was a decision the Council decided. It seems to have been written by a collection of moderators. If we must seek rule change or addition to rule (such as "candidate must be on partner project for 6 months"), we'd like to pursue it. Or just have her join a BS project... whatever's less shady. https://docs.google.com/document/d/17RmeF-33LjMsFOUL2RpI2_0B1QeIi8mNfLIlbefd-Js/edit?usp=sharing (edited)

AU - rules and guidelines

AU - rules and guidelines The Following rules are additions to the Beyond Skyrim charter that solely affect the Arcane University. The BS charter has validity unless a rule written in the following text states otherwise. Server behavior- Skywalker General behaviour rules, this section will co...

Rubaedo 06-May-21 08:01 PM

I believe "active member" is the operative phrase here. If someone is unable or unwilling to provide consistent output, their leadership can be revoked.

LeftoverPat 06-May-21 08:04 PM

yeah, +active

LeftoverPat

"...additions to the BS charter" here, yeah. Part F, Section III "has to be an active Beyond Skyrim member, teacher for 3 months..." though I'm not really sure how old this was (pre-partner project days?) nor if it was a decision the Council decided. It seems to have been written by a collection of moderators. If we must seek rule change or addition to rule (such as "candidate must be on partner project for 6 months"), we'd like to pursue it. Or just have her join a BS project... whatever's less shady. https://docs.google.com/document/d/17RmeF-33LjMsFOUL2RpI2_0B1QeIi8mNfLIlbefd-Js/edit?usp=sharing (edited)

Robcbwilson 07-May-21 12:40 AM

The AU mini charter was written by Deisabri, Asher and Fire not that long ago. I agree that this phrase should be rewritten and voted upon in the first instance

Robcbwilson

The AU mini charter was written by Deisabri, Asher and Fire not that long ago. I agree that this phrase should be rewritten and voted upon in the first instance

LeftoverPat 07-May-21 01:54 AM

Interesting

makes me feel like it's even more open to interpretation now, or that it's opus & I's jurisdiction. What should be the most council-friendly way to rewrite this? Would we council vote on these AU mini charters similar to our BS charter changes? (edited)

tbh still feel like the easiest way to make everyone happy (and ensure her oath to BS charter) in the short-term is to just have her join a BS project but... wanna make this easy long-term.

if Opus and I have somewhat free reign to addendum that mini-charter, that changes things too

Hannes821 07-May-21 03:24 AM

You should be fine by deciding this internally. I mean essentially you are 3 people and can vote, inactivity is a very clear case. Unless they claim they have been active.

LeftoverPat

tbh still feel like the easiest way to make everyone happy (and ensure her oath to BS charter) in the short-term is to just have her join a BS project but... wanna make this easy long-term.

Hannes821 07-May-21 03:25 AM

Sorry I missed it, who is her?

LeftoverPat 07-May-21 03:26 AM

Naariel

the main issue to be clear is our ideal replacement candidate is not in Beyond Skyrim, but Alinor/Skywind

we have decided on demotion of Coma already

Hannes821 07-May-21 04:03 AM

Ah okay

LeftoverPat 07-May-21 04:27 PM

So it seems since BS charter doesn't mention it and our AU charter was not an official council document & made by past Triumvirate... I would love to have the following added to current BS Charter just to make this/future situations clean:

The Arcane University may as appropriate promote people from outside Beyond Skyrim to the position of Teacher and Triumvirate.

>

Triumvirate and Teachers are bound to the conduct of the Arcane University Rules.

>

When a replacement Triumvirate is chosen, but is not apart of Beyond Skyrim, they are by definition a Beyond Skyrim lead bound to the conduct of the charter.

@Team Leads Would love your feedback on above as possible new section to be added to charter & to be eventually voted on! (edited)

our current AU "mini-charter" will be demoted to 'guidelines' for same reason

Robcbwilson 07-May-21 04:31 PM

So, to be clear the AU "guidlelines" document would no longer be governed by the Council? In other words, it can be updated, corrected etc without a Council vote?

LeftoverPat 07-May-21 04:40 PM

i didn't think that doc was any of that anyway, afaik

Basically that doc would just exist as a guide for knowing what to do if you're not sure

So yes, correct. a guideline for Tri/teachers, not a charter/constitution. not even an official rules doc, necessarily. Any changes to it would be decided internally. (edited)

AU is conduct-bound by its rules outlined in the rules channel, and its leadership bound to BS Charter. Nothing more.

Robcbwilson 07-May-21 04:48 PM

That makes sense

Hannes821 08-May-21 01:09 AM

The guidelines should nonetheless of course be compatible with our charter, but that's just a side note now.

1

I thought we already once discussed one person might be non bs from the three triumvirate people however, as Rob said, we don't have any explicit rule I believe that says they must be bs members. (Or do we?)

In general I think it makes sense to be open to allow a lot of soft synergies to happen

And consolidating what is left of the active community

1

1shoedpunk 15-May-21 01:20 PM

@here The following is a statement from Thingy Person and Dronon regarding a complaint that they're bringing to the council: We, Dronon and Thingy Person, wish to present our investigation Rubaedo, Meglos and Larrian, the current Project Directors of Beyond Skyrim: Morrowind, which demonstrates that these individuals are dangers to Morrowind, other Beyond Skyrim projects, and Beyond Skyrim as a whole, and have demonstrated a pattern of repeated intentional harm to not only the aforementioned entities but to specific individuals within them. During our brief time among the Morrowind leadership, we had developed growing suspicions regarding the conduct of the accused, and upon further inspection, were deeply troubled by what we had found. This document contains a sequential breakdown of the history of the accused's involvement within the Beyond Skyrim: Morrowind (BS:M) project. We will be explaining how, upon deeper investigation, we found a depth of misconduct that spans the past 5 years, including several recent incidents which have not yet come to light, and will elucidate the intent behind all of these events which demonstrates a clear pattern of behavior. We were deeply concerned with what we found and hope that this comprehensive compendium will finally shed light on the true context behind some of the deepest wounds in the Beyond Skyrim community which still persist to this day.

In addition to the people that they're bringing this forward regarding, they've asked for the following recusals: Robcbwilson due to a conflict of interests: was ousted as Morrowind director by them Sol due to being heavily implicated in some of the evidence, and having a demonstrable close friendship with the accused

Robcbwilson 15-May-21 01:25 PM

I accept that I will be recused from this due to a conflict of interests. It would be impossible for me to be impartial in this case

Meglos (Morrowind) 15-May-21 01:26 PM

I'm sorry what

1shoedpunk 15-May-21 01:26 PM

I'm just delivering this message, I haven't reviewed the evidence document. I've attached my dialogue with Thingy Person from the time he brought the potential case forward to me to the present.

ThingyPersonMay2nd.docx

24.12 KB

I will create an investigation server

Meglos (Morrowind) 15-May-21 01:29 PM

Please do, I am utterly baffled at this seemingly coming out of nowhere and am completely confused about whatever violations we're supposed to have done

As far as I can see, the main complaint is that we... own Discord servers?

What is this about?

1shoedpunk 15-May-21 01:32 PM

Okay first of all Thingy just told me he received a message from someone not in this channel regarding this complaint which means that people are leaking from the lead chat.

I don't know, I haven't reviewed the document yet but I shared everything I have

I'll make the server and there will be an investigation. The accused members will be brought into it once the Council members that are part of the discussion have had a chance to review the details of the case.

Meglos (Morrowind) 15-May-21 01:34 PM

I feel as though I have a right to know what complaints are being brought against me as I'm totally in the dark here

1

As far as I know, I have personally never committed a charter violation and I'm feeling deeply betrayed and confused at the moment

Robcbwilson 15-May-21 01:35 PM

Do we know who is leaking from here @1shoedpunk ?

As that is very serious on its own

1shoedpunk 15-May-21 01:36 PM

He did not indicate who leaked it, just who sent him the message, but I'll let Thingy Person share that as part of the evidence once the server is set up because the leak appears to be retaliatory.

Robcbwilson 15-May-21 01:36 PM

Understood

Larrian (Morrowind) 15-May-21 01:38 PM

Well this is a nice thing to wake up to

Let us know when the server is set up

Meglos (Morrowind) 15-May-21 01:41 PM

@1shoedpunk The document you posted mentions a whole bunch of evidence that's not present in the doc?

1shoedpunk 15-May-21 01:43 PM

That document was just Thingy coming forward to me with the case. He shared the document with the evidence with me to share in the investigation chat on the server, it has been posted.

1

Bellatrix 15-May-21 02:28 PM

I’ve not read all the complaint yet but I have to say I’m very concerned that things are leaking from this chat. I brought it up a few months ago but no one seemed bothered

I think the leaks probably warrant action even if the complaint doesn’t.

1

Sol 15-May-21 04:44 PM

I'm utterly confused by this as well but I'll accept being recused. What a thing to wake up to

Robcbwilson 16-May-21 02:13 AM

Are the recent leaks also by complainants in this case?

Larrian (Morrowind) 16-May-21 03:58 AM

I can't speak for anyone else but I can assure I've leaked nothing

Hannes821 16-May-21 04:57 AM

Well at this point without any other evidence we should be bound by good faith and assume no one of us specifically leaked a thing. Of course its not easy if you sometimes have poeple join and leave this channel. But its not necessesarily someone present now i assume.

I didnt have time yet sorry Maybe later

1shoedpunk 16-May-21 04:02 PM

Someone did specifically leak it, though

Robcbwilson 16-May-21 04:54 PM

This case?

1shoedpunk 16-May-21 05:18 PM

Yes, Thingy received a message immediately after it was posted here from a member not in this chat.

Robcbwilson 17-May-21 01:00 AM

Oh, that is very bad indeed

Robcbwilson 17-May-21 08:37 AM

For those of us who are recused from this complaint, could we get updates on what is happening (where possible of course)?

ub3rman123 17-May-21 09:04 AM

Are we supposed to be getting details somehow? The server doesn't have anything, nor here, so I have no idea what's going on.

Bellatrix 17-May-21 09:14 AM

I think you need different permissions. Have pinged 1shoe.

Hannes821 17-May-21 09:20 AM

Good idea

Robcbwilson 21-May-21 08:56 AM

Is it possible that Sol and I could get a role on the server so we can see enough to know what is going on without being able to see things we aren't allowed to?

Hannes821 21-May-21 10:10 AM

Sorry, this is taking a while. There’s a lot to go through and we’re deciding if the complainants have standing to bring the complaint which is why it’s taking a while.

Robcbwilson 21-May-21 10:16 AM

Thanks Hannes

Sol 21-May-21 12:06 PM

Thanks for the update, Hannes

Bellatrix 22-May-21 06:33 AM

Regarding the complaint over Morrowind’s leadership, the current complaint doesn’t meet the requirements of charter section 2.3 or 4.2 which would result in the involvement of the council when all alternative routes have broken down and as a result, no charges shall be brought at this time. In the first instance, conflict arising due to leadership of a project should be resolved at the project level and only involve the council if all other mitigation routes have failed. This has not been demonstrated in the current complaint. Therefore we suggest engagement of the wider Morrowind leadership and project team to resolve these disputes. In the event of further conflict, we would require evidence that all other routes have failed and that the complaint is broadly supported by the majority of the project team. The issue of leaks from council chat arising from this complaint, is a breach of section 5.6.2 “breach of trust” and will be investigated separately.

Hannes821 22-May-21 12:12 PM

Lets always stick to the charter and assuming good faith, dealing each other with respect etc.

Sol 22-May-21 10:26 PM

Hopefully things can be all worked out then

Hannes821 23-May-21 06:52 AM

I think so.

Rubaedo 24-May-21 09:59 AM

@here After attempting to speak to Dronon and Thingy within our leadership chat, I woke up this morning to find this posted in our announcement channel publically.

The signatories. UltimateGaymer has asked to be removed from this list.

At no point have we been able to even prompt a discussion from them.

They've been removed from both our leadership server and MW as a whole. We'll be locking the MW server until we can formulate a full and formal response.

This was the "call-out post" in question.

It was posted exclusively in our internal leadership server. We stated multiple times that we wished for this to be exclusively handled internally and not in front of our team at large.

Bellatrix 24-May-21 10:49 AM

Can I just check. You’ve removed everyone who put their name to that from your server?

Meglos (Morrowind) 24-May-21 10:49 AM

No

Only Dronon and Thingy were removed

Rubaedo 24-May-21 10:50 AM

We've only removed Dronon and Thingy.

Meglos (Morrowind) 24-May-21 10:50 AM

We will be handling this internally in an open discussion forum on the Morrowind server shortly

Larrian (Morrowind) 24-May-21 10:50 AM

which I will stress is a suspension

Bellatrix 24-May-21 10:50 AM

And you’re not going round pressurising people to remove themselves from the list?

Meglos (Morrowind) 24-May-21 10:51 AM

No, we will be addressing any concerns in the aforementioned forum

Larrian (Morrowind) 24-May-21 10:52 AM

One signatory has initiated a DM with me and we have been having a discussion in good faith about things

no one has been pressured to remove their signatures

Meglos (Morrowind) 24-May-21 10:57 AM

This is what we're going ahead with

Bellatrix 24-May-21 10:58 AM

OK. That seems fair enough. Should give everyone time to calm down but absolutely everyone does need to be able to discuss what’s happened.

Meglos (Morrowind) 24-May-21 11:00 AM

Of course, we want everyone to be able to ask whatever they need to of us

Hannes821 24-May-21 01:00 PM

its important you can talk with everyone

nobody wants such a destruction

i hope you can lighten their concerns

we all wish the best to the MW projects

maybe you can somehow go a few steps towards them and reach them a hand

we would all love to see some peaceful mediation

its really a pity that you couldnt talk it out with dronon and thingy directly

please. even if they might talk aggressive, stay as nice as possible and try to calm things down

thank you

and maybe you can improve something and they are happy you heard them (those that are still around) and its a win-win situation for the whole project

(i have no clue about MW,just very general)

LeftoverPat 24-May-21 01:14 PM

I think you had complete right to suspend for that, but I second hannes here. I don't know the MW team enough besides some teachers who were signatories, so this is easier said, but the ones who would get most value of their concerns addressed are the complainants.

Meglos (Morrowind) 24-May-21 01:27 PM

We're currently holding a call with a large chunk of our membership, including the majority of the signatories, and the discussion has been very civil so far. A lot of concerns have been brought up and addressed, so hopefully we can come to a resolution soon.

1

Hannes821 24-May-21 05:15 PM

i think we are all super happy if you can improve issues and MW can flourish

thats good news!

Rubaedo 24-May-21 05:59 PM

Here's a summary of everything discussed in the Open Forum https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kw9c5FN3NmXjdv1uYxJS-oCeo5ixRljQzDXiYn-J8UE/edit?usp=sharing

Open Forum Summary 25-05-21

Beyond Skyrim: Morrowind Open Forum Discussion 25/05/2021 Brief Summary: Dronon and Thingy Person brought forward a complaint to the BS council regarding concerns over our leadership. The case was dismissed by the council a week later, and we were instructed to work things out among the Morrow...

1

Rubaedo

Here's a summary of everything discussed in the Open Forum https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kw9c5FN3NmXjdv1uYxJS-oCeo5ixRljQzDXiYn-J8UE/edit?usp=sharing

LeftoverPat 24-May-21 08:28 PM

Thank you for a very well-laid out summary. it sounds like the open forum was really beneficial for everyone in helping to reinstill confidence in MW's leadership. I think regular check-ins like that, even quarterly, is a great idea. I also like the way you're planning to handle the Dronon/Thingy ultimatum, despite emotions that come with having to face somewhat of a coup.

Robcbwilson 25-May-21 02:21 AM

I don’t have all the details, but I have just been informed that the compendium has been leaked to 4Chan

The document has been locked down

https://boards.4channel.org/vg/thread/336653253

/vg/ - /tesg/ ~ The Elder Scrolls General - Video Game Generals - 4...

/tesg/ ~ The Elder Scrolls General - "/vg/ - Video Game Generals" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games.

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-May-21 02:29 AM

Thanks for letting us know, I've locked down our doc as well

From the looks of the thread it hasn't blown up or anything

2

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-May-21 02:47 AM

If anyone here has yet to read it and would like to, just shoot me your email and I can add you manually

Bellatrix 25-May-21 02:56 AM

Oh my god. If there’s one thing we don’t need out on the wild it’s 179 pages of dirty laundry.

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-May-21 02:57 AM

If there's one good thing about that it's that people aren't willing to read through that much stuff

The thread seems to have moved on, hopefully this will just be forgotten

Hannes821 25-May-21 11:33 AM

its important that you try to incorporate input and worries of your team or explain central design decisions with them. Sometimes they can then give you some feedback that leads to your design evolving a step further.

Hannes821

its important that you try to incorporate input and worries of your team or explain central design decisions with them. Sometimes they can then give you some feedback that leads to your design evolving a step further.

Larrian (Morrowind) 25-May-21 11:35 AM

That's the idea! We've taken a lot on board from our open team forum and are hoping to make some changes for further transparency and general team culture improvements :)

Hannes821 25-May-21 11:37 AM

great!

i wish you the best!

1

Hannes821 25-May-21 03:46 PM

Meglos, the incomprehensible screenshot you apparrently shared with lasur had the intention to say why i am pacifist and anti fascist, however that not all poeple serving in the army back then were politically convinced in what was happening. Sorry for my bad grammar, style and long sentences. I would further really appreciate if the trust i bring forward to you by posting personal beliefs was not undermined by sharing such messages. Personal and project informations should be handled confidential. In the other case i understand you wanted to calm the situation in mw but still the evaluation of the council on the MW case were not yet public, so please do not share any information from here as especially this room is meant for us to discuss open and privately. If such things happen a few times they become concerning. But for the most recent case, the council evaluation i see a legitimate reason. Please be nice and fair. I didnt share any information of this case either. Either way i know my odd speaches appear funny at times for native speakers but keep the laugh between those present here please, thanks.

Hannes821

Meglos, the incomprehensible screenshot you apparrently shared with lasur had the intention to say why i am pacifist and anti fascist, however that not all poeple serving in the army back then were politically convinced in what was happening. Sorry for my bad grammar, style and long sentences. I would further really appreciate if the trust i bring forward to you by posting personal beliefs was not undermined by sharing such messages. Personal and project informations should be handled confidential. In the other case i understand you wanted to calm the situation in mw but still the evaluation of the council on the MW case were not yet public, so please do not share any information from here as especially this room is meant for us to discuss open and privately. If such things happen a few times they become concerning. But for the most recent case, the council evaluation i see a legitimate reason. Please be nice and fair. I didnt share any information of this case either. Either way i know my odd speaches appear funny at times for native speakers but keep the laugh between those present here please, thanks.

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-May-21 04:21 PM

Without further context I'm not 100% certain on the situation you're referring to, but please know that if I shared any of your messages, it was never done with the intent to mock or ridicule. Since you mention Linton, I can only assume that whatever was shared was done in a private voice call between myself and him as we often engage in lengthy intellectual discussions about various things. Regardless, I sincerely apologize for this breach of trust and I will absolutely be more careful and considerate about where I share stuff from in the future.

Bellatrix 25-May-21 04:22 PM

Literally, you do not share anything on here with anyone. How is this even up for discussion??!!!

Also, why didn’t you own up when I posted about it originally? (edited)

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-May-21 04:23 PM

I'm not entirely sure what you mean?

This is the first time anyone's brought up something I presumably shared from this chat

Bellatrix 25-May-21 04:25 PM

No. I need to scroll back but I was made aware at the time that someone had leaked it (but not who) and posted on here. Everyone studiously ignored it.

Either way, even if you missed my post, why the heck did you think it was ok to leak from council chat? (edited)

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-May-21 04:28 PM

I still have no more information about what specifically was leaked and where, can that be clarified for me?

Bellatrix 25-May-21 04:32 PM

It’s in the stuff on 4chan.

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-May-21 04:33 PM

Oh, that wasn't actually in the version of the doc we got from Dronon and Thingy

Bellatrix 25-May-21 04:34 PM

At the time it happened I just had a DM to say there was a leak from council chat and no corroboration from who it was from which was why o kept it vauge. But then no one owned up to leaking anything.

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-May-21 04:46 PM

Then I apologize for missing that, and though I can't really defend the leak itself, I hope intent can be a factor here. I wouldn't knowingly leak pertinent info about the project to any outside sources, and given that Linton is a long-time and trusted member of the project and the content of the screenshot wasn't anything specifically to do with BS, I didn't really think much of it at the time. I realize now that was wrong, I did not leak anything else at the time, and I have no intention to leak anything more in the future. I will also apologize once again to Hannes and restate that my intent was never to make fun of anything said, and I don't want any of this to reflect back on Linton for re-sharing it either.

Bellatrix 25-May-21 04:50 PM

I don’t know what everyone else thinks but I’m not sure how I trust you won’t do this again TBH. I don’t see how I can have an honest discussion in here about potentially sensitive topics without it risking ending up being circulated round the in-clique.

Meglos (Morrowind) 25-May-21 04:52 PM

I understand how you feel, because I know there have been other leaks mentioned in this chat and I do want to assure you I had nothing to do with any of those. I can't really say much else here other than to re-state that this was a one-time situation for me and I have no intention of doing it again.

Hannes821 25-May-21 05:06 PM

For what was regarding me, i take your apology and assume we are good. We want to trust each other.

1

Bellatrix 25-May-21 05:16 PM

I guess we need to try and establish if the apparent leak about the complaint that @1shoedpunk reported came from here or not. It’s not good if we’re leaking like a sieve but also i guess unlike the screenshot from this chat, we don’t know (does 1shoe?) it came from here.

There could be legitimate ways for that to have got out from the people making the complaint without it necessarily coming from here.

1shoedpunk 25-May-21 06:46 PM

It wasn't a screenshot that was leaked, I don't think there's any way of tracking who leaked it, but it was a message from Deer, who is in Morrowind leadership but not in here.

I don't think there's anything we can do to address that

Larrian (Morrowind) 25-May-21 07:08 PM

Deer messaged thingy around the time the case came to the council?

1shoedpunk 25-May-21 07:17 PM

Yes, right after it came to the Council

Rubaedo 25-May-21 07:23 PM

We're going to be speaking to her, asap.

Robcbwilson 26-May-21 02:10 AM

Are we still going to have an investigation / official complaint about this?

Robcbwilson 26-May-21 02:29 AM

We need to get to the bottom of the leaks

Rubaedo 26-May-21 03:09 PM

Hey, so, I had a conversation with Deer about this. When this whole thing started, we had been having a conversation, and she noticed I seemed a bit distracted. I brushed it off with "I've got some council drama to deal with," and thought nothing of it. Apparently she put two and two together, as Thingy and Dronon had both spoken about wanting to remove another, ancillary member not long ago and assumed this was about that. This was my mistake, not anyone else's.

1shoedpunk 26-May-21 03:42 PM

This came from Thingy after the point of the conversation I had already shared, but it's consistent with what Rubaedo is saying.

This was what Thingy sent to me, so it does sound like there was more of the assumption of a leak than an actual leak.

Bellatrix 26-May-21 03:52 PM

OK. So I guess it’s just one actual leak and hopefully everyone is now fully signed up to the concept that that’s not an appropriate thing to be doing. I’d definitely be pushing for removal from the council if screenshots are leaked again though. Unless it was a totally exceptional case like we’d collectively lost the plot and we’re about to endanger the project.

1

Robcbwilson 26-May-21 03:53 PM

I think that is fair enough. What has happened has happened and we start from now with a clean slate

4

Hannes821 27-May-21 02:14 PM

Agree. We will be strict here now.

we can talk about a base line of what we communicate to department directors so the teams can follow up with the discussions at some point.

but we shouldnt just one-sidedly copy out here with no rules.

Bellatrix 27-May-21 02:47 PM

Yes but there’s a very clear difference between ‘we been asked to vote on this how does it impact on our province and how would we like to vote ‘ - which if you read the charter we’re supposed to represent our province not ourselves. And ‘oooh someone just said something I think is a bit edgy, I’ll screenshot it and share it with my friend’.

Robcbwilson 27-May-21 03:04 PM

Yes, the latter is unacceptable

Rubaedo 01-Jun-21 09:55 PM

Hey all, now that everything's calmed down a bit, there's something important I need to bring up. In the document Dronon submitted to the team, he makes reference to a conversation we had in private in such a way that it suggests to me that he may have recorded it. While I don't want to assume, it seems likely to me that the document he submitted to the team was in fact an edited version of whatever was submitted to the rest of the council, and that the original document may have included said recording. I'm not sure how many of you are aware, but in the United States recording a conversation (without all parties having given their consent) is a crime, and depending on the state, can even be considered a felony. I recently spoke with my lawyer about this and there are some cases, notably regarding volunteer work, where knowingly failing to inform a colleague that a crime has been committed against them can be considered a criminal offense as well. I am not going to be seeking any formal or legal action regarding this. I think we're all pretty well exhausted by everything that's happened and I for one just want this to be over and done with. That said, I do think this is absolutely worth bringing up. If something like this happens in the future I don't want anyone on the council to be able to get dragged into legal trouble. I'd also suggest that those of you who still have Dronon on your projects do keep an eye on him. If he's willing to break federal law over something so small as a short conversation regarding internal project tensions, he could well be willing to make more serious breaches should he feel it advantageous.

ub3rman123 01-Jun-21 10:06 PM

Depends on the state. Most are one party consent.

Rubaedo 01-Jun-21 10:07 PM

I'm in New Hampshire, and I believe Dronon mentioned being in California.

Hannes821 02-Jun-21 12:35 AM

not aware of any recordings but sounds serious.

hope you can resolve it, maybe leave a public note for the future?

i mean its also a break of trust depending on the itentions of recording, but thats very hard to say

*intentions

*breach, sorry, early morning here

Hannes821

not aware of any recordings but sounds serious.

Rubaedo 02-Jun-21 12:48 AM

Ah, so there wasn't any recording submitted to the council? I suppose that begs the question as to if there would be one in the first place, but I'll not dwell on this. Mainly I just want everyone to be aware that this is a serious crime in many places, and we need to be very careful about this sort of thing.

Bellatrix 02-Jun-21 01:34 AM

We definitely haven’t been given a recording.

I have to say I’m very wary about the use of voice chat in BS. Partly for this and also partly because there’s no record of what there was discussed. Which isn’t inclusive for team members who aren’t present and also in cases of breach of charter of illegal behaviour there’s absolutely no proof. Unless it’s been recorded which may also be illegal. Literally the only time I would ever take part in a voice chat is when we do the team walkthroughs. And they’re recorded YouTube streams so all the points I worry about are taken care of.

I know it’s a hobby but it can have real world consequences and especially at our level, it’s better to think of it as a job rather than a hobby.

Hannes821 02-Jun-21 01:38 AM

well i am not recording you

and i dont think i would even if it was not considered illegal

text is more transparent, and in general i found over the years that you want to be as public and direct as possible to avoid issues

its certainly easier to argue about text interpretation than vague moods on a voice chat 3 weeks ago

Robcbwilson 02-Jun-21 01:41 AM

We (on Elsweyr) record our team meetings and upload them to YouTube so that people can / watch them later but everyone is very aware that I do this

At least in the UK (to my knowledge) you have to make both parties aware of recording taking place

Both from a legal and a moral standpoint

Robcbwilson 02-Jun-21 01:55 AM

But what Dronon did does seem to be illegal in the UK (edited)

Hannes821 02-Jun-21 02:00 AM

its one thing if you document a public meeting, the other if you record without peoples agreement and especially potentially with intentions that are not solely the good of BS and the respective team (however that is contextual interpretation and hard to prove) - still, the fact that it should only be recorded when there is a benevolent public interest and everyone agrees should apply

i mean you cant use recordings in courts in germany unless the accused agrees, for one example.

we have not received any recordings, and the past is the past, i think the case is behind us!

Hannes821

its one thing if you document a public meeting, the other if you record without peoples agreement and especially potentially with intentions that are not solely the good of BS and the respective team (however that is contextual interpretation and hard to prove) - still, the fact that it should only be recorded when there is a benevolent public interest and everyone agrees should apply

Robcbwilson 02-Jun-21 02:08 AM

Oh yes, totally different

I only record team meetings so that anyone who can't make it can watch them later. Access to them is controlled by permissions and if anyone ever shares the link beyond the team that recording will be pulled (I monitor how many views they get)

2

Robcbwilson 02-Jun-21 03:48 AM

For the record, there was a recording

Bellatrix 02-Jun-21 04:11 AM

I guess we probably need to do a ‘don’t record things without peoples consent’ pep talk. FFS this stuff should be obvious.

Robcbwilson 02-Jun-21 04:13 AM

Yeah

Robcbwilson

For the record, there was a recording

Hannes821 02-Jun-21 04:40 AM

thats poetic

i must have missed it entirely

yeah how about adding that to a "good practises" list in the charter?

so its present

Robcbwilson 02-Jun-21 05:00 AM

This is covered by:

The trouble with lists is that we would need to be exhaustive

Hannes821 02-Jun-21 05:09 AM

indirectly

but i think there is nothing wrong by making a transparent direct statement for the sake of clarity in the future

Bellatrix 02-Jun-21 05:14 AM

We can’t keep amending the charter each time someone comes up with anew way of being an idiot.

Robcbwilson 02-Jun-21 05:29 AM

Agreed

With both of you

Hannes821 02-Jun-21 05:55 AM

hahah so it means we add it only once now?

Robcbwilson 02-Jun-21 05:57 AM

We will need to make some sort of announcement

Rubaedo 02-Jun-21 02:23 PM

Personally I'm with Claire here, it seems a bit overblown to me to make a full statement when the rules against criminal activity and breach of discord TOS are already in place. Mainly I just wanted to raise awareness of this issue and try and make sure everyone knows in case anything similar happens in the future. And, of course, to make clear that we are dealing with a member who is willing to break the law in order to get what he wants, which is something we should be careful around.

2

Sol 02-Jun-21 03:47 PM

Honestly it seems like something that should be quite obvious. Don't record private conversations without the knowledge of all parties, but alas. I also agree with Claire and Rubaedo, not much point in making a statement but just something to be aware of that apparently happens in BS.

1

Robcbwilson 03-Jun-21 05:08 AM

That is fair

The don't be a d*ck rule

LeftoverPat 04-Jun-21 12:20 PM

Iirc Dronon is from New Zealand. I also don't know how differently the law gets interpreted when it comes to discord or Skype. If he felt his position was in danger, I feel sympathy for his desire to record, but frankly the way it was used was really bad form, illegal or not. It's so invasive and seemed like a paranoia measure to begin with. This whole issue seemed like paranoia measure if you ask me. I agree with above points

Robcbwilson 04-Jun-21 12:54 PM

Cough, cough he is Australian

But in all seriousness yes what he did was wrong

Regardless of the legality, it was poor form

Meglos (Morrowind) 04-Jun-21 12:57 PM

Australian but he mentioned in a meeting once he was living in Cali :P

Robcbwilson 04-Jun-21 12:58 PM

Yes, he is in California

Meglos (Morrowind) 04-Jun-21 12:58 PM

Regardless, it's really dodgy behaviour to be recording private calls, no matter where you live and the exact technicalities of the legal systems there

Robcbwilson 04-Jun-21 01:08 PM

Agreed

LeftoverPat 04-Jun-21 02:18 PM

Ah

N yeah can agree with that

Rubaedo 04-Jun-21 03:24 PM

Yeah I know for a fact he's somewhere on the west coast, given I've had to organize more than a couple voice calls with him. But my main point here is that should someone come forward with information like this again, we should all be very careful as it could get the entire project in legal trouble.

Robcbwilson 19-Jun-21 04:53 AM

Just got a message from Skyblivion warning us about someone threatening to join teams and leak builds

Robcbwilson 19-Jun-21 05:04 AM

Bellatrix 19-Jun-21 06:27 AM

Oh great.

Robcbwilson 19-Jun-21 06:27 AM

Yes, good of them to let us know though

Bellatrix 19-Jun-21 06:30 AM

Yeah. We’ve let them know about potential issues a few times too. We’ve got a pretty good relationship with them which is great.

Robcbwilson 19-Jun-21 06:31 AM

Totally, makes sense for us to work together on things like this

ub3rman123 19-Jun-21 06:56 AM

Hah, Garfield told me he tried to join IB already but got rejected for sending way too many questions about his application.

Robcbwilson 19-Jun-21 06:57 AM

Would explain why he was so keen

Robcbwilson 19-Jun-21 07:13 AM

Out of interest what did he apply as?

ub3rman123 19-Jun-21 07:25 AM

Level design.

He submitted this as his application work: https://drive.google.com/file/d/16HgoAatjCWnVBchf5S1fEFsf8DLFOmGM/view?usp=sharing

Iliac_Bay_application.rar

So I guess watch out if he sends you that exact file under a different name.

and my occasional reminder of our hilariously lopsided application proportions

Robcbwilson 19-Jun-21 07:30 AM

Wow, you get a lot of writers

Ours would be similar but with Voice Actors instead

ub3rman123 19-Jun-21 07:47 AM

They're underrepresented for us because I don't think we even have the option listed right now.

When we did, yeah, every other application.

Robcbwilson 19-Jun-21 07:54 AM

Sounds familiar

LeftoverPat 19-Jun-21 06:25 PM

@Robcbwilson wow reading that shit changes everything for me about whether to keep in au or not

Robcbwilson 20-Jun-21 01:33 AM

Yes, adds a lot of context and also gives an indication of their character

LeftoverPat 20-Jun-21 07:03 PM

Be advised we've officially banned Doctor Strange from the AU

Banned for conduct unbefitting a student of the Arcane University, enforced by our rules #1 and #9. Our platform must be a safe space for not only students, but our projects as well, and applying to our partner projects with malicious intent (such as leaking and/or selling access, or pretending to have access) is unacceptable and disrespectful.

Hannes821 21-Jun-21 01:04 AM

understood

Hannes821 02-Jul-21 03:25 AM

there was a guy called yolomeister without any roles here, this morning also joining atmora dev server out of curriosity. I think we could remove inactive members (who are not member of any team) here.

Robcbwilson 02-Jul-21 11:14 AM

I know that Valenwood is not part of BS, but I received warnings from members of the team that someone is attempting to poach from the team (at least a half dozen people have been approached). I mentioned it to the Elsweyr Core and Sotha has also been approached. I did an @ everyone on both teams, warning people that there is someone actively poaching. The person involved is Amicus, who is an associate of Deisabri. For reference, this is what I said:

Some of you may have been approached recently by a modder named Amicus. They are recruiting for a modding project called Stormcrow Projects (https://www.artstation.com/josephmachado). Normally, we do not warn people against joining modding projects, but this particular modder and their associates are not recruiting in good faith and we would recommend that people not join their team(s). Our concerns about them in particular are: That they are attempting to poach people directly from other teams which is widely considered poor form in the modding community and a sign of bad faith. When we recruit, we specifically avoid people who we know are on other teams. Poaching in general is the worst thing that a modding team can do, it is enough to get someone banned from Beyond Skyrim for example. It also appears that they are using people's concept art without giving them appropriate credit. Whether this is true or just a coincidence that the art on their "team page" has art without artists logos / signatures on them, we would recommend strongly that everyone watermark their work when they publish it anywhere. Lastly, the feedback from people on the project is that the leads are rude and ungrateful. The leads on the team are known to us and have a reputation for being arrogant, treating people like resources and generally not being nice.

Hannes821 02-Jul-21 12:20 PM

oh Amicus. The writing lead who was like "i dont have time to read your old mq to fix it, i just write a new one." With abigail we did that in weeks lol.

anyways not nice

but regarding deisabri, i have no evidence that she is involved or even purposely acting negative.

Robcbwilson 02-Jul-21 12:22 PM

I know they are associates, but yes there is no evidence she is involved

I am just passing on the warning

LeftoverPat 02-Jul-21 01:47 PM

his modders guild, too. i know several AU teachers are involved with this, but if you ask me, i don't expect it to last long. amicus has proven to be a very reactive, volatile person. it seems like an AU clone that 1. deisabri can join 2. apparently does both FO and Skyrim moddng 3. everyone can advertise their project on https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/obz9dn/the_modders_guild/ if they succeed in their mission statement to include other games, all power to em. but it seems more like a spiteful move, because 1. deis is banned and 2. we rejected stormcrow projects as a partner project and maybe 3. we rejected mini partnership with Tri-Wizard AU triumvirate has discussed making it a policy to not really give it much attention. we simply made a post saying we're open to everyone, b/c there were apparently rumors against that.

r/skyrimmods - The Modder's Guild

52 votes and 13 comments so far on Reddit

and that's it. if any AU teachers are caught poaching for him, it goes without saying they're kicked. but otherwise we're not going to react, and even ignore it if it comes up in convo

Robcbwilson 02-Jul-21 01:56 PM

That would make sense as I know that Thras have been talking for years about creating an alternative to the AU and Deis is now leading Thras

LeftoverPat 02-Jul-21 04:15 PM

Upon thought, I dont know if Robs statement like what was made in Alinor/VW would be an appropriate look for BS in our other servers. Some of the points come off as too presumptuous to me. "Associate of Deisabri" i feel was also not necessary. i also dont exactly know where poaching becomes poaching if it's done in DMs or via artstation. people look to places to recruit, it's up to the modder to accept/not. he didnt join a server guns blazing with recruitment. i feel like the statement is just too charged. we should avoid appearing witch hunty. idk if it's fair to say the art was stolen. we should treat stormcrow as a regular modding project. not as enemies.

again, as we are with AU, i recommmend everyone not engage or give it attention unless something is very clearly stealing. we cant claim theyre in bad faith based on assumptions and personally i think it'll just make BS look bad if we continue that way

Bellatrix 02-Jul-21 04:18 PM

I can’t see many of us making public statements. I’m not aware of it being an issue on Roscrea or cyrodiil so why would we? No point unless we need to, it just antagonises people.

Sound like it’s different on alinor though.

Robcbwilson 02-Jul-21 04:19 PM

On Alinor, because of what Deisabri did to the team it is a different matter. They were actively poaching people from Valenwood which is why we posted there

We also posted on Elsweyr because the Core agreed that it was a course of action that we felt was appropriate

I was in no way suggesting that anyone make any posts that is not my place. I was simply stating that we made a post and shared what it was

LeftoverPat 02-Jul-21 04:21 PM

yeah didnt mean to insinuate if i was, just been thinking about it a lot today

Robcbwilson 02-Jul-21 04:21 PM

I shared what I felt was important information as that is what I am supposed to do as a member of the Council

If it is not, then I apologise

Perhaps I should have just said nothing

LeftoverPat 02-Jul-21 04:58 PM

All that's happened with Deisabri is in the past and should stay there at this point. We need to respect her as her own modder now, and Stormcrow as their own project. It's a better look for us. If we feel she or her associates are dangerous as project leads, that is the project's problem, not ours to worry about. If we feel there is active, attempted burning of BS by anyone, we need to discover the truth before anything. I am happy to act as this diplomat. We don't have to avoid being guarded, but we shouldn't be paranoid enough to assume they have demonic motives against BS always. I would even consider AU partnership with Stormcrow if they get established enough. If we DO antagonize, then they will develop stronger motives against us. And we will lose more AU students. Our only role regarding anything Deisabri-related should be either silence or olive-branching from now on.

Robcbwilson 03-Jul-21 01:08 AM

I am not happy with the insinuation that I did not “ discover the truth”. I and the Valenwood Core acted on first hand information in good faith. If people want to read things in to that then that is their prerogative. As I said, I will in future keep my mouth shut here

LeftoverPat 03-Jul-21 02:19 AM

I think it's important you posted here. I'm not really questioning your right to have made the announcement you did, but I feel we burned a project's reputation by doing so, and I need to say that i don't personally feel some of the reasons were based enough. 1. I feel like poaching is too loosely defined to blame it here. Whether it was on discord DM or artstation, projects need to recruit somehow. If they need certain members, and they find someone who happens to be a BS member, many would not consider that poaching if it's done on artstation. Then... if I had a 500 Companions project, and I wanted to recruit you as a project manager, is that poaching? But we're peers? The waters of forgiveness get muddied. They didn't join a server and announce it. I would give them the forgiveness we would give another small project here. 2. We have 0 confirmation these images were stolen, right? But now we've given people the option to believe it. Its okay to be suspicious but I don't think this was fair to insinuate. Many new artists don't watermark their work. 3. Them being rude and arrogant may be true for some, but not for plenty others. Without any of the other points, publicly shunning a project for this alone doesn't sit well with me. It risks looking bad for all of Beyond Skyrim on a PR level. Only takeaway I ask we consider moving forward is understanding that our statements as Beyond Skyrim leads are really powerful. It probably damaged this project's reputation. Or maybe ours. And while I can vouch for amicus's volatility, how unhelpful of a teacher he was, and Deisabris lead history, I dont feel burning this small project was deserved here.

Hannes821 03-Jul-21 11:41 AM

Rob

I think we need to reframe this whole conversation

Skyrim modding is in the position it is, it doesn’t get younger. And they are all volunteers frankly speaking, doing this as a hobby. Take it as you feel, but even if we would be telling people it’s bad behavior to poach , thruth is we have no control over it, and the reason we exist is because people choose to rather work on our projects than other’s.

And any connotation of exclusion will not make is more attractive

This kind of rivalry is self cannibalism

Hannes821 03-Jul-21 01:28 PM

Anyway. It should be no secret to you that my team never had any issues with deisabri. And not connected to robs quitting of this server (what?) my team wishes to formally change her complete ban from bs into a ban from any lead position. We have seen that both she would not be willing nor able to go through such a situation again, but we also never assumed bad faith on her actions, just a bad and inexperienced judgement from her side, which disqualified her as a lead of any kind. However she was always a welcomed and driving artist on a very simple member level and we worked great together. We would love to see if we could change her ban to ban from lead (forever) for that reason. And by the way we could also reduce the tensions with other teams and make everyone calm down. Big part of au did not like the decision to ban her completely, too, which is partly the reason now why au lost sympathy, and there is not much pat can do against it.

I think we want Skyrim modding not to deconstruct itself but we want to gather and consolidate the community in our halls.

statements on my teams application to change the ban to lead ban for deisabri?

Bellatrix 03-Jul-21 01:39 PM

I can't imagine being convinced to reverse it. She covered up multiple really bad events. We've wasted enough time dealing with bad behaviour this year without letting someone back in who caused a great deal of trouble and damage within BS.

Hannes821 03-Jul-21 01:47 PM

Not reversing at all. Ban is ban

And it’s just for her failings as lead

But not as an artist for some people

Well if you say you could not agree then I have tried and my team has that wish so I had to

And i also think it would help in this current rivalry and it could be fair. But that’s maybe just me, and we all can have different opinions that’s fair

Bellatrix 03-Jul-21 01:49 PM

I don’t see her behaving any differently if she was ‘just’ a member and found something untoward was being done by someone she liked. Sorry but no, that’s appallingly bad judgement and dangerous for BS.

Hannes821 03-Jul-21 01:52 PM

I accept it, we would all have to agree.

Understand and legitimate.

I mean she doesn’t have to „watch“ her co members but I understand

Hannes821 03-Jul-21 03:01 PM

I admit „we have spend enough time on her“ doesn’t explain why she can’t be regular member who is just painting, and will not convince my department Leads, so any rational points help. But in the end it doesn’t change a thing if you let it stand. I think we depend on being fair and inclusive and everyone we bring up against us does Damage us, but I am just one of many here.

LeftoverPat 03-Jul-21 04:06 PM

@Hannes821 we've discussed similar with the AU, like a pardon on her 1 year ban day. she would not be allowed as teacher, but would be allowed to critique and stuff. her actions would not be excused, but it would be an olive branch. but after dealing with everything today in hours of vc & teacher lounge, i'm totally convinced that i don't think it's a good idea. enough people feel strongly against her that it would create more rifts in BS, and the AU. I spent the entirety of my last two days in various VCs listening to both sides, and trying to make people feel heard. i feel like we are making progress. i've also spoken to amicus and his associates, asking them to not recruit someone on artstation, or linkedin, or wherever, if they know they are associated with beyond skyrim (except if friends). not just because of poaching rule (which seemed misinterpreted) but because of respect at this point. Tyber and Pedro have agreed to help enforce this. most i've spoken to on both sides are in agreement that we shouldnt burn small projects, even if it's deisabri connected, even if it's just in our dev servers. simply because of the way word gets out, how devs talk, and how project-burning gets linked to BS. unless they do something very very wrong against us. even then we should consider staying out of it. but deisabri is a hugely contentious issue still. i respect everyone as their own modder, but yeah TL;DR i'm convinced pardoning Deisabri would not be a path to healing as I might have once thought. (edited)

so yah i would recommend against it for Atmora, AU, or any project who banned her (edited)

there are other ways to throw an olive branch

Bellatrix 03-Jul-21 04:40 PM

I’m confused about the poaching thing. There’s nothing to stop people on other modding projects from talking to people who work on BS about working for them too. Especially if they’re on artstaion . I mean heck the whole point of art station is to advertise yourself. People shouldn’t really be recruiting directly from within BS for other projects but even that’s a grey area. I know (MrJGT for example - and it’s just an example this has not happened) works on mods outside BS, we’re also good friends. I don’t think him asking me if I was interested in helping out on an outside BS mod would inappropriate or something we could ban. I do think that recruiting wholesale for another project is though.

And no we shouldn’t be burning small projects. We don’t trash talk other mods. That’s the kind of stuff that gives people a very very bad name in the wider community. What the actual heck is going on.

LeftoverPat 03-Jul-21 05:36 PM

Triumvirate talked about the poaching thing today too. Amongst ourselves and with other members in open forum vc. some ppl consider it a very hard definition that - yes, you are taking someone from a project for your own project, no matter where. but imo it's so grey in these outer-BS instances. it's different than walking into Cyrodiil general and advertising your project. Or going down the list of AU teachers and DMing every single one asking to spend less time in the AU and join your thing (edited)

just... very forgivable to me. esp if we reach out expressing our discomfort, which i now have.

most seemed in agreement to this after explaining

Hannes821 03-Jul-21 07:41 PM

Okay thanks for your insight Pat, very good and important points, you are right.

LeftoverPat 05-Jul-21 07:24 PM

To be transparent, i want to inform that Sotha Sil has been demoted from his moderator role in the AU. I request no action, and encourage no action taken against him on any project, to be clear. Only informing. In mediating open forum, he insulted Kettle in voice text for associating with Deisabri (comments we've since removed), then broke rules by talking ill of Thras as a partner project in a manner we found very inappropriate. We decided this broke two of our rules. As a Teacher, we have decided to warn. As a mod, we removed the role. We made a statement some time ago in teacher lounge essentially marking Deis a political subject. I'm happy to elaborate why if you wish. Anyway, he refused to apologize for his conduct and explicitly said he would do it again if he saw anybody supporting Deisabri, so we did not feel this fit for a mod in the AU to preserve the peace. He has blocked anyone he felt associated with her so that's a step he took, to his credit. I see no issue him remaining Moderator or Lead anywhere else, just wanted to be transparent inc it comes up. (edited)

Hannes821 05-Jul-21 11:22 PM

I should probably inform him he has to ban me too, just to be correct

Hannes821

I should probably inform him he has to ban me too, just to be correct

LeftoverPat 05-Jul-21 11:23 PM

What do u mean?

Hannes821 05-Jul-21 11:23 PM

Ah nothing

Just that I am having a very normal relationship with deisabri. If he blocks people that talk with her

Not a serious comment

Ignore me

I meant block not ban

Sorry it’s early here

LeftoverPat 05-Jul-21 11:44 PM

I've generally distanced but generally on good terms too

Hannes821 06-Jul-21 12:45 AM

well i dont talk to her very often actually but, there wasnt any issue

LeftoverPat 06-Jul-21 06:39 PM

@here I've been contacted by Amicus, asking to share a formal complaint to the BS Council regarding Rob/Dronon's post against Stormcrow. I've agreed to share it, but I'm not sure we're obligated to take any action, especially since they are non-BS. I've reminded him this. It's our right to ignore or not. In summary - He makes a case against each point in the announcements - He requests a formal apology - He says it would be nice if the post were removed - He feels his project's reputation has been disparaged for something he didn't do, and lays out why Frankly I've been dealing with all of this basically full time for the last week all while trying to hold the AU together so I'm very emotionally exhausted at this point where it's bled into personal life too much. But I've agreed to share it with us as a final move before ceasing to entertain it. I suppose if anyone here now it's @Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) s jurisdiction in relation to Elsweyr, and I will respect anything that's decided, unconditionally. In relation to other projects, I'd just continue to encourage being careful about what we say about non-BS projects moving forward. Though as it is addressed to us, I'd encourage a read or skim.

StormCrow_BS_Council_Letter.pdf

462.27 KB

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 06-Jul-21 11:48 PM

There's not really a lot to go on here. Even when there's evidence presented it's not really evidence. It's asking that you take a lot on faith in the presenter and not really giving anything that can be followed up on. I'll follow up with Rob later and we'll discuss it, but with this I don't really see evidence to take action on.

2

Hannes821 07-Jul-21 01:22 AM

Rob also told me if there was a vote he might return for that vote (and leave again)

Hannes821 07-Jul-21 04:04 AM

I would personally love to have the tamriel world map back on our website, to explain people in a split second visually what we do. I just think its a clever thing

what do you think?

LeftoverPat 07-Jul-21 05:26 AM

i wouldnt hate that; or perhaps an undarkening of whats already there

Bellatrix 07-Jul-21 05:59 AM

This all seems very silly. @Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) it’s definitely worth having a chat with rob about not trashing other projects especially in semi-public areas. We’ve always tried to run a ‘if you can’t say anything nice don’t say anything’ approach and this fallout is why. It’s pretty out of character for rob, he’s usually super diplomatic.

Hannes821 07-Jul-21 07:26 AM

If it’s already been circulating we should officially talk about our response to that letter

And rob should join us again

Please

StormCrow_BS_Council_Letter.pdf

462.27 KB

i was made aware of this

and i cannot ignore it, its adressing us in public and we need to find an elaborate response

(its not from me, i got it from another lead of bs)

to robs defense, this is mostly speculation and desinformation (likely) i dont know the details

but i guess we want to answer them.

i invited rob back in

i dont know how trustworthy these people are, or their claims, and i personally trust rob more than most people overall

but if that gets public we need a response

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 07-Jul-21 07:37 AM

Usually I like to look at things and try to see how everyone might be right. Frankly that ended when I found out that they posted this.

Notably, this is just rude.

Nothing here is verifiable. Rob has different screen shots of what happened in the first scenario. As for Rob's messages, there's no timeline included or a mention of who to follow up with so I'm not even inclined to treat it as evidence. The third point, they're going out of their way to prove Rob right atm, so

‍♂️ .

I don't think Rob's coming back here, but he will write up a rebuttal. I kind of feel bad asking since this is so shoddy.

Hannes821 07-Jul-21 09:39 AM

yes, he said he gives you his points.

for me, its just important we have a proper response to not stand in a bad light.

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 07-Jul-21 09:59 AM

I'm half way to saying that this is dropped because they immediately took it public. That's really unacceptable if they really wanted an investigation.

Hannes821 07-Jul-21 11:27 AM

and now it is out there and then we need to reason in public with them, unpleasent

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 07-Jul-21 12:27 PM

I think we need a rebuttal but I don't really see that reasoning will help. I don't think they're acting in good faith and that's an issue (edited)

I think a hard line that if you bring something to the council you need to give us time to actually deal with it before going public.

After we responded I would expect it to be public, but at this stage they poisoned the investigation before it started. (edited)

I can write a rebuttal if people want, but I think others have a better sense of what the community needs.

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr)

I'm half way to saying that this is dropped because they immediately took it public. That's really unacceptable if they really wanted an investigation.

LeftoverPat 07-Jul-21 01:16 PM

Did they take it public? Only I, Hannes, and they should have this pdf. And us now. Or are we talking about the announcement I'm confused now

(edited)

I didn't get the impression they were asking for an investigation, just an apology

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 07-Jul-21 01:30 PM

They didn't give enough time for that and if they present evidence we need time to look into it.

I've heard it's going public but I haven't seen it out there

I think it's ridiculous to think we'd take this at face value and not do our due diligence on it before responding.

Especially since it looks like some of this is misrepresented at best.

It feels like a hit job and not a real request.

If it's gone public that is.

Hannes821 07-Jul-21 02:12 PM

i had the impression they wanted to use this publicly to force us to make an apology.

as far as i know rob is writing a response, and we should consider if/what we say as BS (if they adress us, and i think they do)

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 07-Jul-21 02:35 PM

Yeah I'm disenclined to acquiesce to that request.

I'm not going to be bullied into an apology. That's just rude, and showing that they are rude means that Rob was right on the money in his statement.

LeftoverPat 07-Jul-21 06:17 PM

I've just reached out to all 3 authors (Amicus, Tyber, Savage) to ensure the complaint's privacy. They named three close friends they shared it with for opinions and agreed to ensure their complicity. Only the authors, their 3 close friends (which did not include Deisabri, I will add), AU Triumvirate, and BS Council should be aware of the contents of this PDF. They reiterated their intention is just to send this to BS Council, not as a public statement.

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 08-Jul-21 03:57 PM

One thing I think it's missed is Rob's mention of art credit wasn't really directed at them but more a best practices reminder. (edited)

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr)

One thing I think it's missed is Rob's mention of art credit wasn't really directed at them but more a best practices reminder. (edited)

LeftoverPat 08-Jul-21 04:15 PM

It also appears that they are using people's concept art without giving them appropriate credit. Whether this is true or just a coincidence that the art on their "team page" has art without artists logos / signatures on them, we would recommend strongly that everyone watermark their work when they publish it anywhere.

I can see that perspective - that Rob is just trying to keep his team protected - but i don't see eye-to-eye if we're trying to justify the statement. Especially in context of a "do not trust this project" statement, it's implying much more, whether Rob intended it or not. They've also stated in the complaint that full credit was given in the descriptions, barring no watermark on the artists' works. So again, I don't agree they deserved this.

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 08-Jul-21 04:15 PM

I am trying to be patient.

LeftoverPat 08-Jul-21 04:16 PM

I understand. I appreciate it. I'm trying to be diplomatic, feeling in the middle of it all

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 08-Jul-21 04:17 PM

I do agree it's grey, but I think their approach to the watermark is a pretty questionable one. It's not Amicus projects, it's Stormcrow Projects, and you have to know ArtStation to find the sidebar. (Maybe it's just me, but I was lurking around there for months before I found the sidebar, and still sometimes forget it's there.)

LeftoverPat 08-Jul-21 04:17 PM

Their artstation use was very nooby, i will agree with that much

LeftoverPat

I've just reached out to all 3 authors (Amicus, Tyber, Savage) to ensure the complaint's privacy. They named three close friends they shared it with for opinions and agreed to ensure their complicity. Only the authors, their 3 close friends (which did not include Deisabri, I will add), AU Triumvirate, and BS Council should be aware of the contents of this PDF. They reiterated their intention is just to send this to BS Council, not as a public statement.

Hannes821 09-Jul-21 09:15 AM

thats very helpful to resolve this conflict and prevent damage, thank you

i think they did not use good practice, they should. and protecting the values of our artists has worth; but also its not good to imply or risk a perceieved negative implication on other projects. Yes, they may work with different standards, but we need to be careful not to look down on them or assume criminal energy when they are just not careful. We have to assume good faith amongst ourselves and we should try to be a role model also on the public front. I think its more like some personal bad faith between individuals, i am happy if this doesnt shape the way we work with each other, since we should continue.

frankly. i know rob and deisabri well (and amicus a bit), they all have their edges. However, whats most important is that we can have our rob back, he is very important for stability in my book. He is very experienced and reasonable.

1

i mean lets not forget, dronon and deisabri were the central conflict in the last investigation there, its not something that should influence such big teams as a whole.

Bellatrix 09-Jul-21 10:17 AM

Sorry. For obvious reasons I’ve not really had time to do anything for the past day or so! I’m not sure why this has been brought to the council TBH. Rob should definitely have been more diplomatic but they’ve not demonstrably got to the point where we need to be involved. I’m not loving this trend to come running to us as a first step rather than the last resort it’s supposed to be.

Hannes821 09-Jul-21 11:09 AM

absolutely understandable. and in comparison its really a small issue. However, if we are adressed as council from leads of another dev team (and i also assumed this would soon be public) it is our duty to prepare a proper reaction to prevent any damage from bs. in that sense. I also informed Rob about it as early as i could.

Now i think if they dont push further, any public response is not necessary. We will see what rob says, and if we make a council answer or not. But this is preventive de-escalation; we should tell them that we in general do not want to put them in a negative light.

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 09-Jul-21 03:57 PM

Here's the response I got from Rob. Some of the original complaint, especially poaching, looks a bit disingenuous.

Complaint.odt

4.4 MB

Meglos (Morrowind) 09-Jul-21 04:11 PM

Uh, can't open that file, whatever format that is

LeftoverPat 09-Jul-21 04:12 PM

google doc or pdf would be preferred, yes

only program that opens for me is wordpad. i think its an apple format

I converted to PDF

RobComplaintResponse.pdf

5.23 MB

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 09-Jul-21 05:00 PM

Thanks @LeftoverPat

LeftoverPat 09-Jul-21 06:13 PM

I do have opinions on Rob's response but will let others respond first to avoid saturating my investment in this

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 10-Jul-21 12:02 AM

I'd like to hear others opinions too. I feel like I've prattled on a bit lately.

Hannes821 10-Jul-21 05:06 AM

There is a project opportunity, identified by our (edit: Pan BS) PR department, and rob delegated the task to me to present this idea. I asked argor about it, and this is what i understand: There is a CK Mod con, and it will contain all major skyrim (and next year, Fallout) projects; playing at the anniversary of skyrim. The idea is to do a stream and introduce a bit what we do there. with a time slot of roughly 30 mins to 1 hour for all of our projects combined. The whole thing is very flexible and there is no fix shape required. The idea is more a "meet and come together" to increase visibility range overall for our community. I was given a note sheet: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OksY71UGOuVhdH494D13iNGG-2RSvGUJv9hF9alU3WU/edit?usp=sharing Do you think we could do that? @everyone (edited)

Modding Convention Ideas

What projects? Beyond Skyrim TES Renewal (Skyblivion, Skywind, Morroblivion) AU [Future] Fallout Miami [Future] Fallout London [Future] Fallout Capital Wasteland [Future] Fallout New Vegas Remake [Minor/Mention] NU [The inevitable Starfield giant mod project 0_o] Pre event: Teaser video, 30 sec...

2

we would be in a very dominant first slot in the overal line up

but we could also represent the full CK community with a few smaller projects and skywind / skyblivion in total

Bellatrix 10-Jul-21 09:40 AM

I’ve vaguely heard about it. Sounds good.

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 10-Jul-21 09:42 AM

That sounds good to me.

Hannes821 10-Jul-21 01:33 PM

Oh it’s also planned to be annual

LeftoverPat 10-Jul-21 02:52 PM

would love to help brainstorm this as well. i watched the CK3 modcon specifically for ideas. I really like how they had 3 days, and each day had a large mod, and a few smaller ones. This could pair really well with the network we have. So like for example Day 1: Skyblivion, Cathnoquey, Skyrim Extended Cut, small mod 1, small mod 2. Day 2: Skywind, Alinor, Esroniet, small mod 1, small mod 2, etc. Day 3: All Beyond Skyrim (edited)

i love the idea of bringing more than just mod showcasing too, like AToMM lectures or talks with ppl like Gopher or Zaric

So to begin enacting this, we reach out to all major keynotes (Skyblivion, Skywind, all BS, i'm thinking?), pick a date, and confirm it, and build the event around that.

Basically, yes. high approval from me (edited)

CK also had one emcee for all the days. Maybe we could have 2 emcees per day (edited)

LeftoverPat

I converted to PDF

LeftoverPat 11-Jul-21 02:20 PM

I guess I'll respond to it. I don't have much. Rob's response doesn't really convince me that the Amicus announcement wasn't over-presumptuous of intention. In fact, his evidence just reaffirms it for me. I am willing to go page by page if youd like. Rob has justified why he felt skeptical, but the arguments of why he took the next step to assert these as truths fall very weak to me. I assume his argument is that skepticism was enough to feel justified in this "warning" to his team, but I disagree. Malicious intention was way too presumed for it to deserve the statement as it was written. I will never judge anyone's feelings on Deisabri, but the statement is still unjustifiably charged to me, and represents us as a whole. As for what to do, I don't really care that we take down. Or apologize. Or make a statement. Just peace enough to know that we are more careful in the future. What we say about any project, no matter how "private" the server is, we need to assume it will get out and affect our image.

Bellatrix 11-Jul-21 02:24 PM

I know it’s too late but this is why I didn’t want the AU opened up to other projects on the first place. We’ve got an entirely irrelevant spat between one of our leads and a project I’d literally never heard of until it all kicked off. I just don’t have the energy or motivation to be dealing with this. TBH this is the AUs problem to sort out until it escalates to the point where you can’t.

LeftoverPat 11-Jul-21 02:25 PM

Believe me, partner projects opening up has been the single greatest nightmare for AU lol

it's really fun but has its downsides

nobody is happy because alum dont get spread enough

Internally, it's been somewhat dealt with already - unfortunately only in the way that Rob & Sotha left the server (sotha after we warned him and demo'd)

nobody concerned in this is actually in the AU except Tyber, actually

I'm just middleman cuz we're connected w/ a lot of leads

Bellatrix 11-Jul-21 02:28 PM

In which case why are we even doing this?

LeftoverPat 11-Jul-21 02:28 PM

Half our active community also left with Deisabri at the time, so i also worked hard to keep good relations with them when I came in, in hopes they slowly come back (they have)

Bellatrix 11-Jul-21 02:29 PM

Surely the right response was a shrug and ‘take it up with rob’?

LeftoverPat 11-Jul-21 02:29 PM

This is all in response to Rob's Elsweyr post - a small project feeling upset about it - and coming to me about it

Yeah I agree council shouldnt be used as a pillow when something goes wrong

I think it all just colluded because the post was initially made in this channel, and discussion on our opinions on such things which spurred was important (edited)

RE: "why not take it up with rob" i think a mediary was important here, and i agreed to act as it. Amicus's complaint was just a letter addressed to us. (edited)

Bellatrix 11-Jul-21 02:33 PM

Yea but it’s inappropriate to get the council involved.

LeftoverPat 11-Jul-21 02:34 PM

Fair point. should we accept letters from projects like that if they have formal complaint in the future?

Bellatrix 11-Jul-21 02:35 PM

There’s literally nothing for us to do here. A project I’ve never heard of has shonky crediting practises. Rob was overly forceful in dealing with it. We’ve told him he should have been more diplomatic, job done.

LeftoverPat

Fair point. should we accept letters from projects like that if they have formal complaint in the future?

Bellatrix 11-Jul-21 02:36 PM

If it’s laughably irrelevant, as in this case, no. If it’s showing the standard of evidence and seriousness of complaint we usually open investigations for then yes.

LeftoverPat 11-Jul-21 02:37 PM

"Too soon" maybe but perhaps a form of olive-branching can be in form of giving them a 10min slot in our ModCon somewhere, if we end up having long days & looking for smaller projects to fill with. just an idea, but better discus for PR server

we wouldn't owe it to them of course, but just came to mind

Bellatrix 11-Jul-21 02:42 PM

Yeah. I mean we shouldn’t be trash talking other projects, but at the same time I’m not going to waste my time dealing with them whinging about essentially nothing. Especially not given the past history with Deis and the damage she did to BS. No reason to have a spat or not include them in the ModCon though.

2

Bellatrix

I know it’s too late but this is why I didn’t want the AU opened up to other projects on the first place. We’ve got an entirely irrelevant spat between one of our leads and a project I’d literally never heard of until it all kicked off. I just don’t have the energy or motivation to be dealing with this. TBH this is the AUs problem to sort out until it escalates to the point where you can’t.

Hannes821 11-Jul-21 05:51 PM

the lead you talk about though was active/is active in third party teams and this conflict would have arisen anyways, no matter if we would have opened au or not.

Bellatrix

Yea but it’s inappropriate to get the council involved.

Hannes821 11-Jul-21 05:52 PM

sorry they adressed us.

how can we say "we dont care" when our name is on the letter.

not saying that we can do anything, but we also cannot ignore and act as if it doesnt exist.

Bellatrix

There’s literally nothing for us to do here. A project I’ve never heard of has shonky crediting practises. Rob was overly forceful in dealing with it. We’ve told him he should have been more diplomatic, job done.

Hannes821 11-Jul-21 05:53 PM

i agree with you in general though.

And yes, we should be aware of what even small projects think, if our credibility as modding community is attached to the topic.

and sadly they draw many people from us. we shouldnt loose these completely.

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 11-Jul-21 08:48 PM

Unfortunately I do see why the council might be the place where other modding groups come to. External diplomacy et al. If we want to be more of a unified group or more of a loose alliance of separate groups is a question. I'm not sure I really want to get into answering that tonight.

I do find it a little ironic that both Amicus and Rob should probably have done their due diligence and checked things a little more before they acted. It's because of that that I'm not sure I feel a need to respond or really have anyone apologize. Frankly the biggest reason not to poach members is so you don't create responses like this. If you want to play nice with other modding groups you go out of your way to make sure you don't look like you're actively recruiting people who are active in other groups. You need to let them come to you so your hands are clean.

I did find the complaint really lacking in any real evidence that contributed to their points.

If you want to show someone was trying to poach people you need dates.

I'm not sure how much trouble one can cause in one group before we should take that to other groups though, but this did seem heavy handed on Rob's part.

Hannes821 12-Jul-21 06:15 AM

i think we are good now. maybe we can point out this was an individual evaluation. maybe we dont need to.

just if there is a need to de escalate

but as you say, we would tell amicus, same goes for him

so he cant really feel offended#

LeftoverPat 12-Jul-21 12:45 PM

Agree we are good now, and appreciate the points @Samurai Healer (Elsweyr). I can either draft a short message to Amicus + [Savage/Tyber] on behalf of me, or on behalf of council, and run it by here. Unless someone else wanna do it (edited)

2

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 12-Jul-21 01:10 PM

That works for me, if it's not too much trouble.

LeftoverPat 13-Jul-21 11:48 PM

Reading back it definitely sounds like my perspective, so please edit away.

Dear Stormcrow Projects: Earlier this month, a development server under our umbrella posted a warning to its members about your project. We agree the lead's skepticism was reasonable, but the announcement and insinuations made about your project were too heavy-handed for us to unilaterally support. We've agreed influencing perception of other projects in this way does not represent Beyond Skyrim's projects as a whole, and as such, we've committed discussion to better managing any presumptions of other projects in the future. We have recommended the announcement be removed. However, we would like to make clear that we do not hold jurisdiction over our individual dev servers in this way, and will respect the team's authority should they keep it. We are not opposed to working with you on cross-project events in the future, and wish Stormcrow Projects the best in their endeavors. Thank you for bringing forward your concern. *Beyond Skyrim Lead Council*

(edited)

1

bottom bit * will be bolded

not sure if i should ping all but @Bellatrix @Hannes821 @Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) if you have any edits or approve, since u were involved in discussion, i will feel good we could send

anyone else, ofc too

Bellatrix 14-Jul-21 12:54 AM

If we do anything it has to be by unanimous agreement of the council so @everyone

LeftoverPat 14-Jul-21 12:55 AM

Meglos (Morrowind) 14-Jul-21 01:01 AM

The wording in the final paragraph makes it a bit hard to follow but the message looks good overall

Hannes821 14-Jul-21 01:34 AM

i have nothing to critizise, i think you can go ahead

(for me only)

Bellatrix 14-Jul-21 01:45 AM

I don’t really like the first bit of last paragraph. Think we should make it clear that they’re fine to continue collaborating with us but I’m not sure it warrants an apology from us. Not without them apologising to the council for their bits of unreasonable behaviour anyway.

Hannes821 14-Jul-21 02:52 AM

i understand you, Bellatrix. We should be polite but if we even apologize, we might at least combine it with our expectations towards them not to offensively contact our staff for their own purposes.

LeftoverPat 14-Jul-21 02:56 AM

How might it be reworded?

Bellatrix 14-Jul-21 04:53 AM

Just something g along the line of ‘we look forward to continuing to collaborate with you on the future’

Or we would welcome continuing to collaborate with you in the future.

But I’m pretty against having to apologise for what rob posted because the only reason that post existed is because they were indulging in some pretty bad modding etiquette. No he shouldn’t have been so forceful and we’ve told him that but equally, if they’d been practising good etiquette then how rob dealt with it wouldn’t have needed addressing.

1

LeftoverPat 14-Jul-21 05:40 AM

will edit & try last part again when i wake

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 14-Jul-21 11:01 AM

It kind of bothers me that they're accusing Rob without showing proof. Sure they have a screen shot, but without dates it's a baseless accusation.

I don't like the apology either. At best they did exactly what they're accusing Rob of, not doing their research, and at worse they're intentionally misrepresenting things and guilty of everything Rob mentioned in his post.

It's not like they apologized or were at all conciliatory to their faults here.

At least Rob said he didn't do the research in the post.

I do understand the need for some decorum though.

1

ub3rman123 14-Jul-21 11:15 AM

If we have to say anything, the post above seems the right way to say it.

LeftoverPat 14-Jul-21 01:29 PM

I hear that samurai

Just removed the apology sentence, how's it look?

Meglos (Morrowind) 14-Jul-21 01:37 PM

"We do not root out the idea of considering you for cross-project events in the future" is a bit of an awkward sentence, how about "We are not opposed to working with you on cross-project events in the future" ?

1

LeftoverPat 14-Jul-21 01:45 PM

Good idea. Edited

Bellatrix 14-Jul-21 02:10 PM

Yeah. That’s perfect

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 14-Jul-21 02:11 PM

Looks good to me.

Hannes821 14-Jul-21 03:28 PM

to me too

LeftoverPat

Reading back it definitely sounds like my perspective, so please edit away.

Dear Stormcrow Projects: Earlier this month, a development server under our umbrella posted a warning to its members about your project. We agree the lead's skepticism was reasonable, but the announcement and insinuations made about your project were too heavy-handed for us to unilaterally support. We've agreed influencing perception of other projects in this way does not represent Beyond Skyrim's projects as a whole, and as such, we've committed discussion to better managing any presumptions of other projects in the future. We have recommended the announcement be removed. However, we would like to make clear that we do not hold jurisdiction over our individual dev servers in this way, and will respect the team's authority should they keep it. We are not opposed to working with you on cross-project events in the future, and wish Stormcrow Projects the best in their endeavors. Thank you for bringing forward your concern. *Beyond Skyrim Lead Council*

(edited)

LeftoverPat 16-Jul-21 10:06 AM

@Larrian (Morrowind) @Klime @Rubaedo @Sol @Sage of Ice could I get your approval to send this?

Larrian (Morrowind) 16-Jul-21 10:07 AM

yeah it all looks good to me

Klime 16-Jul-21 01:13 PM

Looks fine to me

Rubaedo 16-Jul-21 01:53 PM

I concur

LeftoverPat 18-Jul-21 12:04 PM

Just need @Sage of Ice & @Sol now

Sage of Ice 18-Jul-21 01:03 PM

Looks fine to me

Sol 18-Jul-21 01:14 PM

Yeah it's good to me too

LeftoverPat 18-Jul-21 02:55 PM

thanks guys

LeftoverPat 18-Jul-21 03:10 PM

On a lighter note, you are all very much invited to this https://discord.gg/eQrrvKBJ6N

Hannes821 01-Aug-21 02:35 PM

Did rob already leave again?

I was just looking to give him the roles

LeftoverPat 01-Aug-21 11:03 PM

same

ah just saw #department_directors

Bellatrix 10-Aug-21 01:16 PM

Does anyone remember if we pulled together the map marker file art from when 1shoe was going to take a look a few years ago?

Hannes821 11-Aug-21 04:52 AM

i just gave him links

but we added it to our AU wiki and all since then

(for the implementation and the files we have at atmora)

Bellatrix 14-Aug-21 03:18 AM

Someone’s been spamming BS members with this and I’m not sure what to make of it?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/862369923774283786/876015852007329802/Screenshot_20210814_141102_com.png

ub3rman123 14-Aug-21 09:20 AM

Kind of an oddly specific request but I don't see anything malicious to it.

Bellatrix 14-Aug-21 09:23 AM

I thought it was weird but probably harmless until were just pointed out the user name is ‘something we can’t make out’ penis lover but in Chinese(?) font so it’s not obvious (edited)

Now I think it’s not a good idea for people to be handing out info that can be linked to them individually to whoever it is.

Hannes821 14-Aug-21 09:55 AM

i was asked a few times

and found the person in community outpost

they had this idea to show how much impact we have had with secondary projects over the years

if it was done right it would be quite impressive, but the way this person just approached people scared a few off and they didnt explain well

per se it was intended to gain visibility for BS, so i think the intentions are good

i wouldnt have time to do such a move myself either lol

Bellatrix 20-Aug-21 01:42 AM

Have you seen the AE announcement? Current thinking on Cyrodiil from what we know from the press release is we’ll stay on SE and patch for the AE release to incorporate the CC.

Sounds like it’s just SE + CC stuff anyway so not like LE to SE switch.

ub3rman123 20-Aug-21 08:25 AM

We've been talking about that on IB, our best guess is that it's just a bundle of SE + CC stuff, not really a new version.

Bellatrix 20-Aug-21 09:39 AM

Yeah. Sounds like your best guess is the same as our best guess.

Hannes821 21-Aug-21 11:39 AM

Compatible, very likely. Overall sse formate should work for the features we know of so far.

We can be very happy that Bethesda still promotes it like a good old wine

It will certainly help us, so i am excited about seeing this and promoting it

ub3rman123 22-Aug-21 10:38 PM

I just saw 1shoed applied to IB as a writer. Can someone confirm it's actually him and that he's doing all right?

Bellatrix 23-Aug-21 01:50 AM

It’s actually him. Have no idea if he’s doing alright.

He’s out of hospital though and he’s helping Roscrea out a bit so we’ll see how it goes.

LeftoverPat 23-Aug-21 11:33 PM

He's asked for a writing claim on Ros. I've DMd him and will start him off on something small, assuming he responds. If you're uncomfortable (or not) with him on your project - that is your choice to make and will be respected either way

LeftoverPat 26-Aug-21 09:05 PM

He was pretty normal in writers meeting vc today. I Had everyone share their claim. Ngl I tensed up when he said "i don't know if you guys have seen this video.... about..." And then he just talked about Icelandic baking practices relative to his farm

(edited)

No worries so far

Hannes821 27-Aug-21 05:23 AM

i think he regrets it. and everyone would, spending so much energy in bs, right?

i would be super happy to have him back, when you all feel that is "safe"

oh and i still also try to get rob back here

we need to work on everything together, no doubt about that

Bellatrix 27-Aug-21 08:13 AM

I don't think 1shoe will be back as a cyrodiil lead. He resigned from his post and we talked about it as a lead team and we need a different co-lead. Even before the breakdown, he's not been around and certainly not leading for several years and all the organisational side he's decided he hates (which is a shame because he was good at it) so he'd just be getting the role back as a figurehead and that's not fair on anyone.

Writing for a few projects is probably the best way for him to be active on BS for the foreseeable future.

Hannes821 27-Aug-21 03:31 PM

Ah okay i didnt know that

I assumed it was different. Fair enough then, you will do whatever is best!

Bellatrix 09-Sep-21 03:56 AM

Just as an FYI. 1shoe resigned his writing claims on Roscrea again having done no work on them so I’d operate under the assumption that you won’t get much / anything out of him in terms of content at the moment.

1

LeftoverPat 25-Sep-21 06:37 PM

I'm not really familiar with the history of how past projects have been "worthy" of joining BS but... why hasn't VW/Alinor been admitted to BS? Topic was loosely brought up in CYR's #random. They're both well past pre-production, and VW already uses CYR's worldspace. They just got a massively tight writing team. It seems inevitable. What hoops do they still need to go through?

Are we waiting for Roscrea/Atmora to release so there are less BS projects to work on?

Hannes821 26-Sep-21 01:44 AM

So originally everyone had to agree

And they did since we came with a full external team additionally

Now, it was always a worry to accept new teams and then loosing staff from existing teams

But honestly i dont think we do loose people when we have new teams with so many new members, nor does it have overall negative impact on us

I am already right now the last active implementer at the moment since others have real life commitments. Even If i would assume i could loose people which i clearly dont, i wouldnt have someone left to loose right now

So the rule that it should be new people was from black Marsh being opened and closed again, and i think once before 2017 that also happened with roscrea

However now, and this is long overdo, if Beyond Skyrim wants to survive the waves of time, we have to get into a strategic spot representing all of Nirn on paper, claiming a universal relevancy for elderscrolls modding

Not only new people but a systematic alliance

I was always in favour of having new teams and said so to everyone

However the leads of valenwood and alinor first felt maybe shy or afraid of applying and getting a negative response, but in the meantime they might even think they are better off without us

which is not good for us as beyond Skyrim

So we cannot even be sure that they still seriously try to join us

I would like to know If you share these considerations or disagree. (edited)

In my opinion, the consequence is that we need to get active and invite them.

@everyone how do you think about beyond Skyrim and new teams alinor /valenwood? See above

Bellatrix 26-Sep-21 02:05 AM

I’ve always opposed it and my view isn’t going to change any time soon. We need to release some things before we add more projects. Our public reception to the past few project starts was poor for that reason.

Meglos (Morrowind) 26-Sep-21 02:17 AM

I'd tend to agree with Bellatrix here. Maybe once we have Roscrea, the NN, 3K or Atmora out (preferably more than one of those) we can take on some more but it would definitely be seen in a negative light by the public if we were to do so now

Hannes821 26-Sep-21 02:43 AM

I dont understand the releation and connection between more wip Projects and the very bad performance of our existing projects except for cyrodiil. We all know the reason is that our core teams get inactive over time through fluctuation, and that it wouldnt have any impact on other teams. So this false impression just has to be explained to fans, but every FAQ and frequent Reddit threats cover anyway why merging teams doesnt do any good to us (edited)

So what you are saying here is an argument of pr convenience towards a very small minority of people who dont care enough about us to read the FAQ (edited)

Its our job to explain our goals and methods, and i certainly do. And its our job to build a foundation of this organisation, hobby or not, so that it can get to fruition in the long run, regardless of the contemporary conditions. (edited)

We all know that there is not such a correlation on work level between Teams

Is there any other reason that i could understand and agreed to against invitation of new teams?

Bellatrix 26-Sep-21 02:50 AM

I think you’ve just undermined your own point Hannes. I’m not sure how successful cyrodiil is vs the other projects but it’s certainly the first one to release anything and both me and 1shoe when he was cyrodiil co lead have always been dead set against adding more projects. I didn’t even want to add the last two. And the reason for that is anything that damages our public perception of people who can deliver causes long term harm to our ability to recruit good people. What’s the point I’m pouring your effort into something you perceive won’t ever release…? There is none.

My position has always been when we have a couple of releases under our belt then that’s the time to add more projects.

Hannes821 26-Sep-21 03:03 AM

I understand, you think that people who say "they will not release anyway" are not going to join. Thats true.

But, arent we already in that spot and getting closer there every month?

Like, on a scale of puplic reception, do you think that we could be "worse" in the eyes of fans and modders as potential partners in terms of completition (except cyrodiil)

I could make the point that its a Life sign to have actions going on,

At this point the positive effect at least in my perhaps wrong perception absolutely outweights such considerations that more Teams mean delay of established projects

In the end it also depends on how people like us in general, If they read something as a chance or a risk.

But here again only people who like us will ever join, AND we have Ratio on our side that the perhaps negative impression is wrong

So If its about recruiting, we end up in a character study of people who want to Mod Skyrim in 2021 and Beyond

And those people wouldnt feel the way you are afraid of, i am certain

Those people Mod because they want to be Game developers or artists or they have a long History with Hobby mods and Just believe in it

We dont get random casual people testing modding the first time these days

People most angry on our late releases are fans that had high expectations to play but dont consider making it, so they pushed us

Hannes821 26-Sep-21 04:28 AM

I See You still think that general reputation would suffer more than it gains, apparently.

Its not like we in persona have to finish and sign off each project alltogether. They are managed by their teams and all we do is look at the chance of their success and our own goals as beyond Skyrim. Not as individuals.

Bellatrix

My position has always been when we have a couple of releases under our belt then that’s the time to add more projects.

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Sep-21 04:59 AM

For what it's worth, this is currently my take as well

more projects will just encourage more questions about divided labour etc. etc. which are generally exhausting to deal with

not to mention all the other reasons listed

which is to say I do respect those teams and their work, but I just don't think right now is really the right time to be adding more projects to BS

LeftoverPat 26-Sep-21 01:32 PM

BS people already apply to those projects and almost everyone is aware of them. I don't think it's necessary to put policies in place because we're worried what others will do. People will join the projects they want. Maybe more BS members will join and spread themselves thin but that's not up to us to decide. They already favor non-BS ppl who apply, I don't think that has to change when they join BS. People spreading labor thin is already an issue, but almost nobody has more than 3 they're on at once. So I'm not convinced this will worsen that too much. That is the responsibility of the modder, not us. For public perception, I also don't think this matters as much as we'd think. We showcase, we're transparent, there's not much more we can do. Cyrodiil bruma was rough around the edges but I don't see what waiting for roscrea will benefit to such a degree that we need to block Valenwood out. If anything I think it'll cause less political issue with VW, since they're already planning to use heartlands and are pretty well established

Just seems pointless to delay the inevitable.

Bellatrix 26-Sep-21 01:37 PM

For what it’s worth VWs entire strategy is around only applying when we’ve released a few more. Mostly because their leadership are largely experienced BS leads and lived through the last 3 project starts. We discussed this on cyrodiil lead cha#t this morning and the position hasn’t changed.

LeftoverPat 26-Sep-21 01:41 PM

It's really mutual so if that's the case it's a different story, I'd agree. Though I do still strongly agree with hannes that we're probably in a better position at accepting than we think when their desire comes

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr) 26-Sep-21 02:53 PM

I lean towards letting them in. Talent seems to come in mainly because they love one province, and sometimes join others, so I think there's more to be gained by having them involved than there is lost by looking, to some, that we're too spread out.

3

Larrian (Morrowind)

not to mention all the other reasons listed

Hannes821 26-Sep-21 03:26 PM

Which Others?

Larrian (Morrowind)

more projects will just encourage more questions about divided labour etc. etc. which are generally exhausting to deal with

Hannes821 26-Sep-21 03:28 PM

Pr annoyance exclusively. But not necessarily correlating with reputation and recruiting, as i said and assume, Claire.

Rob Just learned or believes he wouldnt have a Chance to even be accepted

And thats mainly because he thinks there is a second valenwood Team started by MW Team leads Long Time ago.

So he would assume that MW would never confirm a rival Project

Is that true, Team morrowind?

Now that we are under us, you can freely talk about it. Does it still exist?

I was always in favour for merging our small capacity efforts

But i understand under certain historical circumstances those agreements might be very hard to achieve

If that was not true and a missunderstanding, we might be better off sorting this out and re-uniting forces as beyond Skyrim

Hannes821

And thats mainly because he thinks there is a second valenwood Team started by MW Team leads Long Time ago.

Meglos (Morrowind) 26-Sep-21 04:59 PM

I have no idea where this rumour started but it's absolutely not true

Hannes821 26-Sep-21 05:00 PM

Okay

Well that makes everything more simple.

But i mean If you or some of you are convinced that taking in new teams is not advantageous, then thats what we do (not do, in this case).

And as you mentioned before, its also a Question towards the Teams If they want to jojn

I believe some time ago Rob told me that there was more than one valenwood team

I never went into the Details

I was Just asking him why it was outside Bs

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Sep-21 07:14 PM

Yeah that is not a thing and idk how that rumor got started

Hannes821 26-Sep-21 07:32 PM

I should rephrase, supported by morrowind.

Not a second team started by mw

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Sep-21 07:32 PM

Ruba spoke to them like, once

as far as I know

this isn't a major thing, there's no Morrowind conspiracy to undermine Valenwood or Alinor or whatever

I helped Alinor get started

Hannes821 26-Sep-21 07:33 PM

However, its not a good sign for BS If personal Likes and dislikes play a role. We should give everyone a chance and seek best results for all involved.

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Sep-21 07:33 PM

I agree

Hannes821 26-Sep-21 07:33 PM

OK great.

@Robcbwilson i am pleased to see you

1

Good night

Larrian (Morrowind) 26-Sep-21 07:40 PM

Anyway, I refer to Bellatrix's listed reasons for hesitance, it has nothing to do with any previously existing inter-personal drama

Samurai Healer (Elsweyr)

I lean towards letting them in. Talent seems to come in mainly because they love one province, and sometimes join others, so I think there's more to be gained by having them involved than there is lost by looking, to some, that we're too spread out.

LeftoverPat 26-Sep-21 08:26 PM

I very second this, if they end up wanting it. Think it's sensible not to gatekeep for more reasons than not

1

we want to limit who we let in of course but VW/Ali are very clear picks now where a year or two ago they wouldnt be

1

esp VW, for the ability to share heartlands/bsassets limitlessly

1

i made my case already for why i dont think the pr fallback is a big issue. If VW doesnt want to join BS yet, that is a different story and we can drop it

1

I also made case for why i dont think there's much to worry about in regards to making the other projects less productive. Though I empathize as we are very restrtictive with AU partner projects due to that disaster. (edited)

1

Hannes821 27-Sep-21 01:55 AM

What Desaster?

Disaster, sorry. Bloody German

Robcbwilson 27-Sep-21 02:30 AM

In terms of allowing new teams to join before the release of Cyrodiil (or at least one of the New North, Roscrea and Atmora), I am against it. As a lead of two of the teams that is looking to apply to join (Alinor and Valenwood), for the last year and a half we have been saying consistently that we won't apply until Cyrodiil is finished. We know how much we need to do to have a solid application and the amount of time before Cyrodiil releases gives us an perfect window to do that. I agree with Meglos, Larrian and Bellatrix on keeping BS to the current teams for the foreseeable future. The reasons for that are three fold: - The first is that there is still a moratorium in place preventing new teams from joining. - The second is our public perception. It has been noticeable over the course of 2021 that the number of posts and questions asking about release dates and the lack of progress (especially around the lack of trailers) have increased. My worry with adding yet more teams is that this will amplify this concern and damage people's faith in releasing our next mod. - Finally, I do believe that introducing new teams will dilute the talent pool at a crucial time for the project (we have the New North, Roscrea and Atmora close to release). It may only be a few key people, but it could seriously derail progress of a mod that is virtually finished in favour of one that is just starting. We would be better to ensure that these release first before adding more teams to BS. (edited)

The second Valenwood team actually started before TES: Valenwood (MrJGT and my team) and was never secret. I was in fact a member for a time before we left (MrJGT and I). This was all almost two years ago. There is no secret team, no secret plot and Morrowind are not trying to sabotage "our" Valenwood (Larrian is correct, he was key in getting Alinor up and running, working on the height map if I recall correctly). When we apply (this also goes for Alinor as well), we expect our applications to be rigorously but fairly examined. We do not expect this to be easy (nor should it be) and we will take any negative feedback on our application and work on it (should there be any) befoe re-applying. With respect to Valenwood in particular being outside of BS, we are actually happy being able to quietly work on getting our pre-release into shape (even without the height map). Joining BS should create significant interest in our mod and we are simply not ready to take that step. Once we join BS, we will be judged against the current projects which are all vastly ahead of us in terms of progress so we need to make sure we can stand up to that scrutiny and comparison before joining. (edited)

Hannes821 27-Sep-21 03:17 AM

well i remember it was said moratorium is lifted for once, but i understand (not agree) to public perception. Finally, your third point: Where is the talent to help me work on atmora, please? What kind of dilution? I am the one who is meant to be protected by this "rule", and let me get this straight: I AM SITTING THERE ALONE AT NIGHT IMPLEMENTING OUR QUESTS AND FIXING BUGS

we get nearly NO support from any bs team

so what is the effect of sprading ourselves thin?

thats all just academic theory

my team cannot get thinner on the department that really matters

so whilst i accept your opinion, i heavily do not think it is reasonable.

if your words of not spreading our capacity were true, i would expect that other teams would actively seek to support the 3

else it is just vanity and an excuse

and no, my implementers did not leave because of our bad team management, i even promoted them to directors and gave them all freedom they want

they simply leave because if they are skilled, there are tons of more rewarding projects they could potentially do out there, with money or newer engines

and thats the key problem here

not new teams.

IF we can do anything, then it is consolidating the TES5 franchise we have by uniting our efforts

to remain relevant at all

i know cyrodiil is different, but i am very sure all of you have seen the fluctuation and slow down as i have heard in all teams (except alinor and valenwood) throughout the bench

and this is exactly the fresh wind we need and the spirit of motion

without it, i tell you, BS will continute to be less vivid and active

except for cyrodiil, of course

implementers need to see all the mannigfold art and gameplay ideas that SKYRIM could offer still in 2021.

we are just fragmenting ourselves and accelerate the decay of the TES5 modding community if this political thinking continues

Hannes821 27-Sep-21 08:20 AM

My hopes to clarify,are that News and Events can provide a starting point for new dynamic growth

New members beyond joining Teams

Robcbwilson 27-Sep-21 08:23 AM

I agree with you. We need organic growth

Which is on every team on BS

With the exception of Cyrodiil who has done a lot of the heavy lifting for us all

2

More than enough

I think Mod Con is a fantastic opportunity to grow the BS (and Skyrim modding brand)

Hannes821 27-Sep-21 08:30 AM

yes.

i will do what i can for helping it

Robcbwilson 27-Sep-21 08:30 AM

Thank you!

Hannes821 27-Sep-21 08:30 AM

maybe adding teams isnt the event i should put my hopes on afterall

Robcbwilson 27-Sep-21 08:30 AM

I would thoroughly recommend getting involved (to anyone not already involved of course)

Hannes821 27-Sep-21 08:31 AM

was there a discord?

Hannes821

maybe adding teams isnt the event i should put my hopes on afterall

Robcbwilson 27-Sep-21 08:31 AM

I genuinely think that it isn't the solution to your problems no

Yes, was an invite put here?

Hannes821 27-Sep-21 08:31 AM

i think so, but some time ago i reduced my discord server count

i am sorry for the inconvenience

maybe you can point me to a link

Robcbwilson 27-Sep-21 08:32 AM

I posted one for you

Hannes821 27-Sep-21 08:48 AM

Thank you very much, as always

Robcbwilson 27-Sep-21 08:49 AM

My pleasure!

Bellatrix 27-Sep-21 11:13 AM

Oh. Suddenly this all makes a bit more sense. Yeah if you thought this would help with implementer recruitment I’d say that’s very very unlikely.

Bellatrix 27-Sep-21 11:21 AM

The thing that’s consistently worked for external recruitment for both cyrodiil and Roscrea is YouTube video and asking for specific skill sets. The one thing I would caveat with is implimenters are rare so that’s been a struggle even for cyrodiil and using that method.

I really agree with Rob though. If you want to target implimenters specifically use modcon as an advertising / hype platform and maybe drop an atmora YouTube video / plea for implimenters two weeks later to rehype.

1

LeftoverPat 27-Sep-21 04:45 PM

on BS umrella-ing - heard @Robcbwilson

LeftoverPat 27-Sep-21 10:38 PM

a point to bring up is that most cross-BS recruitment is usually done by invite, rather than someone waking up and deciding to province swap. Roscrea is a unique example where it's almost entirely cross-BS members, And it wouldn't be where it's at without Claire privately inviting people. But to me that shows even more that people getting stretched thin isn't the real root issue.

It's simply people not interested in applying - or in Roscrea's case - narrative leads who werent actively accepting/responding to apps. Atmora had plenty of fresh writers from the AU in the last year, and continues.

Like claire said, outreach of more members is the main way we're going to avoid that issue.

My duty with getting more Implementer/LD can be in bolstering our AU outreach as a focus next quarter. It's evident there just aren't a lot of them out there.

Robcbwilson 28-Sep-21 02:44 PM

Another way of approaching the lack of implementation people is to ensure that the AU has good detailed documentation the covers as much as possible so that teams can “grow” their own implementers

1

Hannes821 29-Sep-21 02:17 AM

The Mod Organizer 2 Tutorial for instance is a Basis for new people

Too sad we didnt have it Last week

Robcbwilson 29-Sep-21 03:55 AM

Is there a way to access AU documentation without being on the AU server? Asking for a friend

Hannes821 29-Sep-21 08:24 AM

lets get rob back in there as well

rob, you belong there and people are nice

(now)

Bellatrix 29-Sep-21 09:25 AM

On a separate note from if rob joins or not, it might be a nice thing for the community if we hosted any tutorials we have on the website. I say this as someone who learned to mod from a Tes alliance tutorial (well it got me started!)

1

I had a tutorial on DC for setting up ambushes for example. That kind of thing is quite hard to find elsewhere (or it was when I was tying to set up my first one!)

Robcbwilson 29-Sep-21 09:26 AM

That was what I was really after tbh

Tutorials are a lot less powerful and useful if people can't see them

DC had a lot of very useful tutorials back in the day didn't it

1

Very niche some of them, but incredibly helpful

LeftoverPat 29-Sep-21 09:48 AM

Like our YouTube channel?

Au

Bellatrix 29-Sep-21 09:48 AM

I think we can get back to them on the way back machine or Xae’s cache?

Errrm yeah kind of but text based.

Robcbwilson 29-Sep-21 09:50 AM

If they aren't behind the logged in section, the way back machine will work fine

Bellatrix 29-Sep-21 09:51 AM

Ooooh. Good point. We still do have a cache though I think.

Robcbwilson 29-Sep-21 09:52 AM

Do we?

Cool

LeftoverPat 29-Sep-21 10:10 AM

Creating more writeups for the wiki to link would be helpful, aye

Have one coming from skyblivion for LD

Almost done

Neldor has plans for some for imp

Hannes821 29-Sep-21 10:57 AM

the youtube videos and the wiki could be linked directly in the website (integrated visually)

else, most old tutorials we transformed into wiki

basically thats how i pushed to start the wiki, since all our tutrials were gone

and i find that most have been covered thankyfully by AU folks and / or videos on top

Bellatrix 29-Sep-21 11:08 AM

Oh cool. I kind of forget we have the wiki.

If we have the tutorials on there maybe we should advertise them a bit more?

1

Robcbwilson 29-Sep-21 11:15 AM

We definitely should (both advertise / promote it) and also integrate all of the YouTube AU tutorials onto it

@Hannes821 if you get it up to date I will do a PR blitz for you

Hannes821 29-Sep-21 11:16 AM

We tried to.

Haha yes thank you.

So what exactly do you think should be Updated? You mean the Link on our Website?

It should be functional

Its maybe just Out of View - Out of mind :)

I Made a bot command for linking Au Wiki and Other places on my Server, its free and efficient, i can Share that method with you. And Made a links Channel on our server

And basically Spam the Link whenever contents of our wiki are being discussed

Robcbwilson 29-Sep-21 11:19 AM

Is the wiki part of the main BS website?

Hannes821 29-Sep-21 11:27 AM

Let me confirm this quickly, i think so

Au Wiki is integrated in Bs wiki

So If you click there and then Au on the left you get there

I also put our Website in links and in a custom discord bot command

This is where you should land clicking on "Wiki" on our Website, and Au Wiki is there visible on the left

As sub Section. When you click there you Land on the main Page and then we organised it in Departments

Robcbwilson 29-Sep-21 11:33 AM

Perhaps it needs to be more prominent

It feels a bit buried

Hannes821 29-Sep-21 11:51 AM

i absolutely agree.

we added it to the menu on the left though

you should permanently see "Tutorials/ Arcane University" on the left

no matter where you are

maybe its visually not extra emphasized

but the wiki formate makes the page links all consistently look the same of course

Robcbwilson 29-Sep-21 11:55 AM

I see what you mean about the left hand side, but I think it should be more prominently shown in the center panel

It is a small quibble, the content it contains is far more important

Hannes821 29-Sep-21 12:07 PM

yes, absolutely. Its our global "supply pool" of knowledge

Robcbwilson 29-Sep-21 12:08 PM

If yourself and @LeftoverPat come up with some text, I am happy to post it everywhere to increase awareness

And perhaps we do it periodically from now and also when it receives a big update

Hannes821 29-Sep-21 01:05 PM

Sure. Whenever you are looking for insights and inspiration on how to realize your projects with TES5 modding, be sure to visit [Arcane University Wiki] and find out more. You are also welcome to join our team in expanding our knowledge base.

something like that, i suppose

Hannes821 29-Sep-21 03:31 PM

[] for adding the link.

1

Robcbwilson 29-Sep-21 03:36 PM

Once Pat gives it the

I am happy to post it for you

1

Hannes821 29-Sep-21 04:01 PM

for us

LeftoverPat 29-Sep-21 04:24 PM

Looking to create your own TES5 modding projects? Interested in one day joining us or our partners? Visit our [Arcane University Wiki]. (edited)

A bit simpler, wht u think @Hannes821

Hannes821 29-Sep-21 04:46 PM

ye sure

lets do that!

i finally fixed my compiling issue. so happy

we also start a merge this weekend

Hannes821

i finally fixed my compiling issue. so happy

Robcbwilson 30-Sep-21 12:54 AM

That is awesome news ❤️

1

Robcbwilson 30-Sep-21 04:51 AM

Thinking of adding a paragraph as the first comment to go with the link on Reddit

What is the full list of partners? @LeftoverPat

Robcbwilson

What is the full list of partners? @LeftoverPat

LeftoverPat 30-Sep-21 11:26 AM

On http://beyondskyrim.org/au

2

Hannes821 30-Sep-21 11:55 AM

see, rob, all your teams included, now you have to join in au again

haha

Robcbwilson 30-Sep-21 12:16 PM

Ha ha, good try

1

Hannes821 04-Oct-21 05:03 AM

@everyone i had a request by a japanese mod author from the japanese mod database if we could upload bruma there. The reason being that once it is available, more people would translate it. And as you might be familiar, there are countries that have lower English profficiency, but still a vivid Skyrim community, so they could pretty much sustain themselves once they have access to the files from their native platforms.

its the decision of cyrodiil. i would suggest you to.

Hannes821 04-Oct-21 05:13 AM

https://skyrimspecialedition.2game.info/

Skyrim Special Edition Mod データベース MOD紹介・まとめサイト

PC版 Skyrim Special Edition(Skyrim SE) スカイリムスペシャルエディションのModデータベースです。最新MOD情報とレビュー評価。おすすめMODの紹介やMODランキング、MODのバージョンアップ情報、日本語化されたMODを紹介しています。

Robcbwilson 04-Oct-21 05:22 AM

Ah good. Glad that they messaged you as I suggested that they should

1

Bellatrix 04-Oct-21 06:14 AM

I'll check. I can't remember what our policy is on permissions.

3

Hannes821 04-Oct-21 02:25 PM

If i remember correctly, 1shoed once Said that they can do translations as they like. We once discussed this here, search function should help. What was new to me was the request to upload the Projects outside of Nexus. (By us or as included files by translators) we might get clear answers if we look at these specific cases.

Hannes821 04-Oct-21 02:33 PM

So thats basically where we stopped.

They can do translations

Robcbwilson 04-Oct-21 02:34 PM

Yes, I spoke to this person initially on the Nexus and they explained that for Japanese due to a bug they have to install it in a different way

Hannes821 04-Oct-21 02:34 PM

But we didnt explicitely allow Re upload of modified files

1sheod Just Said " the more people the Mod gets to,the better"

Robcbwilson 04-Oct-21 02:34 PM

In this case, it seems reasonable to me if that is what they have to do to get it working

Hannes821 04-Oct-21 02:35 PM

I would be okay for my part to allow it, but this would be the decision of Team cyrodiil of course

1

And maybe we get towards a common sense and practice

Bellatrix 05-Oct-21 04:22 AM

I think it should be fine. Officially our permissions don’t allow it but we’re basically ignoring that for stuff like this.

1

Hannes821 05-Oct-21 05:27 AM

Okay. shall i tell him that he has the permission then?

Hannes821 05-Oct-21 05:54 AM

@Bellatrix

Bellatrix 05-Oct-21 06:12 AM

Yeah.

1

Robcbwilson 05-Oct-21 10:24 AM

Just a heads up, there are streams of the stolen Heartland and Morrowind files still circulating

Probably little we can do

And to be honest as time goes by, these will become less and less interesting as the content ages

Robcbwilson 05-Oct-21 10:38 AM

Screenshot is from the Eribees' server

Not one I am familiar with

From this server https://discord.com/invite/7qBrHPRwUu

Robcbwilson 05-Oct-21 11:07 AM

We have another issue

Monetization was turned on (it appears by accident) on the Nexus

Obviously this needs to be immediately turned off

The other issue is what to do with the money

I suggest we give it to @Bellatrix to cover the cost of the website that she has been paying from her own pocket

Bellatrix 05-Oct-21 11:19 AM

Errrm I stopped doing that awhile ago. I don’t mind. I’m happy just to donate to charity!

Robcbwilson 05-Oct-21 11:19 AM

Ah OK. We should definitely donate it

Shall I opt out all our mods to stop it?

Bellatrix 05-Oct-21 11:25 AM

Yeah. I mean we don’t take payments.

Robcbwilson 05-Oct-21 11:26 AM

Yes, exactly. I will do that now

Done

1

Hannes821 11-Oct-21 07:28 AM

@everyone i Made a support comment under Roscreas Implementation recruiting call Last week and it has been deleted. Others have seen my comment as well.

https://www.reddit.com/r/beyondskyrim/comments/q17gol/as_beyond_skyrim_roscrea_heads_into_latestage/

r/beyondskyrim - As Beyond Skyrim: Roscrea heads into late-stage de...

209 votes and 9 comments so far on Reddit

Larry i am Sure it wasnt you so tell me that this is odd.

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Oct-21 07:29 AM

it wasn't me

I don't know

Hannes821 11-Oct-21 07:29 AM

I am making freuqent public posts and a few people read it.

I hope this will not happen again, directed at the other mods here.

If someone violates the rules, Sure

But i was putting effort in supporting roscrea Here

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Oct-21 07:31 AM

gonna be honest I haven't checked the reddit for a few weeks

Hannes821 11-Oct-21 07:32 AM

Thats okay. I mean life continues

ub3rman123 11-Oct-21 07:32 AM

Might have been Reddit itself? It's weird about arbitrarily shadowbanning people.

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Oct-21 07:32 AM

that's possible

what did the comment say

Robcbwilson 11-Oct-21 07:32 AM

To be clear, it is not definitely a moderator / administrator

It could well be a glitch

It was a supportive and well thought out comment by Hannes

So would not have needed moderation (I saw it)

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Oct-21 07:33 AM

it might very well have been reddit being reddit in that case

Robcbwilson 11-Oct-21 07:33 AM

Yes, I suspect that is the case as well tbh

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Oct-21 07:33 AM

I can't think of any moderator who would get rid of a harmless comment (edited)

Robcbwilson 11-Oct-21 07:34 AM

Also, it is not logged as a moderation event

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Oct-21 07:34 AM

oh yes good point

Robcbwilson 11-Oct-21 07:35 AM

Every time one of us does something as a moderator it is logged

ub3rman123 11-Oct-21 07:35 AM

Automod logs its removals as well?

Robcbwilson 11-Oct-21 07:35 AM

I checked the log and there was nothing

ub3rman123 11-Oct-21 07:35 AM

I recall we set up some spam filters. New accounts get their stuff removed.

Robcbwilson 11-Oct-21 07:35 AM

Just people

It wasn't automatic as I saw the comment some time after it was posted

Hannes821 11-Oct-21 07:36 AM

Yeah but my Account is years old and known. Well. Yeah. Its odd.

Robcbwilson 11-Oct-21 07:36 AM

It is certainly odd

But Reddit is also odd

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Oct-21 07:37 AM

is this the comment?

https://www.reddit.com/r/beyondskyrim/comments/q17aj1/as_beyond_skyrimroscrea_heads_into_latestage/

r/beyondskyrim - As Beyond Skyrim:Roscrea heads into late-stage dev...

4 votes and 1 comment so far on Reddit

is it possible it was on this thread which looks like it was deleted

Robcbwilson 11-Oct-21 07:38 AM

Yes, that is it

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Oct-21 07:38 AM

that's what it looks like, unless you reposted the comment to the new thread, hannes

Robcbwilson 11-Oct-21 07:38 AM

There we go! Nicely found Larrian

Mystery solved

Larrian (Morrowind) 11-Oct-21 07:38 AM

mystery solved haha

nice

Hannes821 11-Oct-21 08:04 AM

Oh Ehm so what was the issue why we couldnt See it?

The thread was deleted and there was a duplicate?

Did i understand correctly?

Then i am sorry for the confusion and apologize. I didnt expect there to be two posts with the Same content(?)

I Ran through the History of our subreddit and didnt See a duplicate

Ah it appears that User was deleted? And later reposted with a different User?

ub3rman123 11-Oct-21 08:31 AM

When you remove a post from your Reddit account, it changes the user on the original post to [deleted].

Hannes821 11-Oct-21 09:53 AM

oh okay. not so familiar yet, thank you very much.

Robcbwilson 12-Oct-21 12:05 PM

Can I reply to this saying that the money is going to charity?

ub3rman123 12-Oct-21 12:07 PM

Using a smaller fraction of it for a single expense doesn't really invalidate 'sending it to charity' in my head, especially since we've now disabled collecting any more points.

Can probably get it for $16 in the Thanksgiving or Halloween sales.

Bellatrix 12-Oct-21 12:16 PM

I don’t mind what we do but I’m more than happy to buy another copy of Skyrim. 2 team leaders salaries and no kids = insane amounts of disposable income:)

Robcbwilson 12-Oct-21 12:37 PM

I think buying another copy of Skyrim and donating the rest to charity is a good idea

Bellatrix

I don’t mind what we do but I’m more than happy to buy another copy of Skyrim. 2 team leaders salaries and no kids = insane amounts of disposable income:)

LeftoverPat 12-Oct-21 12:46 PM

pay us out while youre at it

but seriously, i have no problem with it either. i've thrown small amounts of money at a few odd things for the AU

Bellatrix 12-Oct-21 12:56 PM

I think I’d prefer that than potentially opening a can of worms but either is fine really.

Hannes821 12-Oct-21 12:58 PM

? i dont follow, using BS as a reason to buy more space in google or gitlab? I mean i pay for the atmora drive (larger than free 15GB) myself.

Bellatrix 12-Oct-21 12:59 PM

Yeah but then it will be so we pay for 3ds max etc.

Or at least that’s where I can see it going.

Hannes821 12-Oct-21 01:00 PM

we cannot buy studio licenses.

we are a hobby community

everyone brings in what they want to

Hannes821 12-Oct-21 01:10 PM

i would love to, dont get me wrong. But we dont have income and we dont have the rights to, and its not something we can do without a huge fuzz, I dont think the leads want that

Bellatrix 12-Oct-21 01:12 PM

Yeah anyway. If someone points me in the direction of where I point my credit card at the appropriate time we’re all good:)

Robcbwilson 12-Oct-21 01:42 PM

This will not be the start of monetisation so let's just buy a copy of Skyrim and donate the rest to charity

Sol 12-Oct-21 08:12 PM

I just received this message? I have no idea what it's about

Has anyone else gotten anything? Because it's obviously to do with BS in some way

Larrian (Morrowind) 12-Oct-21 08:15 PM

I got it as well

Rubaedo 12-Oct-21 08:15 PM

And I

It's strange that they're using my old username as well.

Sol 12-Oct-21 08:17 PM

I have no idea what I'm supposed to be knowing

Meglos (Morrowind) 12-Oct-21 08:17 PM

Same here

Sol 12-Oct-21 08:18 PM

Or what they know, rather

Meglos (Morrowind) 12-Oct-21 08:18 PM

Is it intended to be threatening??? Unless it's some kind of weird joke

Rubaedo 12-Oct-21 08:28 PM

I'd chalk it up to spam were it not for my avatar photoshopped in.

Bellatrix 13-Oct-21 12:50 AM

Oh that’s weird

Robcbwilson 13-Oct-21 08:00 AM

It is oddly specific

Did anyone else get one?

Bellatrix 13-Oct-21 08:05 AM

Presumably not which would just make it BM/MW leads which is particularly creepy.

Klime 13-Oct-21 08:12 AM

I did, exactly the same

Bellatrix 13-Oct-21 08:42 AM

Have all the MW/BM leads been sent one or only the council?

I guess if it’s someone on BS we’ll find out eventually. If there’s one thing I’ve learned from my time here it’s that no one can keep a bit of drama secret:(

Bellatrix

Have all the MW/BM leads been sent one or only the council?

Rubaedo 13-Oct-21 09:57 AM

It looks like it was all the BM and MW councilors, but no one else.

I was hoping to be doing some internal structural work on BM this week, but it looks like that's going to have to be postponed for the sake of... whatever the hell this is.

Bellatrix 13-Oct-21 10:09 AM

What do you want to do about it?

I’m certainly leaning towards ignore it and ask round discretely see if anyone has heard anything?

How much can you snoop on discord? Can we look at IP addresses and see if it comes from the same location as another account?

Robcbwilson 13-Oct-21 10:13 AM

I looked at the person on the Outpost

They have never posted anything (which is unsurprising)

Bellatrix 13-Oct-21 10:13 AM

It’s probably an alt account.

Robcbwilson 13-Oct-21 10:14 AM

Almost certainly

Bellatrix 13-Oct-21 10:14 AM

Other option is to post on our discord that some members have been sent those notes and to let us know if anyone has one (we’re sorry if someone got one and found it distressing) and that we think whoever has done it is an idiot but not name heck who specifically they got sent to. (edited)

Or third option is ‘some creep seems to be targeting BM/MW and just to ignore it if you get one’

Robcbwilson 13-Oct-21 10:35 AM

Not very useful, but it appears that the account was created potentially just for this purpose

Bellatrix 13-Oct-21 12:07 PM

It’s pretty flipping creepy TBH.

Robcbwilson 13-Oct-21 12:11 PM

I agree, creepy and unsettling

Sol 13-Oct-21 12:25 PM

I'm also of the opinion that not much can be done about it. Just something creepy and to be aware of, I guess

Bellatrix 13-Oct-21 12:28 PM

Are we ok to mention it in our lead chats incase anyone else starts getting them?

Happy to go with whatever you want TBH.

Sol 13-Oct-21 12:29 PM

I'm personally fine with it

1

Meglos (Morrowind) 13-Oct-21 12:29 PM

That's probably up to @Rubaedo since it seems targeted at her but I'd be fine with that as well

Sol 13-Oct-21 12:29 PM

^

Bellatrix 13-Oct-21 12:30 PM

@Robcbwilson the courier account has been banned from the outpost hasn’t it? I mean not that it’s going to stop anyone.

Oh. I’ve been on my phone so day. I didn’t realise it was just one name.

I mostly just saw the hand. Well that’s properly messed up.

Rubaedo 13-Oct-21 12:32 PM

My guess, based on harassment I've gotten in the past, is that this is most likely just a big scare tactic meant to confuse and upset us (and myself specifically) rather than a precursor to anything bigger. That said, it'd definitely be worth mentioning to other leads just to be safe imho.

Meglos (Morrowind) 13-Oct-21 12:32 PM

Yeah it's an old username she had and her profile pic faded in the background

Robcbwilson 13-Oct-21 12:32 PM

I can ban them yes

Banned

Spoke to the Elsweyr core

Bellatrix 13-Oct-21 12:39 PM

Oh we should report to dicord too. Not that they do anything but hey ho!

Rubaedo

I was hoping to be doing some internal structural work on BM this week, but it looks like that's going to have to be postponed for the sake of... whatever the hell this is.

Klime 13-Oct-21 02:38 PM

Why is first I'm hearing of this structure work in council chat rather than in one of the BM leads channels

Klime

Why is first I'm hearing of this structure work in council chat rather than in one of the BM leads channels

Rubaedo 13-Oct-21 02:49 PM

I messaged you about it!

You never responded!

LeftoverPat 14-Oct-21 10:22 PM

One 4channer talks smack on BW/MW, the toxic internet community sees it as a way to have their fun. Could be a number of things besides that of course, but p much agree with Sol here. Not much else to do except permaban. If it persists to a terrible amount we could do some sort of extra verification/role process in the outpost but doesn't seem to be there

Bellatrix 17-Oct-21 05:23 AM

So are we ok with me setting up a BS account and buying Skyrim myself?

I can hand the password over to PR then.

Hannes821 17-Oct-21 05:24 AM

Sorry could you quickly explain again why that was necessary? Sorry i forgot the context

Bellatrix 17-Oct-21 05:34 AM

So we can have a Beth.net account.

Hannes821 17-Oct-21 05:36 AM

Ah right

If you want i can participate and send you money

So we Change the Bruma policy that every Team Uploads their own mods?

Or is that only for Public Communication?

Tell me how much you need to pay. If i am Not mistaken we are seven Teams so i give you the seventh Share of your expenses

Bellatrix 17-Oct-21 06:03 AM

It’s more it’s going to be a pain for Beth.net because of how it works. You need a copy of Skyrim linked to your account to do it and whilst we thought it was fine letting 1shoe upload it turns out it wasn’t and so whilst I guess provinces aren’t feee to still do that I really wouldn’t recommend it because you don’t want to end up in the situation we’re in. (edited)

If this is going to take months for you to decide TBH we’ll probably just make a BScyrodiil one because it’s holding up us updating Bruma on x-box. (edited)

Hannes821 17-Oct-21 06:28 AM

Well

You know i am an optimist and i trust you guys. And i personally agree its the best for all of our beloved projects if they do not fully depend on us. Thats just the ratio of responsibility here. Still i think its important we call it what it is, a policy change, to be transparent.

But i believe we should very soon agree on that

One person per project should be able to access for Administration purposes, correct me If you disagree.

That would be what i think we should vote for, and i believe it can be agreed on in 2 3 days.

@Bellatrix would you be fine with that? Maybe PR Team Access already includes most Project responsible persons so that should be a minimalistic Change

I would personally like to polish our content with Jani

Bellatrix 17-Oct-21 06:33 AM

Honestly once I’ve bought Skyrim I don’t care what happens to it. We just need something that’s not 1shoes account to upload the patch to.

And because of what happened last time it’s not going to be a personal account so we can either make a pan BS one or we can make a cyrodiil one. Pan BS seems more sensible cos then you can all use it but if it’s going to turn into a shit show then we’ll just go with a cyrodiil one.

Hannes821 17-Oct-21 06:35 AM

I think cyrodiil is free to go ahead anyway. But i find your suggestion very valuable for all of Bs

I think we would agree given the Minimum Access required for Support

If we want to make it a Pan Bs solution

Bellatrix 17-Oct-21 06:36 AM

We’ll we’re not ‘free to go ahead’ because it’s going to cost money. So I’m not super keen on buying Skyrim for cyrodiil only to find out we can do a BS account instead. AFAIK changing your name on the Bethesda account is difficult.

Robcbwilson 17-Oct-21 06:39 AM

I would be in favour of a pan-BS account we can use to upload things. The password can be shared that way

Hannes821 17-Oct-21 06:39 AM

Sure. A Bs solution would be the best solution

Alright. Shall we vote on it or leave it optional for those who want to join it?

Maybe we Just See If anyone wants to Not be bound by it. Maybe we all want the Same

I am definitively willing to contribute

@everyone we consider to create a Pan Beyond Skyrim Account, to upload content and Communication, and the Password would be shared. Would you for your project participate in the Costs for buying a Copy of sse? Would you be okay with exclusively uploading under our Beyond Skyrim Account? Please Vote 1) thumbs up/down 2) thumbs up/down (edited)

1)

5

2)

3

Robcbwilson 17-Oct-21 06:44 AM

I thought we were using the Nexus money to pay for the copy of Skyrim

Hannes821 17-Oct-21 06:44 AM

Right. But we recieve that only later, after upload, correct?

Hmmm

I mean If you say the money doesnt matter then we ignore 1)

LeftoverPat 17-Oct-21 12:42 PM

If it's a necessary purchase I'll absolutely pitch in but it seems like we can just use bs fund?

Hannes821 18-Oct-21 01:39 AM

If the others dont want to, I will participate in a coalition of those who want to.

*some others

Hannes821 18-Oct-21 01:50 PM

i dont think we need a vote if some projects decide they like the idea and join in, right?

Bellatrix 18-Oct-21 01:53 PM

No. I mean it should be optional even if I think anyone who doesn't is crazy given cyrodiils experience. But honestly I just need something sorting asap. If we can't decide by the weekend we'll do a cyrodiil one

Robcbwilson 18-Oct-21 02:30 PM

Let's just do a pan BS one

Hannes821 18-Oct-21 03:51 PM

Yes

And those that agree may join

Robcbwilson 18-Oct-21 04:00 PM

ub3rman123 19-Oct-21 11:47 AM

We've appointed Garfield Ate My Family as a team lead for IB , could he get the appropriate role here?

Current plan is that he's in Sage's spot for now, and if Sage comes back, I'll be stepping down and he takes my seat.

@Administrator

Meglos (Morrowind) 19-Oct-21 11:49 AM

Yup no problem

Bellatrix 19-Oct-21 12:29 PM

Hello @Garfield Ate My Family!

Garfield Ate My Family 19-Oct-21 01:19 PM

Oh hey! It feels strange having access to the seeecret channel

Robcbwilson 19-Oct-21 02:36 PM

Welcome

LeftoverPat 19-Oct-21 05:38 PM

welcome @Garfield Ate My Family

Hannes821 20-Oct-21 02:49 AM

Welcome welcome

always good to have more active people taking responsibility!

we will give our best to support you, and shoot any questions if you have

1

Sol 20-Oct-21 10:13 PM

Could someone please remove my project lead roles? I've stepped down from BM

LeftoverPat 20-Oct-21 11:29 PM

I believe @Meglos (Morrowind) or @Larrian (Morrowind) have that power

Meglos (Morrowind) 20-Oct-21 11:30 PM

Done

Hannes821 26-Oct-21 10:58 AM

We (as probably last team in BS) now also discuss moving entirely to SSE. I am comparing merging methods and we also discuss making a few entries more compatible to BSAssets in advance and reduce SKSE dependency to optional features.

I do not want to add BSAssets dependency yet as there is no need for it, but compatibility makes sense.

time to move forward

How are things going?

Bellatrix 26-Oct-21 12:20 PM

Works really well for cyrodiil. Roscrea is still on LE. We might be the only ones now?

1

Hannes821 26-Oct-21 01:02 PM

i heard from aaron you have 2 versions now.

which is cool

i was kind of hesitating to let LE go.

but given that the bruma 1.4 udpate really didnt resonate so much in LE

yeah, maybe its not worth the hassle in 2021 anymore

by the way so if we stream MRjGT would have to switch to LE. Pretty sure we soon move to SSE after. However, my dep leads, some do not support showing atmora life in mod con, so we have to decide now and discuss again. (I didnt know the concerns before now, but we will sort it out and decide for the best for atmora)

Bellatrix 26-Oct-21 01:18 PM

The only reason we're sticking with it is cos we said we would.

Hannes821 26-Oct-21 01:30 PM

same, so far.

did BM move to SSE too?

Meglos (Morrowind) 26-Oct-21 03:03 PM

MW is still on LE but we're talking about switching completely as well

1

Robcbwilson 28-Oct-21 02:51 AM

I know there is nothing we can do about it, aside from being vigilant on Social Media. but we have received a few threats / comments about BS being run by pedophiles in the last day

Bellatrix 28-Oct-21 03:27 AM

Thank god we banned Desi. I’m still properly mad she decided to cover up what Tobi was doing.

But it really doesn’t help with stuff like this. ‘No none of it is true, it’s just crazy 4chan conspiracies. We’ll apart from that one lead who discovered someone was doing something like that and decided to cover it but but we banned her so yeah it’s all fine’

Robcbwilson 28-Oct-21 03:30 AM

Yes, there really isn't much we can do about posts like these except remove them

LeftoverPat 28-Oct-21 06:10 AM

It doesn't matter how convinced he is, having the post at all is horrible for PR

Bellatrix 28-Oct-21 06:13 AM

We can’t really stop it but I’m in a proper temper now. The guy has either never played any of our stuff or engaged with our content otherwise he wouldn’t be asking, or he’s a troll who’s doing it for fun. Either way he’s an awful person. (edited)

LeftoverPat 28-Oct-21 06:32 AM

@Robcbwilson did you respond to him?

LeftoverPat

@Robcbwilson did you respond to him?

Robcbwilson 28-Oct-21 06:38 AM

No, the message was not sent to me, it was sent to Garfield

LeftoverPat 28-Oct-21 06:41 AM

@Garfield Ate My Family same q then

some kind of response might avoid a lot of pain for us in the future, even if it's just "Nobody running BS is a pedophile."

Hannes821 28-Oct-21 06:46 AM

Its Just childish bullshit. I cant imagine some people believe such online rants really. Open your mind. It doesnt make Sense. Thats what i wanted to respond

Robcbwilson 28-Oct-21 07:00 AM

I am not sure that responding is the best approach

Bellatrix 28-Oct-21 08:12 AM

I don’t know what the best approach is but if we respond the next question is going to be ‘prove it’ and you can’t prove a negative.

Robcbwilson 28-Oct-21 08:13 AM

This is one of these situations where it is the least bad approach wins

I think that leaving it is the least bad option

LeftoverPat 28-Oct-21 11:08 AM

I see that. His rationale isn't exactly sane.

Bellatrix 28-Oct-21 11:18 AM

Honestly, I’d like to give him a piece of my mind but that would make it a million times worse. It’ll be something to do with the idiots on 4chan and the leak. They’re the only people saying that kind of sick stuff.

Hannes821 28-Oct-21 11:19 AM

Thingy person warned me that Stranger is spreading rumours about me. I have no idea why he would and if its true. Just thought i mention it. I thought he left for military service? anyways.

Robcbwilson 28-Oct-21 11:24 AM

Is there proof of wrongdoing @Hannes821 ?

Hannes821 28-Oct-21 11:24 AM

not.

i literally just had this warning now.

i just say this so, in case something is being said, its thought about twice

i really dont know why he even cares for atmora, nor did i feel we had a personal issue. But if thingy says so, i at first glance believe it

ah nevermind

its probably nothing!

sorry for bothering you

lol. thingie said it was something he wrote 1.5 years ago. he could have said that earlier. okay, missunderstanding.

wow.

i was already wondering, we havent had any unresolved issues or conflicts, i guess he just over-interpretet it

Bellatrix 28-Oct-21 12:35 PM

Why is it that Thingy is involved with every single drama that goes on in BS?

‍♀️

1

Good job this was only a proto drama but why on earth is he telling you about stuff that went on 1.5 years ago?

Hannes821 28-Oct-21 03:16 PM

Hahaha good question, No Idea. The reason was apparently that He Just came Back from military service and posted something on Outpost. I think that - from my short Interactions, some Basic "social noise" is being amplified despite good intentions and originally might be not an issue or at least a resolvable Situation.... Maybe its just a well meant but inproper way to react on stress. But i am guessing here. I have no clue and shouldnt come to quick conclusions, i just believe it was all with good intentions.

LeftoverPat 28-Oct-21 04:50 PM

Thingy is the most resourceful person I know when it comes to BS people and history... sometimes that becomes a curse for him (edited)

LeftoverPat

Thingy is the most resourceful person I know when it comes to BS people and history... sometimes that becomes a curse for him (edited)

Bellatrix 29-Oct-21 10:08 AM

That is a very generous take on someone who’s carried on in a coup attempt against the express advice of the council:)

Hannes821 30-Oct-21 03:08 AM

and the constitutional thing with our charta before? anyways, lets move on, shall we

Bellatrix 31-Oct-21 10:31 AM

Out of nowhere Thingy knows how to change git owners so got rich to change it to me so I now own the BS git

What I think we should do is what we've done for cyrodiil discord and make a dummy account and transfer ownership to that. Then in the unlikely event anything happens to me we already have control of the account.

1

I say we I mean the rest of the council

Robcbwilson 31-Oct-21 11:25 AM

Sounds like a good plan to me

Bellatrix 31-Oct-21 11:30 AM

That's a problem for next weekend then

1

Hannes821 01-Nov-21 03:29 AM

right!

and didnt we want to make a Beth account too? (we whom agreed)

Bellatrix 02-Nov-21 03:39 PM

Can someone @Larrian (Morrowind) ? promote Elscrux. He's the new Cyrodiil co-lead

Also, did you know there's a section of the charter that says co-lead appointments have to be agreed by the whole team ( I assume not cos I've literally never heard anyone o this). Cos thingy does so I've had an interesting evening.

Bellatrix

Can someone @Larrian (Morrowind) ? promote Elscrux. He's the new Cyrodiil co-lead

Meglos (Morrowind) 02-Nov-21 03:41 PM

Done

Robcbwilson 02-Nov-21 03:41 PM

I had no idea, do we really need such a subsection?

Bellatrix 02-Nov-21 03:41 PM

Dunno. Not if no one is following it I guess.

Robcbwilson 02-Nov-21 03:42 PM

Given that before today no one had followed it then I say we just remove it

Of course we would have to vote on it

Bellatrix

Also, did you know there's a section of the charter that says co-lead appointments have to be agreed by the whole team ( I assume not cos I've literally never heard anyone o this). Cos thingy does so I've had an interesting evening.

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Nov-21 03:51 PM

These sort of micro managerial decisions should not be pan BS policy, it should be up to individual teams to decide this sort of thing

So I'd agree with Rob here that we vote to get rid of that

Has it always been part of the charter?

Bellatrix 02-Nov-21 03:53 PM

I assume so? Errm is the one I cut and pasted from DC still pinned. If so we were a bit daft voting to keep something we don't even do

Yep - this is what i copeied from DC for that section

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Nov-21 03:55 PM

Oh man you know it's old when it references forums

ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 03:55 PM

Thought this one was the canon version? https://wiki.beyondskyrim.org/wiki/Beyond_Skyrim_Charter

Beyond Skyrim Charter

Bellatrix 02-Nov-21 03:56 PM

Errm is that not the updated one?

I went back to the g doc I made when we were voting comparing old to new cos I know I copied the old from the archived DC copy

So yeah I guess we should either vote o remove it or start doing it

ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 03:58 PM

The Wiki version doesn't sound like we've got to go poll the whole project membership, more just "take them into account".

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Nov-21 03:58 PM

Yeah

Bellatrix 02-Nov-21 03:58 PM

I went with 'unless anyone objects Elscrux is becoming lead' after thingy pointed it out.

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Nov-21 03:59 PM

And I assume no one objected :P

Bellatrix 02-Nov-21 03:59 PM

I mean wed already discussed it a lot at lead level and TBH we usually do get a curtest buy in for major stuff but I didn't know it was a rule

ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 03:59 PM

On IB we just polled directors, who get to take into account their departments' members in their decision.

Bellatrix 02-Nov-21 04:00 PM

Doesn't really matter if they did as it's major objections and leads get to make binding decision. I mean it would if there were major objections but not one person saying no.

ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 04:00 PM

(and no objections when the announcement was made too)

Bellatrix 02-Nov-21 04:00 PM

Yeah, that's basically what we did but I felt very put on the spot by it!

ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 04:00 PM

If you want to be technical, an existing lead has the power to appoint a co-lead, with no further catches, per the Charter.

Bellatrix 02-Nov-21 04:01 PM

Actually there's no basically about it we discussed it a lot at lead level overthe past few months. It's definitely what we did.

ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 04:01 PM

Team leads have the power to promote co-leads. When appointing a new Co-Lead, Team Leads must: Provide evidence that the member has made a real, substantial, and ongoing contribution to Beyond Skyrim and/or has a high degree of technical or administrative expertise/experience which makes them particularly useful to the project; Provide evidence that the member has a good track record of regularly checking communication and responding when required, and informing of their absences; Consult with the whole of their own team about the suitability of the candidate (this can be either on a formal or informal basis, as long as there is some kind of permanent record).

Okay, no quite.

Bellatrix 02-Nov-21 04:01 PM

Yeah. It's the last bit that we all didn't know about

ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 04:01 PM

Anyways, I'd still say it's a non-issue unless someone had a serious objection.

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Nov-21 04:01 PM

I think it we gotta remember that this was all written before discord

And that whether we like it or not we just don't do things exactly as the charter says in terms of management stuff like this because of it

Bellatrix 02-Nov-21 04:02 PM

TBH I don't know if I overreacted but I just felt quite thrown and undermined by it.

ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 04:03 PM

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2F25603a4cfffb98adb510f2b4c677324e%2Ftenor.gif%3Fitemid%3D10164767&f=1&nofb=1

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only joking please don't expel me

Bellatrix 02-Nov-21 04:03 PM

So thought I'd telly you all about it in-case it comes up. I mean I know IB just appointed a new colead but AFAIK you didn't do this either

ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 04:03 PM

Yeah, just extensive discussion in a directors-only channel.

Since our core/staff channel has a ton of people in it.

Bellatrix 02-Nov-21 04:04 PM

Yeah. That's exactly what we did.

Bellatrix

TBH I don't know if I overreacted but I just felt quite thrown and undermined by it.

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Nov-21 04:06 PM

Nah I would've felt the same way

ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 04:06 PM

I like to think the rest of the team was consulted in spirit by the presence and input of all department directors.

ub3rman123

Yeah, just extensive discussion in a directors-only channel.

Robcbwilson 02-Nov-21 04:07 PM

This is how Elsweyr does it

Meglos (Morrowind) 02-Nov-21 04:07 PM

Considering that department directors are meant to be representatives of their departments and therefore of the whole team, a decision discussed among them and approved by them should be tantamount to consulting the whole team

Robcbwilson 02-Nov-21 04:08 PM

We all seem to agree that it is superfluous shall we vote so we can remove it officially?

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Nov-21 04:08 PM

I'd say so

If we want to amend it to allow some sort of appeal process if enough people are dissatisfied that might work but honestly I think that's also a bit overkill

I think voting to remove is the best call

Robcbwilson 02-Nov-21 04:11 PM

OK, so time to vote everyone. The proposal is to remove "Consult with the whole of their own team about the suitability of the candidate (this can be either on a formal or informal basis, as long as there is some kind of permanent record)." from 4.2.3 @everyone Thumbs up to remove, thumbs down to keep

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ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 04:13 PM

Anything that would need to replace it?

Some basic verbiage on how a lead should be appointed? Probably good to require input from directors at least?

Robcbwilson 02-Nov-21 04:14 PM

I think it covers it already

Provide evidence that the member has made a real, substantial, and ongoing contribution to Beyond Skyrim and/or has a high degree of technical or administrative expertise/experience which makes them particularly useful to the project; Provide evidence that the member has a good track record of regularly checking communication and responding when required, and informing of their absences;

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Nov-21 04:14 PM

We're keeping the rest of that stuff

Just the final passage

Robcbwilson 02-Nov-21 04:15 PM

Yes, just the part in quotes is being removed

ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 04:16 PM

I think the rest of the section is rather vague on to whom the evidence is being provided.

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Nov-21 04:16 PM

Or how it's provided

ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 04:17 PM

new IB appointment method

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Nov-21 04:17 PM

Hahahahahaha

Robcbwilson 02-Nov-21 04:17 PM

We can tighten up the language for the rest of that subsection later on tbh

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Robcbwilson 02-Nov-21 04:27 PM

Best to do things one at a time

Bellatrix 02-Nov-21 04:37 PM

I'm not going to vote tonight because I'm too grumpy but is removing the section right now going to cause a lot of trouble?

Robcbwilson 02-Nov-21 04:42 PM

No, I really don't think so

Although not everyone has voted of course

Larrian (Morrowind) 02-Nov-21 04:44 PM

If it does they'll be kicking up a fuss out of nothing

Robcbwilson 02-Nov-21 04:45 PM

Yes, given that only one person seems to even know that it was in the Charter I don't expect anyone to get upset

Hannes821 02-Nov-21 05:46 PM

the wiki version was the actual effective version

as we did even changes to it

and we did these changes even after thingie motivated us to

but lead appointments are solely an issue of the teams

and not pan bs regulations. always has been.

i am super happy to see Elscrux

very competent and friendly.

Oh, hello Elscrux, already here

congratulations! @Elscrux

ub3rman123

If you want to be technical, an existing lead has the power to appoint a co-lead, with no further catches, per the Charter.

Hannes821 02-Nov-21 05:48 PM

exactly

Elscrux 02-Nov-21 05:49 PM

Thanks

ub3rman123

Click to see attachment 🖼️

Hannes821 02-Nov-21 05:49 PM

lol

we have 8 of eleven, technically it was a vote started prior elscrux joining us

i should contact woni to vote

i contacted him often / frequently but have had a dozen times no reply, i am afraid i lost him to non-activity for bs

i wanted to promote a department lead of my team but the candidates didnt really had too much interest.

i will ask again

ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 06:52 PM

Does @Garfield Ate My Family count for a vote? I guess he'd fall under the same situation.

Hannes821 02-Nov-21 06:56 PM

I dont know i think Garfield was around already before the topic became a question?

ub3rman123 02-Nov-21 07:04 PM

Technically yes, when the question was raised, but it's an identical circumstance.

Bellatrix 03-Nov-21 01:39 AM

Having slept on it I don’t think I can vote as it’s conflict of interest as I was clearly unhappy with it.

Robcbwilson 03-Nov-21 04:06 AM

I have no concerns with Elscrux and Garfield voting as although this is a new issue it involves the Charter which has (at least this section) been around since before most of us joined BS (edited)

Hannes821 03-Nov-21 07:00 AM

we shouldnt overcomplicate things. Teams managed themselves autonomously and i think this sub sentence here is a formality to be removed as fragment which contradicts the rest of our charta and our practice for years

Robcbwilson 03-Nov-21 07:01 AM

I agree, we should remove this sentence (assuming the voting pattern continues)

Subsequent to that, if Ub3r wants to rewrite the rest of the section then that is totally fine

It will also have to be voted on of course

ub3rman123 03-Nov-21 09:30 AM

Fine with removing the line for now, probably later I'd be happy with clarifying the remaining lines to include "department directors" as the subject.

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LeftoverPat 03-Nov-21 01:37 PM

Welcome Elscrux

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Yeah I'd just remove it. In most cases we want to be comprehensive, but stuff like this is better to drop + leave up to team.

Also if Woni is MIA, does that make you sole Atmora lead @Hannes821?

Hannes821 03-Nov-21 01:51 PM

thats probably how it is. But usually we say 6 months MIA ?

last message i had from woni was august i believe

last contribution / in the team was already over a year though

so internally he has a position we had from Tascani before who also went the same route loosing interest in skyrim modding

"former technical director"

(technically not director but permission to stay in management channel and all file access etc)

and no one department lead said they would be interested once again to be promoted thats just the situation we have

certainly its good to have staff that takes responsibility and is motivated

Robcbwilson 03-Nov-21 02:21 PM

We need a couple more votes before we can remove it

Bellatrix chose not to vote which is fine

Elscrux 03-Nov-21 02:31 PM

I'm not 100% sure if I'm allowed to vote on this or not. I was in this chat before the vote started if that is a concern.

Robcbwilson 03-Nov-21 02:33 PM

You are free to vote if you wish as this involves a Charter update rather than an issue that started before you joined

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Hannes821 03-Nov-21 02:41 PM

Why all the people Rob?

Maybe we didnt hear yet woni and Samurai

Robcbwilson 03-Nov-21 02:42 PM

I was showing who has voted

Hannes821 03-Nov-21 02:42 PM

And who Else?

Woni voted

Oh cool

Robcbwilson 03-Nov-21 02:42 PM

So did Samurai

Hannes821 03-Nov-21 02:43 PM

Garfield?

And klime?

Are missing?

Robcbwilson 03-Nov-21 02:47 PM

Rubaedo also

Robcbwilson 03-Nov-21 04:32 PM

OK, we just need @Rubaedo to vote and we will have everyone's vote

1

Larrian (Morrowind) 05-Nov-21 01:15 AM

While we're at it, can we remove heightmap revisions/changes from the charter as well? Both BM and MW changed their heightmaps, and other projects have made major revisions to theirs, and it seems a bit silly to keep that in after the fact

how would we feel about that?

Robcbwilson 05-Nov-21 02:33 AM

First things first, we need to finish off the vote for the current proposed change. We are still missing Rubaedo’s vote (edited)

Larrian (Morrowind) 05-Nov-21 02:51 AM

oh yes

I'll nag her :P

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Rubaedo 05-Nov-21 04:06 AM

Hey sorry, I vote yes

Robcbwilson 05-Nov-21 04:13 AM

Excellent, thank you. So the motion to remove that sentence from the Charter is carried.

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I will update the channel on the Dev server to that effect in a bit

Hannes821 05-Nov-21 04:27 AM

great! let me know if i can help!

and we can move on!

Robcbwilson 05-Nov-21 05:43 AM

Could you update the wiki version?

Hannes821 05-Nov-21 10:41 AM

Sure

Hannes821 05-Nov-21 11:14 AM

Should be Updated

Robcbwilson 05-Nov-21 11:29 AM

Thank you!

Bellatrix 06-Nov-21 01:01 PM

Just a heads up. We’re getting spammed by some guy from the outpost who wants to apply. His application was to duplicate one of the houses in riverwood and claim it as his own. I gather he’s notorious in the outpost. He’s the guy who wanted to apply so he could leak the files. Or joked he did.

Email is Ahmedafnan2005@gmail.com

Meglos (Morrowind) 06-Nov-21 01:08 PM

I'll keep a lookout, thanks

Robcbwilson 06-Nov-21 01:52 PM

His desperation to join Cyrodiil is certainly a red flag

I am going to DM him shortly as the Outpost decision is not to ban him. I am going to tell him not to apply to any other teams

He may well ignore me (wouldn't be the first time)

Elscrux 06-Nov-21 02:02 PM

I already told him not to apply to Cyrodiil anymore in the response for the applications, but this will hopefully spare the other projects from getting his applications.

Robcbwilson 06-Nov-21 02:02 PM

I hope so

Robcbwilson 06-Nov-21 02:21 PM

DM has been sent

Elscrux 07-Nov-21 04:30 AM

Were there any updates regarding the shared Steam account? We were thinking of releasing the final Bruma patch on nexus and bethesda.net on 11/11.

Bellatrix 07-Nov-21 04:40 AM

AFAIK we’re doing it and provinces can either use it or not as they wish.

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Elscrux 07-Nov-21 08:06 AM

We now have a Beyond Skyrim Steam account! Username: Beyond_Skyrim Password:

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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Elscrux 07-Nov-21 08:07 AM

Pinned a message.

Robcbwilson 07-Nov-21 08:07 AM

Amazing, thanks ❤️

Bellatrix 07-Nov-21 08:22 AM

I think I've just sent it a friends request.

Elscrux 07-Nov-21 08:25 AM

It's not showing for me. The account name shown in the community tab is not Beyond_Skyrim but beyond.skyrim

This is a friend code that you can use: 1258960373

Elscrux 07-Nov-21 08:46 AM

it's accepted now

Bellatrix 07-Nov-21 08:57 AM

Should i givt it Skyrim SE?

Elscrux 07-Nov-21 09:04 AM

If that's fine with everyone. I don't know if here were any discussions about that previously.

But if you gift it to the BS account now, we can still sort out who pays how much for it later.

Bellatrix 07-Nov-21 09:37 AM

Roger that. I have to do it in the next few hours or Wednesday so I may as well do it now and come back to a discord of you all yelling at me if that wasn’t what was supposed to happen

Done

Elscrux

We now have a Beyond Skyrim Steam account! Username: Beyond_Skyrim Password:

Hannes821 07-Nov-21 01:01 PM

finally someone did it! great move

i would pay my share if you ask for it!

just tell me how

Elscrux

We now have a Beyond Skyrim Steam account! Username: Beyond_Skyrim Password:

Hannes821 07-Nov-21 01:03 PM

send an invite

although, i thought we would like to have a BETH account?

wasnt it about that for the sake of uploading at their launcher?

Elscrux 07-Nov-21 01:03 PM

We already have a Bethesda.net account. But the bethesda account needs ot be connected to a Steam account in order to upload something

Hannes821 07-Nov-21 01:04 PM

AHA! learned something new again

thanks for the explanation

Elscrux 07-Nov-21 01:04 PM

No problem! Are the login details for the bethesda account in here? If not I'll copy them over

Hannes821 07-Nov-21 01:05 PM

i do not remember seeing them yet.

Elscrux 07-Nov-21 01:05 PM

Okay here it is

Bethesda.net Username: BeyondSkyrim_DC Password:

Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.

Elscrux 07-Nov-21 01:05 PM

Pinned a message.

Hannes821 07-Nov-21 01:05 PM

Great. now we have some more order

Elscrux 08-Nov-21 03:40 PM

There was recently a nexusmods payout, and now there are 43,254 DP which should fully cover the copy of Skyrim SE that @Bellatrix bought

Robcbwilson 08-Nov-21 03:48 PM

Excellent!

That is perfect

The rest can be held and given to a charity

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Elscrux 08-Nov-21 03:49 PM

Uploading to bethesda.net seems to be working now. I didn't test it yet, but the option isn't greyed out anymore.

2

Hannes821 13-Nov-21 12:46 PM

Hey guys. Short question. Do you think Mod Con and calendar is both at the same time feasible?

Robcbwilson 13-Nov-21 05:01 PM

Advent Calendar?

Yes, 100%

Especially early on in December the updates are quite small

LeftoverPat 20-Nov-21 03:22 PM

What happened to Xae? Does anybody have contact? I want ownership over AU YouTube if he's leaving modding

Elscrux 20-Nov-21 03:23 PM

He is taking a break (edited)

LeftoverPat 20-Nov-21 03:24 PM

I would like ownership of the channel regardless

Elscrux 20-Nov-21 03:25 PM

Of course, I don't even know why he owns it. Don't you upload the AU videos usually?

Bellatrix 20-Nov-21 03:27 PM

I think that's a good idea but you might struggle. He's mostly taking a break because of not getting on with me but a large part of that is because he thinks rules are for other people.

I know hindsight is easy but we should really avoid 1 person owning anything. The 1shoe thing hs made me into an absolute zealout about that.

LeftoverPat 20-Nov-21 03:53 PM

I've had good interactions with him but know he is a nightmare. I upload the videos and am manager of channel yes but I can't give JGT perms for mod con because he owns it. I tried contacting him on discord but idk if anyone here is on closer terms

Bellatrix 20-Nov-21 03:54 PM

Linton is but he's not around either. Aprt from that I'm not really sure.

I guess linton might be around for a 1:1 DM even if he's not currently active.

LeftoverPat 20-Nov-21 03:55 PM

I could prob dig up his email. Yeah I could message lint too

Bellatrix

I think that's a good idea but you might struggle. He's mostly taking a break because of not getting on with me but a large part of that is because he thinks rules are for other people.

Hannes821 20-Nov-21 06:14 PM

i pointed out in the past that he was having a negative attitude for council and rules multiple times. When he was like "either i do the website or noone does". sorry to bring that up, but its not really a suprise. Also he didnt ever feel like uploading our subtitles or other stuff that is not on his personal agenda.

still, of course, he is a nice guy and did good work

so, thats that

LeftoverPat 20-Nov-21 09:33 PM

well i have access to the website too now if anyone else needs. seems like hes just being a spoil sport

Robcbwilson 21-Nov-21 03:12 AM

I have always had access to the website aside from areas he locked off (banner etc)

Robcbwilson 22-Nov-21 01:13 PM

Just so everyone is aware, I am changing the BS Gmail phone number to mine (from Xae's)

It is rather annoying that it insists on it having a phone number, but it is what it is

Hannes821 22-Nov-21 04:49 PM

at least we know its in good hands!

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